tv Greta Van Susteren FOX News July 19, 2012 10:00pm-11:00pm PDT
mindset of george zimmerman. >> and confluence of events. >> sean: we will be watching you tomorrow on fox and friends and watching you on "the five." that is all the time we have left this evening. thanks for being with us. greta is next to go on the record. and we'll see you tomorrow night. >> greta: tonight, it is absolutely unbelievable. turns out that guy in the bath tub was just the tip of the iceberg. the gsa caught again. you thought it was bad when they wasted tax money on clowns, mind readers and red wine with a warm bath. at least that was for a four day conference in vegas. now, we find out they blew $270,000 in one day on something else. we guarantee you will not be happy with this one. first, has the atf scandal now gotten bigger? watch this video message to atf
worker from their boss, the acting director. what is the message behind it? >> if you make moor choices then if you don't abide by the rules that if you don't respect the chain of command if you don't find the appropriate way to raise your concerns to your leadership there will be consequences because we cannot tolerate, we cannot tolerate an undisciplined organization. >> greta: lawmakers are calling the video message ominous and scary. really meant to chill whistle blowers? darycongressman issa firing ofa letter to find out. chairman issa joins us. what do you think of the video? >> i don't think the viewers can reach any other conclusion except this is a thinly veiled threat telling people don't go to the press, don't go to congress even if the chain of
command isn't working which is really what happened in fast and furious. it wasn't that atf people weren't screaming bloody murder. it is they weren't being listened to by justice or some of their leaders. >> greta: were your whistle blowers atf? >> yes. >> greta: i guess you drought conclusion this video was a statement to other whistle blowers within atf? >> when law enforcement closes ranks even when things are wrong that is exactly what the american people are concerned about. and especially when you have a u.s. attorney who helps cover it up and then an attorney general who ultimately won't turn over the facts related to it, of course, you are worried about it. if not for the whistle blowers senator grassley and our investigation would have never gotten started. whistle blowers were critical to us understanding and ultimately knowing what to ask for and in most cases the most
meaningful information we never got in justice, we got from whistle blowers. >> greta: atf is denying this was an effort to tell whistle blowers they better shut up. the spokesperson said it addressed topics ranging from trust to mission and morale and this one dealt with choices and consequences but was not meant to discourage legally protected activities and was directed to employees who violate the rules and was not directed at those with protected disclosure. >> when i was a young man if my hand was in the cookie jar and my mom wanted to know i was taking a cookie, i didn't say what cookie jar. it was clear, use your chain of command or else. no question at all about it. speaks for itself. >> greta: where did you get this video. in. >> i think one of the things that we are proud of is that people who see wrong doing take advantage of federally protected rights to come to congress. sometimes they go to the press.
we are not always happy when they go to the press but candidly they have got to go some where when their chain of command is failing. if that video hadn't come to our attention we again would have had a closing of the ranks intimidation that would lead to whistle blowers not doing the right thing. and let's remember some of our whistle blowers are discrete. people don't know who they are. some became known. the ones that became known have been the subject of intimidation and bad treatment, no questions about it. >> greta: safe to say that a whistle blower i mean in your view got this tape in the public domain? it was not being distributed by the acting director to everybody else? >> let's understand you can give this kind of information to congress. the statutes are specific. >> greta: this whole tape, though, the acting director mr. b. todd jones didn't say here is a videotape i want you
to see what i'm sending out to the atf. you didn't get it from them? >> we did not get it from them and continue to still be stone walled post contempt and any cooperation even to get an answer from the u.s. attorney here in the district of columbia as to whether or not he will proceed according to the statute on the contempt that was already voted bay bipartisan group of congressman. >> did you get the initial information about fast and furious and the border agent who was murdered with guns as part of fast and furious did you get that from a whistle blower? >> senator grassley got the first whistle blower and we worked with senator grassley and a other whistle blowers. >> greta: in the letter that you and senator grassley have signed to the acting director the man we saw on the video you asked him to respond to the letter by july 25. what do you want from him? >> we would like to see an answer of what he says is in context. we would like to look at all of the video. >> greta: to you have all this particular video? >> we have the full video and
we did not take it out of context. more importantly, we would like to see all of the videos and training material because it does look to us as a thinly veiled threat. and i can reach no other conclusion and the people that helped get it to us could reach no other conclusion. >> greta: i would love to have mr. b. todd jones come on and elus what he meant. >> send him an invitation. >> greta: he always has an open invitation. nice to see you, sir. now, to the government gone wild. remember the taxpayer funded lavish party in vegas? well, listen to this. ♪ that is not a friday night concert. that is another gsa awards ceremony thrown one month after the lavish party that cost
taxpayers almost a million dollars. this is a one day awards ceremony and cost only $270,000. it was held at a suburban washington hotel. there were no clowns, mind readers or losses in the bath tub with unmatching wine glasses. it did feature a violinist and guitarist and $25,000 worth of drum sticks. i have two here. these were are just a gift. and $25,000 of picture frames given to the guests. now, that the gsa has gotten caught with its pants down again it is insisting under the new gsa leadership this event and type of spending is not tolerated but the inspector general and house committee are launching another investigation. congressman jeff dunham joins us. nice to see you, sir. and you brought me the gift of the drum sticks. >> not the paid for by taxpayers. >> greta: what is going on here? >> a blatant abuse of taxpayer dollars. originally when the vegas story came out gsa tried to say this is just region nine or just the
regions within the public building area and how to this is a completely different area of gsa. don't forget gsa is the agency that sets the standard for every other agency and so this is going wide across gsa. we want to find out how deep it goes into other area of the bureaucracy and put a stop to it. >> greta: how do you spend $21,000 on drum sticks how many did they buy? >> 4,000 sets of drum sticks jet what was the purpose? >> the audience was playing along with the drummers that you saw. >> greta: that is almost impossible. unthinkable. i realize that is a small amount of the entire cost. so unbelievably insane to take taxpayer money and do something like that. >> it is a blatant abuse. >> greta: you you say blatant abuse. i say stealing. i think it is just worse than a flagrant abuse.
>> and they came back to me and said do you want us to not have conferences all together? >> absolutely. but if you have a legitimate reason to have a conference you have 14,000 vacant buildings under gsa they could be holding a conference in. hold it in one of the national parks. but to have the different types of vacations all around the nation is unacceptable. >> greta: what were the awards for? >> we are doing an investigation right now. the investigator investigating the ig office is coming back with a full report of everything the they fining andw many other of the vacations and trips that happened. >> greta: speaking of vacant buildings. a new lease the gsa has signed. 1 world trade center in new york. office space. why are they getting the office space? >> they haven't told us who the tenants are. they are breaking the law even by gsa standards or the law in three different areas it says any time they spend more than
$2.6 million any lease larger than that they have to go for a congressional approval. well, they didn't feel like they were going to. >> the approved and went around congress. >> greta: one story i read, senator schumer it appears he was encouraging it. i assume he is trying to get money into showing support for new york and trying to show support for the world trade center. but we don't know who the tenants are, right, just the gsa rented this? >> yes, jet we have done stories here on the record and you mentioned it empty office space. i tonight know who the tenants are in new york but seems maybe we should look at the empty office space that we have and perhaps use that force. >> absolutely. force them to justify it. we have all of these vacant buildings. huge vacant buildings in new york right now yet they will go outside of congress and go around the law to get this lease. and they did the same thing here in washington, d.c. with the sec went out and back dated a document and broke the law again tried to cover it up and we actually pulled their
leasing authority back. now, gsa who said they would never do this again if they had the leasing authority did this again in a year. >> greta: who broke the law? >> the sec was clear that they back dated documents. we had the two different documents. did it over weekend. no competitive bid. >> greta: why don't you refer them to the justice department? why don't we start criminal investigations? if people are back dating documents and committing a fraud? if i do that my name gets referred to justice. >> we did refer one to the justice a couple of people were let go after that. >> greta: let go that is different. let go? i go to the slammer! you you know, let go. in that is the least of the problems. >> it does seem like there is a different standard within gsa and within government all together. >> greta: how do you back data document? i mean unless you are committing a crime. >> i agree. that is why we referred it to
justice. >> greta: and have they done anything except i guess someone loses a job but that is it? >> one of the things that will come up in the hearing a week and a half right now. we will use subpoena pow fer that is what we have to to. we asked for this information and demanded information. passed laws to force them to give us the information and we end up just like chairman issa getting all of the information either from whistle blowers or from doing an ig report. >> greta: i just had to throw in my "favorite sec story ever was the lawyers downloading porn on american taxpayer dime and downloading so much they had to download to external hard drives. i look forward to the investigation and see what you discover about the g testimony a and awards ceremony and also the renting of office space. thanks, sir. >> if the gsa blowing your money on lavish parties hasn't
sent you to the room, remember solyndra? now, a solar company closing its doors at the north las vegas manufacturing plant. the plant opened only 14 months ago and received $6 million in federal tax credits for the plant and a $15.6 million grant. part came under the bush administration and the rest handed out under president obama. during a 2010 visit to nevada, president barack obama talked up the plant. >> these manufacturing tax credits already having an extraordinary impact. a solar panel company, a solar power company received a roughly $6 million tax credit for a new facility they are building in the las vegas air aria. a tax credit they were able to match with roughly $12 million in private capital. that is happening right now. >> greta: well, that was then and then there is now. hubble smith from the las vegas review journal joins us to tell us all about it. good evening, sir.
why is this company after about 14 months closing this particular facility? >> lack of sales. they have a lot of problems. for one thing, the product itself was malfunctioning. they only had one customer. it was a a utility plant in colorado. so they really didn't have a lot of sales. and the big thing is a lot of those panels came back to them for repairs. >> greta: when the loans first started during the bush administration, what was known about this company in terms of whether it was likely to be successful? >> they had some kind of a track record out of california. they had done a couple of solar panels here in las vegas at unlv and for the southern, nevada water authority so they had a little bit of a record of producing commercial use photovoltaic panels.
>> greta: and what was the thing that caused the obama administration to continue to give the advantages to the company. a bright future or gone so sour nobody was willing in private capital to bail them out or what was it? >> i think it was obama's push for renewable energy. the energy initiative itself and subsidizing solar power companies to develop and research solar power. that is the way we are going. i think it was obama that said we need to break off of saudi arabia and our dependence on foreign oil and so i think that was the big push behind it. >> greta: well, a lot of business deals go south and you know as much as we try i'm curious. some are obvious. solyndra seemed obvious when the loans were guaranteed everyone knew they could get a cheaper product in china. probably wasn't a good idea to o try and do it here more expensively. was the writing on the wall or just one of those business deals that people tried and
everyone thought it was going to be a good idea but just went under or were there lots of red flags? >> you mentioned cheap. that certainly depressed the -- you mentioned china. that depressed the pricing on the solar panels themselves. these guys are telling me their panels are 40% efficiency compared to the chinese panels. i think they had a better product and i'm he still hearing that the product itself is quite efficient. and so there were other issue. there were other issues with them and again one of them was they were only -- their sole target was utility companies. is a very limited market and had they good afternoon into residential use and been able to scale the panels down they would have been able to sell tens of thousands of the product. >> greta: to what extent did the -- i know the ceo was killed in a plane crash about a year and a half ago. to what extent is -- was he -- i mean lots of times some of the ceos are really important
to the success of a company. is that -- does that have any impact on it or not on the failure of this company or this branch of the company? >> yes, it had some impact. i don't know ouch. i think they w trouble before he was killed in the plane crash in december in pennsylvania. however, i did have one of the former plant managers there tell me that he was the frontman. his name was brian robertson. he was the one that lined up the investors and the investors got behind him. when went down the investors had second thoughts and they pulled back. the investors pulled back after brian robertson was killed. >> greta: hubble, thank you, sir. >> thank you. >> greta: and straight ahead, you knew this was going to happen. tonight israel is threatening retaliation. the threat to settle the score comes after a terror attack, multiple murders of innocent israeli tourists on a bus is
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>> greta: israel is threatening to retaliate. prime minister benjamin netanyahu pointing his finger directly at iran and hezbollah for its murderous attack on a bus full of innocent israeli tourists. the maly must bombings happened in bull gar bulgaria. newly released footage shows the man thought to be the killer inside before the blast. he had a fake driver's license from the state of michigan. and tonight, prime minister netanyahu warning that israel will respond forcefully against
iranian terrorism. what does that mean? former u.n. ambassador john bolton joins us. good evening, sir. the prime minister said he will respond forcefully but said when the tourists were bombed in thailand and india. other israeli tourist. what does this mean tonight? >> if you going to talk tough you have to follow it up otherwise when you issue strong statements and there is no self-defense that follows the iranians come to the conclusion that they can act essentially with impugnity. this is obviously a very dangerous period for israel with the civil war at syria, refugees reported going across the border into lebanon. and hezbollah well armed with rockets on israel's northern border. so i think if there were ever a time to retaliate and directly against iran this time, this is it. >> greta: i mean look i'm not a war monger and i don't want war and people dying and everything else but what are the israelis
supposed to do? if they are tourists. these are not soldiers against soldiers. these are tourists on a bus leaving the airport headed to their hotel and the most cruel thing happens to them and their families. this isn't the first time. so and they can't get them from the u.n. they are not going to get help from the u.n. >> it is the 18th anniversary of a bombing of a jewish location in buenos aries years ago. time for the max effect. that is why i think israel is perfectly entitled to respond. it is not just a at thi tit fot operation. this is self-defense to dissuade iran not to do this again. >> greta: an op ed talked about the united states sayings oren
the table. >> nobody believes it. >> greta: what does that mean? these things are, you know, we do a lot of -- i don't have the solution but i do know that this is not that we are not getting any progress. >> if you are not going to do anything it is better not to say anything either. then when you do make a threat nobody pays any attention to it. in the case of iran they are not fearful of u.s. or israeli military strikes against their weapons program and think they request can engage in terrorism wordwide with impugnity. it draws the contrast here clearly. if israel waits until iran gets nuclear weapons and iran continues to engage in these kinds of terrorist attacks iran really can do it with impugnity because israel risks nuclear response from iran. >> greta: on the other hand if israel does strike that escalates everything? >> i don't buy that this is a cycle of violence. the iranians and hezbollah have
engaged in an act of pure terrorism. they have killed innocent civilians. the israeli response is a legitimate act of self-defense and, indeed, a legitimate act of self-defense if the use of force is well beyond the terrorist attack because they are entitled to stop the attacks at their source. >> greta: sort of curious, the description of the perp believed to be the bomber dressed in sort of various western or american wear and he is said to have a had a fick michigan license. i wonder to what extent this was an effort to make it look like it was an american. >> could well be that is part of the plot. we obviously don't know everything coming out of the incident in bulgaria and may be some time before we do. as you pointed out this is part of a long string of terrorist attacks. let's not forget our own justice department indicted senior revolutionary guards for plotting to kill the ambassador
here to washington. they are doing all that now and imagine how much worse it gets once they get nuclear weapons? >> syria the u.n. today, we have china and russia vetoing an effort to increase sanctions on syria. >> surprise. >> greta: i know. >> this is the third time they have done it. what is the surprise is that the obama administration says today we are outraged that the russians have done this. outraged? where have they been. this is the third time this has taken place. it was a mistake to believe that the united nations was ever going to have any impact on syria. the russians are committed to assad. he has responded to the asass nation attempt yesterday with massive attacks inside damascus which he has to do from his point of view if he thinks he will stay in power. >> greta: extremely troubling issues and i don't want to see more trouble for israel but i don't know where they are -- >> let's not forget iran is also a major backer of the
assad regime. their hands are in every area of difficulty in the region and near billion by. >> greta: thank you, sir. coming up a new economic warning. what is predicted and what it might mean for you. ha is next. also, do you want to help our wounded heros? we know you do. you can help in a big way and won't cause you a dime but it will be a big help to wounded soldiers. people like options. when you take geico, you can call them anytime you feel like saving money. it don't matter, day or night. use your computer, your smartphone, your tablet, whatever. the point is, you have options. oh, how convenient. hey. crab cakes, what are you looking at? geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance.
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>> greta: everyone is racing the red flags warning us to not go over the fiscal cliff but it might be even worse than we thought. a new report say as if congress does not take action it could cost 3 million american jobs. douglas is president of the organization behind the report, the american action forum and was the congressional budget office director under president george w. bush. nice to see you, sir. >> nice to be here. >> greta: how bleak is this? >> this is a very, very big threat to the u.s. economy. the fiscal cliff itself is a combination of $400 billion in increased taxes, $200 billion in spending cuts. that combination $600 billion is about 4% of gdp. 4% of the national income. since we are only growing at 2% it doesn't take a genius to realize if you drop that kind of hit on it the economy will go into a big recession. >> greta: when do you predict, let's say that the tax cuts are
not extended when did you you predict we are going into the horrible recession although many people think we are still in one. >> the concern is we are growing at 1.5%, 2% anded is taxes going from 15 to 45%. businesses looking at big increases in the classes. middle class is going to see their taxes go up with the alternative minimum tax. as the fall progresses we will see worse and worse economic performance and bear the brunt of the fiscal cliff in advance and i worry about that a lot. >> greta: we talk about it a lot on the show and for the life of me i cannot understand what all of the seriousness of this happening, whether the debt ceiling and the problem with funding the government coming up at the end of september. the issue of extending the bush tax cuts or not. all the healthcare issues, is that congress takes a recess in august. takes a month off and they haven't been able to solve, supercommittee last year failed and rather than stay and go back in and try to fix it they
just quit. i mean it is beyond me. i don't get that congress sees the seriousness of this. >> in fact, the fiscal cliff is really the legacy of congress not making permanent fixes to anything. the supercommittee fails. we extend the tax code year by year. here comes another fiscal cliff. this is about congress finally doing its job. we need permanent reforms to the tax code and permanent reforms to the spending side to the budget actually adds up and we are not even close right now. >> greta: a lot of people didn't like simpson boles but it was a big step forward and addressed a lot of the problem including the tax code. >> inside was what i thought was the right political strategy. this is the only thing that got bipartisan support. cut spending and did tax reform and did the exact things and we kicked it it aside. the president showed no interest in it. one of the things you see
besides all of this bad stuff, the thing everyone claims we care the most about, small businesses and the american entrepreneur, they get hammered by the cliff. the middle class we raise their taxes and cut their spending. makes no sense. >> greta: we have been patching it together for the last couple of years. can we just continue to patch forever? >> we can't. look at the first decade what did we didn't really fix the budget problems. it was predictable. we don't have a lot of room to kick it down casually. big changes have to happen and happen fast. >> greta: doug, thank you. now, to president obama's signature health law and we await its full implementation. we know what the politicians are saying about it. what does it really mean for you? the ceo and president of the cleveland clinic, one of our nation's finest medical centers maybe even the finest.
he joins us. i'm a big fan of your clinic. what does the national healthcare mean for a place like the cleveland clinic? >> we know that we have to change health care. we had a healthcare system designed for the 1950s and now it it is in the 21st century and diseases and treatments have changed and we have to change with it. we know that we have got access. we know that the quality has improved a little bit by the law but we know it is going to drive costs way up and so we have got to implement the things. we to do as far as access it concerned. we can't just provide insurance. we actually have to get people in to see a doctor. we have done a number of things. we call centers that the call is answered in 30 seconds and they are not dropped. we have same day access so if you want to be seen. we saw a million same day access last the year in our emergency rooms people only wait less than 30 minutes to be seen. the access is not just about insurance, it is about actually
getting people seen. >> greta: the cleveland clinic is unique and a fabulous place. what about the rural community thes. should we be worried about those. i know if you get to the cleveland clinic you will get seen by somebody quickly and well and i have seen what you you have done with medical records and all that. what about the rural clinics? >> we cannot have all hospitals be all things to all people and put a transportation system in place that moves people with high critical things from a location to a center a major center. we learned this in vietnam. when i there was we took people from the battlefield to one hospital to the next hospital and back to the states. we have done the same thing in the united states. set a transportation system up to connect the hospitals all over the place jet are we doing that and can we afford that and are we on the right track? >> we can afford it because it is cheap forget patients to the right location to the right
time for the right care. we can't afford to duplicate care. we need center to do it because they do it better and more efficiently. >> greta: are you satisfied that the national healthcare bill that the doctors and actual healthcare providers were consulted and this makes good sense from a practical standpoint so that we are going to get better service rather than worse service? >> i don't think there was a tremendous amount of listening going on during this and there could have been substantially more of that going on. and this is the first step in what is going to be probably five to ten years of continuing evolution of our healthcare system. it is not going to stop now. it is going to continue and we are going to refine it and refine it and refine it. but it is a start. but it is going to drive costs up and we realize as a nation we have got to learn how to bring down costs and a couple ways to do that. we have to have a more efficient delivery system. we have to have hospitals collaborate with hospitals and
doctors collaborate with hospitals and we got to deal with the epidemics of chronic diseases. >> greta: and the politicians have to talk to the doctors and healthcare providers. that would help so that they can identify the problems. doctor, nice to see you, sir. >> nice to be here. >> greta: up next, a congressman who has a plan where you can help seriously wounded soldiers and won't cost you a dime. are you interested? we bet you are. the congressman is here to tell you all about it. that's next. free speech or indecent exposure. will a frustrated traveler be punished for stripping naked at punished for stripping naked at a security [ male announcer ] imagine facing the day with less chronic osteoarthritis pain. imagine living your life with less chronic low back pain. imagine you, with less pain. cymbalta can help. cymbalta is fda-approved to manage chronic musculoskeletal pain. one non-narcotic pill a day, every day, can help reduce this pain. tell your doctor right away if your mood worsens,
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shooting spree. an independent investigation finding the fbi opted not to interview hassan about emails with a known terrorist. it was called rushed and incomplete. the u.s. seeing know alarming spike in whooping cough. this could be the worst yirr of infections in more than five decades. there are more than 18,000 cases reported so far this year. that's more than twice the number seen at this point last year. some experts blame the current vaccine, saying it might not be effective enough. notice back to "on the record" and greta. hi, i'm phil mickelson.
i've been fortunate to win on golf's biggest stages. but when joint pain and stiffness from psoriatic arthritis hit, even the smallest things became difficult. i finally understood what serious joint pain is like. i talked to my rheumatologist and he prescribed enbrel. enbrel can help relieve pain, stiffness, and stop joint damage. because enbrel, etanercept, suppresses your immune system, it may lower your ability to fight infections. serious, sometimes fatal events including infections, tuberculosis, lymphoma, other cancers, and nervous system and blood disorders have occurred. before starting enbrel, your doctor should test you for tuberculosis and discuss whether you've been to a region where certain fungal infections are common. don't start enbrel if you have an infection like the flu. tell your doctor if you're prone to infections, have cuts or sores, have had hepatitis b,
have been treated for heart failure, or if, whilen enbrel, you experice persistent fever, bruising, bleeding, or paleness. [ phil ] get back to the things that matter most. ask your rheumatologist if enbrel is right for you. [ doctor ] enbrel, the number one biolog medicine prescribed by rheumatologists. i'm making my money do more. ♪ i'm consolidating my assets. i'm not paying hidden fees or high commissions. i'm making the most of my money. and seven-dollar trades are just the start. i'm with scottrade. i'm with scottrade. i'm with scottrade. and i'm loving every minute of it. [ rodger riney ] at scottrade, we give you commission-free etfs, no-fee iras and more. come see why more investors are saying... i'm with scottrade.
>> greta: you have seen the top stories but here is the best of the rest. who needs a watch dog we you have a watch bird. check out the bird's amazing talents. [barking] >> greta: it is the bird that is barking. the family does have a dog, but the bird has a louder bark and the dog seems content to let the bird handle the guard too dewties. take a look at the piano guys. ♪ five guys, one peian though. the group recreating the song what makes you beautiful. the musicians are utah natives and their video has now gone
viral. for get gold and silver. the new colors of the olympics are bright red and yellow for spain's olympic team and the spanish athletes are not happy. they are the official olympic uniforms and creating a fashion emergency. the own athletes are making fun of the uniforms. who designed the unusual out fits? a russian company donated the clothes for free so looks like spain got exactly what it paid for. and there you have it, the best of the rest. those are are really bad uniforms. coming up, should we start coming up, should we start
you'll inevitably find yourself on aolate highway in your jeep grand cherokee. and when you do, you'll be grateful for the adaptive cruise control that automatically adjusts your speed when approaching slower traffic. and for the blind spot monitoring that helps remind you that the highway might not be as desolate... ...as you thought.
i swam here. by what's getting done. measure commitment the twenty billion doars bp committed has helped fund economic and environmental recovery. long-term, bp's made a five hundred million dollar commitment to support scientists studying the environment. and the gulf is open for business - the beaches are beautiful, the seafood is delicious. last year, many areas even reported record tourism seasons. the progress continues...
but that doesn't mean our job is done. we're still committed to seeing this through. >> greta: time for last call, blame canada. they did, the u.s., what did they do? why is it good news for us? >> how about this. was the first time ever the average canadian is now richer than the average american. no. no. and that is od
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