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tv   Conflict Zone  Deutsche Welle  October 31, 2019 1:30pm-2:01pm CET

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you know my grandchildren were born after the war for 40. 3 generations. on a journey through recent german history that. starts number 6 on d w. 0 information silence it's hard not to see this is a blatant cover up why the silence by the media in the me we are facing an undeclared war from across the western border it's just 3 months since india decided that it all had to change in kashmir it tore up the region's special status and imposed direct rule from delhi thousands of people were arrested and a communications blackout imposed my guest this week here in london is jade pond national vice president and one of the chief spokesman of the ruling b.j.
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team obviously also the charges of widespread human rights violations in kashmir that are reported to be continuing to this day. she found a welcome. thank you a month before your government imposed lockdown in kashmir the un's chief human rights official issued a report examining the state of human rights in the region between may 2800 and april this year it claimed that in that 12 month period the number of civilian casualties and around $160.00 with thought to be in the highest in more than a decade and it says $71.00 of them have been victims of india's security forces the un says you have a poor record of investigating such killings what is the 1st of all i think it's wrong to call it a lockdown. people in german kashmir are free to move around the visit other parts
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of india people from other parts are not your thousands of arrested. let me tell you i'm free to do anything let me come to the detention part 99 percent of the area of jammu and kashmir does not have any restraints now regarding the human rights issues there are 42000 people that have been killed in german kashmir because of terrorists operating with the support of a country to our west and this doesn't get adequate attention and the people who were shot by indian forces by the way indian forces have not killed any civilians in the recent past the people who are carrying a k 47 s. the people who are carrying grenades are terrorists mr pounder 3 years ago 20165 investigations were launched by your government to exchange judicial executions but to this day no information has been received why would that be the indian government takes very seriously any such allegations and while there may have been mistakes decades ago about 2016 yes but i'm talking about not just 2016 but if you
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just deal with this particular incident because 3 years old not only is there no verdict in any of these cases there's no way of knowing if the investigations are still going on or being part indefinitely in a plan i think is going to be part indefinitely 0 information they are going verdicts on other similar allegations and there will be verdicts in these cases as well when are you going to take over the judicial process has a way to go through and you cannot expect. arbitrary decisions so why the silence why the complete silence about whether the investigation is still ongoing well i mean 0 information silence it's hard not to see this is a blatant cover up why the silence by the media about the 42000 people that are being killed that have been killed why the side and i don't answer for the media well i mean you are the people i meet your part of the media and listen i'm sitting here questioning you and you have an opportunity to talk about and i'm trying to find i'm trying to your point the point is you must see the larger picture. amp's
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i've said very openly that wherever their asset allocations there have been verdicts in other cases and there will be verdicts based on justice the un report speaks of arbitrary tension and so-called cordon and search operations that have led to a range of human rights violations and it says that accountability for violations committed by members of the indian security forces remains virtually known existence was their words virtually nonexistent that's a shocking record well 1st of all i disagree with that but this seems to be blindingly oblivious to the larger problem of terrorism that is emanating with support from across the border so i know you would like to widen the discussion out away from india's was it's not a way a lot of the problem you know that there isn't any of the tension that is given even what how do you how the money will be hilled is not a problem 42000 people have been killed without problem we're talking about india's response i'm talking about and you want to you want to widen issue i mention the
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major block on the culpability has been the armed forces special powers act hasn't i can just i just prevented your security forces being prosecuted without government permission ok so i think that's a great question allow me to finish my answer the the armed forces special provision act has been removed in the state of puerto it has been removed in the state of meghalaya it has been partially removed in the state of natural provision why because the situation the security situation has improved in general in kashmir we are facing an undeclared war from across the western border and this is not getting adequate attention you need to focus on that service of politicians who decide and have done for almost 30 years where the cases involving security forces in general kashmir can even be heard by the courts is a do as you please lord isn't it we armed forces get away with everything the world's largest democracy decisions are not taken by individuals there's a parliament that's elected by an electorate of 900000000 people there are checks and balances in place. uncertain that the after hour has been removed in more than
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to see how forces special powers are yes i love the un special rapporteur action judicial killings kristoff high and said in the past retaining such a law as this runs counter to the principles of democracy and human rights not when you have a war like situation and i'm telling you here that it's being removed where the situation is normalizing and you must recognize little or german kashmir yes and india the situation is in transition it will get normalized look i think the wider situation that you don't want to talk about is important for your viewers to understand all of those things that you are responsible for how many times has the central government allowed a prosecution of armed forces for alleged human rights abuses in civilian courts over the last 30 years 3 decades how many times as the government allowed a prosecution you know the armed forces have their own court martial process and that has that that's there in every democracy not just in india how many times have
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armed forces personnel been prosecuted for alleged human rights for several times how many come in and i don't have a number. the fact is that according to you and no singleton 1000000 was not one prosecution of armed forces personnel was granted by sitting indian court in a civilian court so in the world is meant to believe that without exception over 3 decades every single member of the security forces behaved like angels no i think you are being blindingly oblivious or deliberately trying to obfuscate that the armed forces special provision act is in in force in jammu and kashmir and that is because of a war like situation which is why military courts deal with such allegations and you must recognize this is the 3rd time i am pointing out that this is not something that is unilaterally decided by an individual or by an unaccountable government and it has been removed in states where the situation has improved it will in future be removed in germany what about the use of metal pellets in german
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kashmir in this last report the un spoke of alarming numbers of deaths and life changing injuries caused by your security forces use of shotguns firing metal pellets children have been among the victims the stone throwers that you have been referring to have in the past used to be many decades ago responded with riot responses involving bullets so that was scaled down to go down to pellets which is far less deadly rather than use guns and among those stone throwers you plant a 19 month old girl who was shot in her right arm no girl in 1900 target forces you know that's a very unfair thing to say you must also refer to all those videos of indian forces behaving with great forbearance against enormous attacks deadly attacks with stones and bottles and these are organized riots these are funded by terrorist organizations recognized by the united nations you must also shed light on them
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according to the main hospital in kashmir that treats such injuries served as sri maharajah hospital. 1253 people have been blinded by metal pilots 5 biosecurity services just in 2 and a half year period from mid twenty's 60 up until the end of last year 1253 people now sightless now steps have been taken to further reduce the kind of measures being taken to control such attacks what does that really force leisure's what it means whereas earlier thousands of people used to be at risk because of firing of real bullets it came down to using pellets and today even that is used only in the rarest of rare circumstances government data from 2017 showed the weapon killed 13 people and injured more than 6000 in 8 months and the nearly 800 people sustained injuries knowing those risks and those statistics inescapable conclusion is that your forces intended to cause those injuries didn't know our forces intended to
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maintain peace and law and order and you know you can't keep. focusing only on specific casualties without looking at the war like situation that we are facing and it is important to recognize that the current situation that has developed in kashmir since august is that an article which was the only article called temporary in our constitution has been diluted and this is creating a lot of misguided communications internationally where there's article 370 provided shelter to all kinds of horrible things it did not allow 106 indian laws passed by parliament and the supreme court rulings to apply in kashmir including your rights including women's rights including of minority going slightly of the subjects. it's amazing to me i talk about 253 people who sightless and you talk about their d.p.t.
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right somewhere else in the don't talk to them as if you do not own i'm not you don't even know where i'm right ok but do you not care about these 2 of those really 3 people who have. i care about the 42000 people that have been killed so why are there no apologies why then the apologies for these blind it is right you know we dress a little this is regrettable when any such injury takes place but this is actually a scaling down of the kind of violence the real stress in the courts why no apologies there will be there will be when there will be action in the courts no proper compensation for these people of course there will be compensation really anybody is yes of course there will be let's talk about what happened in august. whatever the reasons for the indians action crease curity threats smuggling etc by the uses of resources it became an excuse for a large number of arrests and detentions that continue to this day on what grounds were some 4000 people 'd deprived of their liberty in fact we need to continue to
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this day there have been releases taking place if you know 1000 people it's important to understand something that this is an unfinished part of the indian independence struggle and partition because when partition happened imposed by the british it happened with a certain set of circumstances and similar restraints were put into place in the punjab in drag just done in good rock the point is when these restrictions were put also in places like bengal and a stamp it was because tens of thousands of people were killed in the partition violence now right now this restraints have been put into place because we had a choice of either having temporary restraints or permanent loss of lives you haven't told me what these people had done 4000 people in german kashmir after your ogust. changes if you like in the status of kashmir why 4000 people were detained you haven't told me why i don't know that it is 4000 but i will tell you that if the same detentions had happened in 104748 which we believe should have happened
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then we would have been integrated to india so you don't you don't know why these people know i do know why these people many of them have gone. on the record questioning the constitution of india questioning the law allowed to question anyone they are allowed to question but they're not allowed to take arms they are not allowed to smuggle arms and drugs they're not allowed to indulge in money laundering to fund the likes of. and the likes of jascha in muhammad which are operating from pakistan and sending in jihad which had been to kill in india a month after the operation the supreme court had to step in and tell your government to get on with restoring normal life as soon as possible with one of the judges shared arvind bob the pulling the situation a terrible state of affairs so in the words of one of your own supreme court judges created a terrible state and you're not feeling the full story here so the supreme court is indeed hearing petitions regarding german kashmir but already restrictions had been
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removed gradually from after the 1st 24 hours what the judge said is that they should continue and the judge did not grant relief to the people who wanted these detentions to be taken away right away because of the security situation so yes indeed this restraint must be removed they are being removed and it is a process a court even had to order the authorities to transfer the sick leader of the communist party to hospital in delhi because nobody was allowed to go in or out of his house not so they had to order basic humanitarian protection or through that a misrepresentation some people trying to misrepresent this because he was allowed to to be shifted to hospital there was a delay because of certain technicalities why is the among those who held why is the former chief minister for okinawan is now in his eighty's of being detained what kind of threat does he represent to the government of india is this with due respect to mr abdullah with whom i have also served in parliament he did go around
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making very incendiary statements when article 370 was diluted now we have had a situation where people have. on the surface pledged allegiance to the indian constitution but have straddled the ground which flirts with separatists which flirts with terrorists who are operating from across the border and a lot of these separatists their own children aren't they don't have any skin in the game they don't live abroad here in the u.k. and in the us it's. really also rested his daughter sister who was simply holding up placards in the street no they were released the point is this 99 percent of the area of jammu and kashmir today has no restraints and this has gradually been eased over the past 10 or 11 weeks now at
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a certain point when more areas had certain restraints yes public events were prohibited because of the law and order issue. amnesty international's reports that the lawyers and family members of the detainees are not informed of the grounds of the arrest no even the whereabouts of their clients and relatives how can that be right to chrissie when you have a war like situation the law that has been in place there allows for a certain period of detention now talking about the public safety act most of the prominent leaders are not kept in jail they are kept in guest houses with security measures. as i keep repeating something we had a choice the indian state had a choice between temporary restraints and permanent loss of lives and you must recognize it's only fair to point out that in these last 11 weeks a large number of these restraints have been actually removed but lawyers and family members are not informed of the grounds of the arrest nor even the
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whereabouts of their clients and relatives i come back to that question they will i wish that i was that allowed to look or see that that is allowed by the public safety act passed by the former state of jammu and kashmir for a certain period it's not indefinite it's for a limited period but it's important to point out that the other restraints that you have referred to for example initially phone lines were not allowed today not only are landlines but all post-paid cell phone lines are already functional. well well of origin. so as of yesterday group of you members of parliament are visiting the moon privately for them so that's ok most members are polymaths in delhi have not been most members of parliament when they travel to other countries and i personally led many such delegations do indeed travel privately and not as official representatives of their legislatures. mr pound b.g.p. doesn't like criticism one of one of your rising political stars just we saw here
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captured the mood of the party in the recent election when he produced a video proclaimed if you are with modi you are with india and if you are not with modi you are anti india do you buy into that you know the reality is mr modi is extremely popular and i think you would find poll after poll like surveys have pointed out that nearly 3 fourths of the indian population is with mr modi so he's technically correct 40 percent of the population today i'm sorry 40 percent of the vote in the recent election that's because of our reporting system of the parliamentary system which we have inherited from this country if we had a presidential election things might be quite different whether you approve of that slogan i said he's technically correct that the you know the people surveys show that 3 fourths of the people of india are with mr modi so he's right but i want not if i am not willing anti india is that is that you position your anti india if you
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are not with modi no it's possible for a different party or l.t. and let me point out it's of course possible to be against mr modi and still not be anti india but sadly many people in the opposition have taken a stance or made comments which are being used by terrorist organizations which are being used by the government of pakistan which is indeed anti india so if those people self identify as being both against mr modi and also anti india then that's their own choice it's not just pakistan terrorists who are criticizing the position of your government is it your your ruling party is said to have instilled a climate of fear something of which the world renowned and respected indian academic marty has sent highlighted recently in the interview he said people were scared of your government i've never seen this before he added when someone says something critical of the government on the phone with me they said. i better talk about it when i see you because i'm sure they're listening to this conversation
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that's not a way to run a democracy he says it's also not a way of understanding what the majority wants so always he and witty india now why don't i answer that with due respect to professor emeritus and he has an unstinted record of making such statements against the b.g.p. and against prime minister more the i think a better alternative to look at would be the latest indian economics nobel laureate which is a bit banner g. who has a balanced track record of both criticising some of the steps taken by our government as well as supporting some of the deep seated reforms that the more the government is embarking on. but there are plenty of examples where you've been squeezing the space for free speech up but you know that's not true really that's not true because we hear this week after week when people claim that the right to free speech is being squeezed and where do we hear this we hear this in television debates we hear this in newspaper columns and we hear this online statement we hear
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this in public protests in india that's what i don't hear if you think freedom house is the latest report which says that despite a vibrant media indian journalists risk harris meant death threats and physical violence in connection with their work such attacks are rarely published in some taking place with the complicity or active participation of police. i think it is shameful whenever any journalist is attacked indeed there have been some attacks and maybe there are people complicit at the lower level but prosecutions do happen to happen and i can you know i can tell you very 'd comprehensively it is not the indian state it is not the indian government and it is not the b.g.p. which condones this what is telling is the latest annual crime report which is more than a year late leaves out some rather important categories like attacks on journalists nothing about human rights violations by security forces or attacks by vigilantes
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when asked about these gaps your home affairs ministry said the data for these categories had been withheld because it was unreliable and prone to mis interpretation that's pretty heavy handed censorship no it isn't censorship let me explain we have had a few cases of despicable vigilantism but somehow one section tries to portray it as if it's only about protection it's not we've unfortunately had vigilantism of people who are suspected child abductors of people who are peeves and when. mainstream media outlets. try to portray all of them as only one kind of vigilantism it shows that they have an edge enda and that needs to be desegregated so you don't put up the figures in case people might just draw the wrong not just for might that that's what that's what not just might this censorship allow people
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to make up their own minds so commentator under i'm going to happen and i think you would do well to look into the research that he has put up is that mainstream newspapers have tried to pass off as coverage of entities and all kinds of violence that has taken place and they try to portray only one kind of violence they don't portray another kind of violence that actively try to suppress it with an agenda so it i think for yourself 1st needs to know the truth needs to come out it does not serve anyone's purpose to miscategorized one kind of violence as another kind mr pounder 6 years ago long before you joined the b j p complain that criminalise edition of politics in india had become a sad reality you wrote then getting elected has become a convenient shield to delay the legal processes and escape conviction why has your party done nothing about the large number of indicted people sitting in parliament in fact it's actually got worse in fact my party has done a lot by the way so why the fact is worse literally were when you wrote there
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aren't words actually let me let me let me explain so this is not a new thing we've had the criminalization of indian politics going back to several decades into the late sixty's and early seventy's prime minister modi has repeatedly called for fast track courts to expedite the trials of elected officials the right offer and you don't have them know. this our judicial system requires you know it's not just that government can push through these things so we need to shield reforms and that is something that not just i but many in our party led by the prime minister himself are campaigning let me just correct what you said you said the figures were. and worse the association for democratic reform compared the numbers of indicted l.p.s. elected to the lower house in the last 2 general elections and the increase has been spectacular 201434 percent of them face declared criminal cases by 2019 has it increased by almost 10 percent to 43 percent the proportion of those facing serious
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charges have also shot up from 21 to 29 percent so you obviously are not aware of the loads no i am aware i think you are not aware of something else several employees have been disqualified from parliament because of getting convicted this was of the result of the campaign that many of us carried on now regarding those who have allegations against them you call them in day comments we have our system is a little more complex it's taken from the british for many decades the goal of the election commission has got tighter and tighter and forcing declarations earlier many of these facts were not being declared so i don't think there has been actually an increase of criminal m.p.'s it has in fact been a decrease well that's your supposition but that's not that's not my that's what it does not borne out are you not aware you're not but are you not aware that the election commission has in fact imposed more stringent guidelines for declarations of any charges being faced by people contesting elections so it sounds like it
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should have done jaipur thank you very much for being on conference.
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the but. this is the news a line from the end dozens die in a train inferno and pakistan doesn't just see a stove but as a breakfast was being prepared on the moving train me get the latest from islamabad . orsa coming up fears of violence in hong kong a small pro-democracy protests take place police have fired tear gas in a densely populated district of kahlua and away from demonstrations taking place elsewhere in on kong and.


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