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tv   To the point  Deutsche Welle  December 6, 2019 11:30pm-12:00am CET

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discovered. subscribe to the documentary on you tube. nato leaders of this week been meeting in london to mark the 70th anniversary of an organization that styles itself as the most successful military alliance in history however provocative claims from french president emanuel that nato is as he put it to brain damage triggered an angry reaction from others not least from u.s. president donald trump who described the comment as nasty insulting and disrespectful for america as usual work to seek some sort of compromise and consensus concluding that it had been
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a very successful meeting so our question here on to the point is nato at 17 brain dead or fighting for it. thanks so much for joining us here on the phone to the point here in the studio in berlin and i'm joined by 3 excellent journalists beginning with my daughter bella colleague in showers who's a french born political correspondent and him says gloves off macros braindead comments on nato put diplomacy at risk also with us flooding there from the russian desk here on c d w he believes that nato is the perfect enemy for russia and if nato didn't exist then for domestic purposes the kremlin would have to. undergo very warm welcome to meltzer laming he's an old 3rd senior. sort of the berlin based
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a leader target. and he argues that nato is still the strongest military alliance in the world the infighting at the london summit shows just how complex many security challenges have become. a martyr i would like to begin with you head of the london gathering one u.k. newspaper the guardian newspaper said the meeting had the potential to be and i'm quoting the birthday party from hell there were certainly fears that things could get very ugly so now that the dust has settled is nato more united or less united than before. i think it is more united than before because we saw some surprises strong commitment from the u.s. president on the trump to nato strongly rejecting all brain dead comments by the french president no pulling out from no obstruction from from any other participant that was feared about so their wealth in fights and struggles yes
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but i think the unity in the airlines has been strength the unity so it's interesting that most of the german headlines and some of that i was looking out to said to the summer clothes there have been no parole no disaster no but still it all sounds pretty paltry for an organization that as we say sees itself as the as the greatest military alliance in history you're right it is a defensive position saying there was no i mean split up of all these but but giving but giving the. different kind of threats before using something from russia to china cyber war and all these things you name it it was not supposed to be in meeting it's not even called a summit it's called a meeting with no clear cut gender anyway so it was not supposed to to solve these problems or get a unanimous position about new threats and things like this even though they found
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a final. topic they agreed upon going to you are not to think they go to sleep. i am well i'm sorry i think there was some sort of an agenda that meeting there was a set of decisions that people had agreed upon before even the meeting that defense and foreign minister how degraded upon such and things that come was that they can ration that was made at the summit that thing that was important for them to meet does occasional that seventy's anniversary to reiterate and reassess. this alliance while old i was going on there was very interested what you might call role reversal between presidents trump and chrome with micro lashing out. of nato and donald trump saying that nato that he's a fan of the nato alliance and that nato has come a long way in the last 3 years what do you make of all that well that's a bit so rich coming from trying to actually blast someone over very sensitive
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comments i would say but as so french pride hurt. if not of that a french fry because i also don't necessarily agree with the way a minor micro actually addressed nato i think i get the point that he wants things to be shifting within the alliance and that's that's fair enough i think it needs some shifting but calling it a brand such a sensitive time where we having so many job issues i think that's not necessary to right way to go and also it also goes on to show that he is a resorting to changes that our president comes to t.g. he says that he has achieved a lot using this blunt language he's adopting trans tried to strategic and actually when donald trump actually shook shook up nato last year to it resulted in countries to actually put more money into their defense politics so maybe you need some kind of shaken up i'm just not sure dot not using the not using diplomacy to
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achieve so is a very wise given the current political situation globally. supporter what are people in russia likely to have false or 2 suits of single with their emotional reaction be to seeing nato celebrating your 70th anniversary there was much talk about so the british and the russians the media if you will or work to russian media covering from what from london it's a very cynical comments about martha being busy with itself about the chief of states presidents and prime min to. source and gossiping involved each other so watch what i do what i did to get all this involved that there was a 1st topic and the 2nd one was not the linking mani the computer the beautiful russian iraq it systems i'm in the new beautiful russian deep and systems so basically it's quite cynical views in russia oh it's the people in russia
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frightened of nato in the way that people in europe are frightened of russia not at all i mean russia is so proud on this on its military you know right to day this is new or russian fume impairing from the russians soon you must involve another one by the law of the 2nd world war in russia which is a huge production which is supporting the russian national pride and the military history of getting a base north of think there is a russian being frightened and i think the russians know that nato is not a annexing and conquering an imperialistic power. so they know the difference between the un and no one here cares if your book that i'm normal average people or most koreans in 1st book i mean no one really cares not though it's danger from or out there is the instrument of the instrument that is that what it is doing what it's like goals for a consolidation of society for a summer in domestic issues but it's not such fear in the broth population like in europe there but it was interesting nevertheless to hear
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a lot of the putin talking from sochi from the black sea resort talking about nato has continued expansion as he put it and then nevertheless saying that he hoped that a shared interest in common security would prevail is that must 1st step perhaps in a new direction some people are hoping that it is a dialogue a different kind of dialogue a different kind of conversation i think it's very very difficult i mean michael writes the topic of new relationships with russia but i'm afraid it won't happen very soon there are just too many developments and still the annexation of the crimea in the war is still going on in east of ukraine we will have the normandy meeting on monday coming up in paris we will see if that leads to something but we have news being viewed as a last must test a possible new relations and yeah i mean you know you know. kind of what given the reasons why we get progress on ukraine i host kills me but given the recent scandal
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in berlin with the with the likelihood that the russians are involved explain in the receipt of a candle for all of us. a man who was killed in berlin and tear garden supposedly and many indices point to that with the involvement of the russian secret service the. perpetrator was called but he's silent about it and to diplomats were expelled. in germany so there are huge huge tensions right though so how is not likely to impact the ukraine beating on monday that this coming monday it will impact the meeting in terms of is this the right time to make a new kind of policy towards that to be approved and i think no german politician right now can say yes it is the right ok what do you want your merkel going to burst the middle of europe which and when knowles all of that think will to our knowledge it will go it will move and i hope and i hope there will be some concrete
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steps the words collisions in the eastern ukraine and i hope in the russian i kind of i don't know what's happening in paris next week but i just guessed ok deescalation is to crane yes things like that but no new i mean strategic partnership in any kind of time is not talks about news that there's a partnership there are thrust of the talks about country of distortions their normandy form out involvements can dream and this collision in the eastern ukraine and i hope there will be complete steps in this direction ok the debate about nato has goals and purpose goes back a long way right to the very beginning in fact but so far nobody has described the alliance is brain dead and there's little debating the fact that militarily nato is a full sized to be reckoned with. the north atlantic treaty organization flex its muscles in norway it was the biggest military exercise since the dissolution of the soviet union and. directed at russia before the summit french
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president made it clear that he desired an end to the confrontation with moscow and a new definition of. our common enemy are a common topic question deserves clarification as you see it's a very strategic question sometimes i hear is russia our enemy is it china is it the mission of the transatlantic alliance to designate them as enemies i don't believe so our common enemy within the alliance is the terrorism that has every one of our countries. with the president might cross and set the direction of the nato summit and. partners especially in eastern europe in addition he criticized more severely than any other. american withdrawal from syria and the actions of nato partners in the region.
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president in the future. stake at risk he certainly. did it's all very good spending a lot of money on the military it's very good having boots on the ground and being efficient militarily but you need to have strategic goals and the central strategic goals we just saw was this is the question who is the enemy what's the. very diplomatic. saying that we don't have enemies we need to act with them and do not. consider. so. 29 countries for nato and they all have diverging interests. of defense most of them don't spend enough according to nato. regulation on defense budgets so yes then there needs to be a new strategic there also needs to be an identifying of the actual threats we have
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new zones of conflicts that ought to be identified as the current threat of the threat to the moment the threat is not necessarily one country or another the threat is a much more global desir for this meeting nato acknowledged that china was posing new opportunities but also new challenges with its flies and of course the situation i was russia at the moment poses a threat when it comes to dealing with actions but there will probably be able to say more about this than me and i know my conscious outlines the fact that we need a new strategy for nato and that's what i was saying earlier by just saying that the organisation is brain dead is not going to bring things much further like the man who is the enemy what is if the enemy is not the country what is in the music climate change or globalization on global power to not mention to think in the ring
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in london as far as i can tell climate change what is the enemy can a behind the scenes what if the enemy is operating on the level of a must media or you can use of manipulation of the public opinion in the not on this i really like russia know what has the not the right to do so then jurors coming from not from the country not on the on the. convenient to be with but answer with thanks that thanks old style isn't conveniently pence let's go back back in history a little bit and then we had the bipolar world the cold war there was a clear cut enemy in the union and its calm after the wall came down there was a term coined in the cold war called flexible response it was how to react and kind of war 2 words soviet union ships if you have a flexible response you need a flexible response today about new threats there is no single biggest threat but
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that doesn't mean that they are not multi party polar threats. as for example russia or china or cyber war or terrorism over threats from boise and that nato members don't necessarily all share the same values as they did for so long they don't necessarily share the values that a map sounds in the preamble of the nato treaty yes but do they have to share the same values to confront the variety of threats maybe not maybe they can confront a variety of threats with different kind of the elements i mean clear cut example is. the president of turkey who clearly has a different kind of values than the rest of nato before we continue i'd like to come back she wants to know mr atta and let's just go to a clip that we have of the way the. president at one addressed the meeting in london the agenda the very robust agenda he brought within
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that some people have dismissed as blackmail let's listen. our friends at nato do not recognize as a terrorist organization those against whom we are carrying out our fight against terrorism then excuse me we will oppose any step that nato seeks to undertake. skaar single. moms who we're talking about shared values or values and don't necessarily share your newspapers or television people writes turkey regularly behaves as if it couldn't care less about the shared values and interests that underpin the alliance yes but it still might be valued member of the alliance. even though we have the disputes about the as $400.00 defense system. the russian defense system we have to spews about syria about about the
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cooperation with russia in that region about supporting islamists in syria and so on and so on and not to not to talk about everything that is inside so turkey which gives reason for for a lot of wars so but it still is a very valuable member of the alliance and the south like every member of the of nato is valuable because they all have an equal say in the matter so there's no country that is less than the other and i think that's one of the things that make to make nato valuable. people are worried about turkey because it's now and some are saying turkey should not be a member of nato. yes but it is and. i think you have to retrieve. it is fear and this meeting in london i think there was much to say about conflicts of interests and come face of posts not it has not had to clashing with so in my name i call talking with justin trudeau from canada and that
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gave a bit of the fading of a schoolyard and i'm not sure the the world at the moment deserves that kind of watching too for most of us to be out there like to go back to the point you mentioned involve the past of not there because the whole soap of the problems or the whole thing dangerous source of danger a shift of the completely in the recent debates the kates and is not a big jerk it became the member of the not the danger was completely different than no no it's the middle east is the 4 sport of the world politics and so you're a good place to do completely different role in the process and this is what we are talking about the whole world is changing so greek and so far so fast that the need to react or not the new story arc very critical of this and the question is able to react the critique but it would interest us i mean i could remind you about the if there is the 303030 initiative i think is very valuable and might be exploited the bit it means we have nato has to be able to 30 days to have 30 battalions so the
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ships. in every corner on the earth so if they if they work on this initiatives i think it's very well valuable and it might come from a lot of threats they're facing. but i think we're also facing new threats for example the cyberspace nature has to become performant in fighting that there's also a new place of conflict that is actual space and it toso has to develop tools in dr god i think the threats have diversified and if nato wants to survive it actually has to find a way to address those anarchy if right. make state up to facebook groups from centers were promise and provoke throw fabric and through pushed ideas via facebook to the american public and keep fighting through these facebook groups american public one part of the american public good. against another part of american public but can chip sometimes do against this and this difficult decision but still
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just for a 2nd because i would like to and i want to hear what emanuel has to say about one point we haven't touched so far as a lot of tension in nato ranks about money a significant number of nato members according to donald trump a free loading including germany. we're looking for work we're 3 percent of the largest he ever got we've never had the feeling we have right now and overseas come to us and other people what they want to preserve some people they must work for so they 1st of all not here. they get it there we protect them not here. in the world with your french background do you understand germany's reluctance to be spending targets but it has a history as well because of all the 2 germany was reluctant for a long time to a low military spending at all and decide of history is very. very
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present in every decision made in regarding to results of what you are saying is that there are french troops on the ground fighting al qaida fighting oh yes that was my 2nd saudi and rejoin the document is would be a good start was my 2nd that was my my 2nd point actually so germany spends way less than france in its defense and france is actually paying the price of blogs in africa in order to protect the rest of europe that is a fact and indeed problem i think it is also problematic in the partnership between france and germany because they agreed no later than you know cobra they did agree to spend less on a coordinating coordinated defense system but germany to german parliament is. waiting spending too much time discussing the budgets rather than putting the money where it should be and that actually hinders the french german relationship as well
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so to me what's your response to this streak of pacifism that still is very central in politics military politics and life if i talk to morris in france is think because it's a bit of work in moscow if i tell them what german media are writing covering about the condition of the bundeswehr. no one believes me there is always a very dangerous book bundesrat troops to send all these people to the field without food without weaponry or is a little service here so little submarines basically nothing on a major role for a people living in russia for a country like germany having this kind of army. most of i can hear you trying to get it. yes i say germany should spend more they should spend more not necessarily on hard work even though i think the army has to be modernized very very much but they should spend more on cyber defense this is one of the huge topics. nato countries have to face as a security threat and to develop and build up the need the needed skills for cyber
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defense is something that is really really important and i think you might even get a majority of germans committed to that not necessary to defend spending the traditional way but let me add one more point to to president u.s. president trumps claim i mean you still have to see the united states spends like 5 trillion dollars from $911.00 to now on the war on terror all over the world so the huge defense budget of the united states goes to many places in the world not just to european defense but there's another iran pouring rich no one in australia understands rob germany of its high speed internet connection if you talk about cyber attacks and cyber defense no one really can arrange them in the country where german to term her for such a better quality of internet and. but there will always be a discrepancy between the american army and the german or your army and the making
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for example because we simply didn't do not share the same vision of. the well. i think you say to me in germany because of history it will never be a country which you want to make fun which you want to in t.v. . with it's on me but at least it should have a functioning army and a fog that regularly america cannot fly somewhere because the plane wouldn't take off or something like that that goes on to show it's a crying shame but. yes it is a crying shame and it is not just michael it's the president as well it's the foreign minister and many other because just. and i think this is for a country like i agree with quite a lot of this i think not just russians about this but the rest of the world is doing that as well but especially to the russians and the chinese who are developing a terrestrial. and ira flirts but if we come to the chinese i mean china was
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mentioned at. a little time. and so there you overlap in new threats in cyber war with. traditional threats and it's called why the front that banks up the 5 g. system in the. region. the most successful military alliance. or is it the fact that. i want to thank you very very much for joining us here on to the point. 70000 in the question we've been addressing. by.
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the book i'm a. good .
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