a full half hour with the man who says you go too far proposing government -- [ inaudible ] wait until you hear what he has to say on occupy wall street. one hour from now. ♪ ♪ >> eric: hello, everyone. it's 5:00 on the east coast. this is "the five." i'm eric bolling with andrea tantaros, bob beckel, dana perino and greg gutfeld. a busy news day, so let's get started. first, historic day for libyans, as they the libyan government confirms ousted dictator muammar gaddafi has been killed by rebel soldiers. plus, visa for buying a home in the u.s.? that's right. two senators are pushing that idea. and then and just what the unions needed, more members. we'll tell you why marijuana dealers want to join. "the five" starts right now.
>> eric: to the big news of the day. libyan officials confirm the death of muslim dictator muammar gaddafi and fox learned a predator drone on gaddafi's convoy before he was capture and killed. we have a picture believed to be the dead gaddafi. a warning, it's very graphic. take a look. image captured by fighters moments after his death, streets of tripoli are filled with celebration. but has obama even bothered to ask these questions? what are with left with? who are the guys and which one will throw on a suit and address theu podium? the man on the street or the one who finished him off with .9-millimeter justice? >> bob: i don't know. that was graphic, you're right. the big news out of libya is not that gaddafi is dead. that was expected. >> dana: what?
>> bob: it's big news today but seriously, is anybody going to care next week? no. >> andrea: libyans will. >> bob: can they pull off an election? >> eric: who are we left with? >> bob: how much of the tribal authority is back at work. whether there is western aid coming in? nonstory next week. >> eric: the nobel prize winner used a drone and more than willing to use drones to take care of the problems. but then again, mr. bush, who had the perspective, gitmo and military trials, he catches saddam hussein and let a jury of his peers take care of it. >> bob: true irony. >> greg: you see people disappear. give him credit. i love when the networks say warning this picture is
graphic. not a person on the planet that says, oh, dear, i better turn it off. why do we do that? >> dana: so you have a moment to get the children out of the room. >> greg: gaddafi looks exactly the same dead as he was alive. did you notice that? >> eric: the kids are out of the room, if they're not put them out of the room. we have video of the moments before gaddafi died. >> greg: it is graphic! >> bob: it is. it's very graphic. a bit disturbing. >> andrea: think how gratifying is it to the family of the victims of the pan am crash that he was behind. we know that. >> bob: a football game in san francisco. >> andrea: i will say this. bob brought up good points. we don't know the rebels. we don't know what they want. we don't know what kind of government will come to play. it was the same with egypt. everyone was jumping up and down celebrating, there were warnings, well, the muslim brotherhood can infiltrate and
now we see it happen. with the election they are killing coptic christians. we should be happy that dictator is gone and europe took the lead, they have very little interest in. lead from behind. we have more fatigue. but watch weapons and what happens with their government. >> dana: the middle east today is a different place than it was before 9/11. several people gone. saddam hussein and changes happening. you have people emeratis that were instrumental to help in particular with the military activities in libya. a lot of things have come to play. i do agree that now we saw end of one chapter, a dictator for 42 years. what are the next chapters going forward?
i read an interesting piece and i'm not sure how i feel about it. the question is this okay with us in the future? it's okay for people to rise up against you and topple you as a leader? there are interesting questions. >> bob: libya is different. military reasserted itself in egypt. that's caused protests and more arrests. the iranians splitting in half between the revolutionary guards. you have ahmadinejad that is now on his way out for sure. the situation is unstable. the good news is it's not all centered on israel and palestine. >> greg: the tough job is the guy at the cemetery. how do they spell his name on
the tombstone? >> bob: gaddafi? >> greg: yeah. "q" or "g "g." >> eric: gitmo, you bring in a detainee. >> bob: you're bringing this back to obama? >> eric: of course. you have gitmo and they go through a military trial and found guilty and process. >> dana: they never went through it. >> eric: okay, that is just too harsh. terrible because waterboarding but this is shift justice. drone, baby, drone. .9-millimeters in the street of tripoli and that's okay. >> bob: hussein tried by group of his peers? >> eric: he absolutely was. was he not? >> dana: the thing about hussein and dictators, they no peers. they hold themselves above all others and rule with iron fist. sometimes one said find nelson
mandela of iraq and get it said. he said because mandela is dead. everybody is like did he die? but he meant anyone who would have been a peace-maker or considered a peer had been killed along the way. egypt example is good one. institution trusted the most in egypt was the military. is the military going to allow for democratic rule? the bigger problem underlying all of this is the economic anxiety of people who are 50 to 60% unemployed across the middle east. >> andrea: that is still underlying though dictators were removed. you made a point that obama is a warrior. i give him credit in this instance. if you look at the policies that he pursued that were successes, it was all from george bush. >> greg: he do what we want
him to do we didn't think he would do. he flip-floped it. >> andrea: if they acknowledge it. >> bob: they are doing remarkable job in algeria, al-qaeda the last vestiges are centered there. they picked off a number of people there. if you get back to ira , when you have shiites on the jury and a sunni leader in the battalion, not sure it's a jury of your peers. >> eric: it wasn't swift justice from 32,000 feet. it was a trial. b. then they brought him and hung him. >> dana: to your point, do you have a targeted assassination or whether gaddafi was assassinated or on the battlefield. the legal thing they have to work out. but on your point about the
drones, so many innocent people, bystanders are killed at the same time. >> eric: what would happen if george bush, god forbit you take out three or four terrorists -- >> dana: they were. >> bob: wait, there were -- >> dana: bob, let me make the point in afghanistan, one of the dangerous places to be in the bush administration and now is at a family wedding. you want to get the terroristssh, and one reason the relationship with hamid karzai -- >> greg: every family? >> dana: no, but it's a dangerous place because you have a target of opportunity, this is where they will be. 100 people end up dying. relations were so strained at times between the united states and -- >> bob: wait. you talk about drones killing people. in the iraq war when we invaded iraq, 100,000 civilians were killed by american military, jets and bombs in a war that never should have happened. >> eric: 100,000? >> bob: they brought in what the ridiculous vice
president -- >> dana: democrats -- >> bob: they shouldn't >> eric: like other numbers, i love you, but they tend to be b.s. >> bob: wait, wait, wait. you don't think 100,000 zillians died? >> eric: innocent iraqis tied? >> bob: innovation. >> eric: here is what i think. i said if george bush were using drones the way obama is and there was collateral damage, one civilian, they would have taken him to task and called for a trial. >> dana: it did happen. they did. they don't do it same. >> bob: better off using drone than using the soldiers on the ground. >> greg: they are doing all the work. >> eric: we'll leave it there. up next, we talk about a new bipartisan bill that offers visa in exchange for buying a house over $500,000.
i'm sure there will be a discussion about that. also, don't forget to e-mail us. email@example.com. ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] to the 5:00 a.m. scholar. the two trains and a bus rider. the "i'll sleep when it's done" academic. for 80 years, we've been inspired by you. and we've been honored to walk with you to help you get where you want to be ♪ because your moment is now. let nothing stand in your way. learn more at keller.edu.
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♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> dana: welcome back to "the five." who says d.c. can't get along? senators schumer, democrat, and mike lee a republican, introducing a bill to give foreigners a visa if they buy a home for $500,000 or more in the united states. so, interesting. senator from new york, senator from utah, place where a lot of people have second homes. money to buy a second home. i'm conflicted about this. first i thought buy a second home but then i thought wait. i don't think it helps the housing market. do you? >> eric: it may help but for the wrong reasons. this is where we are, after the fail of the economic policy? doesn't this feel like another
slow drift to illegal amnesty? >> andrea: eric is right. this is selling citizenship. >> eric: selling the ability to stay in america. >> bob: in context there was a bill in 1986 that reagan signed to law that allowed people and foreigners with 20 employees or more to have a permanent vissa it included work permit. >> eric: work permit? >> bob: a work visa. >> dana: terrorists afford $500,000 home and get a visa? >> andrea: talk about favoring the rich. if the first time tax credit that they put in administration haven't bought housing market back from the brink, then this won't do it either. what is disturbing, is you are
right. the foreigners who get a lot of money dump their money in and then they get citizenship. i don't think that anyone should be allowed to until we seal borders. why don't we get the problem under control before we start offering -- >> bob: they vet the people. last year, there was $80 billion invested in real estate by people who were foreigners? >> eric: mostly canadian. >> andrea: where are they buying? new york. >> bob: the biggest place they buy is nevada and florida. because they are depressed markets. >> dana: get greg in here. >> greg: i know you're conflict and something that helps me when i'm conflicted is a stupid simile. >> dana: excellent. ♪ >> greg: not totally for this idea. it's money to the economy, but the way to look at it if you gain half a million to get in the country, it's worth it. it's like going to studio 54 in the heyday. you have to pay cover to get
in. next step however is who you let in and what you did in studio 54 at any club is only the attractive people. so you start with brazil, ukraine, nobody from msnbc. it's perfect. this is a great idea. it helps for demand with housing and gets in hard workers, great jobs. they can afford a $500,000 house, they could do good in the -- >> bob: then they could afford to buy good blow for studio 54. >> eric: you don't have to buy a $500,000 home. you can buy a $250,000 home and use the other $250,000 for a rental property. >> dana: wait a minute. >> eric: how many of your relatives can you hide in a $250,000 home? >> andrea: i thought you would be upset this favors the richest 1%. >> bob: it's no how many houses are less than $250,000 in the depressed market? not many. not many.
>> dana: outside of -- >> eric: i think 250 is probably above the average cost. >> bob: maybe slightly above but sell the houses. if they're going under, why not sell it. >> greg: this is so much better than the community reinvestment act. because they have the money already. how can you be -- >> eric: they're illegal. >> greg: how are they illegal? they have visa. >> andrea: they are buying it. buy citizenship. >> eric: illegal until they buy the house. >> greg: they could get turned down. everybody is illegal by that logic. >> bob: are you against reagan's plan when he allowed people under the '86 law to -- >> dana: i was 12. >> bob: employ 20 people -- >> eric: we didn't have 9.1%. >> bob: i'm asking are you against that part of the law? >> eric: 20 million illegals in the country already. >> bob: hello! >> dana: another point in this, that is we've been talking about this it seems like for 20 years. the mexican trucks entering the united states as part of the north american free trade agreement.
first truck, believe it or not, has taken this long through all the legal back and forth will be crossing the border. bobby seems surprised that eric -- >> bob: i'm not surprised. >> greg: you want the truck. >> bob: don't use for business. he'll lay down for any business that makes a profit. but 100,000 truckers, american truckers will lose their jobs because of this. it's not worth it. they can leave it at the border. american truckers -- >> eric: here is how it plays out in the free market. the unionized truckers say i don't want to pay union dues, so they stop paying the union dues. truckers stay the same. consumers get lower cost product. the only thing that uses in the home thing are the union. >> eric: you can sit here and regur tate jobs, jobs, jobs. >> bob: every show this will cost 100,000 jobs. >> eric: according to whom? >> andrea: as i said before,
if republicans were smart, they would use immigration as issue. union bosses protest this. it's the biggest issue to separate the unions and conservative democrats -- >> eric: you want them to drive -- [over talk ] >> dana: you already do. these would be -- all right. >> greg: don't like trucks, period. i don't care what nationality trucks are. they scare me, because i drive a little car. >> bob: okay, greg. that's good. >> dana: little car for a big guy. >> greg: yes. >> dana: coming up, what newt gingrich says is weakening the republican party. i don't agree with him but we'll see what my co-hosts think. "the five" will be right back. ♪ ♪ if opping for insurance re like shopping foriapers, you might think all these cost about the same... protect about the sam.. but what if you have an accident? allstate accident forgiveness starts the day you sign up. these guys might make you wait a couple of years. we can't wait a couple years.
>> andrea: welcome back. yesterday, "the five" talked about newt gingrich's comments at the debate on tuesday, where he basically scolded all the other candidates for bickering. on hannity last night he made the same point and said it's hurting republicans. >> the goal of this project isn't to have one ego over another and then get beaten by the president because we beat each other up. the level of intensity between perry and romney got to be like seventh graders in a schoolyard. it felt uncomfortable and i thought it hurt the entire republican party. >> andrea: i tend to agree with him. >> dana: they are supposed to bicker. >> andrea: don't you think it got more personal? there were moments i was like ohh. >> dana: i don't think it was that bad. it was the fifth debate in six weeks. they're running on fumes and they got testy. imagine if they did this show? >> bob: this show they have a simile.
one thing that is interesting, romney coasted. as soon as they attack him -- and perry, that was strategic. i don't blame him. romney did not handle it well. romney is going to realize front runner does not run as front runner unscathed. >> andrea: agreed. >> bob: a fast point. the press wants a race. they don't want someone to win it early. they want a race. >> andrea: media seems like they're writing the narrative for mitt romney. >> bob: except they will turn on him. >> andrea: they will turn on anyone going against their precious obama. gingrich is good at these debates but a moment is when they punch at romney and got him on a mandate. >> eric: newt said it hurt the party, like a reagan mentality, shooting inside the tent. however, the g.o.p. would be hurt more if no one challenged romney. that was the first time he was challenged. challenged by newt and
santorum and perry and good to find out if he can handle a challenge. >> andrea: perry is coming out with a tax plan -- plan -- >> greg: mention something about gingrich. she a camel that cannot see his own hump. >> bob: what the hell does that mean? >> greg: a massive blind spot. when he talks about things he comes off like a mom on a field trip. it is sir tated. the metaphors -- >> dana: like a camel -- we need a simile/metaphor lesson. one thing on the debate it's important to know what your president's temperament is. remember cool obama? no drama, obama. then you find out he is angry obama. >> andrea: temperament, herman cain has the best temperament. perry did need to afternoon it
up. i agree with this. i'm for a flat tax, a lot of you are. bob is for a flat tax believe it or not. why would he say i have a plan but not revealed until next week. >> bob: he has steve forbes, talk about a long discussion on a flat tax. it is a smart move. it gets - -- >> eric: so close, though. the point, there is no time to the it in a debate, you are like you have 30 seconds, go. no time. a flat tax, i like the idea of a flat tax. talking to steve forbes, one of the original authors of the fair tax. a consumer tax, 23% across the board on everything. no income tax. >> not so fair.
a fair tax on income. no tax on income. tax consumption. >> andrea: in theory -- drug dealers and hookers pay their fair share. they don't have the lobbyists representing them. >> andrea: look what happened when new york tried the fair tax? the lobbyists influenced the government. taxes on large marshmallows but not small marshmallows. >> eric: the 47% of households that don't pay a penny in income tax, no you have to pay. >> 16% that is flat and you don't have people on poverty level or below paying any taxes. it does away with deductions. >> eric: you can eliminate the i.r.s. with a fair tax. >> andrea: what do you think?
>> eric: revenue neutral. >> dana: i'll go quickly, on sales tax, one thing i wonder about is now spending time in new york city, the state sales tax is so high. what does it end up being? >> andrea: under cain plan, pair of shoes, 17% tax. ouch. >> greg: the only thing i can think of i can't remember the last time we legislated tax reform. it was the late '80s, right? >> bob: i give perry credit for shaking this up. this is the most radical departure of the reform. >> eric: are you on board? >> bob: i'm for perry. i know we'll crush him. >> andrea: all right. i want to savor the moment. savor it in a commercial break you agree with perry. coming up, they want to unionize. i can see steam comes out of eric's ears and smoke coming out of bob's. or maybe his nose. will the labor movement help
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and find an arthritis treatment for you. visit celebrex.com and ask your doctor about celebrex. for a body in motion. i'm chris wallace in washington, a big story today, the death of long-time libyan dictator muammar gaddafi. tonight on "special report" we'll go live to tripoli for more on what happened. there is some question whether he died from injury from a nato airstrike or gunshots on the ground. we'll get a report from the white house on reaction there. secretary of state hillary clinton was in afghanistan and pakistan today. wendell goler talked with gaddafi about -- with clinton, rather, about gaddafi and more and will have his report. mitt romney was in iowa today.
we look at whether romney is going to make a big push to win caucuses there. we check out how some of the other candidates who do it in the auk aye state. on the grapevine, herman cain's comment about what he referred to as insignificant country gets attention in afghanistan. "special report" from washington starts at 6:00 eastern. now back to new york and "the five." ♪ ♪ >> greg: welcome back to "the five." according to the latest gaplop poll, a record 50% of americans think pot should be legal. that is up from 46% from last year. 12% from 1969. a year bob can't remember. i have been around drunk and stoners in my life and i've never been punched by a stoner. i can't say the same for drunks. everything i regret in my life
occurred after four melon balls. potheads are annoyed but they're generally harmless and shouldn't in jail with aryan methheads who are making knives out of substances. some drugs aren't babed because they make you feel like george hamilton. just because i'm fine with legalization doesn't mean i'm fine with pot. it kills your ambition and ruins lives, it doesn't make you kill people. it doesn't make you do anything. it makes you not do anything. pot should be for watching horror movies if your wife. it's working for men and women of college age. figure out your path in life but instead you're cradles a half-eaten bag of funyons lost in marathon on tv. but boo for your friends who might have been something. dana, you're high right now. >> dana: it's sitting next
to you every day. >> greg: second hand. how do you feel of the concept of legalization? >> dana: i'm against it. my gut instinct is i'm against it. i am from wyoming, colorado. denver, colorado, a place i consider home. do you know there are more medical marijuana disintarys in denver than starbucks? >> greg: it's such a huge business they are trying to unionize. the dealers in two states, to legitimatize the industry. they have workers. >> eric: that's great. the pot theorists want to get together with the union. union thugs and mobster and drug dealers. 25 states have decriminalized pot. the federal government says it's illegal.
so obama has a huge dilemma. if you look the other way or go in to start cracking down? my guess is, you know, he says it will get tougher on them. >> andrea: but a lot of people -- that is his base. >> bob: a lot of places you mentioned have the best dope. >> greg: you are an expert. >> bob: i certainly am. >> andrea: something to be proud of. >> greg: don't you feel like medical marijuana is a trojan horse? >> bob: it's a scam. you can't legalize marijuana. voters won't vote for it. they will vote for medical marijuana. all of a sudden you get on the phone and you call a phony doctor who says yeah, you're a sick guy. you need this stuff. the danger is it's widely disseminated for two reasons. state want revenue from the tax sales and people want to buy dope and get stoned.
if you get this to kids it's a get away drug. i deal with this all the time. they start on dope and they go on to heroin. >> dana: think what it would do to snack food industry. i want to make a point about the union. something that concerned me is if they go on strike and there is an emergency and someone needs to get high, what do we do? call them back to work like the air traffic controller? >> bob: i could walk outside in the studio, in the next break and buy you a bag of dope. >> dana: seriously? i wouldn't know who to approach. >> bob: the garage tenants. >> greg: you are like the guy that had all of his fun and don't want anyone else to have fun. >> bob: i didn't have that much fun near the end, by the way. >> andrea: why are they trying to use it to have revenue? the state and locally mismanaged the budget. it's true!
>> andrea: they have blown budget on the union pension and wasteful programs. this is dangerous thing to allow people, to decorrallize it. maybe it easier and more accessible. it don't want the 13-year-old getting in the car in two years -- >> andrea: same way. you can get the revenue but at what cost of the culture and the community? >> greg: bob, you will like this. we will talk about -- >> andrea: can't hear anything you're saying. >> greg: there is a house committee thursday to legalize online gambling. how do you feel about that? >> bob: i'm fine. it goes on all the time. i do it myself. it's a revenue source. every state in the union has bets -- your phone rings in the show. >> bob: i know that. >> greg: from your bookie. >> bob: it's used as a
source of revenue for states. that is why it spread across the country. gress if you're not high you are up all night gambling. >> andrea: rendell brought slot machines to pennsylvania. it doesn't do any good. people blow welfare and social security checks. it's not slot machine that is the answer to the problem. >> eric: there is billions of dollars bet oversees. no tracking it. no taxing it. gamblers want it. safer bet at casino than other side. can i point one thing out in your monologue. melon balls? >> dana: what is that? >> greg: midori -- >> andrea: bright green. >> greg: fantastic! >> andrea: they look like exo cooler.
they're bright green. >> greg: delightful. sitting on a rooftop shirtless. you have can't go wrong. >> bob: i would drink 50,000 of them. melon balls. what a wuss! >> bob: you are the straightest human being i've ever known. god bless you. [ laughter ] nothing alcohol in it -- no. these are melon ball shooters. all right. melon ball. a little thing you take and put in your mouth. >> andrea: wrapped in bacon, they're delicious. you're both so red. >> greg: god and coeds, two of bob's favorite things. we'll talk about both of them next. i'll come by your home when you're asleep and reachange your furniture. "the five" will be right back. ♪ ♪
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♪ ♪ >> bob: wednesday, i was with rosa parks and i've moved up. now i'm george jefferson. welcome back to "the five." this is about the university to require religious groups to allow leaders with different religious beliefs to head up the group. what we didn't talk about is 23 members of congress are now stepping in after writing a letter to the school's chancellor opposing this rule. okay. what do you think? >> dana: this has been asked and answered by the united states supreme court. you don't have to hire someone not of your faith. there are congressional members who have written a letter because they agree -- >> bob: but the difference here, under school rule if you want to become official organization, you are suffer
to the nondiscriminatory cost. anyone can join the group. i tried to join a sorority and they wouldn't let me do it. >> andrea: colleges and universities are the largest discriminatory body of the country. vanderbilt wants to be true so why don't they have an open application process and not determine based on gender and race which every college does? >> bob: you want a student organization to allow them to discriminate against people coming in? >> eric: they can be in the group. they are looking to protect right, not have an outside -- for example, christian group, muslim wants to head it and they say no -- >> bob: do they allow muslims to join it? >> dana: if they want to convert, that's great. >> greg: would david duke be allowed to teach at howard university? no. as a member of the society for little people, i would not want eric bolling to be president of it. it just doesn't seem right. i need someone like dana run
it. >> bob: you would not be invited to join many groups and that is discriminatory and i'd be behind you. >> greg: i'm scared by that. >> bob: college university like any organization are subjective to -- >> greg: it's common sense. >> bob: nondiscriminatory laws in the country. you can't discriminate against people. >> greg: you said earlier as a joke, they wouldn't let you join a sorority. that is common sense. >> bob: no. that is a genitalia issue. >> eric: what is the difference? that is a perfect analogy, though. >> bob: sorry. >> dana: can we have a bracket for broken simile. >> andrea: wuah, wuah. >> bob: what did you say university are the most discriminatory group? >> andrea: they are. look at any application. they discriminate based on these things, race and gender. why don't if they want to have an open admission process, not
be discriminatory, let anyone apply or make faculty not have any -- >> dana: why are we having this conversation? does someone who is a muslim really want to be the head of a christian organization? >> bob: no. >> andrea: the mosque debate. just because they have the right doesn't make it right. think about it. these are christian groups. we said this before, christian groups that are taunted deliberately. >> bob: i got into every college i want to get into. i had 2.001, and that's because i had an atary with the french teacher. i got in to school that way. you got in school because you were a baseball player. >> eric: you had an affair with the french teacher and she -- >> bob: you safeed my life once but you are running out of lives yourself. >> eric: if you want complete nondiscriminatory policies across the board take the "x" number of seats available in the school, top
highest grade. >> bob: touch on another subject quickly. number of loans that crossed the trillion dollar line. what do you think? >> dana: a slow-moving housing crisis. one thing that is interesting for housing is a question of government policy over the years to determine the homeownership that gots the banks to the pub prime loan -- sub prime loan. but it's not that different with colleges and universitie universities. a lot of students now that they can't find jobs, can they declare bankruptcy -- >> greg: 1990, the average tuition was $7600. it's tripled and people in front of wall street should be in front of harvard and princeton and harass the tenureed professors there. >> eric: how do -- >> bob: how do kids go to school without bothering money? >> dana: parents scrimp and save their lives to send them
to school. >> andrea: it's the housing, called the american dream. not the american right. not every student should go to college there is trade schools. not every american doesn't need a home. the biggest hoax in america students need to have a four-year degree and the crazy courses like interact basket weaving. >> bob: eric from a poor family and he otherwise could haven't gotten to school. >> eric: we have to go? >> bob: we got to go. you got that other thing? you got it in the next segmen segment. i need a par of bad every day on this show. that is a good line. when i listen to bolling's obama bashing, good thing there is one right here. we will tell you why you get back in a little bit here on "the five." ♪ ♪
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these -- barf bags. [ laughter ] >> dana: can i have that? i want to say what it says. i am going to take this one serious moment. this is the association -- [ laughter ] he's laughing now! anyway, the reason i like this is it's a creative way to tell consumers about what is happening and how government regulation is affecting their ticket prices. we promise that bob did not do drugs -- >> greg: i never used one of these before. it's usually too late. >> bob: yeah. outside of a bar. >> eric: tell us about the taxes. all about the taxes. >> andrea: get me a serious question to get me to stop laughing. this is an outrage! >> dana: talk about -- >> andrea: this is creative. >>ri