Skip to main content

tv   No one shall be subjected to  Deutsche Welle  February 26, 2021 10:15am-11:01am CET

10:15 am
he's expected to fully recover from his injuries that he got us known to be streaming protective of adults but he said i don't know whether the dogs have been targeted because of the celebrity oh no. that's it from me and the news team here in berlin soon as of us come they will have an update for you in 45 minutes. this was. high time meal and i'm game did you know that 700000000000 land animals walk killed worldwide in fear but it's not just the animals little suffering the school environment if you want to know how when clicked off the priest and the how to train stuff doesn't he think is listen to our podcast on the green.
10:16 am
'd if anybody's are trapped in an elevator 20 minutes could be a pretty long time right ed alone. trapped in elevators. for 20 minutes not knowing what's going to happen not knowing where you wore suits of sensory deprivation. think about that is your life. 20 minutes out an hour out and the only guy on the intercom is nothing i was trying to get you out because i was keeping you. is your communications. existence. do you think a lot more of the belief. does
10:17 am
not in the room. it will not end until every terrorist group. has been found. dumped. in defeat. i think we lost more than one term. so you know empires in decline resort to torture and i think it gives them the illusion of mouse free dominance and control by torturing essentially we blind ourselves but we could in fact create a democratic society which actually has consistently valuable and effective
10:18 am
techniques to fight terror the fact that we don't it's more an expression of our own anxieties and fears. so called has interrogation techniques used by the u.s. officials were basically designed as techniques to break down the human mind and therefore also the body because they're very connected. and leave no physical traces and it's an. stream li. destructive practice torture. on of course on those who receive this pain and suffering but also on the society that becomes a society of cruelty what we've done is we've not so much lost the war on torture as we've won the war on democracy and that through terrorizing
10:19 am
a population over a period of decades said that there's nobody in this country who didn't grow up with some bogeyman some danger 1st it was communism then it was terrorism. obviously and. in many facets of what is generally called the cold war. which the communist policy is force. but there are no ties as the cia gauge of any political activity or any intelligence to it it was not approved at the highest level.
10:20 am
there was a concern that emerged in the 1st part of the cold war in the late 19th fours that the soviets had cracked the code of human consciousness. that they knew how to apply pressure upon the human mind and break the human mind and it was that that set off this whole pursuit that little to no end to the creation of the cia's doctrine of psychological torture this was a time of for the brainwashing scare there were show trials in eastern europe many hungry in poland which get aroused a lot of concern in the west because people seemed to be confessing to crimes that they hadn't committed. most of ordinary was a trial of cardinal mines and skiing and hungary and as he was already in after
10:21 am
work to quite famous because he was known for having resisted the nazis and their occupation of congress. and then after the war he became the cardinal in the primitive church. they arrested him they can find him those cues of being an aristocrat he became a kind of target of the regime. and then he was put on trial were cumbered clay confessed to the charges against him and there was this fear in washington that prince of the church and it was for a man known for his courage under nazi pressure that if he could be broken clearly the soviets were session of technics.
10:22 am
says michael farr as it starts in 1950 this was a project. that involved a $1000000000.00 a year. there was a formal creation of british than in american operation at the highest levels in order to mobilize the able scientists of these 3 countries in order to kind of crack the code of the consciousness. their own voice for medical doctors at cornell university medical school in new york city. they got access. to some of the more classified material on people that a skate from the soviet union and now been tortured in a sort of you know. wolf who's a very well known neurologist he had a personal relationship with alan dawes the head of the cia and with the human
10:23 am
ecology fine wolf offered to the cia a sense lay a friends in order to study questions of brainwashing what they discovered. was $11.00 of the 2 foundational techniques in the cia doctrine of psychological torture they discovered. self-inflicted pain if you force a human being to stay in a certain position especially physician that puts a little stress on way comments or muscles or bones joints it doesn't take very long for the pain involved to become absolutely excruciating but nobody is laying that your finger on you you are doing it to yourself. that was one of the tech it's the over technique they discovered was funny 8 of the
10:24 am
the by medical research. there was a perhaps work it was the chair of a psychology orphanage and the goal university in canada. students volunteered to participate in the study of human behavior under extreme and prolactin monotony their hands and arms were softly covered to muffle a sense of touch or stripes some to the biomass comes from the baron's flight and yet it was impossible for most of these to be used to take it for more than 24 or 48 hours sensory deprivation really is a way of producing dreama not it's her bush variants getting worse and worse some brossard be talked about cruelty. what they said was that the degree of boredom became intolerable and was. once again said as bad as anything that the hitler ever done to any of us such as you is victims as we know from almost any
10:25 am
basic medical understanding human contact is what makes us human and the lid and they will say a person to have a sense of normalcy in their lives and when they are completely isolated from any human contact and often kept in this sensory isolation you will literally easily become severely mentally impaired. that became apparent consoled the cia and continued to work for them is really for genitor of modern psychological torture. that project funded another guy who killed him doctor on camera. was on camera. and since it was. it was close to monstrous.
10:26 am
it came in for psychotherapy i was just crying crying crying. it was hopeless i didn't know what to expect they said i was going to the psychiatric ward. you had that on. camera and that's when cameron yes i met him and we were always terrified of him why we also through here we all had a fear of him and we didn't want to him to notice us because whatever he did it would never there was a pace and put them the patient was always screaming these are the days and i was a professor you and cameron was a very famous psychiatry's t. was head of the american psychiatric association and the world psychiatric
10:27 am
association he was the top of the field at the same time he seemed pretty much willing to do anything and that for the cia to find a doctor who didn't have limits in a nearby capital with lots of patients to work with last is as subjects with somebody they were interested in supporting patients would come in. with ordinary and psychological emotional problems they'd sign their waivers and then they would just subjected to this bizarre version of extreme sensory deprivation isolation for for up to a month. one of his favorite things was he had a sort of a football helmet with a tape recorder in it that would play a tape and look up to 500000 times say things like my mother hates me and he
10:28 am
would let the brain with rogue stench of deprivation and kind of psychological emotional assault well. what's working i mean it's garbage. what he did was he would put people in your mess of a lecture shack and he would give it to them in a prolonged basis along with what he called sleep fair play his ideal was one sure way the brain clean stupid white bad to say the a buried behavior in the bad ideas the ideas that were messing up people's minds and you could program in their ideas. i was 1st hospitalized. i was about 60. 60 half the
10:29 am
doctors push me into a sleep there. and that was it for about 3 weeks in in a sort of a deep sleep but i don't remember getting up to go to the washroom i don't i just remember that the doctor came in occasionally to feed me and that was it and then suddenly after a while there was another case and it came in and she was an older one into slept in the other bed when i started to wake up i saw these patients and these patients were into some of them they had earphones and headphones i don't know if they did any of that to me because when i was the 1st 3 weeks i don't know what happened but this was the patterning. this doctrine of psychological torture that developed. through research on the
10:30 am
death of the 19 fifties and was codified in the bar counter intelligence and target and manual. it has 2 basic techniques on which all the rest of the procedure is to run oneness sensory deprivation and the other is self inflicted pain. the cia trained allied agencies in the techniques so in effect you know knowing about dissemination about diffused send these techniques to other armies could you take an ordinary individual drafted or recruit and make a person become an affective interrogator. and it seems that milgram experiment
10:31 am
was likely part of this project. but i learned of incidents such as the destruction of millions of men women and children perpetrated by the nazis in world war 2 how is it possible i ask myself that ordinary people will courteous and decent in everyday life can act callously in you mainly without any limitations of conscience. under what conditions would a person obey authority who commanded actions and went against conscience these are exactly the questions that i wanted to investigate at yale university. at the moment sperm a very simply was similar to torture this was one not all the research we've been describing is the impact of interrogation upon the subject. had another agenda the impact of interrogation upon the interrogator if he were to indicate
10:32 am
a wrong answer he would say wrong then tell him the number of balls you're going to get and. then give him the punishment. and read the correct word pair once he got an ordinary people who fit by all the regular scales very normal americans and then he subjected them under false color to doing what he called an educational experiment in trying to encourage people to apply ever higher voltages as a false patient kept on getting making mistakes here but. in fact milgram was able to encourage at least in his 1st experiments i think close to 70 percent to go on to apply highly dangerous and sometimes fatal shocks to get that man thinking that. do you mean that. you know what i mean i mean time i learned likes it or not we must go on until now i don't know
10:33 am
although i've used to take the responsibility and yet i heard that. i'm not meet under current. international essential if you continue teaching this to money life here and i mean do you think it's wrong for you just to let him live. i mean i'm going to take responsibility for any have was that i don't know i'm responsible for anything that happens here continue. next the slow. dance trial music answer plays. out and 95 mile dance. he did this simply with a very simple thing putting the person behind a wall and having a person with a white lab coat telling them that they needed to continue very ordinary people can be influenced by situations and it's one of the implications of both the milgram
10:34 am
experiment the zimbardo it's. this stanford prison experiment was i think a unique attempt to answer that question of what makes some people behave in a good way but what makes some people behave in a bad way and so the idea was let's. let's find an evil place and present everywhere in the world the evil places and let's fill this evil place was only good people. to get the students involved i had convinced the palo alto police department to make a mock arrest of all the students who were going to prison is and then they came
10:35 am
down to the basement of stanford psychology department the place where the prison study was done. the idea is prison is made to feel inferior insignificant worthless the most important thing is to take away their name they become a number and of course given they have smocks it with no underpants behind is showing. like 1st hour in there it was humiliating was also abrupt was quick it was just you know take them off put this on and then i got dusted with baking soda which was supposed to be easy to delouse or. i was limitless. what zimbardo did was a very cheap dark off of. the kind of thing that milgram was doing
10:36 am
not only zimbardo. i think you know the guard called john wayne believed that ethics don't matter is the environment is artificial and that's not true all life is real life. we needed to get tougher with the prisoners. and it could well be that we were instructed by the experimenters to get tough in fact i don't think we considered ourselves to be a subject of the experiment we were merely a tool of the researchers to get the results they wanted from the real subjects which we thought were the prisoners and i decided to become the nastiest prison guard that i could make myself where i am wilder than oh god here it is running or you want to leave and i. will get off get off them.
10:37 am
and then you will use my. magic with. 3 more. than. i was responsible for coming up with all these routines that i would put the prisoners through where i'd have them stand in a line recites their numbers do push ups do jumping jacks. i have never once stopped to think that these prisoners were suffering any harm or any damage. we're not we're not beating anybody we're just sort of applying psychological pressure on them come on. they're all there it hard for me i did it. how does it hard just a thing that a moment people can be like and yeah and let me in on some knowledge that that i've
10:38 am
never experienced 1st hand i read about it i've read a lot about it but i've never experienced it firsthand i've never seen someone turn that way and i know you're a nice guy you know well you and this what would you have. i don't know it might play out spectacularly in the military so the connections would be much further down the road it would be particularly. in the iraq war and in the setting up of get mo and all of that. and by the time you get to 2001 it's already this cultural artifact and so it is going to be picked up by. by anyone for any permanent.
10:39 am
kind of people held records on are not there because they stole because. they were not common from of. their enemy combatants and terrorists who were be detained for acts of war against our country and that is why different rules staff to plan. and mine do. the continuity is extraordinary. if you look at a sketch of the cubicle and of the student volunteer at mcgill university and then if you look forward to 2002 when the 1st al qaeda suspects are
10:40 am
being confined at camp x.-ray a month on i'm over there and goggles gloves and earmuffs that look. god trust like that 957 sketch. after 911 all of us working at ph our realized that the. with very likely be a huge problem of interrogation gone wild meaning torture cruel inhuman and degrading t. treatment. the use of extreme isolation was one of the range of techniques that were employed by officials interrogators and so forth literally starting all the way back in 2002
10:41 am
for many many days and that is just unbelievably destructive. and they began confining people on tunnel they moved to. having psychologists do in it is with patients is for an additional flaws individual sources of trauma and security and then they they also discovered because they were going then and with with muslims. muslim males are.
10:42 am
upset by nudity and also by female physical content and then fear of don't. race has always played a role in american torture it's the american torture techniques are part of old military punishments punishments that were used on slaves. and. and you might find that strange but there was one area where slaves were never whipped but used. clean techniques on them so they didn't leave marks and that was if you're going to sell a slave because a slave that had whip marks means that they were not going to obey and so a clean slave was so got a higher price. the cotton industry in the southern delta states of the united states depended completely on torture. over the course of 4 decades human beings
10:43 am
by using their bodies as a technological form as a technological machine were able to multiply by 8 times the amount of cotton an individual person could pick in a single day so the use of torture is absolutely tied at the root from the very canny. in these kinds of cases. many people in the system. of the people who are imposing these conditions believe that ordinary punishment is too good for these people and a lot of it is about the other disorder that religiously ethnically. nationally
10:44 am
culturally it's easier. that it would be to some would from your own community to do that. so. in guantanamo. as secretary defense rumsfeld appointed a commander jeffrey miller whose job it was to extract information and geoffrey miller made up a cd or staffed it and in flew to iraq and under the. with the permission of the commander there general sanchez he then comprende training sessions for the interrogators and the stuff at abu ghraib prison where he transmitted the guantanamo and techniques to the abu ghraib stuff
10:45 am
basically the restraints were removed and they were told to get results the thing that became so clear is that what the united states was doing was not a secret it was hidden in plain sight it wasn't really until the photographs from abu ghraib were released which were just you know the tip of the iceberg of what was actually happening that people in this country began actually talking about it. but we didn't know where it was exactly the right thing to do and if i added to my command of that weapon they did send the right signals that. we didn't satisfy them.
10:46 am
service in the mill not all of them i can get the other one is 1600 of them we've only seen off in about 20 maybe 31600 and they say the worst ones. are the ones we haven't seen
10:47 am
so and yes they were violating. military regulations and what they were doing but. they were operating within a system in which they were condition they were structured in order to violate those laws when you arrived at the brave where you aware of what had happened there. almost immediately after we arrived i would ride we were briefed that there was misconduct but we weren't given details and the interrogators that i knew who had been there during that time didn't they didn't talk about it so we we didn't know it i learned everything through the news. we understood the geneva conventions to mean that absolutely you know you knew you couldn't you couldn't harm anybody in your care
10:48 am
that your primary responsibility was there will be in rather than putting you in distress but then we were confused and then of you know of course we got these memos from the justice department and from the pentagon. authorizing the use of much more harsh techniques. we started docking those techniques when i was stationed in mosul. among them were stress positions sleep deprivation. inducing hypothermia. state and we could put them in distress using dogs this is this is a so-called slippery slope so the take the gloves off policy allowed american interrogators from going from a certain list of techniques that were let's say allowed and even those who are already torture to doing extreme things rape and sodomy and you know
10:49 am
the most extreme forms of physical and psychological print tally. you can just torture somebody on a whim without knowing how to do it and the reality of course is that torture like any physical skill right requires training requires practice it requires an institutional setting a built environment really you need to have this institution my space physical space in which you can perform torture we want you know we we want to be successful i was against the war you know what liberal i didn't vote for george bush. but i wanted to do my job well you know i felt like you know if i could be successful and
10:50 am
get intelligence from people then we could end the war quickly and it would be better for iraq better for for us my people sure. in recent days is going to focus has. betrayed our values and some of the reputation of our country. with 6 or 7 investigations under way. the military justice system that has value. we know that those. wherever they are brought to justice. i was angry at our leadership because i i knew that they were prosecuting interrogators and guards and leadership wasn't being held accountable i.
10:51 am
i was disappointed in myself and. a reviewer there was terrible so i was right i was very angry when the abu ghraib trial happened. i got a call from the lawyer for chip frederick. and he asked me to act as part of the defense team i said well the person that you should really talk to is this imparato he ran this experiment in the 1970 s. and the situations of abu ghraib as far as i can tell are those conditions that are also reproduced in the. zimbardo experiments chip frederick he's. the man here he was the one who had the idea of putting electrodes on in the hood. his lawyer said the problem now is the military want to use him in
10:52 am
a show trial in baghdad. in abu ghraib not only not a single senior office that went to trial not a single scene officer got a call letter of reprimand in fact in some cases they even got promoted the offices so it's it's the people at the top always take care of the people at the time. when we're still evaluating how we are going to approach the whole issue of interrogations detentions and so forth and i don't believe that anybody has but the law on the other hand i also have a belief that we need to look forward as los as opposed to looking looking backwards. look forward will look backward while forward is going to be like backward if you
10:53 am
don't do something about what happened in the past nobody has been held accountable for the torture that happened in the past and for this among other people i fall president obama essentially he gave everybody dick cheney donald rumsfeld he gave them all a free pass. to push w. bush they're all going to be rehabilitated they're all going to be treated as great statesmen one day i mean they gave president obama a nobel prize for not being george w. bush. the question of course the world cup betting around. you know boarding is doesn't work as torture works doesn't work people that have information that are part of an underground up or run a terrorist organization a revolution urbanisation a con the certain ization whatever organized form of collective i want to ip they won't. know. and the people that you pick up that are
10:54 am
innocence yes you'll. turn them to pieces you'll store them you'll ruin them. i think that a few of the people that passed passed through my hands and interrogator didn't have intelligence but most of the vast majority of the people that i dealt with were just being picked up because they were males of military age and they were just get swept up and in these raids i don't i don't think torture is always being used as a method to gain information or or confessions it's often just being used out of out of anger and fear. here in the united states we have this picture of torture as something that is done by the lonely person the lonely the man who does it more in sorrow than in anger because he is absolutely
10:55 am
forced to because so many lives depend on it is willing to take the moral stain and the moral pain on him and in order to save all these people there was always this anxiety in american politics which is that democracy kinds of makes makes us weaker and less capable of taking the real things that we should be able to do there's a very gendered masculinist sort of notion behind this real bad torture. and democracy makes a sissies. in the middle east we have people shopping their heads off christians we have things that we have never seen before i would bring back waterboarding and i going back a hell of a lot worse then waterboarding. one of the things that we need to consider now it has become quite an issue is how many
10:56 am
of these soldiers who used to participate in. these kinds of american techniques are now policemen and immigration officers who manage back sickens and hispanics and other sorts of things in interrogations today there's already beginning to be evidence that these old techniques including freezing rooms. sleep deprivation all these things are now being used on on on immigrants and children so this is one of the terrible things about techniques is that they circulate between war and home and whatever you do in war comes home ready. if we keep torture clean 'd then we can feel that the thing that's being done to
10:57 am
protect us isn't really so bad we have become used to the idea that it is a legitimate moral stance that we do anything we need to in order to feel safe to feel secure and in a bizarre way it's as if the government is trying to make a deal with us you let us do whatever we want over here on the dark side and in return i promise you will never die it's like this fake promise of immortality. but of course we could die and history the american empire is written 50 years from now historians might have to say as french restaurants have said about france and algeria that that something was lost in the u.s. or to a moral authority that made america war leader sacrificed for this the shimmer of affective interrogation. why. why.
10:58 am
why. why. why why the political. to the point of strong opinions just a clear position some international perspective such temperatures are once again rising between the u.s. and iran so will the 2 college enemies be able to renegotiate the around nuclear deal but don't trump turned his back on the choice yet seen will the downward spiral continue find out on to the point. to the point. cut us on d w. and you hear me now yes yes we can hear you and how the last 2 years gentlemen
10:59 am
sound so now we'll bring you an angle our man caught as you've never had to have a surprise yourself with what is possible who is magical really what moves and want to call someone who talks to people who follows her along the way i admire those and critics alike how is the world's most powerful woman shaping her legacy joining us from eccles law stops. to mention how many push. ups rodolph in the uk right now climate change different top stories. vicious lifelessly went on just one week. how much work can really get. we still have time to ask trundling. success. to subscribe for more news like this.
11:00 am
this is news life for me and mark police opened fire to disperse protesters. the dramatic scenes the latest sign of tension between the military establishment and pro-democracy demonstrators who say they will not back down also coming up.

18 Views

info Stream Only

Uploaded by TV Archive on