tv Lou Dobbs Tonight FOX Business November 24, 2014 10:00pm-11:01pm EST
very good point, alan. he could have been complaining about it and this is a travesty. i think i had a good case. he didn't do any of that. >> didn't do any -- and as a matter of fact, when he was asked whether or not he would go after people who perjured themselves, he said, no, i'm not going to do that. but i think the biggest lesson we need to learn out of this is the media. the media went in and, you know, took a story that was a false narrative, and they ran with it. and i think they really created the situation and the scene that we saw in ferguson. and thank god, like he said, physical evidence does not lie. and that is what came forward tonight. neil: all right. these are the scenes we're getting right now live out of figure soften, missouri. we've seen -- ferguson, missouri. we've seen sporadic acts of protest in chicago, seattle, port lambed, nothing to the degree or numbers that we were seeing in missouri. but, again, for protesters, some who might have been hoping for a cause celebre or to make
something bigger out of this and maybe it was warranted, the scene in new york city more like quiet, stunned reaction than anything else. what is your message then, congressman, to america tonight? >> the message to america is stop, you know, following the media's sensationalism, you know? and allow the rule of law and the system of justice that we have to play through. and the truth came out. and what -- when i listened to what jesse jackson was saying, he talked about the consequences of the officer's actions. what about the consequences of michael brown's actions? and we have got to get to a point where we hold individuals responsible for their actions. and when jesse jackson is talking about we don't have blacks that are attacking or killing white officers, obviously he has not read the case of captain kevin quick in virginia where the four black gang members of -- neil: very good point. >> yeah. and so is, again, here is the false narrative being put out there, and someone needs to call
jesse jackson out on that. neil: you know, thank you, congressman, as always. i appreciate your insight, especially on a night like this. katrina, now we're looking at the increased presence of troops and guardsmen in ferguson, but perhaps the most pivotal role today was not from the prosecutor, but from the brown family. very disappointed in the decision but honoring it, honoring it and urging peace. a message as well to the president? >> i think it's a classic message. they lost their son. if anyone has a right to be angry and volatile about this, it's the family. and the fact that they've accepted what the grand jury has come up with, they are privy to all of the evidence as well, and they're going to accept that and want everyone to be peaceful. i think that should be respected, and i think the president needs to also follow their lead. neil: all right. you know there are going to be agitators in the crowd in ferguson as there in new york. >> everywhere. neil: there's always a few. and it might get disrupterrive,
and police -- disruptive, and police have to watch how they respond. we're going to see incidents of that tonight. we're seeing a little bit now. how do you think all this goes? >> i think like you said there will be agitators, sometimes there are people looking for a reason to act out, and they're going to use tonight as one of those things. i think police are going to be very careful with the way they handle them. everyone has their camera phones out. neil: that's true. >> i don't think it's going to be as bad as people were anticipating. neil: all right, now to your point and the colonel's point earlier, the president and his justice department had been talking about the fact that the decision did not come down to their liking, paraphrasing here, they could take matters into their own hands. again to your point, the prosecutor made it very clear there's really no reason to, guys. this was exhaustively gone over. this jury did a great job. they didn't do what i wanted them to do, but they did a great job. let's honor it, let's respect it. i think he's saying let's move on from it. >> he is. that's our system, and we have a system. it worked in this case, they did a thorough job. who else does three autopsies
with three different agencies? neil: why did they do that? >> i think they did it so they could be thorough, so they could keep the feds from coming in and causing more trouble. there are citizens there. that prosecutor, that governor, they have to deal with whatever comes out of this particular case, so i think they did it the right way. maybe overdid it, actually, with the evidence and came down. he gave both sides, he's making it public, and i think this is over. >> katrina, thank you very much. brad wheeler, former detective. that was, apparently, crucial in the end for the jury's ultimate findings, that darren wilson was not the official aggressor, and michael brown wasn't shot once in the back. that flew in the face of a lot of rumors and original witness testimony that this jury had to sort through and essentially debunked, right? >> well, you're right about that, neil. and, obviously, they're going to release all of the information, according to mcculloch, tonight, they're going to release the entire case jacket, case file is what we like to call it.
and i think it's -- neil: is that usual, rod, to do that? >> no, that's not usual, and that's important. i'm glad you brought that up. that's not usual at all. but there's a few things in this case, to be honest, that has been a little unusual to me. you know, i've had a number of cases where we've presented to the grand jury, and this case was handled a lot differently. not to say that the outcome would have been different, but this is one point that i want to make, neil. i've spent a significant amount of time in ferguson. matter of fact, i just got back to d.c. today from ferguson from being there a week. and this issue with michael brown is not only about michael brown. this issue, i believe, could have been avoided if the city government, if the president and if everybody else would have been involved in that community. there were so many issues going on in that community, and people that i interviewed, neil, from that community, everybody said this was a time bomb waiting to go off. neil: how so, rod? the federal government too quickly, intruded too quickly? >> no, no, no, i mean leading up
same. >> you know, i didn't get the sentiment that people were going to be as aggressive this time as they were back in august. and i think the weather plays a huge role, believe it or not. it was cold, it's cold and rainy out there now, and that definitely helps law enforcement. so i just don't think we're going to see the same level. will we see some? absolutely. we're seeing it now on the screen, but i don't think we're going to see the same level of emotion. neal neil all it takes is one outright nut as we get the under two minute warning for the president to make, you know, a critical situation a crisis. how do police guard against that? >> well, you know, they can only respond to that, but i must say real quickly, i know we don't
have a lot of time, but the police, actually, the fbi arrested two individuals this past week that was trying to buy explosive material so that when this decision came down, they could light the bomb. thankfully, law enforcement was able to intercept that. and it's situations like that that i have to applaud our law enforcement for because they presented something bad from happening. neil: i'm hardly one to take a leap here but, katrina, from what you've seen thus far, surprisingly calm. >> surprisingly calm, yes. i didn't expect it to be this calm, but i didn't expect it to be eruptive east. and i anticipate -- either, and i anticipated a no indictment. but like you said, there's going to be some of those characters -- neil: then what is the president to do to keep it calm or to try to keep a lid on it? >> the president needs to fall in line with the family, with the prosecutor and with the grand grand jury. keep it the same, everything's the same. if he comes in and says i'm going to get involved, that's going to give them the okay, it's going to give them the cue
to go out and cause more trouble because they're going to think that the president is supporting them in this effort. neil: and the president's already indicated that a travesty happened here which is, clearly, you know, accurate, but to take it that it was a deliberate racial thing carries the insinuation even further. >> absolutely. neil: in the end, do you think this spreads to other cities, or do you think the grand jury did such an exhaustive job, even detailed by the prosecutor himself, that maybe it mitigates that? >> i think it mitigates that -- neil: all right, the president. >> as all of you know, a few minutes ago the grand jury deliberating the death of michael brown issued its decision. it's now come that either way -- it's an outcome that either way was going to be a subject of intense disagreement not only in ferguson, but across america, so i just want to say a few words suggesting how we might move forward. first and foremost, we are a nation built on the rule of law. and so we need to accept that
this decision was the grand jury's to make. there are americans who agree with it, and there are americans who are deeply disappointed, even angry. it's an understandable reaction. but i join michael's parents in asking anyone who protests this decision to do so peacefully. let me repeat michael's father's words. hurting others or destroying property is not the answer. no matter what the grand jury decides, i do not want my son's death to be in vain. i want it to lead to incredible change, positive change, change that makes the st. louis region better for everyone. now, michael brown's parents have lost more than anyone. we should be honoring their
wishes. i also appeal to the law enforcement officials in ferguson and the region to show care and restraint in managing peaceful protests that may occur. understand, our police officers put their lives on the line for us every single day. they've got a tough job to do to maintain public safety and hold accountable those who break the law. as they do their jobs in the coming days, they need to work with the community, not against the community, to distinguish the handful of people who may use the grand jury's decision as an excuse for violence, distinguish them from the vast majority who just want their voices heard around legitimate issues in terms of how communities and law enforcement interact. finally, we knead to recognize that the situation -- we need to recognize that the situation in
ferguson speaks to broader challenges that we still face as a nation. the fact is in too many parts of this country a deep distrust exists between law enforcement and communities of color. some of this is the result of the legacy of racial discrimination in this country, and this is tragedy you can because nobody needs -- tragic because nobody needs good policing more than poor communities with higher crime rates. the good news is we know there are things we can do to help, and i've instructed attorney general holder to work with cities across the country to help build better relations between communities and law enforcement. that means working with law enforcement officials to make sure their ranks are representative of the communities they serve. we know that makes a difference. that means working to train officials so that law enforcement conducts itself in a way that is fair to everybody.
it means enlisting the community actively on what should be everybody's goal, and that is to prevent crime. and there are good people on all sides of this debate as well as in both republican and democratic parties that are interested not only in lifting up best practices because we know that there are communities who have been able to deal with this in an effective way, but also who are interested in working with this administration and local and state officials to start tackling much needed criminal justice reform. so those should be the lessons that we draw from these tragic events. we need to recognize that this is not just an issue for ferguson, this is an issue for america. we have made enormous progress in race relations over the
course of the past several decades. i have witnessed that in my own life, and to deny that progress, i think, is to deny america's capacity for change. but what is also true is that there are still problems, and communities of color aren't just making these problems up. separating that from this particular decision, there are issues in which the law too often feels as if it is being applied in a discriminatory fashion. i don't think that's the norm, i don't think that's true for the majority of communities or the vast majority of law enforcement officials. but these are real issues. and we have to lift them up and not deny them or try to tamp them down. what we need to do is to understand them and figure out how do we make more progress.
and that can be done. that won't be done by throwing bottles, that won't be done by smashing car windows, that won't be done by using this as an excuse to vandalize property, and it certainly won't be done by hurting anybody. so to those in ferguson, there are ways of channeling your concerns constructively, and there are ways of channeling your concerns destructively. and michael brown's parents understand what it means to be constructive. the vast majority of peaceful protesters, they understand it as well. those of you who are watching tonight understand that there's never an excuse for violence particularly when there are a lot of people and goodwill out
there who are willing to work on these issues. on the other hand, those who are only interested in focusing on the violence and just want the problem to go away need to recognize that we do have work to do here, and we shouldn't try to paper it over. whenever we do that, the anger may momentarily subside, but over time it builds up, and america isn't everything that it could be. and i am confident that if we focus our attention on the problem and we look at what has happened in communities around the country effectively, then we can make progress not just in ferguson, but in a lot of other cities and communities around the country. okay? >> mr. president -- [inaudible] when things settle down there? >> well, you know, let's take a look and see how things are going. we've had a whole team from the
justice department there, eric holder's been there, and i think that they have done some very good work. as i said, the vast majority of the community has been working very hard to to try to make sure that this becomes an opportunity for us to seize the moment. and turn this into a positive situation. but i think that we have to make sure that we focus at least as much attention on all those positive activities that are taking place as we do on a handful of folks who end up using this as an excuse to misbehave or to brach the law or to engage -- or to break the law or to engage in violence. i think it's going to be very important, and i think the media's going to have a respondent as well -- a respondent as well, to make sure that we focus on michael brown's parents and the clergy and the
community leaders and the civil rights leaders and the activists and law enforcement officials who have been working very hard to try to find better solutions, long-term solutions to this issue. there is inevitably going to be some negative reaction, and it'll make for good tv. but what we want to do is to make sure that we're also focusing on those who can offer the kind of real progress that we know is possible and that the vast majority of people in ferguson, the st. louis region in missouri and around the country are looking for. and i want to be partners with those folks, and we need to lift up that kind of constructive dialogue that's taking place, all right? thank you very much, everybody. >> mr. president -- [inaudible] [inaudible conversations] neil: all right, guys, things are escalating right now.
ralph, if we can go full here to what's going on in ferguson, and we will carry this through 11 p.m., because things have escalated. enough we understand they're throwing molotov cocktails and smoke bombs and trying to turn over cars. and, again, it might be just the actions of a few, but that's all but necessary. the president say ising we should heed the word of michael brown's family. that they are disappointed, and devastatingly so, they respect the grand jury's wishes. he left out, that is the president, in his remarks any mention of officer darren wilson who was exonerated tonight or at least faced not a single indictment tonight. darren wilson's legal team has put out a statement in the meantime saying we recognize that many people will want to second guess the grand jury's decision. we would encourage anyone who wants to express an opinion to do so in a respectful and peaceful manner. on a side note, officer will soften would like to thank those who have stood by his side
throughout the process. this continued support is greatly appreciated by officer wilson and his family. moving forward any commentary on this manner will be done in the appropriate venue and not through the media. what do you make, katrina, of the fact that the president left out any mention of darren wilson? >> well, i think that he had no intention on addressing this issue at all when it comes to the officer. but i thought it was interesting, he started out very strong. he says we're going to follow the grand jury, he read the father's statements and said let's just be peaceful. but then he took a turn and then went down the drain with i'm going to have the justice system go into all the police departments across the country -- neil: and hold open i might go to ferguson which could in and of itself be contentious. >> it could be contentious. neil: i'm wondering, too, ralph, remind me if mr. ennis is still
there or any of our prior guests, but do you get the sense that the president was disappointed in this decision to the point that he would be tempted to have the justice department re-examine this whether eric holder's leaving or not? because i initially, to your point, got the impression, all right, this is not what i envisioned, this this is not whi like, i didn't mention darren wilson's name for a reason, but i'm going to deal with it. and at the end he's sounding like he's angry about it. >> i don't think he's disappointed. again, i think all the evidence was out there. like i said, this was not a trayvon martin, innocent kid. this was a guy who was a thief and bullied a cop. so i don't think he was disappointed. i think he honestly feels like justice was served in this case, but i also think he sees this now as an opportunity to put the federal government into the hearts of the police departments all across this country. neil: all right. there's so much we don't know and, again, you could see just the sheer presence of the media in those crowds, just the presence of the media, i guess,
by extension fox, we can easily perpetuate something that would otherwise be calm. be that as it may, there are always agitators as there are in ferguson as we speak in union square in new york, as we speak, in boston and in pittsburgh, in a number of cities across this country where there have been sporadic demonstrations. i stress nonviolent, but as they say, the night is still young. who better to talk to about just trying to keep the calm than someone in the king namely, as in martin luther king, the niece of the great civil rights activist whose dad also experienced firsthand the destruction of violence and what it did. her house was bombed when she was butt a child -- but a child, the same with martin luther king's house when the king children were very, very young. both men famously told those gathering outside in the ruins of those homes not to respond in kind.
alvita, that's a lot easier said than done. how do you keep the calm tonight? >> i believe, neil -- and thank you for inviting me to speak to this wonderful listening and viewing audience. i've been watching very closely everything that is happening there in ferguson. i just left st. louis this morning, was in a prayer meeting with many of those people last night -- can you still hear me? neil: i can hear you, alvita. >> okay. you know what was missing in a lot of conversations, the president's conversation -- [audio difficulty] what is wrong with our system. [audio difficulty] african-american men where they end up in these places.
so what is wrong with our society where there is no opportunity for hope for access to a better life? we don't know what michael may have become. and so we're debating still about whether or not the officer should have been indicted, but nobody's asking with the system that he's -- [inaudible] neil: do you think these incidents occur in economically challenged areas, alvita, i mean, whether it was watts in the '60s or throughout the south in a lot of the battered communities after your uncle was killed that it's not an accident, it's not merely coincidence that that's the case, that if the unemployment rate were lower for minorities, if the economy were better for all, would we still see this happen to the degree it has and
does? >> that's the mr. cavuto i know. i know you have answered the question by asking the question. we know and the models that work most successfully in communities, when people have an opportunity to work, contribute to that society, a lower unemployment rate, then they are more content, more productive, and they feel as if they have more dignity, more hope, more opportunity and access to a better life. when i ran for office many years ago, that was my platform, and it still remains the same. a better quality of life. life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. and that's not what is being offered in these instances. and to go back and say, well, police brutality or racism or michael brown put himself in that situation -- [inaudible] can be considered and asked, but the bottom line is we need to
make society better for all people. and we're not doing that. and so that is the question that we really have to get to, those systemic issues. and they are rooted in the economy, we'll admit that, and in the moral and spiritual design of human beings. those are the two places that we really have to get to. neil: i remember when you and i were last together, alveda, we were bemoaning declining church attendance. church attendance is down, and i'm wondering if that feeds this as well. it's not that we've lost god, but we're kind of losing our touch with god. and either that younger people don't care or that society's increasingly secularized, don't give it much thought. you say that's a big mistake. >> it is a big mistake. my uncle once said, my uncle m.l., martin luther king jr., he said the law may not be able to make someone love me, but it can
keep them from lynching me. so the law has its place, but obviously that love, respect, regard comes from the human heart. those moral issues can only be answered by god and learning more about god and having a proper relationship with god for me as a christian with jesus christ, you say. so we're not addressing those issues. they're taking prayer out of school, for example, and people are being turned against each other rather than forced to love -- [inaudible] neil: alveda, that is very well put and who better to put it on a night like this, on a day like this, on huge developments like this. always appreciate your insight and your friendship. doctor, thank you very much. >> thank you, my friend. good night. neil: dr. alveda king. you think about it, part of what's going on is the loss of faith in the system. and whether that's just shared by angry young african-americans
or just those disadvantaged, that distrust thrives. did the president do anything tonight to dial that back? >> no, i don't think so. i think the fact that he didn't jump right in and say i'm coming to ferguson helped. but then he added that one piece, i'm going to get involved in the police stations -- neil: because i don't like what happened here. that was the inference. >> injustice going on. i think that is the problem. but as to mrs. king, she is right on. the problem is education. it's not jobs, it's not diversity, as the president would like to say, it's education. education is the one way that creates a level playing ground for jobs, for resources, and you don't have that in these communities. the public school system, all those schools were unaccredited. these kids are not being educated, and it's just, it's a tragedy. but the one thing the president should have said to fix this problem across the country is i'm going to rein back the department of education and allow parents to take part in
their school choices. neil: well, one big herculean moment at a time. >> there you go. neil: i want to bring my friend and colleague charles payne into this conversation here, he joins us on the phone. charles, i'm sure you're aware what's going on, the garage comes down -- grand jury comes down with not a single indictment against officer wilson. mild violence, and i stress mild violence, molotov cocktails sporadic though it is, you know how this goes, how would you advise z folks in that community tonight? >> well, you know, i heard the previous guest talk about education. that's obviously a huge cornerstone. i think the most important thing is to say we're going the change this. the way you change things is you've got to make it happen. and in this particular case it's got to be, first and foremost, you've got to say it's going to take a long time. it's not about a long time with respect to relationships with the police or race or anything like that, it's just a long time
to get the community to be a force -- neil: what does that mean, charles? the community is looking like some of it's in force tonight. >> yeah, but you've got to be more than a knee jerk, physical force. you've got to be a force that -- i mean, listen, there's no one in that town who can run for mayor, this overwhelmingly blacktown with an overwhelmingly black city council, hardly any black people on the police department. why aren't the black people registering to be in the police department and to do different things? but, you know, this kind of thing has been festering for a long time. i've got to tell you when i was a kid, neil, i went to see a movie called cornbread neil and me. he was an all-star basketball player, and i walked out of their crying. he was shot by the police when he was carrying a bottle of
soda. the point is this kind of thing has reverberated in the black community for a long time. and the knee jerk reaction is to say, okay, let's make an amazing commitment to education, let's make an amazing commitment to a sort of agenda that empowers us not as victims, but as people who can control their own destiny. neil: what did you make of jesse jackson more or less saying they were victims and this was a horrible decision, and the president when he made his remarks a short time later commending everyone but darren wilson? >> you know -- neil: he's not going to hug the guy, but honor the system and the grand jury and the legal process that arrived at that decision whether you like it or not? >> you know, thurgood marshall was an amazing man in this country, and he was smart enough to take the laws in this country and the constitution to give black people the rights that were written into the constitution to have them realize, martin luther king did it in a different way.
you know, we respect the laws. you don't always, we're not always happy with the way they come out, we respect them because -- it's very frustrating on two parts, you know? one part is we've got a ways to go, but more importantly, and the president just only gave the lip service quickly tonight, is that we have come an extraordinarily long way. and people like jesse jackson were complaining tonight, barack obama was elected president. you know, a cottage industry for some of these people, and we've got to turn -- [inaudible] against everyone. black, white, i don't care what your nationality is, anyone that's inciting you to feel less about yourself, anyone that's saying, hey, those people don't like you, but hide behind me, whether it's a government, a government policy, whether it's an institution, whether it's a media concern, whether it's professionals who do this from city to city, town to town, year after year never resolving anything, at some point we have to say, no, we're not going to listen to you guys. there's a blueprint out there.
the blueprint is pretty simple. look at the president, okay? get pretty good grades, go to harvard and find yourself a pretty good job. it's out there. it's out there for any person in this country. it's right there for the taking. it's not going to be easy, but it's right there. neil: that is well put, charles. thank you very much. charles payne. back with niger ennis right now, maybe you heard what charles said as things get a little rocky in ferguson tonight. areas in and armed ferguson. a number of other cities where protests are happening lance armstrong hi and mostly -- largely and mostly nonviolently. but to african-americans who are furious and those in ferguson who are angry, what do you tell them? >> stay away from the agent provocateurs. there are, you know, during the
civil rights, the classic civil rights movement of the 1950s and '60s, you often had these an around cus types that would -- anarchist types that would invade a nonviolent protest from the back of the parade, if you will, or the protest, and throw a molotov cocktail or a bottle so that they could instigate action between the police and the mostly peaceful protesters. neil: you're right. and that could be what's going on here, niger, we just don't know. our cameras roll throughout regardless. go ahead. >> i believe firmly that that is exactly what is going on here. i've been to ferguson. i've been to ferguson with dr. alveda king, aye met with residents of that community. it is a peaceful, largely peaceful community. there are legitimate, real frustrations. katrina talks about education. you know, the fact that this administration -- i don't want to go on a partisan rant, but the fact that this administration and this attorney general have waged war on school
choice and school options is incredibly important to communities all across this country. and in particular even in ferguson. i told you i met with a democrat state senate, liberal democrat. we don't agree on many issues. one issue we definitely agree upon is education. and she made the point during this, our discussion together, alveda, myself and her, that she actually got a piece of legislation passed with more republican support of education reform, with more republican support than democrats. and the democratic governor vetoed that piece of legislation! so i think there's a real opportunity if that frustration of the peaceful resident cans of ferguson and other -- residents of ferguson and other communities across this country. it's not to say that your frustration and your anger is not real. it is about -- and this is what charles said -- it is about
channeling in an intelligent, mature way that frustration into real action that can change circumstances. and holding officials in those communities that have led those commitments for 50 years or -- communities for 50 years or more which is mostly, not exclusively, but mostly liberal, big government democrats that are against any kind of school reform, that are against the kind of innovations and changes that could liberate these people -- neil: niger, you might be right on all of the above, but as it gets later into the night, these images are being beamed around the world. fox is around the world as are the other news networks, and these images are going not only to europe and asia, but at the united nations where michael brown's parents were special guests to talk about racism in the united states. does this feed that beast, and is the message that's coming out of ferguson tonight sending the wrong beastly message?
>> look, the -- that's why i keep going back to obama. all right? and, yes, i'm angry at him, but i'm really more disappointed. because i saw that guy back in 2004 and that speech he gave at the democratic convention. and it was a brilliant, healing speech. he fashioned himself as abraham lincoln. unfortunately, he has acted more like james buchanan who was the president before the civil war. in his partisan behavior. not just politically partisan, but racially partisan behavior. he had the opportunity to really bring about healing in this country, but he has i'm sorry -- instigated by going to the united nations and dropping ferguson which was in the middle of an investigation -- neil: oh, i remember that. and his comments tonight, niger, they did not have a salutary effect. niger, thank you. if you can happening on there, my friend.
garrett tenny is in the middle of all of this going on in ferguson, and, garrett, it look like things have escalated a bit. what can you tell us? >> reporter: they've escalated quite a bit in a very bad way, neil. here in the last half hour we're hearing from the st. louis county police department that protesters are throwing batteries at police in addition to water bottles and rocks, pieces of concrete in addition to a molotov cocktail that was thrown a short time ago. and this is on top of the gunshots that were fired shortly after this grand jury decision was announced. police have responded with smoke canisters as well as pepper spray. several individuals have been arrested. we know those businesses along, right around the ferguson police department, there are reports that several of those have already had windows busted open, and looters are already going through there at this time. this is exactly what business owners, the locals here as well as police and officials were hoping to awe void following
this decision. there's been a large police response. we are seeing police cars here at the unified command center zipping out to respond to all of these locations the last 20, 30 minutes or so, and we're hearing reports of police in other locations just driving everywhere in large groups, pulling up to just actually the ferguson police department, a group of about 12 police cars, i'm told, just pulled up there to respond to this large crowd of 100-150 protesters that are outside that have been clashing with police since the announcement of this decision came down. just less than an hour ago now. neil: garrett, if you could stay there, for those just tuning in wondering what's going on here, this is the result of a grand jury deciding not to indict the officer in the ferguson shooting case, darren wilson was not indicted on a single count of the murder of michael brown. but that has prompted an eruption of violence. we don't know whether trigger ored by locals or agitators brought in from the outside.
former or police detective rod wheeler on the phone with me right now. this gets to be the toughest part, right, rod? who's the local grown troublemaker or those brought in from the outside, right? >> you're exactly right, neil. i can tell you that the fbi and the local police department there who i spent a considerable amount of time with over the past couple of days, they've done a pretty good job in terms of coming up with a lot of intelligence of groups coming in from the outside. i do want to point out to the viewers because i was just there on that street today we're looking at right now. a lot of those businesses by the ferguson police department, they were not boarded up. they were not boarded up. the businesses that were boarded up were the ones on westlawson street, and that's about a mile and a half away from what we're looking at. so i think that's kind of interesting. because a lot of people didn't believe the rioting would take place right there at the police department. they thought it was going to be back over where it was in august. that's just an interesting point. neil: that's a very interesting point. i'm wondering if this is a new
tack on the protesters or to widing things out. >> with i think the reason we're seeing here -- it was about a group of about 25-50 protesters over the past three days at the police department across the street from it, and i think that's just where people started congregating. what's really interesting is how they're not congregating by canfield drive which is the street that michael brown was killed on. i think that's a very interesting fact. the police will continue to do what we see them doing here. they do have the military there. one other thing i can point out to the viewers, the command center for the police department and the military is only about four or five blocks away from what you're seeing on the screen now. so there's a lot of reinforcements in terms of military personnel, in terms of police personnel and equipment, only about four or five blocks away. but we haven't even really seen the real response from the police yet. i know we see a response on tv, but they have a whole lot more resources at their disposal. neil: now, what is the procedure
under which they're operating? i know you can't give stuff away, but obviously, they don't want to come out with guns blazing or a tough fight here. they're trying to hold back but, obviously, they can ratchet things up and therein potentially ratchet up the protesters. how do they play this? >> well, here's what they do, and here's what most police departments do, we do here in the d.c. area as well, we try to contain the situation within a two to three block radius. you really can't see frit the view you're -- from the view you're looking at right now, but actually there's police officers surrounding that entire area. you can kind of tell by the way the helicopter light flashes, if you can see it flashing on the crowd. the helicopter light circles around the police barrier, so to speak -- neil: well, is that barrier, rod -- i'm sorry, my friend, but is that restricted to those two or three blocks, and would we look for it extending beyond those two or three blocks? >> no, no. don't look beyond those two or three blocks. police are looking at those other areas, don't get me wrong, they're not turning away from
them. but we know the majority of these protesters are within if we can contain them within a two to three block radius, then it's better to do that than to let them spread out. that's the strategy that we use in law enforcement. neil: now, in august this dragged on for days, turned into weeks. what do you envision here? >> well, i don't think this is going to go on for days, nor weeks. i think it's going to go on for maybe about two or three days. again, i was just there today, and i just didn't sense, neil, if you can understand, i just didn't sense the same type of aggressiveness that i sensed when i was there in the middle of the riots in august. i just didn't get that sense. will it happen? it could happen, but i just don't sense that there's that many people involved this go around. neil: what are the things you're going to be looking for overnight? if this escalates, we have more fires, more molotov cocktails, more incidents of violence, for example, in st. louis proper, what does that signal to you? >> the thing that i'm going to be looking for most is two
things. one, i think we're going to see an increase in the amount of arrests. just so that you know, the police in st. louis county and st. louis city, they spent well over 5,000 hours in additional training for those officers for this event. and that training was very substantial. i actually shared some of that information, shared that information with the other officers today. so good training for them. i think we're going to see more of that. but i also think we need to clearly watch other cities. new york, i think we need to keep an eye on atlanta, miami, oakland. because -- and i don't want to specifically point out any particular group, but i do know that intelligence has told us that groups such as the new black panther party has made plans to do things in other cities. and i know that law enforcement is watching those groups as well. even here in the d.c. area, and i know we don't have a lot of time, but even in the d.c. area just so that the viewers know, the police department yesterday was put on mandatory 12-hour shifts because of this. neil: and there are sympathetic protests going on there and in new york and in chicago and in
boston and in pittsburgh -- report that's right. neil: and on and on we go. this is the scene in times square at new york. some crowds are gathering, but more, more downtown new york, right, ralph? coopers square, new york. but again, you're looking at around 42nd street right between seventh and broadway and the crossroads of america. we're keeping an eye on that as is former nypd detective pat brosnan. what do they worry about in new york and other cities, sympathetic protests, similar planned, coordinated attacks, what? >> probably a combination of both, neil. i mean, a couple things that happen. these things take on a viral aspect to them to the extent that social media and oh means -- other means of communication in the 21st century generate this involvement that other individuals who may not have partaken in the other scenarios
all of a sudden jump in. they're kind of a pile-on. the weather, i believe, the weather has been in our favor as well as missouri's favor to the extent that i think it's diminished the involvement. as rod pointed out, it's not as bad as we had anticipated given the, you know, the fact that the probability of a no indictment decision was very high, you know, in light of the eyewitness accounts by the washington post, so forth. i think it just gets viral, it gets exponential as a kind of pile-on memberralty. and then -- mentality. and then, of course, looting, grand larceny, burglary, other larceny and felony crimes are all cloaked under the mantra of some kind of a justifiable rage -- neil: but would it have been very different or any different had a single indictment gone down? this is times square right now, not just around the block from
us where it's getting a little nasty, but would it have been different if even a single indictment had gone down? >> i think that would have appeased the agenda-driven hordes. i don't know if an involuntary manslaughter would have quite, you know, satisfied their demand for justice, their demand for wilson's head, as much as a murder 1 or murder 2, but i think it would have diminished it. no, it absolutely wouldn't have eliminated it, no way. neil: do you think the prosecutor went to the degree it did, raises the grand jury thing in the first place, tries to argue -- i would assume for some sort of an indictment -- and momentum get his way, but goes through the exhaustive process to say, well, i essentially tried. these guys, these 12 individuals were exhausted about it, they interviewed dozens of witnesses, spent hundreds of hours, i respect their conclusion, i
think you should too -- i'm paraphrasing here -- and we should respect their decision as did michael brown's family. is that enough to mitigate things, or is it not enough? i mean, are people who are lighting cars on fire or getting nasty in times square or in chicago, any of these other cities where they're experiencing problems, are they even hearing it? >> i don't think they're hearing it. i think they're completely tone deaf, neil. i think they're agenda driven in some regards, they're driven by criminality. there's some, you know, there's some monetary gain to be had by looting and so 230r9 -- neil: what do you do when a cop gets hit? it looked like this one cop was bloodied -- >> rule of law. neil: how do you handle that? obviously, in response to that that you can have exponential force. how do people respond to something like this? >> they respond under rule of law and also under the continuum of force. we've discussed other shootings
and so fort, you know? if you hit a cop in the face, he punches you back harder. there's nobody coming in behind you. it's not con ed or the water department or d.o.t., the police are the last line of defense. neil: do you see that this goes viral or that it potentially could or cooler heads hopefully prevail? >> i don't know that thanksgiving's a factor, i can't comment intelligently on that, but i think weather will be a mitigating factor. i understand there's a storm rolling in at least on the northeast -- >> neil: thanks for reminding me. >> to get back to your earlier comment, neil, the evidence must have been absolutely overpowering as i long suspected for them to not return an involuntary manslaughter or a manslaughter ii. mcculloch did a fantastic job explaining it in layman's terms and building blocks. fantastic. neil: as are you.
fantastic and great insight. katrina, that was your point, because it was unusual for the prosecutor to go to the point and the degree he did to explain the process even though it wasn't the end result he wanted from that process. >> right. neil: why do you think he did that and spent the time he did? >> well, i think he did it for a couple of reasons, the anticipation of the fallout that we're seeing tonight. i think he did it because he really wanted to drive home that we did this in a very fair way -- neil: well, these people aren't hearing it. >> well, these people probably aren't the people that were really interested in michael brown himself or even darren wilson, for that matter. these people are agitators. there's an opportunity here, as the officer said, monetary gain. there are people that always take advantage of a crisis. but i think he went that far, you know, three different autopsies from three different agencies, 60 witnesses and even read some of the -- all the different aspects from them. he wanted the public to know that they did their job to the t and even beyond that -- neil: you know what was interesting, and you caught it too, because i noticed your
eyebrows went up when he said darren wilson was not the initial aggressor here and not once was michael brown shot in the back. you know, you hear about these dozen shots fired, and not one in the back which flew in the face of every rumor, every report people heard in the beginning. now, people are going to hear that, i guess, to your point and say i don't believe them. >> yes. neil: but if after three autopsies they came to that conclusion again and again and again, it's fairly compelling stuff. >> it's very compelling. and i think that's why they did go to the extreme with whether it's even with the eyewitness testimony. even though eyewitness testimony is always questionable -- neil: it is, isn't it? >> always questionable. neil: he even said, the prosecutor said i don't think people perjured themselves, just like when you see -- >> people see what they see. neil: they see what they see, and they re-examine it and say, well, that isn't what you saw. it happened a lot in this case. what do you make of that? >> well, i think that people's perceptions and their belief systems really do filter out
what they see or don't see for that matter, and they just fill in the gaps because they hear other people talking about it, and they must say, oh, maybe that's what i saw instead of that. and i think that's why the testimonies were changing because other people's versions were filling in the blanks they had in their own version. but i think that's why he said 60 witnesses. that's huge. so, of course -- neil: that's quite a grand jury upside taking. that is -- undertaking. that isn't a passive, kind of a stamp kind of a deal. >> absolutely. i think that's why they went to this extreme, because they didn't want the justice department coming in to say we don't trust your findings. they were very thorough in this case. neil: yeah. the president seemed to inti nate. we'll see, katrina. niger, i'm wondering as we look at the escalating violence in ferguson which we hope in the end is contained, i'm thinking of all those shots as rod wheeler, the former police detective can, pointed out that were not boarded up because they didn't envision the problems being on this side of town
tonight and, of course, they are, and a lot of shops are being hit, and a lot of those shots are being owned by african-american businessmen who might think twice about opening up tomorrow or the day after or at all. what do you make of that? >> and that is, perhaps, the most profound point for ferguson tonight. not for the racial racketeers and the hustlers and the politicians that act like them, but for the people of ferguson, for those individuals, those young black men and women that want opportunity, that is the most profound impact. because after the circus leaves town, after the cameras go away, they are going to be stuck with the community that has less economic opportunity, not more. neil: that doesn't resonate, you know? i didn't want to jump on you, my friend, but you raised a lot of profound points, and katrina was echoing this earlier, this idea, lost opportunity. an ideal opportunity here to unite and rally rather than
divide and burp. divide and burn. >> it is. the critical opportunity that we have. most of the people of ferguson, black and white, are together, and they want the same things for their families. there are legitimate frustrations and concerns that need to be addressed. they're not being addressed by these thugs, load -- hoodlums, anarchists that are doing what they're doing as we can see on our tv screens, but there are legitimate -- neil: by the way, as you're speaking, my friend, i do want to point out what people are looking at. these are some of the stores, liquor stores, a mcdonald's, i'm told, that were not boarded up. they were a couple of blocks away from stores that were boarded up during the last august insurrection. these are ones that decided to stay open to, and they're rueing that decision now, i suppose, but a greater police presence. continue your thought, my friend.
>> no, that's a perfect dovetail to what i was going to say which is, you know, rudy giuliani tried to make this point over the weekend which is that there is a crisis among young black men. i call it a genocide. but it's not a genocide perpetuated by the klan or by the nazis, it's being perpetuated over 93% by other young black men. and we've got to address that particular crisis. other than to say, oh, well, whites kill whites, asians kill asians. well, what community has a crisis of killing? and murders right now? it's not latinos. it's not asian-americans or whites. it's young black men. and when you talk about the value of life, the value of life of young black men goes down dramatically when the perpetrator of that life, the taker of that life happens to also be black. but if it's a white cop or a white person, then all of a sudden it has a media
celebration and an activist racial racketeer celebration. that needs to come to a crashing stop and halt if we're truly going to change these communities in the years and decades to come. neil: well, it's a decision that was as unequivocal as this doesn't do it, i don't know what will. >> well, i think that there's some things changing within the country and within these communities. i think that even in ferguson i had a totally different perception. i was thinking of south central l.a. on the brink of anarchy. i went there with dr. king as part of restore the dream 2014 program, and i was shocked and amazed how many normal folk, black and white -- we had a wonderful prayer vigil. 500 residents, black, white, the whole cross-section of the community. not black panther party that had
their own agenda and see this as an opportunity to get on stage, but real people, real people that have hopes, dreams and want peace within their community -- neil: and there are more of them, more of them -- >> absolutely. neil: niger, thank you, my friend, very, very much. back with katrina pearson who's done yeoman's work with me as a legal mind and just a good studier of what we see tonight. tomorrow. you're seen these incidents before, as have i. does the dust settle, does the, on this thanksgiving week, people just cool down, calm down, or do a lot of these people rioting feel they have nothing to be thagful for? >> i think some of them might, but i do also think it will calm down. the weather is going to be changing and getting worse all over the country, and i think that's going to help a lot. but i do think it's going to calm down. like i said, all the facts are out there. there's really nothing for the agitators to hold on to, there isn't a, quote-unquote, injustice. so i think everybody's out there
doing what they planned to do -- neil: would this have happened if there was even a single, a single -- >> absolutely. neil: one way or the other? >> even if they got a full murder conviction, then they would have said this is the time to celebrate. it's like winning the super bowl. they go out there, they turn over cars, this is the same thing. these were people who were going to act out regardless. i think it ends tonight -- neil: but it's spreading tonight. just around the block from us, young lady, it could be a dicey walk home. it has spread, is that july my so or is it just what happens? >> i think this is just what happens. they know all the cameras are there, this is their opportunity to be seen, to be heard, and this is an issue, like niger was saying, there is an issue in the black community. and a lot of those people are using this opportunity to show that the numbers are there saying something is wrong here. i think this is a cry for help. neil: very well put.
katrina pearson, thank you for your insight this entire evening. we obviously went a lot longer than we planned to, but we did not envision the response we're seeing to a grand jury read that we got tonight. darren wilson, the policeman who killed michael brown, completely exonerated, seen as not the initial aggressor and michael brown himself, though shot a dozen different times, none in the back, foiling what had been an argument that he was a victim, that he was a target and that he was unfairly butchered on the streets of ferguson. a grand jury has ruled otherwise on each and all of the charges that was brought against police officer darren wilson who has issued his own statement hoping for calm today on the same night michael brown's parents have urged the same. the president of the united states taking to the airwaves to urge similar caution but sparing any comments toward darren wilson of whom he said nothing. and ferguson continues to
ignite. we just hope maybe not too much. that'll do it. see you tomorrow. 30% of the unemployed are long term. david: have a great weekend. >> some days are better than others at work. and this is one of those. we get down to the business of play. when cameras roll, i'm always better. golf. bowling. table tennis. this is so fun. we'll meet industry bosses that get paid to play. he actually tests the games to proximate a guy who is pretty much drunk, doesn't know what the heck he is doing. >> didn't quite say it like that. jeff: from the man who saved pinball to a golf exec making easier for someone else. the company responsible for latest innovations in table tennis. what is that? >> ball picker upper. jeff: a
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