tv Conflict Zone Deutsche Welle June 13, 2020 6:30pm-7:00pm CEST
the global corona crisis you can find more information online at g.w. dot com and on t.w. social media channels. look in detail at how beijing uses its national security laws on the mainland you don't really understand the real situation in hong kong i also will come back to the situation in hong kong how one country 2 systems clearly operate hong kong never leaves the news for long these days now it's the draft of a new security law to be imposed by beijing that's provoking controversy and protests joining me this week from hong kong is regina if a member of the city's legislative council and chair of the probe aging new peoples party will the communist authorities try to use this law as they have with other
security statutes on the mainland to violate basic rights and restrict free expression. regina you're welcome to a conference on harlow you recently wrote an article about the controversial new security law that china is going to impose on hong kong and you said this does not to necessarily spell the death of hong kong separate systems but you're taking a huge gamble backing this law onto because beijing has done everything it can to prove that it's not interested in those separate systems not interested in freedom of expression human rights or the rule of law is it. i don't think we need to come to a conclusion because china already has its own national security law you know which
is only a few pages long what's consists mainly of principles exhortations duties obligations . i think the fact that it needs it feels like is true and that a hong kong version reflects its understanding that hong kong to version which is consistent with our common law system that's why painting is going ahead to an act in special hong kong specific national sick until or for us but region if you say don't jump to conclusions let's look at china's record mass surveillance on hundreds of thousands of people from c.c.t.v. cameras to a 1000000 we get locked up in shin jang region many without charge or trial booksellers from hong kong disappeared doubtless all of them dealt with under the same kind of security laws that are coming to hong kong all back and none of that you say necessarily spells the death of hong kong separate system of course it does
. well you are talking about mainland china you're not talking about hong kong in hong kong you know we have a common law system and we have the presumption of innocence anyone arrested can apply for haiti as kopper's conviction on criminal offense needs very high burden of proof in fact proving beyond reasonable doubt which with all these safeguards are here they're over we already implemented the international covenant on civil and political rights through our basic law and the bill of rights in hong kong so vocal has a different system we shouldn't alum our system to gether what mainland china's system we have strong protection of person no data privacy so what you just said simply does not apply to hong kong where you say you have these common law safeguards how long are you going to have them for when the new law comes in through in through effect look in detail at how beijing uses its national security
laws on the mainland to curtail personal freedoms and snuff out dissident voices that's that's what is in store out of all of the us do you know you don't really understand the real situation in hong kong our law enforcement agencies are prosecution lawyers and judges are all training in a common law system if they think introduces a version. including on fences which are wide open not sufficiently clearly to find out people won't be able to implement it and our judges won't be able to achieve a case on those of fences so that's why i think beijing is taking advice from hong kong especially the common law lawyers as to how do they lean yates the specific over answers they have in mind why why should we accept the china is going to adopt this benign absolute torture and other ill treatment in detention. why do you think
you'll be able to carry on with the same common law safeguards that you have at the moment you can't truthfully make that assertion because beijing hasn't said it will has it well again you are ignoring the facts that beijing has respected our common law system and we have carry on with our common law system for 23 years since the reunification you know the stability and the predictability of a common law system is here for everybody to see what you kit kat describing is a situation in in mainland china according to certain human rights organization they do this sort of the scription must not apply to hong kong i must ask you how do you know where we are do you know the traditional hong kong how do you know that it doesn't what are you here not all i know that i know i know how because i was lazy and the man has been working whereas beijing said you know that there are methods will not have the large hong kong in the basic law in the basic law it says
all ecosystems previously in force will continue to apply at least up to 247 you know really in the last couple of games losses from this highly regarded in the last couple of days later in the last couple of days let me finish you are interviewing being you should let me finish give me a chance to finish my answer luis you know i heard the well justice project the well justice project weights our legal system number 16 well why 3 places higher than that of the american system you should respect that yes and for how long will it remain that way. at least until 247. and our courts at the highest level our courts at the highest level have nonpermanent judges highly respected jurists from the commonwealth jurisdictions these are not people who can be pushed around they were to take
a cases according to common law jurisprudence in the last couple of days you've made clear that not only will beijing security law be imposed but at the same time a major pillar of the justice system is also to be got rid of jury trials for those indicted under this new legislation you say juries might not be appropriate i think that was the term used not appropriate why because there might not deliver the verdict that you politicians want to see. that's i said nothing that would undermine our existing system jury trial is only appropriate for over fences tried in our high court it is over fences are checked sentences below 7 years imprisonment they can go to lower courts that's effect as to whether courts well as to where the or france or should be tried our quote of final appeal has held that it should be at this decision for our pos occlusion people of course nowadays we're
so much online bullying going on you know so much boxing you know it's our effect that some jurors might do so intimate think that as true as to become worried about serving as jurors in these cases that is effect a reality that i wish to point out and why shouldn't judges be intimidated either who in future judges who might be told in advance what the verdict is just like the system on the mainland that's how it's going to be isn't it in hong kong what i can tell you as legislators i am being intimidated too because there are people urging the u.s. and the u.k. to put me on sanctions list is that fair what do you say to that people threatening my freedoms and rights. regina beijing's draft law already suggests that the independence of judges will come under direct threat doesn't it article 3 of the draft decision says hong kong's legislative and judicial organs must in accordance
with relevant laws effectively prevent stop and punish acts in danger in national security that's telling the judges are to do their job isn't it so much for the independence of the judiciary being safeguarded. being independent being an independent branch up the government doesn't mean that they are not they are have nots one loyalty to the basic law or allegiance to the country or touches on picking up their office they have sworn allegiance to the country they have a duty to protect the welfare of hong kong being a part of a nation i see nothing wrong with that i won't quite that were threatening to independence up traditionally you hold up a copy of the basic law but the hong kong bar association which knows a thing or 2 about law has what it calls a fundamental constitutional and legal concerns about this new law they point out
that article 23 agreed by joint declaration says hong kong shall enact laws on its own to prohibit treason succession subversion to having a law imposed security law imposed by beijing is not an acting laws on its own is it. well you better quote palling then why did the bar association did not support the trough national security legislation i championed back in 200 to try very hard to help hong kong to an act national security laws on our own why did they object to that and in the course of the public scrutiny i gave them many concessions now the awful trade you 3 imposes a constitutional duty on the us to prohibit certain national security or france's but it does not preclude the p.r.c. of origins from acting under their constitution the problem with our parcels here
is that it ignores the laws of china only focuses on the basic law of hong kong which is really it which sets out the constitutional arrangements for hong kong but the national people's congress is the highest of already in mainland china and the bar association has persisted and in persistent in ignoring these realities so the national people's congress can just reapers are the basic laws it feels like the bar association says it would appear that the national people's congress has no power to the national security law that it's proposing. on the article 23 the n.p.c. has not swept away the powers of our are under the basic law the decision the decision of the n.p.c. the 7 point assertion in 2 of the points they searched the home kong government to get on with and acting legislation locally on our own to fulfill our constitutional
obligations you know our duty under article 3 does not preclude baiting of origins from doing their own thing to protect national security certainly every country has a right to protect its security and territorial integrity let's look at what happened back in 2003 when you were security minister and you tried and failed to push through a security law against subversion and treason for hong kong it brought the people out in the hundreds of thousands against it and you had to resign your post because why because people didn't trust this law and they didn't trust the provisions of it and they still don't do they still don't. oh well home call has undergone many crises of confidence in the past 100 years you know but our systems have remained robust you know and on a lot of people are now regretting they should have supported the version that i
championed 17 years ago moreover a lot of people came out to protest not just because of the national security law but because of the sars epidemic and many who are normally problems and the difference between then and now is that at that time after the then chief executive announced he would. not go ahead with the legislation people went home peacefully but in the past year we have seen a lot of violence a lot of subversive activity a lot of terrorist activities harm done a lot of. extremely dangerous. as in the u.s. as in the u.s. you know capital well hold on but we have also had we are all we also have all of smashing the windows beating up innocent bystanders holding up explosives ransacking of the elections they have come so under holing of the truth our cities
are unprecedented a lot of police brutality are you ok. not a single citizen has been mortally wounded by our police force on the other hand in the past week 3 police officers have died of exhaustion after off duty we're totally unlike the us where the policemen kill at least $1000.00 people every year you must be fair there no such thing as police brutality in hong kong well let's not bring in the us you have to show me a single you know we are not talking about the us but give me one specific instance of police brutality you cannot just pick the words up the lights up joshua one for granted what about setting people on fire that was one of the military saw we saw and also on the radio network break you say they give you a single example we saw on video few months ago a policeman shooting a demonstrator an unarmed demonstrators directly in the stomach you must have seen
it as well wasn't that police brutality regina ip that's not police brutality the policeman was trying to protect himself the from and on ours the charging at him from an alarmed man well an armed man can also be dangerous the the have been several shooting incidents in the past 12 months each incident has been carefully examined by the police and they have basically been exculpated by the expert groups and gauge by our independent police complaints council you say that the bar association raises the issue of how this new law is going to be enforced by china the draft decision says that when needed relevant national security organs of the central people's government will set up agencies in hong kong to safeguard national security in accordance with the new law what are we talking about here regina in beijing secret kind of thing already and we're talking about beijing secret police operating in hong kong as and when they want i don't think they're talking about
direct and forstmann of law enforcement of laws will continue to be. the responsibility of our policeman that's not what it says it is against the basic on no no no that's what what you described they did not say what it is quote they only said that some national security agency made me set up on the need basis as an macomo because our national security council you have known what was right and i'm an ashkenazi doing a hunch that means doesn't mean the big winner creatively wades actually we don't know for the tito's so you can't be a little culpable as well you should not you can't give any comforting but as you have not about this and you cannot give any unwarranted accusations. if there are no facts you are making unwarranted accusations will these agencies operate under mainland law or hong kong law or you don't know do you. no no no it's in the basic law they must obey hong kong law what i said there is it is not clear
yet what any new national security agency would be responsible for it could simply be responsible for public education publicized here and promotion you know you cannot come to the conclusion that they are they will be enforcing hong kong law that's what they bridge that's what they do when they bring in their national security organs of the central police government is a central people's government that's what they are looking for education is it you don't know that again you aren't you and you have no no factual basis for making those sort of statements you are simply making are sweeping allegations based on your own assumptions and bias but there's no assumptions and bias when you look at how the national security organs of the central people's government operate when they're in on the mainland and we're not talking about mainland we're talking about one country 2 systems let's come back to hong kong. it doesn't look as though it's
one country 2 systems that have reigning in and national security organs have an imposing their security laws on hong kong it doesn't look like 2 systems looks like one country one system if you do that they are and acting they are trying to enact a hong kong specific version which is consistent with our common law systems if they just wish to implement impose china's system on us they could just apply this to us china's national security law but they are not doing this they are now consulting hong kong experts about and in. drafting a hong kong specific version for us to take account of our separate systems. one of the things you said recently in your article was the beijing has a tacit understanding that the new law needs to be drafted in a way that's consistent with common law norms and strikes a balance between protecting national security and up holding personal rights and
freedoms 1st point region a tacit understanding is our by definition meaningless and. well perhaps at understanding you know it's reflected by the fact that they are not imposing the national law on hong kong they are trafficking of hong kong specific law in fact because they understand our system is different in the basic law they asked us to do it on our own but because we failed to do so in the past 23 years so painting of our it is have no option but to get on worth introducing or set up laws that will protect national security and discourage separatists activities that's what they are doing they're not imposing national laws on hong kong tell me no our system is different tell their own fences that they are worried about for example succession subversion under the common law these offenses need to be very clearly spelled out and they will need expert help from hong kong perhaps your assurances would carry
more weight if what we'd been seeing in hong kong hadn't been taking place and that's the erosion of existing rights as in the last month un human rights experts severely criticized police for the arrest of peaceful demonstrations in violation they said of norms international norms and rights they demanded that the hong kong government immediately trump the criminal prosecution of 15 pro-democracy activists who took part in peaceful protests last year if you're so concerned about the rule of law in hong kong why are you not going to release these people i think you have been talking to the wrong people and take a listening only to one side that opinion. yes take for example june 4th commemorations could lead to new to take place in hong kong even although the participants violate our public or public health laws prohibiting group. gatherings the police allow them to gather in factorial park and facilitate at
their gathering no difference i don't think there would be any difference after the national hong kong for sure not the national security law it's been an exit peaceful gatherings peaceful possible processions will continue to be allowed the police tried to ban that vigil as you know in victoria park didn't they well the police did not try it did not bend that the police facilitated at least 10000 public meetings and processions the police have been pending not giving approval in recent months because up a covert 900 situation because we have enacted public health laws prohibiting group gatherings of more than 8 people you've had only 5 we have got occasional stayed at home orders you have you have only 5 locally transmitted infections 5 in the week of june the 1st after more than 2 weeks with no local cases taking the total number
of infections to just over a $1004.00 deaths prodemocracy cambodia's it was just an experience excuse to try and block an unwelcome event and they were right weren't they thank you for pointing out that we have done well in fighting covert 19 but we should not take anything for granted we should not 2nd feis public safety you know just to accommodate these protests request they can do it after the covert 19 is completely under control moreover we have detected 2 local outbreaks recently in public housing estates the sources of which have not yet been traced. beijing's declared reason for this new law is to maintain order in hong kong and to counteract what it calls characteristics of terrorism and separation but that's not the real worry is it the fact is the security law reflects beijing's paranoia about free speech and
freedom in general doesn't live and that's a very unfair statement in the past 12 months the police have uncovered at least 22 cases up extremely dangerous. explosive haul that inch in one in the school and lots of weaponry dangerous weapons have been using a lot of so-called peaceful protests you know and innocent people have been killed these are violent events have never occurred in hong kong and there are people waving promoting hong kong independence you know waving hong kong flat chanting revolutionary songs you know these are activities that no government would allow a lot of hong kong people are very angry about it johnson revolutionary songs to know in order john to get aleutian yes all of that they are perfectly entitled to chant revolutionary songs in free countries regina europe you can go to london or washington and chant whatever revolutionary songs you want why don't you try it.
it depends on whether the songs are chanted as in an opera les miserables la or chant as a part of a well organized and well planned action plan to stock separators sentiments. at the end of the day your your reason your pitch to the people of hong kong is trust beijing this security law will not be used in the same way that beijing uses its security laws to tamp down on freedoms on the mainland this is what you are asking them to accept that china is not going to behave the way it behaves on the mainland in hong kong if you really believe that of course trust our motherland our motherland has nothing but good intentions for the people of hong kong and also trust the basic law trust one country 2 systems which has worked well in the past 23 years you know why doesn't it have better intentions towards its own people on
the mainland why is it torturing them in prisons and locking up a 1000000 we guys in riyadh so-called reeducation camps why is it doing that i must answer you took i must also you want to confuse and fills the issues but keep talking about making allegations about a name that was have nothing to do it one country 2 systems i ask you to come back to the situation in hong kong how one country 2 systems really operate and don't allow your bias to color your you know your reports of hong kong that's totally unfair to hong kong people i take strong objection to that regina it's been good to have your own comfort zone thank you very much.
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this is the news live from berlin clashes in london as rival groups come face to face. protests to scuffle with police in the city center a site there for taking national monuments from being vandalized by black lives matter campaigners. chinese officials sound the alarm after a corona virus outbreak is linked to a populous city not.