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tv   REV  Deutsche Welle  May 19, 2021 9:30pm-10:00pm CEST

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like to sing along to come from super majority of the interactive exercises everything is online, mobile interactive gym. and so when i say fire in itself is not an eggs. your government has the intention of allowing a sovereign palestinian state to be created. does it the patterson is refusing again to come to say with a violent confrontation between israel and the palestinians has gone into its 2nd week with concern mounting around the world at the high number of civilian deaths, especially in gossip. i guess this week and jerusalem is michael freeman, policy advisor, israel's foreign minister when his country. now listen to this key criticisms being leveled by the biden administration and go back to seeking
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a 2 state solution. the michael freeman. welcome to contact zone. thank you for having me. last sunday, israeli forces killed at least 42 people in gaza, including at least 10 children that was in one day. your prime minister is on record as saying how my son islamic jihad paid and will pay a very heavy price for the belligerents that blood is forfeit. well, by now the death toll is well over a 100, and the 61 children are reported dead is not enough blood that's been forfeited. this is not about, you know, that the death of innocents for us is a tragedy. and this is about come us who've been firing rockets that is right and making and making sure the come off. can't do that again. you know the 3700 rockets fired from within garza into israeli towns and cities and villages. and so the
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civilian population and we are doing what we need to do to defend our civilians. any country would do in order to do that, i understand, but what's an acceptable level of casualties for you among the palestinian population for this punishment operation of yours? well, there's no acceptable level of casualties. we don't want any casualties. every civilian casualty, every loss of life innocence is a tragedy before i'm israeli, before someone's palestinian where human beings and the death of an innocent human being is an absolute tragedy. and we need to do everything we can to try and avoid those civilian casualties and do everything we can. and that's what we're doing. and that's what we will continue to do when we, when we, when we're carrying out this operation to reduce come off capability. this is about and trying to make sure that you don't have the ability and don't have the rockets to carry on attacking us. if you want to reduce civilian casualties, why not accept the si, fi that's been offered in those his father countries around the world calling for.
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when a theme firing itself is not a name, the a must be adjusted. i think we have the time to start every but, but every time, every time we've had to cease by the sea fire is only ever lasted 2448 hours a week or 2 weeks, or it's ended up being wrapped as the see thing and come us through the firing, we need to make sure that we, whatever happens now, we have a sustainable period of calm so that this is not something that happens again in a few months time, but rather come off understand that attacking israel is not worth their while. and they will then we will have a long period without any conflict that's in the interest of both is right, isn't palestinian. the death of so many palestinian children raises questions about whether your response has been proportionate. a key factor in determining whether you acted legitimately did you because in the face of it, there's nothing proportionate about killing and injuring 20 times the number of people killed by your enemies. what the issue about proportionality is the water,
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the number of rockets that have being fight us on the threat, the way receiving, you know, ultimately there's a fundamental difference between the democratic state of israel and the radical terrorism is terrorist of come up. whereas we, human beings are the same villians were talking about human being worried about human being, whether they were palestinians, or really absolutely absolutely. the death of human beings on each side is tragic. you know, i'm a father of 2 young children. and when i look at my children, i think about their future and what i want for the future. but i was, i think about palestinian children about their future about what is important for them. i want to see them grow up with hopes i want to see them grow up with the future. i want to see them grow up with the, with, with, with better ideas and opportunities there. but, you know, it's a freeman my, my, my point. but in order to do that, we need to, we need to make sure that there is come out of there, come us of the ones who are feeling the future of palestinian children to freeman.
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you made that point. my point is that you can argue justification and self defense, but it's harder to argue that the scale of damage and bloodshed that you inflict is proportionate, isn't it? that's not much, much harder to argue what we are doing. everything we can, as i said, to avoid civilian casualties. we're using the difference between us. if we use our weapons to defend down civilians and how much uses their civilians to defend their weapons, your hospital is a primary care centers. you're hitting hospitals and primary health care when, when, when, when, when, when, well, where, when we are making sure that what we target weapons supplies and we are targeting, where come after putting their command and control centers. they're deliberately putting their weapon places into into next to schools in next to hospital was into civilian areas. that's what i must do. and if we're going to try and stop, come us from having these weapons and to give the palestinians a better future. we need to destroy these weapons stores and that there's going to
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doesn't really know civility, even if they put that military installations close to hospitals, it doesn't relieve you of the responsibility of sparing those hospitals and medical centers. in the complex situation, you have that responsibility, you don't seem to be following that. when as far as i'm aware, we haven't had any hospitals and in gods, there are 2 things that we do. firstly, we check the number of civilians that there. and if we see there are a number of meetings in the area we call off any air strike or any or anything we're going to do because we want to avoid civilians and we give warnings to all those in the area. if we're going to destroy a building and we're going to do a command and control center from phoning people from giving warning shots in advance, we do everything we possibly can with with those kinds, which is, and as you well know, tim, when western countries face and fight against the terror organization embedded in civilian populations. israel is doing very well writ written relatively in terms of
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avoiding civilian casualties compared to other western countries have had face the same situation. mr. freeman, let's take your destruction of the gaza building, which has the associated press and al jazeera. you claim that hamas also operated from there, but the n g o reporters without borders says it has reason to believe your military, intentionally targeted media organizations and intentionally destroyed their equipment. is that true? are completely reject that's. that's a proposed with suggestion. israel is known for a free and open press. you've been here number of times yourselves, you know, the press, they have complete freedom. we have a democratic system, we have debate, we have numbers of newspapers and televisions, and everybody is free to go about. we have absolutely nothing against the press quite the opposite. we encourage the press to operate air and to shine a light on things. if anything,
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it's come us to do not want the press them do not want people looking at what they're doing well. not born in the house reporters without borders with challenge that it said by the 17th of may, your forces had destroyed the offices of 23 international and local media organizations. that doesn't sound much like an accident. does it more of a pattern? is it when we the building that you refer to we targeted that could come up, come off, had a command and control into that. they were planning terrorist activities against the communities outside the inside is right outside of the god of border. they were planning specific tara operations from within that building and noticed event, our citizens, we decided to stop them being able to attack us. we gave everybody plenty of warning and plenty of time before we destroyed that. i'm not disputing that you gave a warning, but us secretary of state blink and said he's not been given additional intelligence material about the attack on this building. but he has pointedly declined to support your declared motivation for the strike. my question is,
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will you assist an independent investigation which is calling for when, when we have provided, as you said, we provide intelligence information to our allies in america, which clearly show the status of that building being used by the terror organization. and we hope that we will be able to, in the near future declassify more of that information. so the world can see exactly how come up with cynically manipulating the media, manipulating the civilian infrastructure in order to put themselves in that building is supreme. and let's just look at some of the background to this latest violence that we're weeks of clashes in east jerusalem before the fighting began in the gaza strip. and in some of your cities, why within those serious attempts to de escalate the growing tensions? well actually we made a number of attempts to de escalate the support putting out putting a barrier stop palestinians gathering in the evening at the damascus gate that was
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pretty inflammatory while we when and after a couple of days we removed the barriers, but we did, we took another a number of other steps as well. we banned jews from going to the temple mount the holiest sites in judaism. we banned them from going up there, including during the jerusalem day, the jerusalem dry day parade, but we hold every year. we change the roots of that. the court case that was going on in the supreme court. we delayed it for, for a month. the number of in century balloon attacks that were being fired over from gaza, setting fire, to vos swain's of agricultural, agricultural land in the border inside israel. we didn't respond in any way to that . we did everything we possibly could to de escalate, but come on, you did, would you everything did you? because you had police firing rubber bullets inside the mosque, the 3rd holiest shrine in his lamb and in the middle of the holy month of ramadan. now that wasn't calculated to come tension, was it with tim,
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from ever since israel has been in control of the the old fifty's since 967, we've guaranteed freedom of religion and freedom of worship. and every year, hundreds of thousands of muslims come to the temple come to the temple mount and they pray at the alex and most during ramadan, hundreds of thousands of once every year. you know, my question, i'm talking about foreign rubbish. i'm coming to it. now i'm coming to it, i'm coming to it. i'm coming to hundreds of thousands of moves and pray peacefully . this year. for some reason, the. there were a small group of people of agitators big, big, dictated to buy a comma, who decided to gather stones and gather rocks, and gather fireworks and gather slaves, and to throw them on the jewish worshippers at the western war below to throw fireworks at them to throw rocks at them to attack the police who were in the area and the police like any other country, decided to restore order because praying is something we encourage. praying and worship is something we want on the temple mount having a group of radicals and extremists who are going to be attacking and preventing
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people from worship. that's not acceptable when we acted as any country would to restore lauren or the lower orders important very wrong and they say they were being provoked by jewish extremist. mr. mr. freeman, even though the fighting has gone on, the white house is signal serious concern, not just about your evictions of palestinians. you mentioned the ongoing court case which, which was delayed, but about the frequent bulldozing of palestinian homes on may. the 11th joe biden spokesperson said, us officials had spoken candidly to you about these issues and about how those evictions and demolitions work against what she called our common interest in achieving a solution to the conflict. in other words, stop it. are you going to stop it? these evictions and well, while they there that the situation and shape gera to court case, we have
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a number of palestinians who live in and in these, in these buildings and changed our policy members who live in east jerusalem. and there is an ongoing court case, and there's a number of them who say that they don't recognize the rights of the jewish people who say they own the building. there are a number of people who are number be assigned the lease with the people who are in the building and therefore recognize, but it stopped paying. it's gone through the court rover 10 years. and the supreme court in israel will make a ruling on this. and the supreme court, and the judiciary is right, is recognized as an independent judiciary, which is well respected throughout the world for it's for it's independence and for it's judy prudence. and so it's not just shake gera, the white house he's talking about last year, according to the u. n. u. demolished 848 palestinian structure in the west bank and jerusalem. displacing almost a 1000 people, as i said, according to you and are you going, are you going to stop doing this? because this is what is causing concern at the white house,
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the highest levels of the us administration, the way we, we will, we want to encourage a piece processing discussion with the palestinians when people are building illegally, then the civil, the civil authorities, make sure that people don't build it equally, those buildings can often be dangerous. they can be in stable or unstable, and they can cause a dangerous both to the inhabitants of the people around them. but the real and all of these issues that have been talking about need to be discussed in conversations with the palestinians face to face and the palestinians refusing again to come to negotiations with us. you know, my, my, my boss, the, for the foreign minister was called repeatedly for the palestinians to come to the table and to instantly goes jasons with us and to move these issues forward. so that's really what we would like to see happen. this white house, once a political settlement that leads to a 2 state solution, but your government has the intention of allowing a sovereign palestinian state to be created. does it what the 1st stage needs to be?
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the pallet thing comes from negotiate and table. there's nothing we can't talk about where at the end of the process and you can, you can we've had a raft of contradictory statements from your government over the years about how they're not going to allow a palestinian state in 2015. your prime minister said benjamin netanyahu, if i'm elected, there won't be a palestinian state in 2017. he said, what i'm prepared to give the palestinians isn't exactly a state with all the past, but a state minus and you'll cabinet minister saki headache me, said last june. israeli settlers don't need to worry because there will never be a palestinian state. so that's why i asked you whether you have ruled out a 2 state solution. it things from these comments that you absolutely have. what i said to the important thing is to stop and go stations and see where the negotiations go. but it's really well we need to,
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we need to we also need to see what any palestinian state would be if a palestinian state is going to be garza or it's going to be serial or it's going to be iraq or it's going to be another failed state that doesn't have any rights and has internal conflict on war and bombings. and there isn't an attacking israel as a neighbor then that's certainly not in the interest of israel. i would argue it's not an interest of the palestinians, and it's not in the interest of the neighborhood. so we have to establish exactly what form of state we're talking about. and we have to have negotiations with the palestinians. and if the kind of thing is a willing to talk to us and to negotiate with us, i am sure that we will come to an answer and something that works both israel and the palestinians it needs to do. you've already got a thing and you've already given your answers with the quote. so i just gave you, president biden said last week, he wants to see steps to enable the palestinian people to enjoy dignity, security, and freedom. the implication being that they don't have any of those things when it
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israel going to take those steps. well, we would like to see the same thing. i want to see the palestinians have a better future. i want to see them have freedom. i want to see them have all of those, all of those things that you mentioned to him. but at the moment as you know, god was controlled by us. the palestinian areas are controlled by by the palestinian authority. they haven't had free elections in 15 years in that, in those areas there in garza, come out who received billions of dollars of 8 instead of spending that money on hospitals on schools, on even vaccines for cobra. they've spent that money on building tara networks on building rockets on building tunnels for the palestinians to have a better future, which is in it's in my interest. i want the palestinians to have a better future. i want their children to have the same hopes and the same opportunities that my children have been ordered to do, that they need to have a leadership interest. and if you genuinely wanted those things you were talking
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about, you do something about the fact that millions of palestinians in the occupied territories have no right to let the government, whose armies rule, whose army rules over them. even palestinians who are permanent residence of jerusalem can't take part in national elections. why not? well, the palestinians who live in the west bank and gaza can take part in elections at the past 30. would have them in 2006 was the last elections they have for that. and they haven't had rail. i'm talking about elections when a government of israel, the occupying power in west bank in east jerusalem, a senate a bunny saunders himself, a jew, put it over the weekend. israel remains the 17 authority in the land of israel and palestine. and rather than preparing for peace and justice, its been entrenching its army corps and democratic control. i suppose you'd say he doesn't know what he's talking about. what i think we have to separate between
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israel and the, the west bank and gaza inside israel. every citizen jew, arab christian more slim, it doesn't matter. who has the right to vote, has full democratic, right? you know, we've, as you know, we've had 4 elections in the 1000000 in the west bank, gaza, nice to meet someone who don't know who don't have the live on the israeli, the patients. but the palestinians in the west bank and gaza have autonomy and have their own elections for their own leadership. the fact the leadership haven't held election in 15 years is not an issue that is where i have to deal with. that's an issue for the palestinian leadership, the palestinians in the world, and the palestinians offer to me on it. and i step of the process and the know of course they got that also me and they got that process. the fact they haven't had an election in 15 years surely can't be blank. we're not sure about that rights to take part in us the latest human rights report,
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but then i part of it but tempered them, but then they are they are the only thing you living in the west bank on israeli citizen. and as you said, you're doing your rule because is your supreme court told you back in 2004, you hold that area in belligerent occupation. and now you're telling me you're in agreement. but we're, we're, but in international agreements, we saw with the palestinians with the pallet 30, they are, the response will be with them and to hold elections. and they haven't held elections for their own people. you seem to be avoiding the fact that the latest state department human rights report 2 months ago, highlighted widespread discrimination, suffered by palestinians and other minorities under your effective rule. have you read this report or don't you bother with them? of course we read all the reports so you will know that it says arab muslims, along with christians, jews, and ethiopian citizens face persistent institutional and societal discrimination.
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exactly the same criticism that it flags up year after year about which israel does precisely nothing. why is that when i don't agree that it does nothing. i think that israel is taking significant steps to to, to address these issues. but you're right, like other countries in the world we have, we have full, you know, there are every country, every democratic country in the world has full as well. perfect. i'm not here to tell you that israel's a perfect company. so just to massively discriminate, again we've got we've got, well, we've got problems and we've got challenges. and if you're talking about israeli arabs and you're talking about other minorities with israel, it's an issue that we have to deal with. this is where you were challenging. i'm for example, in the about but it was being worried about when i, when i don't think, i don't think we have ignored it. for example, in higher education in the last 7 years, there's been an 80 percent increase in the number of israeli arabs who are going
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into higher education. there are programs to invest significantly in the last 3 to 5 years. the amounts of money that we've invested in the arab sector in society is greater than anything we've invested ever before. we are consistently working on these issues. but you're right tim. but what about, what about how, for instance, well, the report has that all those provides that all residents of jerusalem are fully and equally eligible for public services. the municipality and other authorities failed to provide sufficient social services, education, infrastructure and emergency planning for palestinian neighbourhood. why is that discrimination, mister freeman, why? what? because, as i said, you were working to address some of these issues. but if we take from just as an example of the recent covert outbreak and the vaccination campaign that is right around most successful campaign, we vaccinated every single israeli, whether they would do with they were arab, the christian wisdom,
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every single person was vaccinated. it didn't matter who they were or where they were, they were vaccinated according to age, and only according to age. and then as they went down everybody's been vaccinated. and that's the reason that today we don't have cove it as a serious issue inside israel because our entire population, every single person do arab from jerusalem, east, jerusalem, west islam from the north of the country, the south, the country everybody's been vaccinated, including by the way, hundreds of thousands of palestinians that we've also vaccinated, and a lot of time to say in the west bank and, and eastern them who were turned out of their houses in the middle of the pandemic . you don't mention that mr. freeman in the time we got left. if the bible administration office to restock torps will you sit down and the dress, the institutional and societal discrimination to which the us, your closest ally says, you've subjected the palestinians. when you do that, we can calling on the pallet thing to return to negotiations and to have
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discussions with our. so if, if anybody can bring the palestinians to the table, then that would be a positive thing. we need the palestinian authority to do that. we need them to come to the table and say they are willing to talk to us and willing to discuss a better future for israelis. i'm for palestinians were certainly in favor of them . a few years ago, your former prime minister barak warned you that if the occupation continued, israel, he said, would inevitably become either non jewish or non democratic human rights group, say you've chosen the non democratic option. donald trump didn't mind that, but it seems that biden and his party do mind, are you ready for rocky? right. with this administration is rollin america. i have a very, very strong relation. we have a very strong relation with president by doing the, by the administration. when we've seen over the last couple of days in the last couple of weeks, america and president biden steadfast support for israel and israel's right defend itself. and that israel and the american relations of bipartisan and found use and
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where base is far less steadfast support from the u. s. congress, particularly from democratic senators who have now floated the idea of holding up arms shipments. do you because they don't like what you've been doing with the palestinians ever. the last few days that knew that hadn't happened before? there were the relationship, but the ration with his route in america is, is a long standing and it's bipartisan. and it really does cross old both parties in america. and we see of, you know, they're just kidding me. and parts of the democratic party, you know that what i said to we have a very strong relationship with the, with the democratic party, which is historic. you know, when i, when i come into the office every single day in the ministry of foreign affairs, downstairs it okay. very pen. that was used by president truman to sign recognition of the state of israel freeman. right. mccrass's, president,
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i'm afraid we're out of time. thanks very much for being on contract. so thank you . thank you very much. the news news news, news, news.
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news. the oh the news tips for your budget, the mentor coordinator check spots personally and some great help her morals to boot the w travel off we go
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the the me oh oh the can because you oh oh no. no.
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the it's been ongoing quest for a bit to future. the spring began in 2011 people stood up against correct rulers and dictatorship. almost all these moments have left the box of my memory. it was originally, it was an incredible feeling that we were liberated they had hoped for more security, more freedom, more dignity, have their hopes for 10 years after the arab spring. rebellion starts june 7th on d. w. the
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news . this is the w news live from berlin tonight. the us president tells israel's prime minister he expects to see de escalation today, but that is not what has happened. benjamin at yahoo says he's determined to continue the gaza offensive as violence ranges on for a 10th day. a moss has responded with renewed rockets, fire into israel, sending people they are running for cover. also coming up tonight, clashes.


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