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tv   To the Point  Deutsche Welle  March 25, 2022 12:30pm-1:01pm CET

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ali finally become the person he's always wanting to be and i haven't despair, badly going back to reproduce. that will go with i was born in stuart's march 30th on the w. ah, the warren ukraine has triggered a seismic shift in politics with far reaching international repercussions. german economics minister, robert ha, back. whose mission was to help germany go green, head to the middle east seeking new sources of fossil fuels. a u. s. president who wanted to take care of the home front, travels to europe, looking to shore up a united front with you and nato allies can either deliver results that helped stem the conflict and its effects. we're asking biden versus put in. can the u. s. stop the war and ukraine.
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welcome to to the point. it is a great pleasure to greet our guests sariah. so hardy nelson is a talk show host at the common ground. berlin podcast, and former, corresponded for the us broadcaster and p. r. michel tillman is diplomatic correspondent at the german weekly did site, and it's a great pleasure to welcome back to the show of my colleague roman con charice. he is a ukranian by birth, and it works with d. w as russia language service in thought. and i'd like to begin a if i may, with you sariah, following the trump presidency and the disastrous us exit from afghanistan. many people doubted whether there was still no any will on the part of the us to lead.
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is that different? now? would you say that u. s. president biden is right. when he says the u. s. is back. well, uh the us may be back or at least the will, but he certainly is not benefiting or in the numbers or in the polls, or in terms of his, the support that he's getting from the american public. i mean, i think there is there still a lot of doubt about whether he can manage this crisis, i mean, and out as what the americans are saying. and the fact that he's having that kind of a difficult in a us sort of begs the question, what is it going to be like in europe over these next days, as he's meeting with leaders here? and michelle, as, as diplomatic correspondent, how would you describe biden's mission on this trip to europe? what can he accomplish and what does he need to accomplish? well, i think he needs to come up with her with a response together with the europeans, and that is the challenge with
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a response to the ever more brutal war going on in ukraine and a response also to a possible war crimes or to the expulsion of old parts of big cities in ukraine, m and of course they will after deal also with the very latest challenges for european unity and american unity as far as gas and oil deliveries are concerned. so holding the whole club together, that will be the main challenge over the next 48 hours. in fact, we've seen a remarkable degree of western unity do you think that is now winning? well, and i, i don't see it yet because we have of course, peculiarities, like victo all bon prime minister of hungary, you always begs to be a bit different. but then we see, finally when it comes down to the final vote is he falls in line and and so i don't
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see the, the, the unity crumbling yet. but it might come further down the road. roman and excuse me, i miss pronounce your last name or would i introduce you? but let, let me ask you this, and many observers have said from the beginning that this conflict is really about russia versus the u. s. would you say that that is right? and if so, what could biden actually do to change rushes calculus? well, i would disagree. i think it's a, it's a conflict between russia and the west of the west. as a civilization and the worst as a system, political system and economic system. and this is how russia is, has been seeing this conflict for years and years. but it's not actually new. the west refused to see it like that. the west has been looking at it as a conflict between russia and ukraine, which is just a battlefield. and i think to your question,
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how could the u. s. a maybe stop it? i think i'm looking back for some weeks, maybe months prior to this conflict. we've seen how the u. s. administration reacted differently. they disclose their information that they had about this plan of, of this war. this was new and this allowed the u. s. and its allies, a u. k, and some other nato countries to supply you. craig, with weapons, and that was very, very important for ukraine because it is, it's those weapons that ukraine received in the couple of weeks before the war from the west that enabled ukraine to stand firm. without those weapons, i'm sure russia would have seized a much bigger territorial ukraine by now. so i think the past for the coming days and weeks is to continue in that direction and i want to make weapons for your grand. exactly. and i want to pick up on that point in just
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a moment. it's become commonplace to say that vladimir putin under estimated the west. but the reverse is also true. long as the list of political leaders who conjure the belief that put in would act rationally. and avoid dragging russia and ukraine into a ruinous war. and joe biden was amongst them when us president joe biden, and vladimir putin shook hands in geneva last june. the russian president already started messing his troops on the border with eastern ukraine. hooton's words from back then, now sound like a mockery. why did it threaten the leaders of 2 countries? of 2 main nuclear powers are meeting to make the world said less than the stable, not yours and prosperous home for all the people on our planet retailing, gnashing plenty of 8 months later putting invaded ukraine and by
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responded with sanction. is the aggressor who chose this war and now he in this country will bear the consequences if june is up with the dates of a scholar. the west wants to divide our society by speculating on military losses on the socio economic consequences of sanctions. it was his using its 5th, you call him to achieve a goal along the goal is to destroy russia assertiveness. years ago, it was rushing at i. c. o is a war for the name as the war in ukraine, irreparably destroyed, fine and pollutants relationship. and let me ask that question straight on to a sariah with the additional question. do personal relationships actually matter? it's often bid said that barack obama made an enormous mistake. these a v. putin, when he referred to russia, for example, as a regional power. but do you think it matters these words that are tossed around
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killer or criminal and so on? well, i think it definitely matters. certainly it matters for vladimir putin. you know, he, he's in a very bad spot right now at this stage. i mean, he, i think he's surprised or shocked as perhaps we are, you know, with, with what's been happening in ukraine. the fact that there's been so much pushback and he has no choice, and i don't think he would. i don't think he's going to trust joe biden again, and i don't see how joe biden changes his tone or tune either. i mean, it is interesting in the united states that the republicans are now slowly starting to be very vehemently anti putin. and they're starting to say things. but the question becomes again, if this war does and, and somehow pollutant remains and power, you know, what, what is that relationship going to be like a post this i, i don't know how they come back from this. i think it's is ruinous as the ground and ukraine. the thing is though donald trump idolized vladimir putin, he has
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a weakness, as we know for strong men, but that didn't chain. jenny st. it at the fact that he showed putin respect. well, it didn't accept that a lot of the situation that we're seeing now as a result of the us not taking this seriously. and europeans, not taking it seriously. i mean, it's not just trump, we can go back to the s b d and germany and look at the relationship of various leaders, including a former chancellor, gerhard schroeder and what impact that's had? i mean, you know, russia had a long time to, to get to this point to be able to, to, to launch this invasion my should michelle way. and on the same point, if you would, as sariah just mentioned. we've also seen a lot of german leaders trying to cultivate dialogue with put in, including the current chancellor or left shots. did any of that help to moderate his actions? no, it does not. this policy is clearly failed and i think it's, it's striking to see how right after 2014, which was basically everybody's talking about
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a wake up call right now. i think we have the catastrophe unfolding before our eyes . but the wake up call was definitely in 2014, but they didn't draw the right conclusions. and it, it happened right after 2014 and 15. or that the social democrats and germany invented or north stream to together with gas from and the gas, if i'm glad that brought, i would bring a gas directly into germany from russia. exactly and circumventing ukraine and so, and that basically was all done after after the annexation of crimea. and the problem is though they all thought they were a lot of leaders in europe. and of course, you mentioned donald trump, who thought we could somehow do business with vladimir putin. but what we did not see, and what they did not see was the stead you incremental ready colo zation of proteins, nationalism which he had adopted in 201112 as an id all
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a g to keep russia under control. that no man biden has long had quite good relations with ukraine. and in fact, when he was vice president in the administration of barack obama, he gave his blessing to u. s. military training for ukrainian forces. has that made a difference? is that one reason why we're seeing those forces really able to hold off or even push back the russians? first, if i made just a remark to what sariah has just said, i do not think that personal relations between putting in biden meta and in this conflict. of course, they are important, but i think they're overestimated because for russia, there is so much at stake. as i've said, russia sees itself in a, in a almost biblical struggle with the worst. so they would have invaded ukraine. no
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matter what's the name of the u. s president is just to remind you, a bomber was very soft and put in 2009 the reset policy after the war in georgia. so obama was very respectful to put in. it didn't stop the russian president from planning this war. and i'm sure this war has been planned for many, many years. so come back to a question about biden in ukraine. yes, he has a special relations to a relation to ukraine. he's are the 1st u. s. president who knows rec, or ukraine very well. as a vice president during the obama years, and he was supporting ukraine militarily for the past years. but it was the trump administration that actually started to arm ukraine in 2018. we have to remember that. thank you very much. sariah during the troops build up in january and february,
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and we heard this mentioned earlier by repeatedly warned that the u. s. did believe a full scale invasion was in the offing, and in fact, they provided intelligence information on that. at the same time, president biden made it clear that there would be no u. s. boots on the ground and no us planes in the air. was he right to rule that out so firmly in advance and is the u. s. do think doing enough to support ukraine now? well, i think it's a very dangerous dance on a tightrope that, that the president biden, that nato, that the west is having to do here. i mean, i think it was the correct thing to do because i agree to disagree with with roman . but i do think that that basically the landscape was set for, you know, by the way, by the softness of western actions for prudent to do what he did. i mean, i, i don't think he would have invaded no matter what. so i don't think that you know, and you have to be careful. the man has his hand on the button. i mean what if he
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were to launch chemical or biological or nuclear weapons in response because he feels he has no way out. you can't corner him, you know, to that extent because we just don't know what he's capable of. and so i think that that was necessary for those statements to be made and for them to continue to be made. it's a very fine line as to how much support we can give, but i think we have seen a ratcheting up and we have seen the u. s. starting to deliver more, but they just have to be very careful not to cross that line. and i think it's, it's really difficult for president biden to, to walk that line or to continue to walk that line. let me ask you michelle about that line. we're hearing some people would say, rather hair splitting discussions, both in the u. s. and here about offensive versus defensive weapons, and whether they could be delivered to ukraine, about whether a particular types of weapons and systems are possibly would be considered a provocation, or whether they, in fact would be a legitimate form of support. does all of that make sense?
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is it commensurate with modern warfare and beyond that? is it, it can be, be sure that putting actually things in the same categories that we do well, he opened, he said that he sees the western arms deliveries to ukraine as a kind of intervention for international law. it is not in russia has intervened in the same same way in many other conflicts or has the u. s. m. but what does i think important? here's the chris of what, what kind of weapons might stop him or what kind of deliveries are sensible and which are not. i think the weapons ukraine is getting right now. have proved very effective. the entire tank and anti air miss sites and weapons. they got from alice western airlines and also from germany after,
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after all, a long time of decision making and very effective. so are the turkish drones the by rock tar drones. and what would be entirely ineffective? is there no flights own, for example, simply because what the russians are doing now, they're firing cruise missiles from the caspian sea. they are firing from inside russia. they can actually do the same as the u. s. is doing over many hundreds of kilometers. so a for no flights on, if you extended to ukraine, you have to extended actually over great parts of russia. if you don't do it, it's ineffective. and so if you're not ready to do that, then don't start with roman. the war is currently at a stalemate. in fact, there's more and more talk of a potential victory for ukraine. what does that mean for negotiations to resolve the conflict? and do you think there is a role in talks for president biden?
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of course there is, i wouldn't say that we can talk of ukrainian victory at this moment. it's too early and are russia is definitely waging a long term war on. so it will continue for months icing. i think at least, and of course, there is a role for the us for the bite and administration ukraine has been asking. since we have our nor normandy format anymore, we don't have the means agreement to load east in ukraine. these formats are dead. a since russia has invaded ukraine, so we will have to establish a new format. so far we have seen talks direct talks between russia and ukraine. but i think when we come closer to a real solution of the problem, a ceasefire and an agreement, then there will be of course, a place for the u. s. at the table, or more even more, i think without the u. s. no agreement can be reached at are we seeing any progress
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in any of these other diplomatic channels? whether it's the talks in bell, i realist, the talks that have been held in turkey. do you really see any signs of true progress? no, not at all. i'm very pessimistic about those stocks. it's important that they talk . one thing that can come out of it are the humanitarian corridors, the so called corridors, which actually did not work so far as they should be, but they're awesome and people's lives are saved. so we should can, we should continue in that direction, but as far as the ceasefire is concerned, i think russia has no interest at all to stop fighting to stop at this moment. russia is getting ready for a longer war, and ukraine is desperately trying to negotiate a ceasefire. but i think the chances are very little leah michelle way,
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and on the same question, if you would please, do you think that biden could open a channel potentially directly to president, put in put it has so far, refused to negotiate directly with the ukrainian president lensky yeah, well i think about him could of course, and i mean he is done so before and i'm i think also put in what would speak to him, but i thing to no avail because basically, and he, i agree with roman that indeed protein wants to bring this war to the end, i think it is his mission. it is what he deems in his historical position on, on the same pedestrian like with peter the great and joseph stalin as the big conqueror and that he wants to bring it to an end. and i think it's very difficult to stop him and that is also why he doesn't want to talk to zelinski despite all the
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problems the russian army is having. and they could definitely need a breathing, some breathing space now. but hootin is not willing to give it because simply he wants to his personal popularity. his position in history in russia is dependent on the successful end of this war. on this point of view, sariah, let's come back to the question of biden's mission. both ensuring up western unity and also pushing back harder against putting the u. s. recently stopped. it's in ports of russian oil. would you be expecting a president biden to be putting pressure on you and nato allies now to do the same? i don't think he's going to push, i mean, i think what he's going to understand is more beneficial is to try and find alternatives and to help europe's overcome their dependency on your european countries. overcome their dependency on russian oil and gas. you can't just send
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the economies of the, your western allies into a tailspin just what's based on that. i happen if you just shut everything down. and so i think that he and he's, his people have talked about this as he was boarding planes. you know, i think that there is going to be some attempt to try and address the shortage that is going to ensue from moving away from the, you know, russian oil and gas. and so i think that's what his mission. but i also think this is a really important time for him to sort of give, basically make nato more of a european function, you know, but he should maybe be talking to them about making a, having a european commander for the supreme or for the forces within nato and also in basically reinforcing the idea of a european defense fund, that sort of thing. i mean, he has to show that kind of support, i think that is going to work more effectively than strong arming because the u. s . has lost so much credibility. not just because of trump,
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but even during obama's time, and i don't think that you come in and you strong arm again that, that's really going to basically get the europeans to do anything. frankly, the stage. let's talk about energy because in fact, the conflict in ukraine is concentrating minds when it comes to energy independence . overall, the u depends on russia for around 40 percent of the natural gas that warms homes and fuels power stations. winning economies off those imports has become an urgent, albeit uncomfortable mission for politicians like germany's economics and climate minister, robert hobbit, he is a green party politician, dedicated to deep a carbon ization. buddy wound up rushing off to the middle east to negotiate the purchase of liquefied natural gas as a substitute for russian importance. one slight consolation, his new partner's interest in also supplying green hydrogen, which eventually could replace fossil fuels. michelle, russia has just announced interesting timing that unfriendly countries,
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as it calls them, including germany, will in future have to pay rubles for gas deliveries that would directly undermine western sanctions against russia. central bank is this the long dreaded embargo coming in through the back door. yeah, well it's a produce typical tactics of protein. he so what he does, he wouldn't block oil exports and he wouldn't put the direct embargo, but he would leave the choice, urge the west, and it's basically then now you can choose between bad and words and it's your self inflicted wounds you're facing. they're basically what it means to pay and rubles aside, yes, it's undermining the sanctions of western countries would have to buy rubles with the from the russian central bank which is under sanctions. do you think they do it
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or is that the point at which they say ok, we're ready to forego? i don't, i don't think they will do it because basically this would then what we talked about before this would then actually be the find a crack in all of the big crack in the western unity. and i think also the german government would not it, i'd be very surprised if they bought rubles, all of a sudden and this is what put in one stood. this is basically the choice put you presented to them that you have to submit and by robots in order to get oil and gas . i think we're entering here a phase. and 1st, they will probably go on just because putin is clearly in breach of the contract. and he shows here that all everybody who says, well, the soviet union has been all with been a reliable supplier, putin as not. and he's not been since 2006 and, and so we're using and sorry, i'm just going to j supply. we don't have a lot of time left on the clock. are you expecting a cut off of is,
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is what i am saying. we are. yes, we are entering a phase here. at the end of this phase, there will be a cut off of russian gas deliveries to your roman president. so lensky sent a remarkable video message directly to the germans saying they are gas imports feed proteins. war machine, is he right? and is it simply time now for that door to be shut? well, yes, he's right. gemini has my big mistakes, importing russian gas, and i think it's time for an embargo. i think it will. it will be coming in the, in the weeks ahead, we've lost the initiative to quote him, but now it's time to move on. sariah. could germany handle the hat to its economy to jobs? we heard the chancellor warning and pretty dire terms. i think i think so, just because there is a stella reserve that allows this winter to be passed so, but they'll just have to expedite, they are finding other sources or elegy. thank you very much to all of you for
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being with us on to the point. and thanks to all of you for tuning and see you soon with
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who ah, fresh us war in ukraine is rewriting global trade alliances as the west coast time with moscow? russia is looking east for partnerships with india and china, an in depth look at the global economic effects of the war in ukraine. on the d. w. business special. in 30 minutes on d. w. oh,
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wow. what does more do to people or hatred and violence inherited from generation to generation and award winning documentary searches for answers for 2 years. the auto companies that sell a fist family in northern syria insights into the isolated world of radical islam as was and into a spiral of violence without end. a film about family, faith, masculinity of fathers and sons starts april 16th on d. w. do
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you like it with? do you want it? okay, then buckle up, put the pedal to the metal and let's ride with red. oh d w ah, let us see when i arrived here, i slept with 6 people in a room and it was harsh. fair. i even got white hair in learning the german language. yeah. a lot. this kids to me and create they'll push trinity to interact with you want to know their story for migrant verifying and reliable information for migrant.
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ah ah, this is d w. news alive from berlin. fast resistance seeds, ukraine retake, ground, and the brushes plans for a lightening offensive improvements. intelligence reports a ukraine has regained territory west of keep. the price paid by ukraine's population has been high. also coming up on the show, the united states and europe announced a new energy partnership with the us to boost supply of liquefied natural gas to market. this year, president joe biden says russia's brutal attack on ukraine should not be.

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