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tv   To the Point  Deutsche Welle  March 25, 2023 2:30am-3:01am CET

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has paid almost every price of the new june in a country like turkey taking all the powers that be the risk, everything john de dar, meet activists, journalists, and politicians, living in exile. they were torture. they live for their mission. what drives them? people need to know what is happening there were series guardians of truth watch now on youtube, d w documentary ah, ah, russian missiles and drones blasted civilian buildings in ukraine. chinese president jim ping concluded what he called a journey of friendship and peace to moscow. his warm reception there comes as no surprise. vladimir putin is badly in need of friends after the international
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criminal court issued a warrant for his arrest. he is clearly hoping that gee's grand display of solidarity will translate into economic and military terry support to help russia cope with sanctions induced shortages. china has bigger aims, nothing less than re balancing global geo politics. so we're asking, putting under pressure is china, the winner in the ukraine war with hello and welcome. it is a great pleasure to greet our guests. under the stansell is senior policy fellow in the asia program at the berlin based think tank as w p. soda. david will, is senior fellow and regional director in the berlin office of the german marshall fund. and my d. w. a leak of ladder, mia and be suff. works as the pots,
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excuse me, vladimir works on our russian desk. and letting me, if i may start with you, put in absolutely pulled out all the stops on this visit. she's in ping even got to sit at a small, intimate little table with putin rather than and that infinitely long one that's reserved for western guests. yet proteins, body language seemed to indicate that he was actually a bit uneasy compared to she might have been amusing in the borderline with storms . but for him it was a huge boast of support from china. was the biggest and strongest ignacio or new throat. no 2 or 3 pairs of turns present in moscow with the saw of support with the so or, or, or of strength. and another important think it's not only what's happening in moscow. what's didn't happened. namely the attorneys prison didn't cult is against kim q. that if you still waiting to talk to him and ukrainian government trying to
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establish kind of links to, to begin. and it's fail since from years. because since the beginning of the war, there was no direct contact between students, king shooting. and it's very interesting signals. both of which of course go to the peace aspect of this visit and we're going to talk about that in a little bit more detail later on, sooner prior to the visit, there was actually some speculation amongst western media about whether she would truly go given that the international criminal court had just issued an arrest warrant for vladimir putin certainly. and i don't want to put too much weight on body language, but certainly she didn't look very uncomfortable or embarrassed about his proximity to put in on this visit. no, not at all. and in fact, i think for president g, it was also a way of showing that china has the upper hand in this relationship with russia. what started out as a, a friendship without limits last year on the eve of the war,
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is now looking like a relationship where china calls the shots. and i think, of course, russia benefits because it's looking to secure new energy partnerships in an agricultural deal was apparently also inked. so these are all good things for russia, but it's clear that the relationship is now a symmetrical. and i will say that although that meeting occurred in moscow was also interesting to see japanese prime minister shita visiting zalinski in keith hardison would expect children's anger so you know, a journey of peace and friendship. and yet peace got a lot more short shrift than the friendship part of their so was the piece plan that she had announced prior to the visit. essentially, just window dressing. i mean herself, i think m. it's not precisely a piece plan. it's a position paper and she's in ping presented this in the chinese translation. it's
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called a position paper and he presented his position and he reaffirmed his position with this visit m. the position of china is partly low hanging fruits in terms of no use of nuclear weapons, no attack of nuclear facilities, et cetera. but also of course, there's the piece and element in there, which is such that china is requesting a ceasefire between the 2 countries without of course, offering any details on how this cease fire should come should come about. so yes, it is all, it serves also to boost china's image of sort of media tow a mediator or even piece broker asked china has done between saudi arabia and iran just recently. and we will come back to the peace part of all of this. but let's drill down now on the friendship aspect. if as the 2 sides claim, this is
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a no limits friendship, it's not exactly between equals ah, chinese head of state jesus pings arrival in an american designed double excel. jumbo jet is in itself a demonstration of power toward his russian friends. a few days earlier. this video emerged of russian president vladimir putin on a p r trip to the occupied territory of mario pole behind the wheel of a japanese car instead of a russian or chinese vehicle. these images make one thing clear. both countries still depend on western technology, but this should come to an end soon as it becomes abundantly clear which country is more of the junior partner in this joint operation. china is currently buying energy and raw materials from russia at especially favourable prices. by contrast, russian accounts make up only 3 percent of china's trade balance. putin now in
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alleged war criminal, wanted by the international criminal court, urgently needs new weapons to continue his military conquests. along with other supplies from china that are no longer provided by the west. any blades from which to nick, our industrial cooperation is deepening. there is good experience in the construction of civil aircraft ship building and automotive production. we are ready to support chinese businesses are pollutants weaknesses, turning russia into a chinese vassals date a past that question right over to a vladimir, and in fact, a number of western analysts concluded that the visit does cement russia's status as a chinese vassal. are they jumping to conclusions? well, i would not use the word muscle, but to your bergmann is edward for a description of this relationship. because if you look just from a china turn economic my from the russian market, china driving their shares left by western companies from the russian,
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marcus and associates on the fortune best producing lesson in the center of the country alone. one of them are chinese and chinese companies, the mandating 75 percent or lessons smart from self saw the westerns giving up on russia in chinese if they can this shares for them. and in terms of russian economy, which is extremely important for put in for, to keep the domestic stability strong, you need to stable economy. she need threat is units china and chinese investments in china's money. let him know if that in me a put in is, is so upset about the us and the west, or encroaching on russia. why would he allow russia to become a junior partner, subservient to this massive, massive power on his, on his, on to his, at his east, the methods from, from moscow to the western ward victim?
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perfectly survive without your money, without your investment, without the good relationship. but just to the europe, to brussels, to berlin, to whoever in the best we don't need liberal democracy of the state concept. we are perfectly fine on our self in the look for our partners. senior partner, student, her partners were they were by also. so be a final no so so it's a big my to the western democracies in general. sort of china, russia don't actually use the term alliance when they talk about this relationship . so how allied are they? is this comparable, this, this tie to let say, germany and france as nato allies? well, i think the u. s. administration has sort of describing it as a, a relationship of convenience because as of last year said, you know, they both have an interest in dismantling the global order that the u. s. built after world war 2. because china says it fields contained by the united states.
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russia is obviously, you know, in the, in the dog house with the west at the moment. and it will take probably many years for moscow to gain trust for it with the european countries in this western alliance. so i think that right now they both see joining up as an advantage in terms of taking way relative power from the united states and the west. then melissa angelo, looking at the longer term picture, would you say that putin is suffering from tunnel vision in a sense when he makes a pact with the devil simply despite the west? well, i mean, that's probably a very simple version of it. i think a partnership with china is the lesser evil, even though russia may not always like all aspects of it. and it's also something that you know, has been developing since many years, even before ukraine,
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that russia increasingly became more junior part not to china. it started basically already doing the sanctions following crimea and so on. and so, i mean, you know, he knows he kind of knows his place, but let's not forget that russia also has power beyond economic might. and that is still the case in particular, military cloud, in region such as the middle east. and i think this is why i agree. it's not a vested vessel or it's, it's more of a junior partner and russia will still push through its interest. even though china may not like it very much, but of course, on the other hand, on the long term, what we see is that russia is becoming increasingly dependent on china, on many fronts, probably even on the military fund technology fund in the far future. because russia investing everything now in this war, which also means that china will have more of a say,
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in regions where russia used to dominate. let's look at the arctic, for example. you know, i think china will have much more much more room to navigate there without taking in consideration russian feelings that in your you said that the ties with china do have economic advantages. for russia, however, russia is selling china oil and gas at rock bottom prices. some cynics have said in the past that russia is a, i'm quoting john kane here, the u. s. senator. he said some time ago already. russia is a gas station masquerading as a country. is 13 essentially locked king russia into that kind of a status or the same. but ross is not a gas station. ross is much more than the gas station. if you look what's happening in africa, it's not on the architect by then africa. it's perfectly frank about corporation,
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between chain in the us, the china building, the introspection, many african countries interested washington brains and africans because the influence of russia, russia, info, well fair enough because that extremely, extremely struck. so it's cooperation on many different levels so much more than the gas and oil, it's on the global scale. it's against united states, against the best, against the little democracy of the state concept and against the whole set of the rest of the radios. we used to have here in the vest it's in so it's so much more for them on a logical level that are just saving or gus the suit of china and russia regularly hold joint military drills and for some weeks, even i think now a couple of months, u. s. intelligence services have been warning that they believe china is getting close to supplying russia with important military goods, including ammunition,
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russia desperately short of ammunition at the moment, as well as possibly drones and other weapons. do you think that that will indeed occurred? would you expect to see china provide of russia with the military support that it clearly badly needs? well, i mean, i think, you know, china is probably providing russia with dual use technology and supplying russia with products that could perhaps help in the war. but certainly the step of providing lethal weapons is a big one, which would obviously also ruin china's cr build credibility in terms of trying to position itself as an honest broker in meeting and mediating a peace deal between ukraine and russia. and i think it would also put china in a hard position visa v europe as a trading partner, because i think europe, europeans will be then put, you know, to be stuck between a rock and a hard place. if the u. s. then slap chance additional sanctions against china and
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europe would be forced to follow along when there are very strong trading ties between china and europe. i want to come back to that point in a moment, but just from the chinese perspective and go if i may, having positioned himself so very firmly on, put inside jewish in pin can scarcely afford, in terms of saving face to have russia lose the war in ukraine isn't that right? i think that's precisely right also because for china there's a huge uncertainty about the alternative. so for example, protein fail and his deem collapse for some reason. oh, what would be the replacement of that? i'm also having a loser on his side in this war, which are then damage china's image. so i, i think this is a reason why he went to russia to talk to put in personally. and it's quite remarkable. i think that this visit is 3 days long, and i think we only see
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a minimal snippet of what is happening there and what they actually talking about. i think for a long time, we will not know what they have discussed behind closed doors, but i think we can be sure that the aim was to ensure that there is some sort of an exit of this open, preserving the regime of putting let's come back to the piece dimension of this 3 day visit, as mentioned prior to his trip, she had released a 12 point position paper. can china truly play the role of mediator or is it plan nothing more than window dressing? she's in ping arrived in moscow with a clear strategy. he wants to show the u. s. and the rest of the world that china is a political superpower. after a successful mediation between iran and saudi arabia, she now plans to move forward with his 12 point plan for peace in ukraine. so from
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our original use on the ukranian crisis, china has always upheld the principles of the united nations charter um, taken in objective and neutral position, and actively promoted peace and dialogue. officially, china has tried to strike a delicate balance of not supplying weapons to russia and opposing its nuclear weapons program while maintaining a close relationship under jeez, leadership is g succeeding in walking this difficult tight route between russia and the west. and let me ask, do a suit of many western analysts now say that they think the world will probably end with an uneasy cease fire of some sort. and the optimists hope that perhaps such a ceasefire would then include at least some parts of don bass once again being under ukrainian control. is it conceivable that china could play
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a constructive role in moving both sides toward that kind of a ceasefire? well, in china certainly has leverage over russia and you know, also has some leverage when it comes to ukraine because ukraine will face lots of a daunting task in terms of reconstructing the country after the battle is over. and china could play a role there, but i think it's pretty disingenuous to see china as a honest broker, especially if it claims to want to uphold the principles of the un charter. but that hasn't really seen the ukraine as a victim in this war, and hasn't clearly called russia the aggressor. and finally, also has not mentioned anything about russia, you know, sort of removing troops out of occupy territory and ukraine. so it's hard to see at this moment that china could play a constructive role vladimir, oddly enough,
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in their joint statement that they made at the end of the visit, both protein and g paid tribute to the united nations. although they, in fact regularly block motions that could lead to some form of pro active peacekeeping, which of course, is ultimately the function of the web. so why would they pay lip service to this institution? that is so very much part of the old order. they seem to want to overturn the want to prove the new order of this reference to the room is like rhythm part of the game just need to mary comstock reached. let's symbolical step towards the restaurant until toward the global audience. not only in the rest, but in the places like africa or what on america and the global people who are like touched in between this 2 bottles of narrative between the rest of the russia and china. sorta brought her a reference to those to this audience. in my opinion, and then the goal with their agenda, ignoring the screen not holding zalinski during the war in the ukraine, even worse,
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no angler. in fact, beijing refers to the relationship with russia by a unique term that uses for no other country. a comprehensive, strategic partnership of coordination for a new era. how much capacity would these 2 are truck receives actually have to revise the existing world order? well, i mean, i think, and they have both been working on changing the world or already even before the war. and i think the differences between china and russia that russia was willing to overthrow everything for the sake of winning of our ukraine, while china is still trying in its own perspective. it's very smartly step by step, changing the world order, according to its own interests and precisely the un is the best example how china has infiltrated and try to influence and shape the un institution in itself
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according to its own interests. so i think if they now really stent again, or of course, russia will be a weaker play on many fronts. but china is ever so strong. and if they manage to actually form a block not only consisting of russia and china, but the global south, or thinking of saudi arabia and iran, countries in the middle east and used to be, or are still kind of than the u. s. camp. but you know it's, it's shaky, it's on shaky grounds. then i think they have great potential. tor, i'll turn at the, the existing international water. when you look at rhetoric of the visit suit, it was hard not to conclude that this visit was, at least as much about pushing back against the u. s. and the west, as it was about piece and the ukraine. some pools, including ones that your own organization jer, marshall fund, has done show an increase in, in increasing hardening of attitudes, both in europe and the u. s. when it comes to china. isn't that
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a real downside of this block development that angela just described and doesn't china ultimately also economically need the west really more than it needs russia? well, i mean, i think china is also seeing the, you know, the winds go in that direction, that both of us already has bipartisan. there's bipartisan skepticism toward russia . but even here in europe, there is some skepticism toward, sorry, china toward china after coven, for example. and i think, you know, chancellor schultz has talked about the turning point of germany and that very much includes looking at authoritarian powers with a new view and not necessarily thinking it's smart to do critical infrastructure trading with countries like russia and china. but if i can push back on a push, once again on that point, a angular, in fact, china's trade with the us is 3 times that the worth of its trade with
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russia. so isn't there a very real down side to the path that it's taking here? well, i mean, i think this is why i kind of also reject the idea of a new cold war. because as of course, obviously, as you said, to the big difference and during the cold war, there was not that kind of interdependency see. but what we also see, a said these kind of interdependencies do not stop conflict. maybe it will stop a complete escalation. and the 3rd world war may still be far away, as long as we see this kind of interdependence. but we see nevertheless, a hardening of both positions and take the balloon episode as an example of how things can escalate diplomatically. and despite the interdependence, it's a phenomena might or we see conflict em further developing further vladimir than several if you have a suggested to that ultimately this chinese russian bond is very much also about
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winning hearts and minds in the global south in many of those countries those non aligned countries that have abstained on the un votes condemning russia. if that's the case, what should the west be doing to ensure and i come back to our title here to ensure that china and autocracy are not ultimately the winner of this protect tractor conflict in ukraine. one thing for sure, the rest of the invoice to more information in the information and enlightenment of the global audience, nor cuts, no budget cuts on broadcasters in the rest, nor, nor coal do suit, invest more in the, in the information because rustling this in huge amounts of money in global sol to bring the narrative to bring the view of the vert situation to do to this people. if you look, if you travel to africa, you find so many people completely against the united states and completely process
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live so much sympathy for us in africa. recently till night robin kenya. and i was surprised how many people are reading russia to the, how many journalist getting pieces of content from moscow, or read it to bring their local newspapers? how much affords russia wouldn't in this informational level of conflict? so that would be, in my opinion, one most important thing, sir, i'm gonna send question to you very quickly. if you would. our title asks, is china, the winner here? what, what, what would you say and what we, what do we have to do here in the west? well, i mean, i think the jury is out in terms of china being the winner because i think also china like stability. and it doesn't necessarily want to have a war raging in europe because europe is an important trading partner. i agree. yep . okay, thank you very much to all of you for being with us today. and thanks to our viewers
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