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tv   Conflict Zone  Deutsche Welle  June 11, 2020 7:30pm-8:01pm CEST

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my. son was. trying to. come. into my journey to get started to maintain d.w. . look in detail at how beijing uses its national security laws on the mainland here you don't really understand the real situation in hong kong i also will come back to the situation in hong kong how one country 2 systems clearly operate hong kong never leaves the news for long these days now it's the draft of a new security law to be imposed by beijing that's provoking controversy and
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protests joining me this week from hong kong is regina if a member of the city's legislative council and chair of the probate jink new people's party will the communist north origins try to use this law as they have with other security statutes on the mainland to violate basic rights and restrict free expression. region that you're welcome to a conflict zone hollow you recently wrote an article about the controversial new security law that china is going to impose on hong kong and you said this does not to necessarily spell the death of hong kong separate systems but you're taking a huge gamble backing this law onto because beijing has done everything it can to prove that it's not interested in those separate systems not interested in freedom
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of expression human rights or the rule of law is it. i don't think we need to come to a conclusion because china already has its own national security law you know which is only a few pages long what's consists mainly of principles exhortations duties obligations . i think the fact that it needs it feels like it's true and that a whole home version reflects its understanding that hong kong to version which is consistent with our common law system that's why peyton is going to hack to and act as special hong kong specific national security law for us but region if you say don't jump to conclusions let's look at china's record mass surveillance on hundreds of thousands of people from c.c.t.v. cameras to a 1000000 we get locked up in shin jang region many without charge or trial booksellers from hong kong disappeared doubtless all of them dealt with under the
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same kind of security laws that are coming to hong kong all day and none of that you say necessarily spells the death of hong kong separate system of course it does . well you are talking about mainland china you're not talking about hong kong in hong kong you know we have a common law system and we have the presumption of innocence anyone arrested can apply for haiti as kopper's conviction on criminal offense needs very high burden of proof in fact proving beyond reasonable doubt which when all the safeguards are here they're over we already implemented the international covenant on civil and political rights through our basic law and the bill of rights in hong kong so-called has a different system we shouldn't alum our system to gether what mainland china system we have strong protection of person no data privacy so what you just said
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simply does not apply to hong kong where you say you have these common law safeguards how long are you going to have them for when the new law comes into into effect look in detail at how beijing uses its national security laws on the mainland to curtail personal freedoms and snuff out dissident voices that's that's what is in store out of all of the us do you know you don't really understand the real situation in hong kong our law enforcement agencies are prosecution lawyers and judges are all trained in a common law system if beijing introduces a version. including on fences which are wide open not sufficiently clearly to find out people won't be able to implement it and our judges will be able to achieve a cage on those of fences so that's why i think beijing is taking advice from hong kong especially the common law lawyers as to how to delineate the specific over
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answers they have in mind why why should we accept the china is going to adopt this benign attitude that you described towards hong kong where needs. justice system on the mainland according to amnesty international remains plagued by unfair trials torture and of the ill treatment in detention why do you think you'll be able to carry on with the same common law safeguards that you have at the moment you can't truthfully make that assertion because beijing hasn't said it will has it well again you are ignoring the fact that beijing has respected our common law system and we have carry on with our common law system for 23 years since the reunification you know the stability and the predictability of a common law system is here for everybody to see what you kit kat describing is a situation in in mainland china according to certain human rights organization
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they do this sort of the scription does not apply to hong kong i must ask you how do you know where the how do you know that ration in hong kong how do you know that it doesn't like to hand out all i know that i know i know how because where it lays into has been working well as beijing said you know that they are methods will not oblige in hong kong in the basic law in the basic law it says all ecosystems previously in force will continue to apply at least up to 247. really in the last couple of going saw system is highly regarded in the last couple of days later in the last couple of days let me finish you are interviewing being you should let me finish give me a chance to finish my answer lisa you know i heard the well justice project the well justice project waits our legal system number 16 well why 3 places higher than that of the american system you should respect that yes and for how long will it
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remain that way. at least until 247. and our courts at the highest level our courts at the highest level have nonpermanent such as highly respected jurists from the commonwealth jurisdictions these are not people who can be pushed around they were to take 8 cases according to common law jurisprudence in the last couple of days you've made clear that not only will beijing security law be imposed but at the same time a major pillar of the justice system is also to be got rid of jury trials for those indicted under this new legislation you say juries might not be appropriate i think that was the term you used not appropriate why because they might not deliver the verdict that you politicians want to see. that's i said nothing that we're undermining our existing system jury trial is only appropriate for over fences tried in our high court it is over fences attract sentences below 7 years
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imprisonment they can go to lower courts that's effect as to whether courts well as to where he or france or should be tried our quote of final appeal has held that it should be at this decision for our pos occlusion people of course nowadays with so much online bullying going on you know so much talk saying you know it is our effect that some jurors might do so intimidated as to as to become worried about serving as jurors in these cases that is effect a reality that i wish to point out and why shouldn't judges be intimidated either who in future judges who might be told in advance what the verdict is just like the system on the mainland that's how it's going to be isn't it in hong kong what i can tell you as legislators i am being intimidated too because there are people urging
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the u.s. and the u.k. to put the un sanctions list is that fair what do you say to that people threatening my freedoms and rights. regina beijing's draft law already suggests that the independence of judges will come under direct threat doesn't it article 3 of the draft decision says hong kong's legislative and judicial organs must in accordance with relevant laws effectively prevent stop and punish acts in danger national security that's telling the judges are to do their job isn't it so much for the independence of the judiciary being safeguarded. being independent being an independent branch up the government doesn't mean that they are not they are have nots one loyalty to the basic law or allegiance to the country or touches on taking up their office they have sworn allegiance to the country they have a duty to protect the welfare of hong kong being
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a part of the nation i see nothing wrong with that i was quite that's were threatening independence are. you hold up a copy of the basic law but the hong kong bar association which knows a thing or 2 about law has what it calls a fundamental constitutional and legal concerns about this new law they point out that article $23.00 agreed by joint declaration says hong kong shall enact laws on its own to prohibit treason succession subversion to having a law imposed security law imposed by beijing is not an acting laws on its own is it. well you later could point then why did the bar association did not support the trough national security legislation i championed back in 2 well or to try very hard to help hong kong to an act national security laws on our own why did they object to that and in the course of the public scrutiny i gave them many
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concessions now the article 23 imposes a constitutional duty on the us to prohibit certain national security of answers but it does not preclude the p.r.c. of origins from acting under their constitution the problem with our powers so here is that it ignores the laws of china only focuses on the basic law of hong kong what should we really which sets out a constitution or arrangements for hong kong but the national people's congress is the highest of already in mainland china and the bar association has persisted and in persistent in ignoring these realities so the national people's congress can just 3 percent of the basic laws it feels like the bar association says it would appear that the national people's congress has no power to the national security law that it's proposing. under article 23 the n.p.c.
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has not swept away the powers of our our under the basic law the decision the decision of the n.p.c. the 7 point assertion in 2 of the points day urged the hong kong government to get on with and acting legislation locally on our own to fulfill our constitutional obligations you know our duty under article 3 it does not preclude baiting of origins from doing their own thing to protect national security certainly every country has a right to protect its security and territorial integrity let's look at what happened back in 2003 when you were security minister and you tried and failed to push through a security law against subversion and treason for hong kong it brought the people out in the hundreds of thousands against it and you had to resign your post because why because people didn't trust this law and they didn't trust the provisions of it
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and they still don't do they still don't. or well home call has undergone many crises of confidence in the past 100 years you know but our systems have remained robust you know and on a lot of people are now regretting they should have supported the version that i championed 17 years ago moreover a lot of people came up to protest not just because of the national security law but because of the sars epidemic at the time and many who normally problems and the difference between then and now is that it's at that time after the then chief executive announced he would. not go ahead with the legislation people went home peacefully but in the past year we have seen a lot of violence a lot of subversive activity a lot of terrorist activities harm done a lot of protests indeed dangerous. as in the u.s.
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as into us you know who you are please on hold on but we have also had we are we also have all of smashing of windows beating up innocent bystanders holding up explosives ransacking of the legislative console and the holding of the trooper on the tucson p.c. tended a lot of police brutality are you ok. not a single citizen has been mortally wounded by our police force on the other hand in the past week 3 police officers have died of exhaustion after off duty we're totally unlike the us where the policemen kill at least $1000.00 people every year you must be fair there no such thing as police brutality in hong kong well let's not bring in the us you have to show me a single you know we are not talking about the us but give me one specific instance of police brutality you cannot just pick the words up the lights up george i won't
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for granted well about setting people on fire that was one of them we hope they saw what we saw on the bus or know if you go to work break you say they'll give you a single example we saw on video few months ago a policeman shooting a demonstrator an unarmed demonstrators directly in the stomach you must have seen it as well wasn't that police brutality regina that's not police brutality the policeman was trying to protect himself the from an unarmed the charging at him from an armed man well an armed man can also be dangerous the the happened several shooting incidents in the past 12 months each incident has been carefully examined by the police and they have basically been exculpated by the expert groups and gauged by our independent police complaints council you say that the bar association raises the issue of how this new law is going to be enforced by china the draft decision says that when needed relevant national security organs of the
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central people's government will set up agencies in hong kong to safeguard national security in accordance with the new law what are we talking about here regina in beijing secret kind of thing already are we talking about beijing secret police operating in hong kong as and when they want i don't think they're talking about direct and forstmann of law enforcement of laws will continue to be. the responsibility of our policeman that's not what it says it is against the basic on no no no that's what what you described they did not say what you describe they only said that some national security agency made me set up on the need basis as in a couple hours a national security council you have no know what is right and i'm an ashkenazi doing a hunch that means doesn't mean the baby when it's not a creative only way it's actually we don't know for the details so you can't delete culpable as well you should not you can't give any comforting but as you have not
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about this and you cannot give any unwarranted accusations. if there are no facts you are making unwarranted accusations will these agencies operate under mainland law or hong kong law or you don't know do you. no no no it's in the basic law they must obey hong kong law when i said this it is not clear yet what any new national security agency would be responsible for it could simply be responsible for public education publicized here and promotion you know you cannot come to the conclusion that they are they will be enforcing hong kong law that's what they bridge that's what they do when they bring in the national security organs of the central police government does it it was sent to people's government that's what they are looking for education is it you don't know that again you aren't me. and you have no no factual basis for making those sort of statements you are simply making are sweeping allegations based on your own assumptions and bias when there's
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no assumptions and bias when you look at how the national security organs of the central people's government operate when they're in on the mainland and we're not talking about mainland we're talking about one country 2 systems let's come back to hong kong. it doesn't look as though it's one country 2 systems that have really international security organs have an imposing their security laws on hong kong it doesn't look like 2 systems it looks like one country one system if you do that they are an acting they are trying to enact a hong kong specific version which is consistent with our common law systems if they just wish to implement impose china's system on us they could just apply this to us china's national security law but they are not doing this they are now consulting hong kong experts about and in. crafting
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a hong kong specific version for us to take account of our separate systems. one of the things you said recently in your article was that beijing has a tacit understanding that the new law needs to be drafted in a way that's consistent with common law norms and strikes a balance between protecting national security and up holding personal rights and freedoms 1st point regina tacit understanding is are by definition meaningless and . well protected understanding you know is reflected by the fact that they are not imposing the national law on hong kong they are trafficking a hong kong specific law in fact because they understand our system is different in the basic law they asked us to do it on our own but because we failed to do so in the past 23 years so one thing of thora he's have no option but to get on with introducing a set up laws that will protect national security and discourage separatists activities that's what they are doing there not imposing national laws on hong kong
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tell me why i know our system is different tell me over fences that they are worried about for example succession subversion under the common law these offenses need to be very clearly spelled out and they will need expert help from hong kong perhaps your assurances would carry more weight if what we'd been seeing in hong kong hadn't been taking place and that's the erosion of existing rights as in the last month un human rights experts severely criticised police for the arrest of peaceful demonstrations in violation they said of norms international norms and rights they demanded that the hong kong government immediately trump the criminal prosecution of 15 pro-democracy activists who took part in peaceful protests last year if you're so concerned about the rule of law in hong kong why are you not going to release these people i think you have been talking to the wrong
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people and take a listening only to one side that opinion. take for example june 4th commemorations can you can you to take place in hong kong even though note the participants violate our public or public health laws prohibiting group. gatherings the police allow them to gather in factorial park and facilitate at their gathering no difference i don't think there would be any difference after the national hong kong for sure not the national security law it's been an exit peaceful gatherings peaceful possible processions will continue to be allowed the police tried to ban that vigil as you know in victoria park didn't they and what the police did not try to not ban that the police facilitate at least 10000 public meetings and processions the police have been pending not giving approval in recent months because of the covert 900 situation because we have enacted public health
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laws prohibiting group gatherings of more than 8 people you've had only 5 we have got a visual stayed at home orders you have you have only 5 locally transmitted infections 5 in the week of june the 1st after more than 2 weeks with no local cases taking the total number of infections to just over a $1004.00 deaths prodemocracy cambodia's said it was just an excuse excuse to try and block an unwelcome event and they were right one day thank you for pointing out that we have done well in fighting covert 19 but we should not take anything for granted we should not 2nd feis public safety you know just to accommodate these protests request they can't do it after the covert 1000 is completely under control moreover we have detected 2 local outbreaks recently in public housing estates the sources of which have not yet been traced. beijing's declared reason for this new
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law is to maintain order in hong kong and to counteract what it calls characteristics of terrorism and separation but that's not the real worry is it the fact is the security law reflects beijing's paranoia about free speech and freedom in general doesn't live and that's a very unfair statement in the past 12 months the police have uncovered at least 22 cases up extremely dangerous key a.t.p. explosive hole that inching one in the school and lots of weaponry dangerous weapons have been using a lot of so-called peaceful protests you know and innocent people have been killed these are violent events have never occurred in hong kong and there are people waving promoting hong kong independence you know waving hong kong flat chanting revolutionary songs you know these are activities that no government would allow a lot of hong kong people are very angry about it john fund revolutionary song well
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in order john to get aleutian resolve that we are perfectly entitled to chant revolutionary songs in 3 countries regina europe you can go to london or washington and chant whatever revolutionary songs you want why don't you try it. it depends on whether the songs are chanted as in an opera les miserables la or chant as a part up and well organized and well planned action plan to stoke separatist sentiments. at the end of the day your your reason your pitch to the people of hong kong is trust beijing this security law will not be used in the same way that beijing uses its security laws to tamp down on freedoms on the mainland this is what you are asking them to accept that china is not going to
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behave the way it behaves on the mainland in hong kong do you really believe that of course trust our motherland our motherland has nothing but good intentions for the people of hong kong and also trust the basic law trust one country 2 systems which has worked well in the past 23 years you know why doesn't it have better attentions towards its own people on the mainland why is it torturing them in prisons and locking up a 1000000 wiggers in riyadh so-called reeducation camps why is it doing that unless you took i must ask you not to confuse and fills the issues but keep talking about making allegations about a name that would have nothing to do it one country 2 systems i ask you to come back to the situation in hong kong how one country 2 systems really operate and don't allow your biased talk color your you know your reports on hong kong that's totally unfair to hong kong people i take strong objection to that regina it's been
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good to have your own comfort zone thank you very much.
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