neil: we're learning a little more about those planned microsoft layoffs. 11,000 workers, 5% of the workforce throughout the course of the year. keep you posted on that. i'm sure charles payne as well

who takes over. charles: thank you, neil. good afternoon, everyone, i'm charles payne and this is "making money." breaking now the s&p 500 is sort of meandering considering the bombshell report from goldman sachs. i have lance roberts, shah gilani here. here is the question should you ignore this i will press sieve start to 2023 or should you ride the pain train? i will also ask nancy tengler if the oil stocks are just a no-brainer right now. president biden back to name-calling saying that the gop is fiscally demented. at a mlk speech as the debt ceiling limit rapidly approaches. economist joe lavorgna at 2:30 with his take. we have jon and jerry here. you don't want to miss my takeaway losing faith and

avoiding solutions that only aid the global elite. all that and so much more on "making money". ♪. charles: got to tell you it has been a blistering start to 2020 which has staged a rally that left many mouths agape especially among the expert class. experts are wondering if they blinked at the wrong time, those folks who sold coming into the year. most wall street pros are still looking for pressure on the market through the first half of the year. of course you have seen this analogy for the last year or two, 2008, 2009, it has been pretty much spot on. except right now we're starting to change a little bit. we're moving higher as we're supposed to be moving lower. do we want to go with this change? do we stick with this analog rather? here's the thing that has got a lot of people upset, especially the expert class, right? the stocks rallying big time, they keep saying this is the reason you should be cautious. in the last two weeks coinbase up 50%.

you can see some of these other names, almost all of these names on this list are left for dead. so this is discuss another reason the expert clays is saying hey, you want to ignore what is happening here with this rally. of course that takes us to where we are right now. you know it is pretty interesting because this emotional roller coaster that investors go through, we're, i don't think anyone would deny we're at despondency right now. we never hit classic panic. we never hit classic capitulation. it is interesting. we skip that on the roller-coaster, maybe, maybe we don't hit it but some people say we have got to get that to really have, to really, really be where the market is supposed to be. according to goldman sachs, this is worrisome. maybe we hit it a different way, folks. according to goldman retail investors sold 1 1/2 amount of times of stock they bought in investor revolution. everyone got into the market here t was fun. it was exciting. they're saying you sold more

blue chip stocks, even more of your nasdaq 100 stocks. i don't know if that is true. goldman says you did. if that is the case, maybe, just maybe we went through the panic and capitulation phase in a whole different way. bring in ria advisors, their ceo, lance roberts. we had this conversation so many times about classic capitulation. maybe it happened but we didn't see the panic. can we check that box or do you need to see more selling, particularly amongst some of these technology stocks? >> no. i think we might have actually seen it. you know one of the problems we have today, more than anywhere else in history, is this illusion caused by passive indexing. we have record inflows last year into passive indexes which tend to support the market. so we had a lot of selling going on, a lot of negative bias. in fact we're still at some of the most negative bias of investors that we've had in the last 10 years. so we may have actually gotten there. you know, was that october low

the bottom? there is some tending call indicators certainly starting to look that way. charles: i want to bring up something also intriguing. nine times since 1954 the market rallied following a down year. here is the magic combination. santa class rally, check, we got that. first five days of the year rally. check we got that. january we're still out on. with that in mind, so far we're looking pretty good. is it too early for you to say okay, if we get this let's say january is an up, does that mean for the fuel year we'll probably end the year up? i should less the audience know, when this happened the average gain over 27%. >> yeah, look statistically, probabilitywise, everything is pointing in the direction we'll see a positive year this year. you know, but always be careful, right? you know, as investors we have to be careful with statistics and probabilities. when something happened 100% of time, that means there is a rising probability that at some

point it will fail, right? so just, we have a lot of things ahead of us. charles: right. >> we saw the fed hike rates. we still have weak economic outlook. we have a lot of issues economically going on. unemployment is potentially an issue. things are looking a lot better. i think you need to participate with the market but maybe not spend all your money investing in things like coinbase and really risky stocks. you might want to gravitate more towards big blue chip names that pay a nice dividend. you will participate with the markets if something goes wrong we went hurt to much. charles: participate, but ignore the things moving in 50% in a week? i'm just busting your chops. here is one thing i have to ask you about. we talked about this last year, this is i can folks, this is about 15% of the s&p above their 20 day moving average this is only a few weeks ago. look at the number. it rocketed to 87, 88%. this only happened a few times in history. every time it marked a market bottom. we saw these breadth thrusts

fail last year, but at some point this has got to mean something longer term, no? >> absolutely. the one thing we have got different this time, when we had the breadth thrusts previously we were in the middle of the market trying to come to grips valuation and earnings, what happened with the fed. i think we price ad lot of that in. right now we have technical buy signals in place. the market is trying to break from above the downtrend from last year's highs. if we do that, keep this breadth going, right, that will help give the market a leg higher? not talking about market rally back to all-time highs. let's keep that into perspective. there is real shot we get to 42, 4300 in the next rally if earnings come in decently which they should. shot here a little bit of return for the markets earlier this year. i still think we have some problems this summer. i think right now you can cautiously wade in shall we say. charles: lance at this point we'll take summer when it comes.

we'll take now now. thanks a lot, my friend. we'll talk again soon. bring in money map press chief investment strategist shah gilani. we're in earnings season. here is what i really think is interesting, remember for six months coming into this last week the bears said this is what is going to sink the market. ironically on friday, every big name that reported opened lower. every single one got hammered at the first print. mere is the crazy thing, every single one rallied higher. look at this, shah. delta air lines was down seven 1/2, call it 8% right out the gate, rallied up 4 1/2%. we've seen today, you know, the market sort of meandering, when i see this i think there are some underlying buying out there, a lot of buying demand. it feels to me like it puts a bid under this market? >> it does. friday to me was a stunning reversal and that indicates that there is buying at the close on a friday, going into long weekend, that is bullish.

i've been saying for sometime now, at least a few weeks, maybe a month, starting to nibble in here because increasingly the narrative has changed, not 100% but more investors are believing more analysts who are repeatedly saying, yes, maybe the worst is behind us, yes, we're probably have, or could have a soft landing. yes, the fed will eventually pause. they're trying to front run. traders are especially trying to front run that. now the game can we get s&p above 4,000, keep it above the 200-day. get it above the downtrending channel line that marks the bear market. investors and traders can, then the bet is a lot of money come in off the sidelines. we will then have a melt-up. charles: another shing, shah, script flipping kind of thing, safe havens. every one was told to get into them. they held up pretty well. i noticed last week, especially

on friday, names up, four p-e ratios above the five and 10-year average, whether it is staples, utilities, even health care, they're starting to struggle a little bit. do you think we could see -- if we see money coming out of this, these groups, safe havens, into other areas, what does that tell you? >> that is a sign of bullishness. that the safe havens are not as necessary as they were maybe in the summer into the fall and coming towards the end of the year when the market was rather dicey looking. now it seems like it caught a bid. seems like you don't really need the staples if you will. need speculative plays to catch big moves. if you're trying to match a index seems to be moving higher in first part of 2023, you will have to put out some risk there, go to the likes of not coinbase but similar stocks beaten up enough where you get a big move in. charles: you just read my mind. >> they're chasing, a lot of chasing going on. charles: i was going to ask you if you taken the bait on really,

really oversold. >> no. charles: you are an opportunist. what are you looking at right here? >> looking at a lot of oversold stuff and anything that is oversold coming what might be a sea change in terms of investor thinking i'm looking at those kinds of talks. zim integrated. shipping is one of them. it has been beaten down tremendously. i think it's a tremendous bargain down here in the teens. picked up a bunch more of that. that is one of my favorites. liked the energy sector. i've been buying on dips. i think energy is going to rally in 2023. so taking any dip opportunities there to buy. those are the two sectors i like, i do like shipping. if the china story builds up, outward i think we'll see a faster recovery than most people expected. and commodities are going to do better, shipping is going to do better, energy is going to do better. i'm going along with those kind of themes. charles: it really feels like

china, president xi has thrown in the towel on zero covid policy. it simply did not work. shah, always great to start to the week with you. >> thank you. charles: want to talk about what is happening with the market from a technical point of view. s&p 500 punched above the key moving averages last week. i want to find out what the next test will be. stock market mentor.com founder dan fitzpatrick. dan, i'm looking at s&p 500, i'm seeing what we would call reverse head and shoulders. always very bullish formation but there is always a neckline of sorts. i'm not sure where that is. where do you see us really on the s&p breaking out to a point where you've got to be in there? >> yeah. i'll tell you, this is a market that you don't want to, you don't want to ignore. i understand that there has been a lot of pain over 2022, you know. that is part of the reason for that, i think is, most investors are buy only. they kind of get used to a bear

market but then at the same time they're looking for, they don't want to miss the bottom. charles: right. >> and where we are right now is, we've had the bottom in the s&p in october. what the level that i'm looking for is 4100 on the s&p. right now we're at 4,000. if we break through 4100, that really is going to confirm this reversal. right now all these moving averages, the 50-day, 150-did i, 200 are really clustered together pretty tight and that is, that is really a solid foundation where any pullback is going to hit those moving averages and it is going to be really muted, then at the same time, any move higher is going to flush out some of these folks that have been, you know snake bitten in 2022. charles: yeah. >> and push them back into the market. charles: let's talk about a couple areas you like though.

we got the number, 4100. i really like that. i'm intrigued you like the rails, dow jones, u.s. rail index. it is a great looking chart. i see a cup and handle formation. we see some resistance through here, feels like it is off to the races. what is driving this right now? >> what i think, first of all, you know, the transports, the dow 20 has been outperforming the rest of the market but what i'm seeing is that the market is anticipating a drop in rates. it's anticipating a pickup in business. i know that semiconductors are starting to push in what i think is happening is, two things, first of all this is where institutions are going. they're certainly not selling this. the good news is this, rails have not gone up far enough where you're looking at them, saying, it is too late for me to buy. >> right. >> i need, i need to wait for a

pullback. i think what is really driving it is, the sense that economic activity is going to increase. that implicates rails. charles: i have to squeeze one in, work with me, only got 30 seconds this is really homebuilders, right? everyone is hearing the housing market is imploding! dow jones u.s. home construction index, it broke out late last year when all the bad news was coming out, only built up momentum. can this keep going? >> you know i think it can. the bottom line is this on these homebuilders, i don't really care about catching the exact bottom. i care about the middle part of the move. this is the way i think about it, charles, the fed ultimately will start pulling back. that is going to implicate homebuilders. the fed's more like that irritating guy in the prius gets in the fast lane in front of you, you know what? you do not need to go faster than 70. charles: prius drives irritate me no matter what lane they're in. dan appreciate it.

we'll bring you back real soon. president biden dismissing republican as quote fiscally demented. with the reference, real in all the spending. yeah the debt ceiling is coming. we'll see what happens there but bankruptcy? we'll ask joe lavorgna at 2:30. we'll get new options ideas from jon najarian next. get out a pen and bad, folks. he has been on fire. ♪. they're looking for you. who? who's looking?

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and our success stories are real. why not give it a try? charles: all right, folks, markets being held back a lot because of just one company, goldman sachs. they posted a horrendous financial report. not sure what this means with respect to, to goldman or even with the company itself because you know, a lot of people are frustrated with david salomon. many are wondering if his career is over, ceo or d.j. certainly implications for the market. i want to bring in market rebellion cofounder, jon

najarian. what is interesting in early december you gave us a bear put spread on kre. this is early december. this thing worked like a charm. we made, people watching the show made a lot of money on it. the question now do we try to take advantage of what is going on over at goldman sachs right now? do we do anything with weakness or buy it or just hold off? >> i think you hold off, charles. it is not all on david salomon but certainly david is going to be pushed out paved on what we saw and what we heard from their report. so, again i'm not saying it is deserved. kind of like derek carr over with the oakland or now las vegas raiders. charles: right. >> it is not his fault the team is terrible but nonetheless they have to blame somebody. charles: right. >> and they're not going to blame themselves for bad trades this going to blame mr. carr.

i think the same thing is true over here with solomon. charles: we hold off on that right now. i want to get to something you pointed out. the big time betting going on in the china market. fxi, this is january 12th, you pointed this out. a bullish call spread s this something our viewers should, still consider getting involved in? >> yes, sir. i believe so. i'm in that, charles, so in other words my money is where my mouth is on this trade. i think we're going to see the china reopening story lift significantly. a lot of china equities, the fact that today is one day out of many. that some of the equities are getting hit. i still think it has a lot more upside than downside. so if i had to bet on china, i'm a china bull in the short term. >> today you point out the bullish combo trade that caught your eye. tell us about this, 20,000, fed

405 at $6.95. 395 puts at 6.31. this is bullish combo on the s&p, the spydrs. >> yeah, the spydrs look like people want to buy on any dip. i'm not surpised, i'm sure you're not either, charles that people are willing to buy because every time the market gets hit, it seems it jumps right back up. so you might -- i think you're going to be rewarded for a little bit of patience. charles: right. >> in this case and i'm willing to bet on that just as i have in the past. charles: jon, my man, you're breaking up little bit. i saw you this morning in a video had on ski gear. you're chilling out. please tell me you're not at davos. where are you right now? >> no, i'm in austria. it is problem i don't know couple hours away. definitely, there is the brat

universities with cheese ininside with bacon. you don't eat better. charles: looks hike it got to you a little bit. you look a little sleepy. we'll catch the trades, let you get some rest. thanks a lot, jon. >> thank you, charles. >> her biggest no-brainer in this market right now, president biden calling republicans fiscally demented. this on mlk day, where a lot of the stuff you said didn't make sense. hillary vaughn will help us straighten this out next. ♪ lomita feed is 101 years old this year and counting. i'm bill lockwood, current caretaker and owner. when covid hit, we had some challenges

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charles: president biden had quite an mlk, jr. day.

usual cringe worthy moments, idea on law enforcement, forgetting coretta scott king's name. that is top of the list. a bid to take focus off classified documents with that scandal growing larger each day. hillary vaughn is in d.c. with more details. hillary. >> reporter: charles, white house karine jean-pierre moments ago insisting they don't think it is necessary to negotiate with republicans over this debt limit debacle. the president earlier this week making it clear he has a new name for republicans who are worried about this rising debt, calling them demented. president biden: you know they're going to talk about big spending democrats again, guess what? i reduced the deficit last year. these guys are the, fiscally, fiscally demented i think. they don't -- [laughter]. they don't quite get it. >> reporter: republicans say it

is the definition of insanity to continue to enable out of control, irresponsible spending of money that we do not have. >> i think it is a sign of arrogance if you say he wouldn't even discuss it. if you had a child, gave them a credit card, they kept raising it, hit the limit. so you just raised it again, clean increase and again and again, would you just keep doing that or would you change the behavior? we're six months away. why wouldn't we sit down now and change this behavior. charles: >> reporter: thursday the u.s. debt is expected to hit limit what is allowed to, no more borrowing. not just spending adding to the tab but interest paying off because we're spending money we don't have. the latest estimate from the congressional budget office that the u.s. will spend $400 billion this year in interest payments alone. that is $3,000 for he have american household. treasury secretary janet yellen

says, they will be able to move some money around. just because we hit the debt limit on thursday doesn't mean that we are in a crisis immediately but republicans are hoping to use that time between now and june to try to work something out with democrats but it doesn't seem like they're interested. charles? charles: all right, hillary, thank you very much. joining me now former white house chief economist, smb chief economist now joe lavorgna. joe, so the debt ceiling looming again, right? that dark cloud, sword of damocles. it never goes away. janet yellen said it could be disaster. ironic she stated stated this we no more fiscal crises in our lifetime. you're latest on the debt ceiling showdown. >> charles, it is always ongoing. i've been doing a long time. comes up every five or six years. we're going through another iteration. work backward. we'll not have financial crisis off of this. we'll not default on the debt or

technical default where treasury misses an interest payment, that is not going to happen. people will pretend it will be really important. people will worry the in the markets one time the debt ceiling finally causes all of these dislocations. fortunately it won't happen but it doesn't mean we shouldn't prioritize certain fiscal policies. this would be a good opportunity to do so. unfortunately i don't expect any real positive to come out when this thing ultimately gets settled probably sometime in q3 this year. charles: wow. to that point, you heard hillary mention the interest, $400 billion. i want to know how that relates to jay powell? you know, because, you know, a lot of folks are saying, he is talking a good game. no way he can be aggressive as he wants to. that would even hurt the u.s. government's ability to operate. >> it will make the interest expense a rapidly growing expense item, charles, for

certain. those interest expenses already have caused the fed to lose a lot of money which they treat as a tax deferred asset. politically it will be a problem for the fed, charles and jay powell when the unemployment rate goes up as inflation is coming down, can the fed really hold the line on the tough talk and hold the line on what i would argue are pretty high interest rates. charles: right. >> as inflation is moderating. that is when it is going to be tricky. we're not there yet. i think it will come soon. i do expect the labor market to meaningfully weaken. charles: minute to go, joe, hard landing or soft landing? >> hard landing, charles, but it will be a mild recession because i expect the fed to pivot and they will be pivoting because the labor market will be slowing at the same time inflation is coming down. charles: amazing. by the way goldman says if we do have a hard landing s&p 3150, amazing we ping-pong back and forth like this. maybe one day the fed will get out of the way to let the economy operate. maybe it is too late.

maybe we can negative get back there. >> government too, charles. it would be good if the government got out of the way. charles: it would be great. joe, thank you, my friend. happy new year. >> thanks, buddy. charles: i have the pleasure bringing in fox business's newest star, tailor rigs. she will host "the big money show" with jackie deangelis and brian brenberg. welcome to the show. i watched you for years. you have a lot of energy like me. >> the feeling is mutual. i'm been watching you as well. >> three different people with hugely different backgrounds. you talk about the the big money. that is, that is not only ones that can win. the american dream is still out there. how do we break doesn't institutional money, make finance fun, hopefully bring the audience, make them a little bit more knowledgeable about finance, help them take control of their financial independence. charles: one of the things i find for our viewers, it is not just the lingo, rather, some of

it deliberately, you know, talking off their heads to intimidate them. maybe they fork over money to a money manager but the game, right? earnings, consensus, all these things, it is so hard to know when good news is good news and bad news is good news. that is where you really shine. >> we don't have to play that game. i think one big thing we learned during covid with the quote democratizization of finance we could download trading apps on our phones. invest, not trading, in a smart, knowledgeable way. you can feel like you're playing the game, in it to win it. charles: how are you feel about the economy right now? i should tell you on twitter, #recession is starting to trend. >> you had joe lavorgna, smart guy, echo his words, mild recession. that is pretty much what we heard from big banks when they

reported quarterly results. if you are one losing your job that is painful and not good. we're nowhere near the 2008 levels. leverage nowhere near in the housing sector. our own balance sheet, consumer balance sheet, corporate balance sheet, much more cash on hand than we had before. mild recession we have to remember recessions whether we like it or not are a normal part of a business cycle. you need that a little bit for a healthy receipt. charles: do you feel the cycle, economic/business cycle has been perverted by all the free money that goes in, then comes out, the big government spending that goes in and comes out. just overreactions, you know? there is no such thing as a efficient market in my mind. do you feel if that is the case, can we ever get back to what joe and i were talking about? a normalized market where stocks move mostly on the fundamentals or is it too late for that? >> my goodness my ears are burning with the fundamental

analysis. we'll break it down for the viewer. when you think markets, zero interest rates through infinity that is the fed. how long did we keep rates at zero. that inflates the equity market. the big drawdown in the equity market, that is the normal part of the healthy reset when you raise interest rates. that has to happen. valuations are normally reset when rates rise. so i hope we get back to fundamentals because that is the way the markets are supposed to work. i think we're on our way to getting there. charles: either way if we don't we have the right person to get us through, don't we? >> the feeling is mutual. charles: all right, taylor riggs hosting the big money show, starting saturday, monday, january 20 third, 1:00 p.m. coming up 2008 exposed a whole lot of shady trading practices, 2020 and up with 2001 exposed worse things. here is the problem.

nothing is happening. we have a special guest. roger james hamilton how companies fight back against naked shorting. the biggest trade in the market today, nancy tengler on deck. ♪. i work hard, and i want my money to work hard too. so, i use my freedom unlimited card. earning on my favorite soup. aaaaaah. got it. earn big with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours. ♪ if you walmart, you know ♪ that with everyday low prices you can spend a little less, to get a little more, to make life a little better.

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look! what's up my trade dogs? you should be listening to me. you want to be rich like me? you want to trust me on this one. [inaudible] wow! yeah! it's time to take control of your investing education. cut through the noise with best-in-class education resources that match your preferred style of learning. learn your way. not theirs. td ameritrade. where smart investors get smarter℠. ♪. charles: so there is no need to tell anybody that owns goldman sachs or travelers that earnings season can be a really tough thing. while it is true missing consensus spells trouble for individual companies, you know the notion that earnings actually going down from a year ago doesn't automatically me disaster for the overall market. i want to bring in laughter tengler ceo, chief investment officer, nancy tengler. nancy, i got a beautiful chart here. this is the 11 times when the

earnings have dropped 10% year-over-year and here is what is amazing about this, nine times the market rallied higher, even, even when earnings were down 22% year-over-year the market rallied higher. only a couple of times where you saw earnings were down 31%, 40%, then it was too much and stocks moved lower as well. i mean could we be in scenario, we know earnings will be down from last year where the market can still rally? >> yes. charles: see you later. [laughter]. >> i think it is important for your viewers to know that, because, earnings are backward looking, and that is why many of us are focused on the guidance that we get from the management, what you're seeing in this earnings environment is companies stepping ahead of the margins squeeze, laying off employees. we got announcement today microsoft is laying off a number of engineers, thousands of

engineers, actually. that is ironic because technology is one of the most productive industries on revenue per employee basis. i happen to know the number for amazon. 550,000 revenue per employee, versus 172,000 for average company. i think investors need to think about what are the opportunities for this company in the next three to five years. charles: i will circle back to you on that, i have another angle to hit as well. that is one of your underlying investment themes. i want to do something else you always talk about. i'm sure in the chart goes back to 1929, the great depression. market got hit, during the korean war, world war ii, suez canal crisis, cuban missile crisis, oil embargo, dot-com bubble, great financial crisis, covid-19. here's the thing though, it has gone up all that time. i guess the only thing we always talk about, you don't always have the same leadership but

people should not be abandoning the stock market, right? >> no, absolutely right. i talk about this. i'm working on the second edition of my book, investing for women. i'm talking about this in every possible way that i can. in the environment you refer to despondency earlier in the show on the roller coaster chart. that is exactly what happens. then people do the absolute wrong thing at the bottom. so i want to encourage your clients, viewers around the edges to be adding to names like goldman sachs today. that was a terrible report. difference between goldman and morgan stanleys, we own both of them is stark in terms of management but i think they will get it figured out. i think they're on the road to doing that. this is an opportunity for investors to step in at lower prices and hold on for the turnaround. charles: you know -- >> getting paid. charles: we had a disasterous philadelphia fed manufacturing report today. i think that is one of the reasons the s&p is holding up.

within that report, i thought about you first, cap-ex spending, still relatively strong, didn't come down too much. technology spending actually surged. almost everything in the report collapsed. you talk about taking macro data, being able to use it to formulate investment ideas, right? one of the reasons i think you like microsoft? >> absolutely. and if you look at it, just logically, if there is labor shortage problem, we have one, there is a million women still missing from the labors force since prepandemic, then you have got to solve your productivity problems with technology. and so if you just look at the digital economy, it has grown to 10.5% of gdp. and in the robotics angle has grown eight fold from 1993 to 2021. two times faster than overall cap-ex, four times faster than gdp. so i think these companies are giving you, these stock prices are giving once in a generation opportunities to just pick away at them because they are going to solve the problems that we

face as a nation in the coming years. charles: before i let you go, we tease this a lot, so i want to put this chart up. you're saying oil is a no-brainer. in part aggregate dividend yield, folks, 5 1/2%. you know the old saying get paid while you wait. 5 1/2% for the cheapest sector in the market? i agree with you here, nancy. thanks a lot. talk to you again real soon. >> thank you, charles. charles: coming up my takeaway losing faith, avoiding solutions that only aid the global elite. first the war on naked short-selling. how to fight back. listen to this, tell your friends anyone invested in small names that wall street likes to target. we have roger james hamilton. he has some solid ideas after this. ♪

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charles: earlier in the show i point out according to goldman retail investors sold 150% more stock than they bought in the initial couple years of new investor revolution. some of this is because the market got hit. the other part is people are

simply giving up. i think it's a shame, even with all the warts the stock market can change your life. i get it, i too want to see fairness. joining me genesis group ceo, roger james hamilton. i want to point out you you have amazing business track record. currently ceo of again necessary group. your shares trade on new york stock exchange. on january 4th, your firm released initial results of investigation of outside manipulation of your stock. what did you find? >> hi, charles, great to be here. we found there had been manipulation that had been -- sold in our stock. we had evidence of it. company called intel -- to get to the bottom of it. this is crazy, that you can actually have traders that are out there, brokers out there that are issuing shares that don't exist. so we don't know at this point exactly how many of our shares are out there. there is a lot more than we actually issued. if i as ceo of company issue

fake shares, i would be put in jail. somehow the financial markets are allowed to do this right now. >> what does the sec say about this? when you notified them what did they tell you? >> well, two things, the first of all the sec has a pretty standard way of applying for this. we have spoken to a whole group of different ceos including the legal side if you go down that route you're not going to get any answers. we have not seen the sec do any major prosecutions in think of this, people from gamestop still waiting for actions to take place, however we do have on our board the ex-deputy director of the fbi. his name is timothy murphy. he is now looking to get in at the right level of the sec to really try to get something done however we are not expecting the sec to be ones to take action. we're got our own actions we're taking. >> i want to talk about that a whole lot of companies are dealing same issues you're dealing with. you're a solutions oriented person. you laid out 10 strategies for

ceos to fight back. i don't know we have time to go through all 10. talk about the ones most important, that ceos, investors listening should know. >> i'm hoping that just been talking about this there will be some ceo who will what is going on with our stock the way we saw our stock drop down to 40 cents. when we had analysts said it should be worth $11, $19. other ceos are doing sim thing as well. this week a group of ceos getting together, a. these all ceos are affected by this naked short-selling. if you are a ceo, go to that and you can see here we have got a battle plan where there are 10 specific things that you can do that are going to insure that you get these enablinged short sellers off your back. if occupy sec happening next thursday and friday in washington, given permission to retail investors to physically show up at the sec, protests,

peace fullingly protest what they see as serious injustice. when we actually talk on twitter there are thousands of people out there retweeting watching this right now, there is army out there of people who are mad, looking for there to be results. i believe there will be a plenty of ceos and together with their investors get us to the results as well. charles: roger, that would be so beautiful to see that happen. this has gone on for years. this has gone on for decades, decades, decades. business as usual. the biggest, most powerful, richest organizations in the world get to eat up the tiniest folks who can develop the next heart monitor to save lives, cure for cancer. doesn't matter, if your stock trades at a certain level they think they can eat you up, they will. no one says anything about it. i tip my hat to you. these are great. the naked short battle plan. i will post these also. good luck tomorrow with the meeting with the ceos. check back with me, let me know what happens there. maybe we do a follow-up.

good luck to all the viewers going to occupy sec. thanks a lot, roger. >> thank you, charles very much. charles: coming up my takeaway not letting all the fear out there dictate you making the wrong move. we'll be right back. ♪.

charles: so i'm sure you notice a bunch of business and main street surveys have been released ahead of the world

economic forum. be careful about being spooked when you read these things. listen, we already knew sentiment was low. parents do not believe their children are going to have a better financial future than they have. according to pew research, only singapore and israel have a greater percentage of parents who see their children doing better. once your nations have been focused on big government handout, eroding the notion of pulling yourself up by the boot straps, meanwhile, the solutions being put forth certainly at davos include climate change initiatives, collaboration with government, holding false information sources accountable. i mean, that's freedom of speech. it's a problem, really honestly, all of those answers got us into this pickle in the first place. tell your kids them they can have an amazing future, push back against the general narrative because we've heard it all before, and and they deserve that much. at least you should give them hope, because it looks like maybe schools ango