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tv   Your World With Neil Cavuto  FOX News  October 26, 2011 1:00pm-2:00pm PDT

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they have never gotten anything right. ever. never. they predict rain. it is sunny. they predict sun. it is rain. hail falls, ducks fly ... post postponed. >>neil: get the hell out or we are coming in. think this is a scene from athens? try america. now. welcome, everyone, i am neil cavuto and the crackdown is on at two u.s. mayors tell the anti-wall street protesters "enough," and they are democrats, mayors of atlanta, georgia, and oakland, california, ordering the police in and occupiers out because health concerns are over-the-top. and now, from the atlanta city jail where protesters have been forced to replace their tents with a cell. what is going on there?
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>>jonathan: we have two dozen protesters outside the atlanta detention center cheering each time one of their fellow demonstrators is released from the facility where they have been been processed for charges of violating the use of a public park at night. yesterday, atlanta marry vehicled an executive order that had been allowing the demonstrators to stay in the park beyond 11:00 p.m. and the police ordered occupy atlanta protesters to leave the downtown park, some of them did but others stayed locking arms and police arrested 53 demonstrates including state senator ford. the mayor bases the action on public safety concerns saying a protester was walk through the park with an assault rifle but police could note determine if the weapon was loaded. listen. >> i believe over the weekend that the aim of some people who were protesting was to escalate events to a point where they were no longer manageable and
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matched with our city's values. than than the mayor said they inserted wire hangars into sockets to create power sources. protester organizers say they only used heater outside of tenths and they deny allegations of using wire hangars for electricity but you look at the pictures of the park it is surrounded by barricades and police are allowing no one inside, including the media. so all of the protest activity has moved a mile and a half to the south of this park, just outside the pre-trial detention center where over the course of the day, protesters, one by one, have been released from the facility, to cheers of their fellow demonstrators after being processed by the courts. back to you. >>neil: have they given any sign they will try to go back to the park?
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>>jonathan: well, the protesters say this is only the beginning a movement. but, if they are going to continue the demonstrations it appears they will have to take a different venue. the mayor reed made it clear he is not going to reinstated that executive order that was allowing them to protest in the park. >>neil: thank you, be safe. the former f.b.i. guy says the crackdowns are just getting started and you think a little too late. >>guest: in some cases it is too late. to the point where outside people are creating the confrontations with the authorities particularly in oakland and if you take this clip of people watching overseas, they will say, is that the united states or is that greece? we are not too sure. that is not a reason why we should not do things but it is to the point where, perhaps, banging the drums and waving the flags and this is not enough and they feel they need to do other
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thins to get attention to the cause. until million does it make any difference or does this ease the tension that it is not overtly political on the part of the people. they are democrats, by and large, not always safe to lump these protesters into any party, but, by and large they get more support from democrats than they do republican, so, this eases some of the tension of the retribution. >>guest: i think to a certain degree from a political standpoint it may, but, i think from a factual standpoint for americans viewing this and the image you are showing right now, they conjure up a feeling of 1968 democratic convention where, again, that was a democratic incident where an event took place and we do not remember who the candidates were or the issues but we remember there were protesters fighting. one thing i am concerned about as we see the protesting going
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on longer and longer and occupying space for longer per, there is the possibility that there are the outside agitators we have seen people, we look at the world economic forum, and we see each year they cordon off a point and in seattle we had the world trade protests and people were teaching other protesters how to go around police lines and what they would do if there was tear gas thrown so people out there are moving around the different type of movements in trying to move those forward in a more aggressive fashion so my concern is that the longer it goes on the more it is a magnet for those keep of people to find their way into the groups of those people who want to protest peacefully. >>neil: they are ready to up the ante on both sides. the mayors are saying keep this up and we will double up but the protesters including those who are prepared with gas masks, do
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you think it escalates to that level? or does it depend on the location? >>reporter: it depends on the locale but, again, going back to the longer period are allowed to push the law, and, maybe, push the permits they have and extend themselves more than the every day citizens would be able to do, they have a sense of entitlements and when you upset that by moving people out of the parks and, maybe, to a more direct fashion, it could escalate up to this direct confrontation. the other thing that has me concerned because over the years they have monitored and assisted client whose have been faced with special interest groups, if we put these into that same category when they start mentioning individual people by names, which some of the groups have, they have mentioned people who are wealthy and mentioned companies by name, it becomes a bit more concerning that not just those protesters who are doing things in a peaceful fashion but those on the edge,
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each group attracts the fringe elements. what will they do and does it pose a risk to the people named or the companies named ? that is a concern as this continues to go on for a period of time. >>neil: with the names mentioned, and the groups mentioned, they stay out there on the internet regardless. >>neil: and rebound is taking on the beaches of the protesters, the student loans, moving toward forgiving a lost them. even if it means bypassing congress to do it. that is not sitting well with the judge. he is out with a new book, and it is "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong." so, judge, you have a problem with the government stepping in
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playing the role of loan forgiveness. >>judge napolitano: with the government getting involved in education because the constitution doesn't authorize the federal government to do so. but it is involved in education. since the nixon era the federal government has been guaranteeing loans for higher education. so, these are people going to a bank or to the university, getting cash from a private source and when the loan is defaulted, the federal government pays back the lender. then the federal government has the objection, do we go after the borrower? or do we just eat this loan ourselves? that is where the discretion comes in on the part every president since nixon. not midst of obamacare of all places, the national six, the federal management of health care are a couple of pages about student loans. if you want an unsecured student loan, you cannot get that from a bank anymore. you get it from the federal government, the federal government's own cash so the federal government can set the
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rates. the terms of the loan. and the federal government can decide whether to forgive the loan. so, does the president have the power to make the students happy by saying all your loans are forgiven? yes, he does. >>neil: there is the issue of who is stuck with the bill. >>judge napolitano: yes, the taxpayers. >>neil: assuming he does an end run around congress, can that be reversed? do you have to go to the courts? >>judge napolitano: it can only be reversed when he is relayed and then you have the issue, well, i signed a contract with the federal government so that is thought going to be reversed, the loan process is ongoing. there are people out there who have been out of college for 20 years who still have not paid back their loans. they not carried on the debt of the federal government. they are carried as an asset of the federal government. because the federal government is showing so and so owes us $50,000 and i think increasing
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by --. >>neil: but isn't that showing up on his credit report? >>judge napolitano: theoretically. >>neil: a last protesters have been railing against capitalism and railing against the double class society but if the loans forgiven we would return, and i know your views on education loans, we would return to when only the wealthy could get to college so they are precipitating what they are protesting. >>judge napolitano: there is a great deal of hypocrisy among the young people. their problem is not too much capitalism, their rob is too little capitalism because of crony capitalism, the federal government picking winners and losers, they do not have jobs. >>neil: and the trend, though, something wrong with your mortgage, go to the government. have a problem with student loan? go to your government. something wrong with your car? we will buy out the car company. >>shepard: get lost in a corn
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maze at halloween call the government. the government so involved in so many aspects of our lives, so men good people look on it as the safety net of last resort. that is not the government the founders gave us and we are marching to socialism if we look to the government to provide answers and money for all of our problems. >>neil: do you thing the constitution is overrated? yes-or-no? kidding. kidding. do not forget to catch the judge on "freedom want," he is nonstop in your case. if you don't answer your question, he shoots you. on the show. just like that. not tax? fat chance? why this lady says, you know, keep thinking that way, fat chance you will ever, ever, ever, ever get her vote.
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tax like governor rick perry is registering more than herman cain's 9-9-9 plan. rick perry is telling me on fox business this is because it will bring more jobs. you say with the flat tax if you don't like it, you don't have to take it but what does that mean? that there will be rival tax systems? >> well, it will give people a choice. there could be some people that have set their business plan in place with the old tax code and they look at it and they say that is where we need to stay and they can do that. or, somebody can take that paper right there, fill it out, with the deductions we talk about, 20 percent, send it back in and they done. i think there are a lot of americans that are relishing the day they can get rid of all the lawyers and the accountants and have a simple, flat tax code with 20 percent tax rate, $12,500 per individual deduction
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and go forward with it. i think americans are dying to see that type of simplicity in the tax code. plus it is a tax cut for every group that matter where you are in the stratosphere you will be getting a tax cut. >>neil: do you worry if you keep even as an option the old tax code you get the same criticism of herman cain with a sales tax you will pile it on top of the income tax we have now? >>guest: no, not at all. there is not a sales tax. there is not a value-added tax. just a straight 20 percent flat tax on personal and corporate side. and, so, the simplicity is what americans are looking for. and the rest of my plan i talk about a host other things like pulling back the regulations. that is what is killing the jobs in america today. >>neil: and a business owner likes the idea of a simpler tax
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code. >>guest: we have 71,000 pages in our tax system no wonder no one can figure it out. great for lawyers and accountants but not good for small business in any way, shape or firm. >>neil: but isn't your beef get the regulations off my back? >>guest: absolutely. and it is two issues. rules and regulations, now, we cannot figure out how to put a budget together that is how bad it is. and now what you have done we have to choose between hiring someone or becoming compliant. as far as the taxes it costs me so much money to get my companies ready for tax season, to get ready by all the attorneys, all the accountants, because it is so complicated, 71,000 pages is not realistic for any small business to manage let alone medium size business. a flat tax, yes. i love the fact that all republican candidates are now saying, maybe it should be simple or easy for everyone. yes! >>neil: they are not all saying it.
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is rick perry's planning a special favor to you, say, over herman cain or ron paul? >>guest: they are all going in the right direction saying we have a problem. it needs to be fixed. it will be painful when we go to fix it and it will not be fixed overnight, and parts of each one of them i like. there are problems with each of them. >>neil: my problem with rick perry have both. >>guest: you cannot do both. that is business 101, when he said that, a wonderful marketing campaign to appeal to everyone. but from a business you cannot build a business this two directions. that cannot happen. it has to be all or none. >>neil: the president was at a fundraiser in california, and i am surprised you were not there, and he talked about what bugs him in our society. this is the president last knit. >> we have lost our ambition and imagination and our willingness to do the things that built the golden gate bridge.
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>>guest: well, president obama, we lost our ambition and our poet vacation and all those things thanks to your wonderful policies and procedures. it is not that we are not motivated. we are in sludge. you have put sludge around every business here and it is just more easy and more supportive to go somewhere else to do business. that is why we have so much money offshore because why would we put it here? if anyone killed imagination and killed motivation it was our wonderful orator who can do a great speech but kills from the back end. >>neil: the white house argues the pace of new regulations is no different than it was under president bush than under bill clinton and this has been a trend and you are dumping on the white house. >>guest: it don't make good sense. if you are supposed to lead the country out of where we are today, you need to put together a clear plan.
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>>neil: the bridge reference was kind of a wink and a nod to, we need more infrastructure. >>guest: we don't need more infrastructure spending. >>neil: well how do you get work? >>guest: what needs to happen, we do not have manufacturing here. we knew that was a staple. we need to bring it back and empower small business. so we have to get 25,000 the loans, get that back, and not put small banks out of business. >>neil: i just wanted one item. thank you, amilya. using the tea party against the tea party? part of the democrats' plan to win back voters. will voters tire of this and fire back?
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>>neil: you think democrats are in tight primary races using occupy wall street to win votes? they are using the tea party actually. >> i am ticked off about what is going on. the tea party republicans trying to under medicare and rollback the clock on women? it is crazy. you see congress doing nothing. while we struggle. i grew up here. raised my kids here. this place is home for me. i will fight for a jobs plan and an end to wall street hand outs whatever it takes because we got to get this right. i approve this message. will until we will get to the democrat behind that in a moment but first the tea party republicans who find themselves a target in his own district because he is a tea party
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republican. this is getting nasty, congressman. >>guest: well, heck, if it helps then to raise money to go after the tea party movement, more power to them. the mistake they are making they have no clue what this movement is. they don't understand the movement. the movement is millions and millions of americans who are fed up with how big government is getting. i don't thing they want to attack a movement that big. they are not defending occupy wall street and they are certainly not defending this president's policies so i suppose we should look at it as a badge of honor they are going after us. >>neil: we will have that candidate on soon but not ad he does not, you will notice, embrace a lot of the "occupy wall street," themes and does embrace a couple of positions near and dear to you: smaller government, more responsible government, but without going after near and dear democratic issues. and societal issues such as
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medicare and medicaid. can you have it both ways? >>guest: no and maybe that is an acknowledgment they understand they on the wrong side of this debate. i have to tell you, there are not a lot of people in washington, republican or democrat, who are defending what this president is doing. me is out there campaigning, for the last year campaigning and how can democrats defend him and the policies? they are going after the boogie man of the tea party movement without understanding how big it is, but, you are right, there is an acknowledgment that we are on the right side of this debate as to what america needs to restore itself. >>neil: you have called for eric holder's resignation. are you getting ahead of yourself? >>guest: well i have to tell you the more you learn about this, the more you have to ask yourself this: nobody has given
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a rationale, yet, for this "fast and furious," program and it is clear to me and clear to a lot of americans that this was an attack on gun owners. this was an attack on gun dealers. and eric holder is responsible for that. it is out outrageous what transd and he is obfuscating. he needs to be held accountable. >>neil: he asks for an investigation would you hold off on the "resign," comment? >>guest: no, it is clear that the department of justice approved a failed program. a program that i believe is criminal. and, in which two of our border agents were killed. that's a fact. he cannot take that back. someone needs to take responsibility for that program. it is bad enough he won't answer questions.
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it is bad enough there seem to be conflicting reports where he is. but the more you learn about this, it is troubling. this is an attack, i believe "past and furious," was an attack by the obama administration on law-abiding gun owners and dealers, somebody needs to be accountable for that. >>neil: thank you, good to see you congressman. fair and balanced, my next guest says the tea party is taking them on. very go do have you. why focus on the tea party? >>guest: well, i appreciate you having me on. people are ticked off in this country. i'm ticked off. i'm not talking just about the tea party people that are just expressing themselves with free speech. that is a great thing. i'm talking about the obstructionist, the tea party in congress that refuse to come to the table and negotiation and are doing what they can to end social security, to end medicare, to roll back the clock
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on women. >>neil: wait, wait a minute, you did cite tea party republicans, so, one could infer from that you are tag about all tea partyers i guess you are not but when you say "to end social security," i don't recall them saying end it as try to get a handle on controlling the growth. why is that such an a--. >>guest: i think the tea party in congress is trying to private ties it and that in the end will put an end to it. it will not be social security as we know it. people pay into the system their whole lives with the promise this is a guarantee of the benefits later. and you privatize that system and it may not be this. >>neil: i don't know this is a press to privatize it but to get a handle on growth. do you agree you have to get a handle on the growth? >>guest: you have 27 years in order to take care of social security, it is very stable for that period of time. >>neil: you would not touch it and anyone who does is pushing
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grandma off the cliff? >>guest: the income cap and it will be stable like it has been in the past, but you have the extremists in congress that want to just privatize the thing. >>neil: what about, do you think, that is fair, but what do you want to say about extremists who will not touch it, will not address it or put it on the table? are they equally obstructionists? >>guest: i think people are just fed up with congress. to tell you the truth. >>neil: they are fed up with "do or die", fed up with hearing one side to say you are obstructionist. >>guest: some in congress are willing to come to the table and try and find solutions, but you have the tea party element in congress that refuses to come to the table. >>neil: but what you are missing my point. if you are going to say this is one side that is not listening to the or side and you are saying that side is obstructionist because it will not be open to a point of view, what do you argue for those who
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do not want to touch the entitlements and refuse to bring up the entitlements, are they not just as obstructionist? >>guest: but you know what i don't see that is what is going on, i see folks willing to come to the table to talk reasonable solutions to take care of social security and medicare. >>neil: you mention reasonable solutions that were offered and you define them as obstructionist? >>guest: well, i don't see the tea party extremists in congress coming to the table with reasonable solutions. >>neil: they did. i gave you a couple of examples. does that make them obstructionist? >>guest: i don't think those are reasonable solutions when you say we will privatize the promise of social security. >>neil: that not what they are saying no more than saying your side is not open to other issues. is in the eye of the beholder. both sides have to take a chill pill and realize they are
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letting it get out-of-control. >>guest: what will make it work is when you have both sides coming to the table. >>neil: you are right about that. it is not happening. more right after this. [ male announcer ] you never know when,
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about "fight without rule," in a country now without money and increasingly without options. today, lawmakers there are fighting over one of their last options: very deep spending cuts. it break out right before their remain and other e.u. leaders failed to hash out a new european bailout. and now, a member of the e.u. parliament and author of "the road to surfdom," arguing that those in paris have yet to throw a punch. what do you make of what is going on? >>guest: getting close to throwing a punch i tell you. three years ago we could see you did not treat a debt crisis with more debt and if they went down this borrow and bailout road we would end up where we started and that is the point we reached. greece is on the point of a massive default, 50 percent
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write down debt, and the solution is to borrow more money? where does it end? >>neil: the tallians are saying you are asking us to make concessions and get budget cuts in that are disproportionate to what you are asking of others and the focus is on greece, and my son and ancestors are beating the you know what out of each other. >>guest: it does not go down well anywhere when you cut the benefits but we all have the same problem. italy has a public debt of 120 percent of g.m. and it simply cannot afford to carry on with the levels of outstanding liabilities that it has so the solutions for italy and greece and the sons to bring spending down and to live in your means. unfortunately, instead of doing that, european leaders are
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repeating what led to the crisis in the first place. they are talking about raising $1 trillion euros! like anyone has $1 trillion euros lying around. >>neil: i understand, but you go do those who have money and the latest reports we get from europe is the chinese are more than willing to fill the void as they were a couple of months back when the italians were short on cash and a chinese finance minister said, well, with we have cash. so, china is coming into there and maybe the money will buy new and debt. what do you think? >>guest: well that has been the case physical now china has been rescuing a lot the countries and has, indeed, increased their influence in europe. but the world is looking rather different, western powers are in decline. it starts with the money. there is a shift in power to regimes which judge by our liberal and democratic standards are not particularly --.
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>>neil: you were not a fan of europe for this reason and causing tit for tat with sarkozy and britain not being in the euro and going back and forth. how bad is it getting if britain had stayed out and the others stayed in? >>guest: thank heaven we stayed out but having stayed out has not been a proper shield for us. our direct liability in greece which is about to default, is tiny. >>neil: you think that is a given? >>guest: look, the only argument is whether they call it a voluntary default or involuntary defaultful the government can call it what they like those who insure will see it for what it is. if you say you are not paying half of your debt that is a default. but we are exposed not in a private sector but in the public sector, our taxpayers have accepted the total default which
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is bigger now than it was two years ago because we have allowed the banks to shuffle off their debts on to the taxpayer. >>neil: thank you, daniel, very good to see you. hollywood or holly won't? he was slamming the rich and now smoozing with them. it could backfire with the average voters.
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>>neil: you have will. antonio. the president is targeting the rich but still fundraising with ... the rich. reports say the president is holding a secret meeting with hollywood power and players and brokers but will it backfire? will it hit him? on the hypocrisy front? a presidential historian, you say he has to be careful. >>guest: well it sends mixed
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messages. he is schmoozing with the hollywood wealthy types and also, he is invoking class warfare and going after the rip and wanting to tax them in the latest proposal to congress so it could backfire. but mixed message, if nothing else and americans are tired of the class warfare rhetoric. so it could backfire. >>neil: the hollywood crowd they by and large agree on the class warfare although they are quite well-off, right? >>guest: that is true. they are with obama, with his ideology, and they are with him, and he has his support solidly coming from hollywood, but i don't think that is the group. americans in general do not like the class warfare back and forth and the rhetoric and that could become fire, but, really, it is unprecedented campaign for a second term to talk about raising taxes and going out and
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lobbying from the same people money for your pockets. >>neil: the bigger issue of just not quite doing what you are saying or appearing -- ronald reagan was very careful, he came from a great deal of wealth as an actor, and he did have a hollywood crowd he hung out with but, what was the difference there? >>guest: i think the difference was the policy. ronald reagan as an actor realized that 90 percent of his income back in the 1940's was going to taxes and that turned him from an f.d.r. liberal into the conservative that emerged and --. >>neil: so he hung out with a like mined crowd? >>guest: yes, sinatra came his way. it makes a difference. >>neil: and john f. kennedy, where and how was he on this? >>guest: well, his fiscal policy was more conservative
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than president obama and it was a different time. we had a budget surplus. in the early 60's and that led to the kennedy team to realize we can cut taxes at 90 percent and it can come down to 70 percent and it did in 1964. lots of presidents have had celebrity friends and parties with celebrities that is not usual but it is the timing, we are in a campaign, and raising money, and talking about policy and raising taxes on the top 1 percent or top tier of americans. >>neil: richard nixon alienated people when they got wind of the tapes and they hear the coarse language and he could not recover because it was a different image from the guy they did not expect. >>guest: you saw one image on the tape and the other image that was waving from the airplane from air force one and that change of persona hurt him and we felt that with nixon.
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>>neil: on obama no sign the mixed messages or damaging? >>guest: they potentially could i don't think there is a sign they are. but i think that there are, you know, an inconsistent message and unprecedented from past presidential campaigns. >>neil: thank you, jane, great to see you again. do the democrats on the super committee make it super impossible to get a deal? any deal? any time soon? .
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>>neil: the super committee to cut spending going for super sized stimulus spending? a report says a majority of the democrats on the debt-cutting crew looking to hike taxes by more than $1 trillion! to help pay for more stimulus
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spending. i don't think that was what the guidelines were. >>guest: it can't be a serious proposal. their job is to cut spending. to deal with the $14 trillion debt we have the we know what doesn't work. and it is more borrowing and more spending and overregulation and threatening people with increased taxes. that doesn't work. >>neil: so say the six democrats push that and six republicans resist that. and never the two shall meet. we have sequestration, the old automatic cuts. will that happen? >>guest: that is what is planned. i hope they do get back together. come up with solutions. and, really, get the spending under control. the problem is not we are taxed too little but we as a country spend too much and the american people understand that. >>neil: i was in washington, dc, with you, and it was very hot, and you did not sweat and i did but i came up with an idea trying to help you guys if i
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could be your kissinger i would i thought where there was middle ground, get off the idea of closing loopholes, but a faction hike you could technically argue yes, but it stops what you guys are against, conversely, pulling in the growth often titles is not killing entitlements but trying to save those entitlements but i wasn't getting anywhere. has anymore progress been made on either front? >>guest: what you offer makes sense because we need to have tax reform in this country. it is a major discussion in the debates now. >>neil: but is this the package to do it, this debate cutting another $1 trillion? >>guest: i don't that now between now and november 23rd they can do it. we need the spending under control. >>neil: we talked to a couple of colleagues in the house of representatives and said maybe we should stop the sequestration to begin with, the super
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committee, and the medicine could be too pain will, just remove the medicine. >>guest: well, that sends the markets, the international markets the message which is catastrophic. >>neil: then they will get a downgrade. >>guest: we have had one already and that is what we are trying to avoid, trying to give certainty and security to the markets and the nation. you cannot say the largest greatest country not world when you owe this kind of money to other people. today we are borrowing $4 billion. a lost it from china. every day. $2 million a minute. >>neil: incredible. always if to see you, senator. my advice is free. >>guest: no more solyndras and get rid these projects where taxpayer money is being wasted in this way. >>neil: in the meantime he
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and more ways to customise your technology >> neil: finally, if 60 is the new 40, why are steve mills, ibm ceo dreams now history? because steve is 60. that's why. that is the traditional retirement age at big blue, so it needn't matt they're the highly respected senior vice president in charge of highly profitable software division that was soaring. he was 60. move on. and so, ibm did. to someone younger and for all i know someone who will prove as good if not better. now it helped virginia ransom profitable division of her own but i'm sure it didn't hurt that virginia was not 60. she was and is 54. good for her. but with all respect to her, no, virginia, there is not a santa claus.
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not if he is as old as we suspect. and not if he keeps that damn white beard, which makes him look even older than we suspect. now, he might as well hang up his sleigh right now, which really slays me, because what are we saying to those at a certain age and those quickly approaching it? i want you to think about it. i always taught retirement at 65 was a joke. but now, 60? when we're living longer? when national brain drain is draining faster? and we want to put some of our best and brightest out to pasture sooner? my god, get a denture grip. by the way, most folks well beyond 60 don't need denture grip. they need to be defined by who they are. not how many years they live. my gosh, by that measure, think about it. ronald reagan would never have been president. mitt romney, ron paul, rick perry, herman cain, wouldn't and couldn't even be running
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for president. winston churchill never would have made it to prime minister. as a result, maybe europe, itself, never would have made it at all. colonel sanders, my hero, never would have given us kentucky fried chicken. or warren buffett, years of constant political lectures. okay, you got that one on me. but for the most part you get my point on this. you have to be 18 to die for this country. that doesn't mean just because you're 60 you have to be forgotten by this country. i'm sure virginia ramnetti is every bit the dynamic executive the board members say she is at age 54. i just hope they feel the same way come, i don't know, 2017. when she is six years older than 54. more on all of this with deepak chopra who also shares my concern about heaving the old out with the young, or


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