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tv   The Willis Report  FOX Business  February 3, 2014 6:00pm-7:01pm EST

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he's a rock and roll do gooder. tomorrow at 5:00 p.m. "the willis report" is coming up next. ♪ hello, everybody i'm gerri willis. tonight on "the willis report." consumer's financial information hacked again. this time one of the country's biggest hotel chains. also, janet yellen sworn in as the new fed chief. wait until you hear what she says about seniors. who is throwing granny over a cliff now? ♪ and with more snow and freezing temperatures in the forecast, congress is making it more expensive to heat your home. we're watching out for you tonight on "the willis report." ♪
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♪ more customers data comprised. could you be at risk? hotels becoming the latest victim in the spree of recent hack takes. our next guest said the breach, well it could have been going on for years without anybody knowing about it. here with new details cyber terrorism expert morgan wright, the ceo of crowd sourced investigations. morgan, welcome to the show. i read -- -- i read this afternoon that folks who frequented the restaurants and longs in some of the hotels were at risk and the dates were march 20th to december 16th of last year. what else can you tell me, my friend? >> look, this is going get worse before it gets better. unfortunately, because these folks are the equivalent of soft targets from a terrorism standpoint. they don't have the same security measures in place. and they don't get impacted the same way banks and financial institutions do. now your data, your credit card personal information is hot
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commodity. they're going after soft targets to get it. this is one. gerri: we showed folks the brand names at risk. if you use the hilton, marriott, shareton. the company is called white lodging. they maintain moment franchises. they're a company who probably supplies all the software used in processing the credit cards. what else do you know at this point? could other hotels be at risk? >> well, white lodging is the -- they own the franchises the brands while they may have marriott and hilton, they are the owners of the particular areas. so the gift cards, the shops, the other things it's run through their system. it's not the property management system of the branch. that's where we see something a little bit different. it's their shops. it's their gift services it means somewhere at white lodging some central location somebody has comprised that and it's collected all the credit card d.a. that is passing through all the several brands outside the property management system.
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the booking system. it's getting everything where you're spending frankly a lot of money. gerri: do you think it's the same folks who took advantage of the customer of target and michael's? you say it's the -- think it's the same group of bad guys? >> it's hard to tell. it could be the same place. romania is being targeted as a hot spot for the information. and gerri, for target, that type of software was actually soft on the open market for these guys. you create malware, you sell it, and somebody take it is. what is happening a lot of guys are realizing we can go to business. i don't have to create the software. i'll buy it from somebody who did. gerri: my understanding it costs $2,000 and made millions, millions of dollars off of this hack. you know, we're hearing there's new report out that say banks are far safer than retailers and possibly hotel franchisees. >> yes. gerri: people ask me about it all the time. if target is breached, why not bank of america? why not jpmorgan chaise?
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what is your answer to that? >> because banks have been the target for a lot longer. when you have been getting beat up and getting attacked for a long time your defenses become better. the things you look for, the type of information, it's educational. you learn this from a school of hard knock. you learn what do. and banks are where the money is. they have, you know, they have -- gerri: i think they have higher standards because they have to in part. >> there's some federal regulations. . gerri: exactly. >> you bring up an interesting thing. if you make them sign off on ceo security and reasonable standards and the step. you would see a change in it. until there's accountability you can have all the "come to jesus." that's a big problem. what we have right now retailers pointing finkers to banks. it goes on and on. i'm happy to hear that 37% of americans are saying i'm using cash. is that the right response.
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is it going to keep more people safe? >> as former -- it only creates another pool of potential victims. if you say i'm going carry cash it means you get mugged instead of them taking your credit card which could be canceled. you can't cancel cash. >> there's not a russian cyber terrorist who knock me off and steal my purse. >> no. gerri: the odds are better in knocking over a target you get more dough by doing that. >> sure. but to your point, if you're carrying around more cash and people understand as you watch the trends and people carry more crash we change one problem for another. from the standpoint if you pay cash for certain things then do it and lessen your risk all the better. i do the same thing. i make sure i carry enough for certain things like garages i never parked in before. restaurant i've never been to. i would rather pay cash than to get my credit card in an unknown location. some is about trust and behavior of the places you frequent.
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gerri: absolutely right. if you're using cash, they can't steal your personal identity. there's that advantage, too. morgan, thank you for coming on the show. it was great to see you. it was a blistering day on wall street. a terrible day. an awful day. the dow tumbling 326 points. the as much 500, the nasdaq tanked over 2%. joining me with answers chief economist john. so john, people see this and suddenly once again worried about the return of their money. not the return on their money. what would you tell them tonight about the sell-off today? >> well, i think this is more of a correction as oppose to the start of a long - lived bare market. i don't think it's the best time to put money in the market. i would wait until it begins to rise again. gerri: it's a pull bank. >> it's pullback. we're paying the price for early overevaluation. at the end of last year the market was overvalued by 10 to
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15%. it was vulnerable weaker than expected readings on economic activity, consumer spending, and the world economy. gerri: i don't want to be too silly, i think this is -- when the market is tanking like this. it's not the time you get out. you can't catch a falling knife. you don't want to do that; right? >> that's right. gerri: you deponent where it's going next. you may want to buy back in and prices might be higher when you buy back in. >> we still see profits this year. the equity market is forcing the bond market to reconsider these earlier forecasts of the treasury bond yield of 3% or higher. we've add the 10-year treasure toy make it 3% twice since the talk started inspect each instance, the 10-year treasury has moved lower. the latest episode being quite deep. i wouldn't be surprised that today's 2.58 percent treasury yield in the not so distant future approaches canada's
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10-year government bond yield of only 2.3%. . gerri: you think yields are going down? >> i think they have to go down to stable the market and remain a sub par, dull economic recovery that is disinflationary. gerri: watch out. i want to talk to you. you brought up the fed a little bit about janet yellen. testified in front of congress. we listened carefully to the testimony. there were remarks i don't think people picked up on. she talked about the low rate of environment and impact in particular on seniors. seniors who rely on savings just to get by. here is what janet yellen said. >> if you want to get back to business as usual in a normal monetary policy and normal interest rates, i would say you need do that by getting the economy back to normal and that's what this policy, i hope, will succeed in doing.
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the other thing, i think it's important to recognize that seniors wear a lot of hats. they play many different roles in the economy. they may be retirees who are hoping to get part-time work in order to supplement their income. gerri: did she say what i thought she said? it sounded like she said -- she was sworn in today. it sounds like if the seniors have to work, keep working, that's okay by me. it doesn't sound like anything anybody wants to hear. >> understandably a good number of seniors will be shocked by the statement. they are suffering from quite an reduction in interest income. it's weigh on the living standards and so on. i would love to see the rates on savings accounts begin to move higher. gerri: these are people that saved all of their lives. these are people prepared for retirement. >> you know what else is important not just for seniors inspect general we have to save more, especially the young have to save more.
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they can't be relying on the government to take care of them any time they run to a cash shortfall. in a way, is what the affordable care act intends to do. gerri: i have to tell you. the policy of the fed is taking money out of senior's pockets. at the end day, they need to have a decent return. they're there -- >> it's not only a problem for seniors. it's a problem for banks. banks would be more willing to lend a to small businesses if the federal funds rate was somewhat higher so they could earn a greater return. gerri: quickly. we don't have lot of time left. i want to ask you your forecast for the jobs report on friday. >> i think about 165,000 jobs. i wouldn't be surprised if the unemployment rate moves a little bit higher. all of that good news we have at end of 2013, i think grossly overstated the underlying health of the u.s. economy. it remains a moderate recovery by no means can it be deemed
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robust or brisk. gerri: i'm tired of the m-word. we need robust recovery. thank you for coming on tonight. it's great to have you here. we have more, more, more to come this. including for you thought your heating bill was high enough. congress has a different idea. you just have to live with. it that's what the officials behind the health are telling fed up customers. incredible. details next.
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gerri: bach can't fix the own mistakes. we talked about them. now thousand of complaints over obamacare enrollment errors from consumers getting charactered too much to being denied coverage are sitting on a government data base untouched. according to the what's post there's not a system to fix the errors. joining me john miller. and dr. kevin campbell. a cardiologist. you are sitting with you, what do you make of this 22,000 people trying to complaint. they can't do it. >> it doesn't surprise me. at the jut set they can't enroll people properly now to get the
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numbers where the president would like to see them. they rush this through. there's errors, there's inaccurate information being transmitted. they there no way to fix it. they have nobody allocated to the time. gerri: the what's post said there's no review and fair hearings has been created. let alone become operational. i cannot get over the sheer incompetence around the program. what do you say about this? >> it's more than incompetent. it's almost callous disregard for the customers you are supposed to be serving. the administration perfected the error-making process. it hasn't worked hard at the error-corrections side of it. [laughter] they are driven by a goal 77 getting as much volume of possible by any means necessary. it's only metric that matters. everybody else has to live with under the hood which is a faulty process. get used to it. there will be more coming in the
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future. gerri: i know a lot of people out there sit back and think i've heard so much about all of these mistakes all the problems, but this to me is a more part of the back end never built. they launched the entire obamacare website, and they had no way for people to pay for their services. they hadn't closed the door. >> i think that's exactly right. this was more about meeting deadlines for political reasons for legacy reasons and thing of that sort. instead of properly testing this website. making sure that all of the entire process goes all the way through. ultimately, the administration is hurting the very people they're claiming to help with this obamacare legislation. gerri: "fox news" bill o'i are lee had a conversation with the. here is what the president had to say about the architect of the system, kathleen into yous. >> i'm a taxpayer and i'm paying her salary and she screwed up.
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you're not holding her accountable. >> i promise you we hold everybody accountable. >> it's a little more mid stream. we want to make sure that our main focus is how do we make it work so people are able to sign up. that's what we want. gerri: what do you make of that rational the president gave us? >> secretary is playing two roles. i know, nothing or he pointing larger game of life. now certainly her record has been terrible. we're replacing her alone doesn't replace the faulty policies. so it's nice to take a hostage along the way. there are deeper problems. gerri: one of the deeper problems we've talked about is how far behind the obamacare website was in launching. weeks and weeks go by. nothing happens. here is what the president had to say about the launch and about the time frame.
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>> we all anticipated there would be glitches because any time you have technology, a new program rolling out, there are glitches. i don't think i anticipated or anybody anticipated the degree to the problems with the website. the good news is, that the right away we decided how we were going fix it. they got fixed within a month and a half. it was up and running and now it's working the way it's supposed to we are signed up 3 million people. we are about a month behind. >> he has part that have right. he said we didn't anticipate the number of glitches we had. i don't think anybody could see that coming. but what do you make of his comment that they're only a month behind. >> not even close. i think it's phony numbers. i think that if you look at the numbers almost 11% of the people wwo are actually enrolled and we think have paid for weren't previously uninsured. young people are not signing up as they said they wait until the last minute. they passed. they are smart enough to realize they are better off paying a tax
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penalty than signing up for obamacare. gerri: tom, do you agree? >> aside from the exaggeration on the numbers. what the administration is counting on is inevitability. you have to slug your shoulders, get used to bad service. they're trying to run out the clock regardless of how bad the performance is. gerri: run out the clock. tom and dr. campbell thanking you for coming on. amazing story still on obamacare. and later in the show, the middle class -- the middle class continues to decline. but who or what is to blame? and that's more trouble for homeowners as congress decides to raise fees on heating oil in the midst of one the coldest winters ever. stay with us.
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heating bills dipping up as temperatures
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♪ gerri: you know the cold weather is taking toll on homeowners' heating bills this winter. get this, a hidden in the farm bill a fee which cleared the key test of those in the senate. it's expected to pass tomorrow. it's a provision to reinstate a tax on home heating oil. stated simply -- you're going pay more and it's congress' fault. joining me now the research fellow and regulatory policy at the heritage foundation. welcome to the show. i could not get over this story. let's talk about what this fee is and how much it is. >> this fee is one of dozens of similar taxes that consumers pay
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because congress allows special interests to, you know, take money from us in order to fund their -- gerri: the money goes to the organizations. and this one in particular is the national oil heat research alliance. whoever the heck that is. who are these people and why do they need my taxpayer dollars? >> well, whether they need your taxpayer dollars or not is one question. [laughter] they're getting it. and these are primarily providers of home heating oil as well as heating oil used in stores, in hospitals, in dormitories, and the tax amounts to about two tenths of cent per gallon. which is not a huge amount, but coupled with all the other similar taxes on other products, it begins to add up. gerri: no kidding. >> the greater -- gerri: no kidding. >> yeah, right. gerri: look, people who use heating oil in their homes are
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typically in the northeast, typically older, typically older homes. probably on fixed incomes. this is not a recipe for a bunch of people you should bilk out of money. if it is at the low level and cents on the gallon. do you agree? >> i do agree. and many of the homes that use home heating oil are older homes, too. they are less efficient in many respects. the big concern for me; however, is that congress is a i lowing the force of the federal government in term of the taxes authority to collect funds for private interests that get to use these funds in any way they please. and that is -- i have a big problem with that. gerri: i understand what you're saying. i can't believe they're doing this. i know, that there are details in this bill that prohibit them from giving -- making -- forcing us to pay for it. you know at the end of the day it's going to come out of consumer's pockets. thank you for coming on the show tonight. great job. thank you for telling us about
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this. we appreciate your time. >> thank you. now we want to know what you think. here is the question tonight. should congress -- should congress raise taxes -- think about this. on heating oil in the middle of the worst winter in a decade? you know how i feel. you can tell from my voice. vote on the right-hand side of the screen on there are crazy people in washington. many traders are blaming emerging markets for the recent string of losses. we are looking out for you and and your money. more evidence of a massive middle class squeeze as companies say business is hurting. we'll have the details. ♪ ♪
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then we gave each person a ribbon to show how many years that amount migight last. i was trying to, like, pull it a little further. [ woman ] me to 70 years old. i'm gog have to rethink this thing. it's hard to imagin how much we'll need for a retirement that could last 3years or mor so maybe we need to approach things dferently, if we want to be ready for a longer retirement. ♪
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open to innovation. open to ambition. open to boldids. that's why n york has a new plan -- dozens of tax free zones all across the state. move here, expand here, or start new business here and pay ntaxes for ten years... we're new york. if there's something that creates more jobs, and ows more businesses... we're open to it. start a tax-free business at
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>> from a fox business studios, here is gerri willis. it the one on capitol hill come in the argument over the growing divide from the wealthy and the poor in america is prominent. it was really the victim here? is the problem really the concentration of wealth? twenty now is a fox news contributor and jamie cox. and the author of you can never be too rich. jamie, i want to start with you. is the middle-class losing ground? is a getting squeezed? >> i think on the lower end of the middle-class, absolutely. i think that those folks who have a share of income for necessities, it is greater than 75%. these folks are enduring tax increase as and high commodity costs and inflation of products around the world. and that's having a huge impact on those folks and the middle-class is shrinking.
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gerri: they are facing a terrible job market. when you look at as we look at it from the business side and what you find is a lot of middle-class retailers. what do you say. >> everything thatan do, the mis can do better. if you give more money to the wealthy they will put it in stocks.
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gerri: does the middle-class tax with their money into stocks? >> well, the average 401k is less than $20,000 in this country. gerri: what she is saying is that it's really the problem of the 1%. taking too much and come out of the system. >> some of the retailers and things that we are talking about are outdated business models. and these are catering to the middle-class and they are opening up their pocket books. such is a target that revamped itself or a jcpenney and sears.
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gerri: people who at are at the top of the totem pole were spending like it's anybody's business. and use a 1% had too much of a catch, do you feel like there is a confined pot of money for income? and 1% take too much money, that means that there's less for everyone else? >> it shouldn't be confined. the reality is americans are working harder and harder for less. and there are two ways of fixing
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this. we have a strong correlation between a stronger and larger union. and increase the minimum wage. gerri: in the minimum wage, is that the thing? >> i disagree with that because of you increase the minimum wage, they are going to reduce the amount of hires and it can be counterproductive for sure. the answer lies in education. and i know a lot of people that have made phenomenal lives for themselves. gerri: when we come back, the
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gerri: investors pulling money from an emerging market since august 2011. last week nearly $6.5 million was yanked out of these stock funds. so why are these markets breaking down? here is the editor of the global contrarian. it's great to have you on the show. i want you to dig down with me because a lot of us are getting our arms around this emerging market. what originally looked like a real currency issue?
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>> what is happening is if you think of a theater that is filling up with more and more keep all, at some point someone strikes a match at the same time and someone says fire and there is no fire. but there are a couple of lit matches. gerri: what are those matches? >> is starting to taper and we have china. in china we have growth going from around eight or 9% for the very long time give or take. and that is spooking a lot of people. so what is happening right now is that if you keep old are yelling fire. we have seen emerging market for the whole go down about 8%. gerri: explain, if you would, the issue at the federal reserve. it makes lots of sense to me.
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but why is it hitting south africa and russia? it is funny because i office eke with people and what is the federal reserve going to do next. because it's easy to forget that the u.s. is the world's largest economy in everything that the fed does has an enormous impact on the rest of the world in terms of the quiddity and money available. and as soon as the federal reserve starts pulling back on the money that is pumped into the system, it's not as the american economy but it's a local economies be one let me ask you something there. isn't the fact that investors were making comparisons between the yields on our treasury, searching for something that would pay more. where they can go into emerging markets and get a better return. now that it's closing by the that come it's making everyone recalibrate the best investment for them can. >> i think part of it is that people are saying a complaint interest rates in the united
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states are going to rise or it's a maybe that is not quite as attractive and i can actually get more than .0%. another part is the economy slowing down because as soon as liquidity goes down, a lot of people are concerned that other markets around the world will be the growth decelerating quite sharply and as soon as that happens, the attractiveness of the stocks falls sharply. gerri: showing folks the currency depreciation that is going on. argentina, the peso is down 20%. in turkey it fell 6%. iran, or to 7%. so it is pretty dramatic step area and when you step back and look at all the emerging markets, where do you see the opportunity and what do you think might be the right place but money and?
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>> i think you've made a good point that the emerging markets have a hugely diverse path. there are some countries that are doing quite well and others are not. if i had a fairly long-term perspective, maybe more than a year, i would be looking at starting to focus on some countries where valuations are low and where the appreciations might actually help underlying companies. gerri: what would you say would be the good places to invest? keeping in mind that i know a lot of people worry about if i put my money into this emerging market that.
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>> some others have been beaten down and where a lot of bad news is already in there. gerri: what would those markets be? >> and problems in south africa are going to lead to eventually this type of increase. gerri: thank you for coming on. it's really interesting. gerri: it is time for a look at stories on fox the market taking a nosedive today. experts are calling this the correction that is long overdue. and a drop of 10% for the market correction. down more than 5% at the end of last year. in taking over as the chair of the federal reserve. the first woman to lead the fed
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in the hundred year history. she made no remarks at her swearing-in. jacob lew said emergency measures will go into place after friday to avoid defaulting on the national debt. congress extended the debt limit last october to reopen the government and that suspension ends this week to the emergency measures will only last until the end of the month. and these are some of the hot stories right now on fox we have more to come. my "two cents more". we have some us your advice for small business owners on finding the right retirement plan for your workers. peace of mind is important when you're running a successful business.
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gerri: choosing a retirement plan for your small business is no easy task. we have expert advice coming out
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gerri: choosing the right retirement plan can help you save in the long run. and you say what you have to figure out is what is suitable for you. can you tell us about that? >> absolutely, thank you for having me on the show. when a small business owner
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chooses a retirement plan, there are different processes that they need to take into consideration. what they don't want to have happen is a tour three years down the road they find out that it's not suitable so they have to look at the features and benefits of each retirement plan and take out those features and benefits for the business profile. gerri: what does that mean? >> i will give you an example. and we are making sure what they say with the business. for such an employer the ira may be a suitable plan or they may say i have a high turnover of employees, i don't want my employees to take the money and run. therefore i'm going to do it as a profit sharing plan and include a vesting schedule and i
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will take my money back because i don't think you deserve it because you haven't even me this. so those are some of the things. gerri: there's a lot to think about and i know there are a lot of plans out there. one of the things that folks should consider is administrative costs. can you tell me about that? >> absolutely. especially if the businesses business is a new business or they have not established a pattern of having profits every year. one of the questions we have to ask ourselves is how much is this going to cost me because the cost is not just funding each employee's account for some plans like the 401k plan you have this with professionals who are going to charge you on this and make sure that it is a regulation like this. you may think that that is not much money. but for new business it is a big deal. gerri: what i wish employers would consider are the fees
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associated with it. because that just robs money from your employees retirement. is there a way to think about this? are you telling folks to think about this? >> absolutely, we do. in some cases the fees are up become the responsibility of individual and ways. in one of the plants i like to recommend is an ira. once contributions aren't deposited to this it becomes the employee's responsibility to invest that account. so that employees responsible for shopping around for an advisor and that is going to give them the best investment for their retirement account and their investment profile. gerri: okay. i want to talk a little bit about this next idea which is if i have a small company, i'm probably thinking about what i want in my own retirement plan. how much of that should be a consideration with what i need
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and what i think i'm doing. >> absolutely, let's face it. even thougg the law says that they have to cover the employees. they want to do it in the first place because they are trying to point out their retirement mistakes. it's just that by extension they have to cover this as well. and that brings us to a very important point because what i am seeing is small businesses are meeting financial advisors and tax professionals and no one is talking about the employees or the law says if you cover yourself you have to cover your employees as well as long as they're eligible to what we find happening is that we are looking at retirement plan that have been in existence for 10 or 15 or 20 years. so the question becomes playing catch-up and it's very costly for these small businesses which
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includes the contributions and those that were covert. gerri: fascinating stuff, we appreciate it. >> thank you for having me. gerri: when you decide to retire, you may not be able to maintain that standard of living that you have become accustomed to. but luckily we have a look at the top five places where you can retire comfortably and affordably. number five is grand rapids michigan. and a monthly ortgage payment is only around $436. in greenville, south carolina, none of these cities have state taxes on social security. and number three is nature lovers will enjoy this monthly mortgage payment. and one of the benefits of idaho state university, offering classes to those 15 and older from modest fee.
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the number one place to retire is daytona beach, florida. the median home price of less than $109,000 and earn a they taxes on pensions. and others include erie pennsylvania and we will be right back.
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♪ see what's new at can you start tomorrow? yes sir. alright. let's share the news tomorrow. today we failrly busy. tomorrow we're booked solid. we close on the house tomorrow. i want one of these opened up. because tomorow we go live... it's a day full of promise. and often, that day arrives by train. big day today? even bigger one tomorrow. when csx trains move forward, so does the rest of the economy. csx. how tomorrow moves.
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open to innovation. open to ambition. open to ldids. that's why n york has a new plan -- dozens of tax free zones all across the state. move here, expand here, or start a new business her and pay no taxes for ten years... we're new york. if there's something that creates moreobs, and ows more businesses... we're open to it. start a tax-free business at how much money do yothink you'll need when you retire? then we gave each person a ribbon to show how many years that amount might last. i was trying to, like, pull it a little further. [ woman ] got me to 70 years old. i'm going have to rethink this thing. it's hard to imagin how much we'll need for a retirement that could last 3years or mor
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so maybe we need to approach ings dferently, if we want to be ready for a longer retirement. ♪ gerri: those are you who heat our home with oil will soon pay more thanks to new fees and posts go i congress in latest farm bill, should congress raise taxes on heating ale in the middle of winter? peggy writes, they should never impose taxes on things that are a basic necessity, sandy agrees, no, only people using heating oil are people with no other options. when i lived on long island, lipa would not make natural gas
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available, log on to for our on-line question every weekday. >> a viewer from oregon writes, the economy i am existing in gets a bit more difficult and costly every week. wouldn't be so bad if i wasn't retired and existing on a pension. rising medical bills don't help. >> and jeff from california, agrees, the economy is doing worse for workers and small business but well enough for those with capital. large corporations will endure with less competition from smal businesses but this reduces the ability of small businesses to kick-start the economy with robust hiring, here is joesy from arkansas. the biggest problem with common core, an educational system we've been talking about, it too general for common core to do what it is built to do it needs to be measurable and linear,
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what they are striving for is deeper understanding than merely memorizing, we love hearing from you, send me an e-mail, go to >> i imagine some of you today have been looking at dow industrials performance, down 326 points look at that chart, ouch, thinking about at least i was, return of my money rather than the return on my money. i know the feeling, i am invested too. but one smart mannedvised this today, don't just do something, stand there. in other words doing nothing, standing pat may be the smartest move right now, why? because you don't know what is going to happen tomorrow, professional investors many have the fortitude of third graderss3 issue they could change their minds about the markets at any given time.
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that is my two cents more. that is it for tonight's willis report, thank you for joining us, dvr the show if you can't catch us live, have a great night. night. >> super bowl score of lopsided, seahawks dominated but a lot of folks were watching fox sports super event, and washington is abuzz about the pregame fireworks between president obama and bill o'reilly. during a combative 10 minutes bill grilled obama on benghazi, the irs targets of conservative groups and, of course, obamacare, the clash of the big o's and outcome, here tonight. and january, a bad month for stocks, february off to a worse start. how many worse? investors today pummeled th. the dow


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