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tv   Conflict Zone  Deutsche Welle  November 30, 2019 5:30pm-6:01pm CET

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with tradition and strike out on their own. 60 minutes w. . take personally your wedding with wonderful. make the dream so special. for all true for. more than for online. but you do it in the west it's for public order then to do it it's a pressure ok the part of the take this any further you cannot fight one terrorist organization with another turkey has outraged many of its allies and partners with its military operations in syria and the whole council log of human rights violations against its own people my guest this week here at the foreign policy forum in berlin is turkey's presidential spokesman abraham collins how does he
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justify his country's highly controversial policies. and abroad. in cali welcome to comfort zone thank you let's start with mr hodder once trip to washington a couple of weeks ago. he went to change minds to change influential minds in the united states to talk about the justification for your military action in syria but he appears to have failed to change those minds comprehensively what about happen do you think but for us to visit went well actually we have a good relationship with a trumpet ministrations some people that the congress will be with trump rather than the ministration you know well if you want to make that distinction that's for domestic american public. to comment about but obviously some people in the
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congress have a different view the ones he hoped to influence had a different in our president made a very clear case actually for why we went in there because our goal has been to clear our border with syria from more terrorists elements for a better isis or p.k. related groups but they weren't buying it were they well i think their meeting members of the republican party senator lindsey graham for instance chairman of the senate judiciary committee he seems to have particularly angered your president by talking about the military action as an invasion but what did you expect while he got his answer obviously our president told him very clearly that he cannot call turkey an invader but the president also got his answer didn't he said the reason it's an invasion this is lindsey graham the reason it's an invasion is that's exactly what you did i warned you not to do it and everything that i was worried about came through in spades but it is senator graham who said a couple of years ago to ask quarter and then the defense minister of the united
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states that p.k. is the same as p y d y p g p y d y p g in syria is the p.k. he is the one he said this on record now he's changed his position it's not for me to comment on his flip flopping on this issues but we have had a very clear policy line on this issue we do not want to see any terrorist element taking over piece of land rolling over people in syria whether by k.k.k. or isis or al qaida or any other groups and you have according to the pentagon that's exactly the effect of what you've done the pentagon said just a week ago quotes quoting information from the defense intelligence agency the terrorist organization that talking about isis exploited the turkish incursion and movement of u.s. forces to reconstitute capabilities and resources within syria and strengthen its ability to plan attacks abroad that's exactly what you didn't want to happen isn't it well to the contrary actually it was p y the y p g in. that release about $800.00 isis. terrorist in prison president from spoke to our president about what
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he is going to do about the isis prisoners on our president said very clearly on that phone call that we will take care of them that is we will keep them locked up we will not release them we will try them we will try to return them to their countries of origin and this is what we did but it was by p.g.p. why did that release them from prison in and they know this that's on the record eminently foreseeable that that would happen why will they did that and this why did why did why this is the result but why did why p.g. did that 4 of 4 before the q. any connection well what's the answer the answer is that p. y d y p g wants to use isis actually as a bargaining chip in the eyes of the west telling them that you know without p y d y p g the fight against isis will be successful they need p y d y p g on the ground to fight isis and be argued to the contrary from the very beginning you cannot fight one terrorist organization with another one you cannot
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fight isis with the p.k. k. by the fear factor is that 6 months down the line isis in a much stronger position what are you going to do just say sorry feel military action we fought against isis in the jobless area with your face to shield operation we have eliminated more than 3000 isis terrorists v have about 1200 isis prisoners in turkey more than half of them are international citizens some are turkish we are keeping them in prison we are not releasing them we are going after all isis elements if you look at the turkish syrian border which is about 911 kilometers all the way from the iraqi border there is not a single isis element present in that strip of land you have cleared our border from the isis in fact we made this case to president obama before he decided or when he decided to support p y d y p g in the fight against isis we told them look you don't need p y d to fight against isis we can do this with the national elements in syria we can do it with the turkish army. ok you don't want we don't need to have u.s.
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troops on the ground but you can provide air support ok and you can take care of isis they did on the island let me let me just go back to your justification for this operation that you have a right to make your border area safe from terrorism to force militant kurdish groups p y v y p g out of this so-called terror corridor all but very few countries are buying this and if the job of a presidential spokesman is to sell the president's line you're not having much success. you look at the us ambassador james jeffrey the state department's point man on syria he said turkey launched this operation despite our objections undermining the isis campaign risking endangering and displacing civilians destroying civilian infrastructure and threatening the security of the area that's not much of an accolade there's none of that happened actually they claim he doesn't know what he's talking about well that's not what he told us in our meetings i've had many meetings with jim he's a good friend and of course as professionals we worked on this issues together he
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may be a good friend percy now great narendra none of those ranges that you actually came true if you look at they said that there will be a huge humanitarian crisis with the turkish military operation it didn't happen people went back to their homes they said that kurds will be attacked no kurds were attacked except p y d y p g terrorists on the ground they said christian minorities will be oppressed or killed none of that happened in fact it was our military that. just recently i only unchurched a plane. now their version of peacefully in russell and i'm talking about the army and church there so all the things that you none of them have dial a sions that they said would happen and have happened happened where where exactly give me some examples ambassador jeffrey interest and bastard jeffrey again gave you examples he said we would say that turkish supported syrian opposition forces who were under general turkish command and at least one instance did carry out a war crime and we've demanded an explanation. you claimed you claimed
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a number of investigations were underway trying to human rights abuses are you asking me about something you already know how many investigations by the way and by whom and number of investigation by our military have been launched how many mr kalam how many some of them are operational details are rather not you can tell me if there are any now writes probably us all to find out knowing as a good journalist you don't know and you don't know why it's just a blanket excuses in this look if you look at the civilian casualties in the syrian war. can you guess how many people how many civilians have died in the operation in iraq or. make a guess we're not talking about no you're talking about syria those are talking about syrian civilians severely talking about writers human rights violations around 3000 civilian people died in iraq or. the city of raka was destroyed level to the ground around a 1000 people civilians were killed in the resort and in mosul again in the fight
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against isis if you're going to talk about all this i think we should be very candid and clear about this issue and it would be nice to me to 11 your hours in your very early age worry about your rights invest in young $9.00 to $11.00 so you very very here in the fight against isis in mosul along how many civilians have been killed in our operation mr cowan you don't have a great record on investigating human rights violations to so why should things be different now in 2016 the un committee against torture cited credible reports of turkish law enforcement officials in gauging in torture and treatment of detainees the committee said it was concerned at the reported impunity enjoyed by those who committed such acts impunity doesn't suggest you are doing much investigation into those things does it we have a 0 tolerance policy towards torture we have in fact cleared our prisons our judicial system for torture we've had this in the past but what you refer. turning
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to is what happened right after the bloody coup attempt on july 15th 2016 when the fetter terrorists carry that equipment in turkey killing 251 people a dozen wives and suter tortured people i didn't say there is torture i'm not saying this to justify i'm referring to those who made those claims who were actually behind this quit killing 251 people injuring about 1200 people they had the intent to kill the elected president of turkey the reports mr kalin go on and on 2 years ago the ngo freedom from torture said that from 2011 to 2016 all the years were missed the one in the k.p. have been in power turkey was one of the top 10 countries for referrals after torture and in 2016 you moved into the top 5 no known investigations were ever carried out in a number of investigations have been carried dominated we have how many and by whom you want to say 203040. well i can give you what you will detail i'd like the truth
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i will i can i will be had like usually exact numbers i don't have the reports written i'll be happy to send them to you in 2070 in the council of europe's commissioner for human rights said the problem of effective investigations and impunity of security forces is a very longstanding and entrenched problem in turkey so you're not fooling anyone you know is talk of if you're not in your business falling anyone we're taking care of our own national security then you face this kind of credible national security threats against the p.k. k. or from the p.k. here from isis terrorist from fetter terrorists those terrorist organizations in the west only recognize as one of them that is isis because it attacks western interests but the others since they are only in turkey and attacking turkey the elected government security forces or the civilians nobody wants to talk about it mr kerry and you sent in last month you sent in your syrian proxy forces into the
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northeast corridor of the country knowing that in all likelihood they would torture abuse and possibly murder people because that's exactly what they had done in the northern city of africa which you seized interview 18 isn't it not at all in august that year amnesty international reported you gave free rein to syrian groups armed by you to commit serious human rights abuses in africa that didn't happen in our friend there was looting enough and they were penalized but it's the same group by the way you're talking about the syrians themselves fighting for their own freedom for their own country against the brutality of this sort of regime to which the western world has now turned a blind eye we are the only ones actually taking care of millions of refugees and the syrians in both turkey and on the syrian side is the same syrian national army which the americans supported or plumbs to support 5 years ago 6 years ago they changed their policy in the course of time is the same syrian people who fought against the assad forces in the in the perry. when they fought against assad and
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isis in that area everybody applauded them what's the situation when it came to when they came to p y the y p g held areas suddenly the air changed they said well there are terrorists they are jihadists they are the same people who fought in that everybody is thankful to turkey for keeping things under control in italy because we've prevented another maybe i don't see. much gratitude coming your way at the moment or basically taking care of about 7000000 syrian refugees for the last 45 years we are preventing another major humanitarian crisis and other migration for from there i know that doing more than anyone else like we do you know what the situation in africa is now it's very it's very calm no there is no very calm ok there is no ice is there is no p.y.t. there much of what you are saying you know. you say journalists and you say it's very comfortable in syria you say it's really going out there another set of the reason they are upset about often they lost a big chunk of land if you ask the origin of kurdish people living enough and this
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is about 400000 in africa and ask them how they are being treated now compared to how they were treated under p y d y peter control 2 months ago the un human want to ask around that question to months ago the un human rights of this report is the situation in africa contrary to your nice assurances remained dire armed factions have carved up the province into zones of influence there was repeated kidnappings torture extortion and assassination that some legacy you left behind doesn't it no look condy have created our assurance p y d y p g terrorists which are the marxist leninist leftist group which is supported by all the freedom loving liberal western countries including the trumpet mr ation which is really mind boggling for me that the united states will stop. a marxist
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leninist organization in syria in the name of fighting against isis what's baffling to them is that you have your forces on the ground according to william roebuck who's the top state department official in northern syria your forces have committed abuses on the ground war crimes and ethnic cleansing he said on november the 7th turkey's military operations spearheaded by armed islamist groups on its payroll represents an intention laced effort at ethnic cleansing it was he added an unprovoked military operation that at the time he spoke november 7th had killed some 200 civilians and left over 800000 people newly displaced and homeless he heard this many times from the centcom people within the trumpet ministration which actually never again you just themselves are reconciled with the fact that we are taking this action against their so-called allies you want to replicate. you want them to recognize they are reconciling themselves with the p k k terrorist network
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in syria giving them piece of land and then while at the same time talking about serious territorial integrity or ethnic balance in syria how can you explain the fact that you favor one ethnic group which is linked to a p k k terrorist network the so-called kurds against all the arab kurdish non-peak . the arabs the christians the turkoman all the others syria as they are coming to us telling us the oppression that they are living under under the by p.g. mr callan we've talked about some of the criticism of your actions especially from our allies but what you really want to stamp out is criticism at home isn't it on october 10th your broadcast regulator. in the turkish media not to say anything critical about your action in turkey that there would be as they put it is 0 tolerance of any broadcasting that might negatively impact the morale and motivation of soldiers or may. they mislead citizens through incomplete falsified
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or partial information that serves the aims of terror in other words you put it anything that the government doesn't like and you're in deep trouble so much for press freedom while you kind of freedom that media outlets in turkey the only a lot of them you've closed down on the internet you have all kinds of different views attacking the president every single day attacking me and us that's why in the 1st week of the offensive you closed down 839 social media accounts for sharing as you put it criminal content 186 people were taken in and they were cheering for indicating 24 reminded every trial the terrorist propaganda you would an alarm going to be proof of that have you you wouldn't allow that in the u.k. when you do it in the west it's for public order remember do it it's suppression since the 2016 coup attempt 180 media outlets have been forcibly closed over 220000 websites blocked according to the ngo article 19 in september said scores of
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journalists remain in jail or the travel bans hardly a proud record for you is it here but you are dealing with news outlets that are spreading propaganda for the terrorists network when you are dealing with a terrorist that carried out that attempt on july 15th yes they had the media empire another now that the media empire in turkey you fling around reason fetter evil i'm talking every hour on these accusation xperia 3 money actually to spread their propaganda now unfortunately they have a free reign free right here in western capitals they're all over the place according to the germany's own committee for the protection of the constitution the presence of the p.k. k. in germany alone i have the full report here that's in german i'm sure our german colleagues will know about this you won't mind if we now go through it this is not our report by this is germany's on on official report in fact when president bush than meyer came to turkey when he was foreign minister about 2 years. well i think
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our pro president presented this report to him as well said look this is your own report ok dollars will take us any further you know what it doesn't take what he says is that you're giving a free right here in germany why do you do that and as far as they are not doing that in turkey as far as the west is concerned this was a report from a british parliamentary committee back in 2017 there is a fundamental intolerance of alternative narratives in turkey with the government broadly suppressing discrediting or punishing those who contradict its accounts of sensitive events look there are journalists who do their job. they are free to report have critical comment nobody has any problem with that there are those who spread propaganda who use actually id cards press courts but function as p.k. operatives who are and those are people who used to get to extreme conditions in your prison like ahmed sheikh for instance from jim hooley at newspaper really he were reported to have been the end result actually solitary resilin fine by the
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good men is in the 1st place he was put in prison by the glenister so that makes it all right now the non-elected members know what i'm saying this is this is the extent of the power that these people had in turkey we are clearing them from the media out that from the judiciary from the police for delivering your cleaning you don't have anything against him no no no i'm talking about the defector people that had in fact the judiciary did the security forces in their hands and now we are for clearing them most of the things that you're referring to in fact is a reference to this people i'm referring also to what the e.u. commission in its latest report called the backsliding on human rights backsliding in a number of areas affecting human rights it says your accession negotiations have affectively come to a standstill it's time to end this isn't it because you have no intention of meeting the conditions for membership that have been set down by the have you ever promised to be a full member in the european union many many many times and then you violated human
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rights left right isn't and we've been made waiting since 6263 or fish really because an official date in 2004 and 5 it was our president president edwin actually who put so much political capital into this and we were presented with a package of 36 chapters no candidate member was ever presented with this many chapters and then what happened 15 years later we open only one chapter close only one chapter i'm not even here saying like you say you're the victim here you like to play the victim the victim of what bias against turkey i don't see myself as a victim i'm just stake. the fact look there is an enlargement process or fatigue in europe and there are creations to be met they want they don't want to and you don't need spend the kal and there you go me go she asian fatigue in turkey also how long will it take another century for turkey to be a full member that's one thing our bible neither the additions that could happen or look most of that you know they just thought i about for example in eastern
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mediterranean today is related to cyprus if you remember what happened in 2004 with the anon referendum for the unification of the island on the turkish side said yes the greeks said no and what happened afterwards in fact that you will what you will is this is what executive orders that you talked so much about is this part of the anti turkish chorus that you often talk about i'm talking about what what are you saying here failure can see you saying the e.u. is biased. in the in the e.u. after the referendum what they did instead of actually. challenging the greek side on this issue they accepted the greek side as a full member and that violated another key principle you don't bring in a bilateral territorial dispute into the e.u. they did exactly that and now for the last 1415 years we've been dealing with these issues but my point is that it's either cyprus or human rights issues or security or turkey it's one thing after another that is presented as
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a as an excuse or an obstacle for turkey to see a membership ok so you know what you know what the conditions on it where you are going to be we're not calling a day then we call it a day you want to do it they can they're welcome to do it we are still committed to joining the e.u. as a full member nothing short of a full membership discount and let's just look briefly in the time we have left at the purges the people who were after the coup attempt in 26 i think i would answer the people who were fired from their jobs many thousands of them had to be cleared later on. because the charges against them were nonsense weren't they thousands of people who were falsely implicated in the coup attempt had to be installed because the allegations against the war folks not that they had the chance to defend themselves before they were fired this is lie from the your a.k.p. in the are we are getting hurt you have no i don't there isn't your light or the western side of berlin right now does it matter what on the eastern side you know
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how many people were fired from their jobs when the unification happened we're not talking about germany i'm not talking about you have to see i know you don't want to talk about this you have to be needed in france that irish thing you know any country about your own issues you want to provide the context when it comes to turkey you deny me the right to state the context i'm asking the audience or how many people were fired from their jobs when the unification happened in 1000 this is give you the number 500000 people so you want workers these are soldiers journalists these are diplomats you can play but what about game and it's very fashionable know i'm a while it isn't there you said what about what about beaners i'm not oh i don't know what about china or what happened in your drawing to talk about your persian searing the question the very same time it is the simple thousands of people were fired and humiliated and their reputations were drawn through the muck before finally they were able to clear their names they because this is
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a judicial tat for this chap but look what happened in the meantime they have applied those who are cleared in fact are free either to go or to apply for their jobs and that's still a process under way of course i'm not saying that everything is perfect here there is still room for improvement there are still thinks that we need to do to make sure that this people you know have their full rights but you have to see this in context your party has sat back and watch countless people's lives ruined while you through allegations that the that turned out to be false there is a judicial process. oh order should lie eventually eventually made or was 'd there were the 4 for this 500 cares about the collateral damage they were of with his 500000 people who were fired from their jobs during the unification because they were suspected of working for such. the german eastern german intelligence suspect we're talking about turkey we're talking about be talking about in turkey and i
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that you shared your gods military coup and i thank you very much for being on conflicts and our pleasure thank you very much.
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and sounds. and then incredible location. night groups every week on t.w. . and now completely affectionate legend but as affectionately as you can. be interpreted in the middle of his election campaign in 2000 the documentary was filmed for russian television. to turn the camera back on of course the film secretly chronicled a power grab actually everything was precisely planned introduction. featuring top supporting roles to the freedom of russia. and featuring a lead role like you've never seen before. putting your foot or merrill lynch to
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the ends justify the means. of witnesses starts december 13th w. . this is d.w. news live from berlin and british police identify the i 10 attack at who killed 2 people on the bridge a convicted terrorist who was released early from prison prime minister taras johnson visited the same in the attack on saturday he says it doesn't make sense to allow those convicted of terrorist fences to be released. come.


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