tv Stossel FOX Business November 23, 2013 9:00pm-10:01pm EST
if you wake up we will see you tomorrow. ♪ john: it is the season of giving. so where should you give? should you give this man money? what about this man? >> thank y. john: actually, that's me. don't give money to beggars like me. governments must spend more. >> medicare, medicaid, social security. john: this governmt really helps the poor. >> everybody in cleveland. >> by any measurement thiis not working. john: am glad more people figure that out. >> commerce, entrepreneurial capitalism takes more people out of poverty. john: even some in the mainstream media. >> if you're waiting for the
government you're going to be in for an awful long way. john: if they get it may be seen more people will realize there are better ws to give. real charity. that is our show tonight. ♪ >> and now. ♪ john: what is real charity? people are in troublefter disaster or sply when people are poor. americans instead is to think amount and government help. after all, who will help those people is not government? libertarians argue that private charity would step in. individuals really choosing to help. but with enough of us up? most people say no. that is why liberals like neday columnist say when it comes to helping the need, that is mostly government's job.
>> well, listen, it would be great if people of reach into their hearts and solved all these will problems. that does not happen. in almost every single case where they're is a government program that exists because the private efforts. when you have 04 enough. john: that is because politicians sd they were not enough and we could do better. i would argue that a government did not takes a much of our monethe private sector would takeare of these problems. >> hold on a second. let's get older americans. the poorest sector of our society. something called social security camelot. medicare came along. all the peop really do comparatively fairly well. we had hundred kidspread all across america. those numbers were cut dramatically in spite of the generous churches and nice people. >> programs are trillions in debt. unsustainable. >> maybe we have to tweak. but you can't throw away the idea.
the reality is we need government then there. john: food stamps, a couple billionaires' could find that all program by themselves. and a pri charity would be better as saying who really needs the food help and to is giving the system >> i would love that. you know a billionaire who wants to pay to my think we would welcome that. john: did not step in because you're a big fat government is there. people say, oh, the government does that. >> here is the reality in real fe. all these private efforts are really important. generous people. we give a lot of money. when the chips are really down and the big thing happens, the typhoon hits the philippines, we love the red cross effort. but they don't have an aircraft carrier with marines on board and rescue helicopters. the u.s. military does. i want them steaming toward the phippines when that's-it's. john: i don't know what will happen. in haiti our government promised billions of dollars, billion of it is not done to the people.
the new york times said there were going t build 15,000 alums, latest target fewer than 3,000. >> your argument is that government sometimes does not do a perfect job. i concede that. john: i want to play along perversion of the clip earlier. to my left-wing colleagues were talking about how after a disaster faith based charies work better and disaster relief and fema. >> there is fema and then there is the faith based fema. >> if you're waiting for the government you are going to be in for an awful long wait. >> talking about the government response after the tornado in oklahoma in may. now 30 churches banded together to help much more quickly and did a better job in government. this happened with katrina. fema was turning away walmart. people were tryinto get water. seing its water to the wrong place. >> you're right. as you know, i am a native of new orleans.
there are some things that the province to well. all those kids, wonderful young people who came down, church groups, they did something much better than government. but ey were still an awful lot of things that we needed government. remember how angry folks were. no one said stay away. john: walmart and private charities got there. >> maybe one of the things of the privates can do is be more nimble. if you are talking about rebuilding, i don't think you want the government to take a pass. john: i do. let's talk about the war on poverty. lyndonohnson said he would and porty. here is where the war began. and sure enough it dropped sharply the first five, seven years after that. to then it stopped improving. >> we teach people to be dependent.
that was happening before the war. americanwere lifting themselves out of poverty. government continuehe progress for five years and then stopped it. >> we should have been more generous, done the other things that government can do to help folks. john: government does not teach a dependency. >> i am not here saying government is profit. government has some bad thing clumsy, bureaucratic. there are things i does really well. hey, private folks, step up. john: these graphs of the test. can we put these up. john: the recession, t it goes up steadily. two lines referred to one is the number of people collecting in the other is the cost. we are teaching people to be passive. >> i will grant you that is
something we want to avoid. what is t solution from look at the people and say we will take your food stamps a way? up for the best. >> limit the program some of the private sector stepped in. one more example is the rise of disability test people. straight out. you have fewer people doing manual labor, medicine is better , and more people are disabled. >> i am with you on that one. john: if you want to get rid of it. >> no, i don't want to get rid of it. certainly we can look more closely as of the applications. john: cut it way back. there's a place near college of center, a government office supposedly to help people find jobs. i went there. people said, there are no jobs. we then went around 40 job offers, 28 and to build positions, one restaurant owner said, i would hire a dozen people live there would just
apply. >> i would throw we take nine with no experience in trenton. john: and that the welfare of a steeple told us there are no jobs. >> there plenty of jobs. john: government jobs offices to encourag people to take welfare. as somebody go and ask for help to see if it would help her get a job and they said, no, they just to reach for welfare and food stamps. >> again, it is much smarter to have programs that encourage people to work, don't reward laziness,. john: they all do that. >> i don't know. john: private charities and of any suppression did he tell. >> the answer can be to just cut it back a mechani john: get it back. and let the private sector in. we will stop there. thank you. atomize a private charity should replace government. what about the rest of the world? people assume global poverty i a problem.
it has to be addressed by government giving out foreign aid or maybe the wind. the u.s. and contradicts the title of my book by saying, yes, we, governments, working together can end poverty in just two years while. two years. of course 50 years ago lyndon johnson claimedis war on poverty would end poverty in america. the u.n. will do better. ted turner gave him a billion dollars for this. individual governments and squandered nearl a trillion dollars of foreign aid trying to lift people out of poverty in africa. i say squandered because after they spent trillions for income per capita it went down. that is maybe because the foreign aid encourages dependency and african kleptocrats government steal much of the money. what is the alternative? michael fay says he has an
answer. what is yours? >> we are going straight to the port. cash transfers from you directly to them. no middleman, no leakage, no hidden costs. john: the charity, and you have raised about $6 million. just given 27,000 people-the thousand dollars each. >> that is exactly right. a thousand for the households. john: this sounds like a stupid idea. they will just spend it and then it won't have any. >> you are not the only one. the truth is there has been about a decade of research that shows the exact opposite. what are these people missing? a lot of them are missinghe capital. we have the old expression teach a man to fish. the truth is they don't have fishing poles. john: so you allow them to buy a fishing pole or in this case this may have been a guy who got a motorcycle and use it for a taxi service.
>> this is a used motorcycle that he bought with cash and now provides tax to services. john: he gives the people a cell phone with the money. >> thais the way we transfer the money. found the phone. if they don't have a phone them in a deal to get the money. john: and its easier to check up on them. >> we check, call them, talk to them regularly. john: people build metal roofs. the most popular thing. >> no charity. saves income, clean water, was malaria. we did not think of it, they did. john: before they had that they had at that's true fan is bad about a hundred dollars a year. john: instead they can start a business, another person had received training from another charity to be a welder. >> said he was standing there doing nothing. he did not have welding equipment.
john: what makes you think this work? >> we have a decade of evidence, we have done our own third-party valuation. we know income goes up a monstrous level goes down, under follows. john: you do another odd thing. none of your charity board members works full-time for your charity. >> her the great thing. if it is not working i would not lead to -- need to lie the right attitude my job. john: you could be more honest evaluating it. theharities delude themselves. >> well, i think people have passion and often implies evidence. john: i have hard time accepting i just criticize government pro grams because they don't teach people to take care of themselves. i guess giving cash once and knowing that it will keep coming is different. >> a onetime transforming event it does not matter who does it. matters what they do.
why buy a cow when the person is to will then. john: to take care of it? look to make the choice. john: i hope it works. i'm gla a lot ofhese experiments are going on. thank you. if you would like to keep this conversatn going go to facebook or twitter and use that has tank. real charity. that people know what you think. coming up, president obama's says the way to help poor people is to give the a free cell phone. ♪ ♪ hmm. ♪ mm-hmm.
♪ >> the government will pay for you to have a free cell phone with monthly minutes, no credit check and no deposit required. john: of freeell phone. 253 minutes. what the deal. this is to help poor people in need a lifeline. that is reasonable. this is a government program that began with ronald reagan. president obama expanded it, of course. and in just four yrs the costs tripled and will continue rice can.
>> a minority. you know. he gave up. , no income, disability. john: the more free stuff you get the more you're eligible to get. but eligible is. what did you do? >> i went to all the welfare offices in manhattan and a couple in brooklyn and found out that there are people of their approach you on the street as the if you have your free phone yet. outside the office. john: private entrepreneur. >> and not on welfare. i told them that. i would like to be buried at think a lot of the people would like to be. but that was enough. they ended up giving me not one,
not to, but three free phones. john: the good news is someplace is turned down. >> yeah. they ended up. first of, you are not supposed to have duplicate files which i have already broken and will. there also supposed to check eligibility. they also did not catch the eye and multiple applications and and try to work powero the system again and again. john: and fcc audit, they found 41 percent of the recipients never demonstrated that they were eligible. >> that's about 6 million people. the what you really see is the phone companies have a very perverse incentive to push those bonds and on the street. they get $9.25 per customer per month for this program. the street vendors -- john: is paid for out of your phone bill. if you bothered to read the fine print, the is something called the universal service charge. this was under ronald reagan, make sure everybody and a phone line.
universal service. a dollar and two out of every race home built. bison i think that most taxpayers don't know what. i went out and investigated. i didn't know. john: bore people talk to their families. >> the phone companies of the bad guys in this. this is a huge business. the mexican billionaire, one of the richest people in the world. john: he may be the richest. >> csn bill gates compete. but he got in 2011 alone half a billion dollars from this program. so what turned out to be welfare for the poor is actuall corporate welfare plan in simple john: and what about my obnoxious question. you don't want to help the poor? >> well, i think maybehere would be justification for a land line. as with a program started out as, but anytime you have perverse incentives for companies to go and no phones combined with the very poor
oversight you have to ask yourself, you creating a situatn in which fraud and abuse can just compound? that is what we have. john: it should not surprise anyone that government charity is susceptible to fraud. the contractors doing the work. no one's money. the more they give out the more ey get to keep. they get a commission on each give away. the cellphone charities $2 billion. think about the hundreds of billions spent on medicare and medicaid. much more from there. people work out with all this stuff. one man alone spent $20 million on this diamond jewelry, also a fleet of luxury cars, one after the other. all of which she got because gornment paid millions for medical treatment that never happened. government health is just era susceptible to abuse. and is definitely what i found. was surprised that i was able to get three of them in violation a
pretty muchvery program wall, and if i can do it being someone he tells the truth, just a man from the people. actually willing to abuse the program. john: private companies get ripped off. but they have more of an incentive to check. it's their own money. >> that's right. georgia is actually doing reform within the states to try to see if they can mess with that fundamental flaw in incentive structure. there will start charging $5 for consumers. they have to pay $5 spirit there less likely god and by. john: thank you. coming up, better ways tell people. ♪ ♪
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john: one of the richest people in the world is warren buffett. is the jeep? he is one of many billionaire sue until recently gave very little to charity. he used s money to try to make more money. he said he would give it away when he died. his fellow billionaire ted turner told me buffett was being cheap. >> she should give some away now hn: turner just made a big splash by giving a billion dollars to the wind. now he said he wanted to shame other rich people into giving more. >> what he said is bad and the stupid. john: that was his awer. >> what he should do is take his money and invested. he can help people in the other better way into invested and have the companies in building in plans that creating the investment creates jobs and wealth and products for other people. john: really? is it better if a money maker uses money to make more rather than give to charity? i think so. add to that question back to ted
turner. >> bill gates says, and get it making money. john: that try to argue this, but he wasn't buying it. john: and i wrong in thinking that i am happy if he gives that the charity? >> when you be happier if he did? you alleges -- this is what people don't like theseen. i know your dirty tricks. there is nothing more say. goodbye. i am walking out. john: he did not want to talk about it. let's take that same question to an economist to rise a free-market institute at texas tech. >> am not bothered if they don't give more of it away. they make their money by making allies that. theyre helping people. often that is the best with a can help. john: and then make a profit than they hire people, those jobs live on for years. people use it to educate there kids and feed their family.
there is a multiplier. these guys may not even begin dexterity. we know they're good at making money. stick to wha your specialty is. >> it's about the results. if leeson to do the things that we want them to do. of course the real reason is that creating the products and services that make our lives better, but as byproduct they create jobs that make other people better off. it is what is fundamentally responsible for the high standard of ling we enjoy. john: said most of them, i would say to my don't feel good about all the wealth they create in their business and guiltily give to charity. even bill gates is now working full time on charity he says he thinks most charity has to come from government. >> a lot of the money that is supporting these causes is
coming from the private sector, people like you and less from e government. john: governments are the backbone of this. >> no, no, no. he is good as computers, not it is social policy. just last week had a research paper presented about the great chicago fire of 1871. what happened afterward, there was no fema. it was private charity and civil society organizations the banded together and help get people out of the city who lost their homes, brought in new shelter, clothing. judgg fromhat i was hearing from my work to haggle a lot better than fema of ordering people when they can and cannot go and buts in the process to behalf of. john: a recent edition of forbes magazine, the richest people's list featured philanthropy. so how they are now reading billionaires' by how much they give. a kind of want my heart. let's have a competition.
>> there is nothing wrong with people giving money to the causes thinker valuable. not every good or service will be produced for profit. some of it can come from this segment of society, and it's fine that we recognize that as long as weon't demonize those who aren't doing it and think there's something wrong with them pursuing profit because there is not. at osmanli makes us bette off john: there are these tycoons from previous years cornelius vanderbilt and john d. rockefeller and people who vilify them. they did some charity work. they were evil robbers. >> they fundamentally transformed the lives of americans and raising living standards. rockefeller brought us well and made profits. byhe way, he probably is also responsible for saving the whal because he pushed down the price of oil it was no longer profitable to how best to extinction henry ford makes jeep
automobiles. it does not matter that is motive was profits. he made automobiles affordable for the average middle-class american. the same is true of most of these so-called robber barons of the late 19th and early 20th century. john: thank you. up next, if i put on aake beard and chemistry of people give me mon this is the quicksilver cash back card from capital one. it's not the "fumbling around with rotating categories" card. it's not the etting blindsided by limits" card. it's the no-game-playing, no-earning-limit-having, deep-bomb-throwing, give-me-the-ball-and-i'll-take- it-to-the-house, cash back card. this is the quicksilver cash card from capital one. unlimited 1.5% ch ba on every purchase, everywhere, every single day. so let me ask you... at's in your wallet?
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>> cut off american assistance to these democratic efforts. pull the eight out. what the heck. less than 1 percent of the entire budget of the united states of america. john: it's pretty close to 1%. $35 million. i say we can't afford that. gregory ams runs of sam's 80 effectively says we should spend more. a giant charity it tries to fight poverty over the world. i say, fine. if you want to do that, you raise the money he believes government out of it. >> the issue is that there are some things that charities just can't do. despite the impact that they have around the world, and we are proud of the work that we do with money raised from average americans, there is only so much that we can do with our own projects. some places government needs to step in. john: all right. gornment needs to make sure aids workers and of being murdered on the way to where they're going.
and i should say that you don't take government money from the united states. to other countries. but you call for government to spend more on foreign aid. why when so much has been squandered? >> it is important to know that we're calling for more of the right kind of a. john: this is going to be the right kind. >> there are some things that we think the united states government is doing that we think is not a good use of money. particular, food aid is in desperate need of reform. we miss about half of the value of every dollar that we spend because we require it to be shipped in american vesls, delivering food rather than buying food at the source. john: you also wanted to spend more. >> we want more of the right kind. there are good programs, the millennium celebration that invest in success. the best performing countries rather than subsidizing failure. we want to see more aid given
directly to helping small farmers grow more of their own food and you want to see more aid used to support the anti-corruption efforts. john: but what are the odds that that will happen? that the aids support the corrupt dictators as much as half the food aid center at the molly is diverted to corrupt ccntractors, is like militants, local un staff. >> somalia is a difficult environment. john: i will go on. zimbabwean authorities confiscated truck filled with american food aid for school kids and handed it out to supporters of president robert mcgowan boy and a political rally. >> this is one of the problems when the only tool you have is bags of food. john: but by calling for more government aid you are calling for mor of the aid that despite all the promises of reform has ended up in the hands of corrupt dictators. >> we are not just calling for
more government aid. john: i understand that, and you do some brave work. why do you call for it at all? >> a lot of misconceptions. one of the biggest is that most u.s. assistance actually goes to governments. in fact, that is not true. most goes to u.s. based charities, ngos, contractors. john: and the u.n. >> there is portion that goes. we are very clear that they are not the solution. people on the solution to poverty. john: let's hear from an african entrepreneur. a business and american. but she tried operating a business in her own company -- country of senegal. you agree. >> the combination. foreign aid. government. >> i have a very hard time. the african union itself is admitting it is being siphoned through corruption.
john: the swiss bank account. >> swiss bank accounts, real estates in the south of france, the son of the dictator of a equatorial guinea. he was busted by french customs. his plan was intercepted, and they found in the plane 27 fancy cars. i don't know how many furry some bentleys, rolls-royces. john: the only way to stop that is said keep government out of it. you can get a bunch of people who want to give their own mey they won't give it to dictators. >> well, not o governments of the same. we actually work with a lot of anti-corruption and human rights activists in countries around the world who are actually working to try to get their governments to govern more accountable. they're interested in u.s. standing with them in joining this fight. too often we take such an approach to u.s. assistance, we try to make it -- we focus on much and a boarding corruption these activists in telling us that they want to us stand
togeth to fight corruption which means that we need to be their standing with them i solidarity working together. john: why the need government aid? why the need government aid? >> government said the only tool that can work to solve some of these accouability proems. it is like asking why the bears ed an offensive line. at some int you need these other tools. it will be entrepreneurs who solve the problem of african poverty. but you also need government to do other things. john: you need governments. >> unfortunately at least in most countries in africa government has been the problem. they basically say, as an entrepreneur government does nothing but slow me down on a regular basis officials bribing me all along. the fact that my truck is parked on a regular basis. and i have to p pay a single tie in the delays.
john: government aid will help fight the corruption. >> i'm sorry. the more you're feeding this huge government the more you choke me from the oth end. that is at least the phenomenon that i am awareness of. and the more you give to them the more that is what happens to me. john:e do think that there is role that government can py. in a lot of the places we actually find there is a government deficit. people have to deal with -- john: why do you believe government aid would provide that? has not so far. >> that is actually not true to a lot of success stories. a lot of african countries that the scene. john: to racine them. thank you. coming up, why our man came up to me on the street and said are you john stossel?
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has said the spd said to my hope you guys in. so what is this hatred about? it turned out he was what people call and anti-poverty lawyer and did things like sue landlords to stop them from evicting people. in his world here in new york capitalism is the enemy, and the only thing tha keeps poor people from being totally impressed his government. so because i call for less governnt and evil. this town, we libertarians are selfish people. and a good guy is called a bleeding heart liberal. so what is this website about? bleeding heart libertarians. talks about social stice and free-market. georgetown university philosophy professor regularly contributes to the site. why? >> the idea is to recapture the
soul of libertarianism. what thecan and should do is embrace the concept of social justice. john: what does the phrase even mean? i am for social justice. >> right. john: for a lot of peoe it does not mean anything. it jt means socialism. there is a real meaning. course of institutions that you expect other people to live by. john: ls, property rights, mily rules come anythg like that, one of the tests of those institutions should be that you expect when people live and abide by them attd to produce good consequences for everybody. you can show whether you care about this by asking a question like this. imagine that marxists were right. imagine there were a disaster, they left the overall majority of people destitute. uld you still advocate markets?
i think most libertarians would say i would at least have some reservatio. the fact that they work matters in the justification. if you think that the new advocate whether you know not what philosophers are calling the social justice. john: i'm rand sai that do not consider charity a major virtue. selfish. >> what she means is not what most people mean. even if she thinks that i don't think she speaks fo most people most are humane, they give to charity, the care that markets work and their work for everybody. the mimum wage, if you did not think that matter why would you argue that because on one. you don't beat you say tt the minimum wage causes unemployment among the most laura will people in society and that is part of the reason to oppose it which means that you care of the consequences for the poor. john: the website, bleeding heart libertarian, categories like advocating nurses caring versus helping.
>> this explains what igoing on with people when they think that libertarians are selfish. if you are on the lefty probably believe that your policies are the only sensible expression of benevolence. you probably think they must disagree with your valuesnd only care of their pocketbooks. that is never really make sense because we have real arguments but also advocacy is cheap. i advocate that we have a 90% marginal tax rate, income over 100,000, if i advocate that it does not cost me anything. if i give money to charity -- john: governmen should have a bigger anti-poverty program. >> that costs you nothing but you get the warm glow of altruism when you say you advocate that. put your money where your mouth is. does it actually does something. i know your concern. if you're advocating taking income from other people or yourself and that is all you do your not really showing me that you care. john: it is ey to be generous
in the dark. so i saved. but when my career took off and i started getting paid money to make speeches i decided to donate the money toharity, and it changed my life. i realize that i like giving money away. it makes me happy. research on what makes people happy backs that up. on average people who give to charity, whether they give them money or just time, they are happier. so death. it is did for us and get for them. though that depends whom you give to. i put on a fake beard and tried begging in new york city. people gave me money. they gave me money when my cardboard sign said thomas and cold, and even gave when i chased it to needed bier. thank you. thank you. hn: when they asked givers why they gave people said things like this. >> he looks pretty neat, i
suppose. john: i just beg for an hour, but i did well. but did this for an eight hour day and would have made $90 a 23,000 year. tax-free. that is the reasonocial workers say not to give to beggars. often is a scam plan very often you are an enabling. by giving cash to subsidize the biggest drug or alcohol habit. by not givingou may encourage them to give real help. a few respectable charities illicit on the streets. but mos were begging or running scams. >> i need your help. i am homeless. john: new york attorney general said this pitch from a group calling itself united homeless is a sm. its director keeps nearly all the money comes bins it on things like his weight watcher bills. i hear you keemost of the money. >> we are homeless people.
john: the pages it is going to shelters. >> am i supposed to run a nonprofit and not get money? >> all the people donate absolutely know where the money goes. john: it is hard to find out where your charity money rlly goes. we can check charity rating services like charity navigator. it is better than nothing. the ratingsre not perfect. some charities are not perfect, and rating svices sometimes did coned. i give my charity money to groups that i can check out myself, a group that rehabs ex-con and attics. i decided they do a good job because i could see these men. they call them men in blue, ready, willing, able. the clean-air bill york ity streets. what is hot is that they do is bring in a step in look cheerful and work fast. i thought whoever is working with these guys has done something right, taught them to take pride in work.
i give them money in a couple of other groups that back and watch. while i give to what i think are good charities, we should not forget about the people of, capitalists, on this once. but job creators do much more good for the world that politicians. and more even than that do-gooders' working for charity. i am delighted that the singer bought of figure that out after spending years calling for government to spend more in foreign-aid flop. now he says the best hope for the four is free markets. >> preaching capital. >> sometimes i hear myself, and i just cannot believe it. commerce is real. just a stopgap. >>ommerce and on to panera capitalism takes more people out poverty. we know that. john: politicians don't know that. many americans don't know it. it is time that they learned.
entrepreneurial capitalism takes more people out of povty and a never well. that is our show. see you next week. ♪ adam shapiro. >> this week on "across america" here on the fox business network, why would somebody buy this house for $700,00 and then tear it down? uh-oh, there goes to cmney -- the chimney. oh, dear. while others are making buildings you just can't break down. that's that a 40 caliber shot loo like if you shoot at this thing. then, the business of food. >> the pole try is cage-free. >> you're looking at, actually, dog food. the latest on teardown -- [inaudible] gentrification, the takeover of
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