tv Geraldo at Large FOX News April 27, 2013 10:00pm-11:01pm PDT
icks it up. i don't leave the shop anymore. [ male announcer ] get a 4 week trial plus $100 in extras including postage and a digital scale. go to stamps.com/tv and never go to the post office again. i'm angry. leavitt that. ♪ john: who cares? a slightly different code means you have been struck. 13,000. john: government mess. >> obamacare is working. >> this is a simple, strong, good thing. john: and then there is free-market. >> my cell phone, my e-mail address. >> the long-term players in the medical business need to be pushed to a new way of looking at things. john: well will be the new way? government? free-market? and what happens when the conflict? >> thereof the criminal. >> are you still there? john: i hope so. any hint to treat my dog. will that be legal? free-market medicine.
that is our show tonight. ♪ >> and now john stossel. john: parts of our health care delivery system do need fixing. a worker still locked to their jobs because they get their health insurance from their job. no one knows what anything costs, even doctors don't know. as a result, everything costs more. obamacare does not even address those problems. it is supposed to solve all kinds of other problems. >> you have turned, mr. president, the right of every american to have access to decent health care into reality for the first time in american history. john: yippee. obamacare does promise to cover the uninsured, and somehow to lower-cost. maybe it well. it's early yet. i'm skeptical, and obamacare is already creating new problems. let's talk to a doctor about that, orthopedic surgeon john
barrasso. he's a u.s. senator also. so what is the giants decca paper next you? >> this is the red tape tower, john. it's over 7 feet tall, and these are just the regulations that have come out so far because of the obama health care law. there are over 20,000 pages. you and i thought that the health care law which was over 2,000 pages was too long, but remember so many times it said the secretary of health and human services will write the rules and regulations. this is just the first part, doctors and nurses and hospitals and patients and insurance companies all have to comply with under the president's health care law. john: that is the first part. more to come. what about the goal, the uninsured. neil: in short, 41, 50, 20, whenever it is, get their insurance. >> well, the president actually continued to use the word
coverage instead of using the word care in the debate because just because you have a medicaid card, which is the way the president seems to want to solve this, does not mean you can actually get care. what people wanted in health care reform was the care that they need from the doctor they choose the lower costs. but the president has failed in terms of trying to bring the cost down. remember, he said by the end of his fiist term families would see their insurance premiums drop by about $20,500 per family per year. no one has seen that, and, in fact, if you go to a town hall meeting in as people how many think they're paying more for health care, all of the hands go up and that you estimate you think that the quality and availability of care will be better. nobody thinks that. even kathleen sibila yes, finally admitted, the secretary of health and human services, the health care law there would be winners as well as losers. many more people now believe there are going to be losers of the president's health care law.
john: and the costs are already going up. associated press reports claims costs are up 32%. and never quite understood how you could cover more people and have a cost less. >> and the president has actually compounded the problem under the government mandate that you have to buy government approved insurance, which is not necessarily the answer is a you think works for you and your family in terms of what you want or year can afford. you have to bite a very expensive level of coverage because it has to cover so many things, many of the things that are not necessarily things that are right for you or your family john: i see on the list you have every policy which must cover preventive care, mammograms, colostomies without any deductible. breastfeeding support, supply commit counseling. everybody has to pay for that community of what it. >> everyone has to pay for government mandated insurance, which has a whole long list of things that they have to cover.
of course, the rates are going to go up if you have to buy a lot of things that you don't want. john: all right. what would you do about the poor? without government what they suffer? >> we need to make short -- wanted to focus on getting the rights of insurance down so that people could get the care they need from a doctor they choose a lower-cost. i don't think it helps anyone with a cost of care in the cost of insurance continues to go up under the president's health care law. john: the other problem is that you are exempted you run a business and have fewer than 50 employees. i hear businesses are saying, not going to expand. i have 49 workers. that's it. >> well, the federal reserve is actually saying that one of a big drag on the economy in this country to mothers and the people and not expanding or businesses are not expanding, people are not being hired is because of the uncertainty as well as the mandates in health care law. part of it is the number of 50
employees or fewer, so they're not hiring more people into those businesses. the other is in terms of full-time or part-time employees. presenile that -- now that one of the largest movie theater chains in the country is now saying, for all of their folks that are paid by the hour, they're going to be part-time workers only, which is anything less than 30 hours because businesses are not mandated to cover part-time workers, they are mandated to cover the full time workers. so you see, in businesses, we have talked to some where they say, we have an opening. instead of hiring one full-time person were going to hire to part-time workers instead because of the health care law. the health care law is dragging down our economy making it harder for people to find full-time work. john: thank you, senator john barrasso. all these laws have unintended consequences. >> thank you, john. john: let us look at that big 7-foot pilot in.
there it is. and the secretary shall continue to write new rules, it says in the bill. they will grow. okay. now let's debate. one of the people that agrees with us. pediatrician steve auerbach says that is wrong in the free market does not really work for madison , so we need more government control. steve, you say obamacare does not go far enough to protect people. >> sure. what we need is health care for all americans, healthcare access for all americans. the way to achieve that, step number one would be true universal health-insurance through a single payer health care system. john: canada, britain. >> all the western industrialized countries, the capitalist democratic countries, not just all thus, japan, thailand, germany, folks have access to go choose the doctors that want to go to colleges the hostels and the clinics that want to go to, under our system
will we propose a single pair universal health care h.r. 76. john: the group pushing -- >> the health program. john: a moral duty? >> yes. we believe, and that the many americans believe, maybe even most believe that health care is a human right. is one of those things that you live in america, you're an american. you should have an all-american health care system and insurance. everybody would have insurance automatically. no more turning on and off. john: this sounds awfully good to people. >> it sounds good. can that -- canada as a universal health care system and people waiting to did three years from primary care doctor. no, you know, the problem is in canada, for example, you have to weigh six to nine months for kasten. there's no place i can't catch you can scan in an hour in america. we just caught one of the former medical executives from canada's began cross the border on texas air dollars to come to the mayo clinic.
and why is it? because it sounds good that they have access to all this care and everything, but socialized system to not produce the goods and services that you need to actually have quality medical care. let me ask you. you have heard of the soviet union. it did not work out. >> for talking germany, taiwan, and canada. these anecdotes that are put out by some organizations simply don't hold up when we look at the statistics. in fact, there is not a net flow of those crossing the border. the united states. in fact, americans want to get there drugs from the canada side because they're so much less-expensive. john: that is because they freeloads off of our relatively free market system. >> you're correct in one thing. drug companies, for example, the same multinational drug companies, the same product from the same factories that are so low over the world are less expensive in every other of the developed capitalist democracies in the world.
half the price in canada, a quarter the price in new zealand. and this whole business, you know, if you actually go to canada, canadian support for system. they know what the american system. john: support socialized medicine. >> well, i can really speak to the polls, but i can tell you that it is not just anecdotes. when you have, you know, people that are in charge of the cats fans, people that our physicians in canada saying, look, we cannot get our patience the studies -- john: so we do about the poor and uninsured? >> well we did not have government of their people were not trying in the streets. the problem with the poor is everything is priced at everybody's range. i have trouble affording health insurance, and it is because government regulations, regulations are killing us, giving more expensive, would house was out of business spirit of those are closing right now because they cannot afford the cost of the regulation and the canada for the penalties of not being in compliance with the
regulation. so the answer for the poor is we need to get the cost down. i was a doctor on the mexican border for 20 years. to care for everybody. people coming across the border their legal, illegal. let me tell you, before government got involved, the fruit pickers, but stock pickers had come across the border paid cash for their health care and afford it. their wages or enough to afford every day of care. now is not. the first answer is to get the cost down by deregulating things because the regulations. john: you say people were dying. >> we agree on part of the diagnosis. we agree that the cost, the unit cost per visit, per cats can, protest, preparation is to my. john: it's too bad. >> but the costs are much higher in the united states that there are other countries. all these other countries that have the universal health insurance, the system has lower-cost, lower overhead, free market works for many things.
supply and demand works for many things. it does not work for of care. health care economics actually is different. john: why not? >> reel list occupation centered health care. patients get control cost. free-market control cost and patience shoes cost and value. >> when you get sick you're not going around checking the prices . >> you don't need to. john: s second. you know which is a good mechanic. every bond says only health care special. every field is special and different and the market works. >> it sounds nice. it is not have health care works. what is funny here is to you know, focus in on the pine this guy dreamer the key we should have universal health care and
that that is the moral and right thing to do and can be done. it turns out it is also how the health care economics for scandal health care system works. where we know this from, among other places, recently taiwan, a capitalist country went from private insurance. it realized it was hurting their people and it was bad for their business and they went to universal singer -- single payer a few years ago. john: it took the soviet union 70 years to break down. >> they're not talking communist you may want to think about that . john: is the same thing. >> know it isn't. john: dr. lee hieb, you get the last word. >> look at the cancer death rate in europe verses america. we do much better, and outcomes are much better. >> much worse. >> no. >> is a matter of comparison. john: thank you. it felt we are out of time. coming up, big government gets in the way of meeting answers to questions about my dog.
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his time treating people like you are filling out forms? today doctors complain it's been much too much of that time just doing paperwork, not healing people, just handling insurance. that is a terrible waste and is about to get much worse as congressman from ted poe says. >> would is going to occur now, the federal government has imposed new regulations which means new codes for doctors to fill out when a patient comes to see them. right now there are about 13,000 codes. john: that is the -- 13,000. >> defining exactly what happened to the patient and why they are there. john: they can be reimbursed. >> reimbursed by medicare and medicaid. john: why so many? >> well, the federal government thinks the need to be more because they're going to be no 140,000 of these codes for
doctors to fill out, and there very specific. 140,000, from 13 to 140,000. john: already or will tiny fine print your. in none of these codes help make the patient better or healthier. they're very expensive. average -- so a sole practitioner doctor, it would cost the doctor $80,000 to implement the new federal code procedure. if you have a bigger practice, let's say five to ten doctors, aid is about $250,000 for the doctor to implement the federal government codes so that when patients come and the doctor checks, can check the -- cannot check written by a dog. after check written by a dalmatian, doberman, pitbull, to walk. you have to be very specific. if you mess up, if you make a
mistake for you do it on purpose then you're in violation of federal law. you won't get reimbursed. you can be fined. so that is what the doctors have to look for to. john: and already under the existing codes he have a code for if you're bitten by doc, a slightly different companies have been struck by a duck. who cares? >> two pears. the debt does not care, neither should the patient or the doctor. you want to treat the injury. that is the biggest concern. john: code for our fall at an art gallery. we ask health and human services why so many, and they did not get back to us. >> not surprising. john: from what i read, they say this will help them plan for the future, you ship information to another doctor. he knows if you walk into a pole or if you tire people walker into which might make a difference in how it treats you.
>> maybe, maybe not. the federal government needs to put all this email@example.com to just keep records at this great expense commendably they do. john: it is unbelievable. the old book again. the new one will be five or almost ten times as big. they're not just a bit. it must have our reason for doing this. it and wanted to build empires, do they? we have to understand that when regulators go work every day and meet around and drink their lattes, they decided they should regulate today. why not regulate the medical industry little more and make doctors and hospitals fill out these very specific co said don't treat a patient, that give us information about the patient. that is what they do. regulators regulate. doesn't the law allows them to do. john: doctors are just weeks the following these rules, right?
>> this, they are. you have to obey if you want to get paid. if you want to get reimbursed for it paid or not be in violation of federal law, jen and expanding a practice of hiring a nurse or associates or someone else on the medical staff, you hire someone to keep statistics for you so the concern as into the federal government. the federal government even shows online we can take courses in they will have to implement the new codes. john: give us some other examples. nine different codes for being injured by turkey. >> that is correct. whether you're ready to attack your the turkey wrensen to you, you are packed by turkey or bitten by turkey. there's a difference between being pac-10 didn't. nine coats for turkey's. they have about five codes for basketball. you hit by a basketball, a second offender, a third offender being hit by a basketball, or do you have -- i don't know what the medical
service, a condition where you are always being hit by a basketball. so doctors have to figure this out. but the number and, the ten digit number and check that this is, that number to make sure that they have -- john: the codes are even longer. w6161 x eight. they don't memorize this stuff. >> they have a code book. it will you well appear that one. they have to look it up in the code book. you look under turkey or what you run into, basketball. john: so we do have them do? you are king, king of all congress. >> i think what the regulators and regulations need to make some sense. what is the purpose? was a goal? of course doctors need to be accurate in their diagnosis, what did they need to go through this much detail to get information to the federal government? add all think they do.
john: is to be clear, this is not part of obamacare. this was passed under bush. the rules are being increased under obamacare, but this is why we -- patients also have to fill out more forms on we go to the doctor. >> that is correct. this is not a new thing. code ten as the new one. we have had nine revisions to may expansions of this initial lot. this is that tent expansion, a tenth of book. maybe it has gone a little too far in treating the american sick patient by the doctor filling out the form. john: the bureaucrats always want more. so thank you, congressman, for bringing this to my attention. coming ever, doctors should do not hire the cost of health care beyond government code. the result is cheaper and happier patients and happier doctors, too. that's next. ♪ tired, achy feet draining your energy?
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bureaucratic insurance companies dominate american health care, there are still a couple of tiny areas where they're free-market rules because the patient pays directly. a special correspondent visited a cosmetic dermatologist and elie siegmeister urgent. >> we have to provide excellent quality service to be competitive because our patients who are self paint in a free-market don't want to wait an hour. >> of the benefits for 70 interinsurance companies. >> enormous amount support the required before and after. we don't have whole departments dedicated to insurance companies >> says he competes against the other lay six surgeons genies to have the best equipment.
>> the patients are quite savvy, so if it is not the advanced second laser they're going to leave. it is the internet search away. >> technology is new. when i graduated from residency we had one lazar, one fellow. it wasn't even approved. this is just in the last 15 years we have all these products. >> this is a cosmetic dermatologist and must have the latest equipment to attract and maintain customers. >> i happen to have 14 different lasers. i bought them all. new resurfacing and tightening lasers for. >> and to keep patients both of these doctors are very accessible. >> to you give yourself one number to patients? >> my cell phone, e-mail, and i try to be accessible at all times. >> we have office our saturdays. we operated to 7:00 p.m. we have a doctor available 247. we have to be great to be competitive. john: it sounds nice. most of you, i bet, don't have such good care or little make
themselves available that many hours by car as the last timeiv. many people go around doing that? john: this is lisa kaj surgery, cosmetic, elected stuff, mostly for what your people. this does not take care of the big stuff. >> this is elected stuff the works and it will find a way to pay for it. nafta tell you. this free-market system, this model, which it will apply to other areas of medicine because the doctors have to be invested in their customers, and their customers show their appreciation by going back continuously. john: are surgery is not elected. up in the market work? >> you find the best parts surgeon. look for customers use. he looked at someone's academic history. john: have you pay for? >> well, i mean, you have insurance. you're supposed to have insurance for catastrophes like cars surgery. that is what insurance was designed for. it was not designed to pay for 80 percent of every single minor medical thing the you stumble
upon. it is relief for those life-saving things. in fact my asked because i spent a year without health insurance because i could not get it. the system is not perfect. trust me. and i did not have insurance i had to go to my doctors and say, all right. will you charge me cents an ounce of the system, and we work together. she said -- john: the doctor give your discount. >> the doctor said her father who was a physician taught her, people who can pay for it will pay in full. people who'd been on the pale of it will pay a little bit. some people can't pay. you help them out. she said she would have negotiated a writ with the outside of the insurance. john: and this little area free-market medicine, what happens to the price is interesting. the quality of life six surgery keeps improving, and prices have come down 25%. >> and that technology keeps improving because customers demand it. when you have that sort of influence from what people really want is going to make the service better. cosmetic services have only gone up by 23 percent inflation by
59 percent, medical services have gone up by 108 percent when compared with one another. john: free-market works wonders. thank you, kennedy. so, the market will take care of elective procedures likely sick i surgery, but what about important stuff, or surgery, can we bring free-market benefits back to that? yes, we can. when we return i will show you an oklahoma surgery center where that has happened. prices are much lower. ♪ ♪
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how well they treat their patients. john: go to colombia and get pampered. >> to the airport, we will ticket to the hotel where i will come back and a mobile phone ce we take care the make up part we can pamper you. john: go to china. >> shanghai is now standing destination for affordable high-quality health care services. >> timesaver jennifer my operation was the best decision i could have made. john: this is called medical tourism, and in many places you can get medical treatment for much less than the cost of america. americans go. last year won a million left the country to a cheaper treatment. but what did they have to leave the country? and refined something similar in america? yes, we can't, says dr. keith smith because he founded a surgery center in oklahoma that charges much less. how? >> we own our facility as physicians, and so we, by virtue of that arrangement, have cut
out the most inefficient and greedy profit sicker from the equation, and that is a not-for-profit hospital, to be honest. john: for the most part your customers coming patients pay themselves or are insured by company that selfish yours. makes for a different relationship. >> yes. we put our prices online. first patients -- oppose them on line in the first places the showed up interestingly with canadians. the patients that come to us now , our fastest growing part of the business or employees from the employers pay for their care directly and operating expenses. john: and their reason tv recently posted a video clip about your surgery center. let's watch that. >> about to undergo a simple procedure, carpal tunnel syndrome relief. >> marriage? >> a little bit. i think i'm more nervous of being put to sleep. >> what makes this unusual is
the total price $200,750 is posted on line. >> we decided we would have price honesty. john: why don't we have that in health care? >> because there are a lot of people that benefit from dishonesty in pricing. we put our prices on line with the hope that we would attract more patients and more business, but also hoping to start a price war, real the inflationary price for that could bring prices to a level that people would reevaluate their need for insurance altogether and certainly revaluate the role of government and healthcare. john: and the price differences are enormous. let's play another clip from that a recent video. >> the surgeon was dr. jason the loss of as the procedure of the surgery center of oklahoma with the total price by thousand $8,805. the bill comes to more than $33,000. dr. jason regularly performs procedures about the surgery center and baptist medical
center which is the epitome of a tradition hospital. the surgery center is so much more efficient that it can perform twice as many surgery's in a single day. >> we have precious to do that because the amount that we get reimbursed for the same cases in the hospital is such a fraction that we are forced to be efficient. john: and the big local hospital there. the surgeons, they work for you and for the hospital. >> said no work for me. they're independent physicians. john: but they do surgery. >> in both places. john: 5,000 versus 30,000. >> yes. insurance companies, of them drive them to larger facilities are was more expensive. that was one thing that drove us to parses online, to expose that problem. john: the result is that some people come to you, paid out of their own pocket and still come out ahead. >> yes. people that have high deductible plans, health savings accounts, like us said before, people that are part of the self funded
plans, they have the sticker shock, so they're shopping. there archer consumers in the market. john: insurance seems free. i am on medicare. the door even ask me what things cost. she is to pay $6,000 others to come out ahead? >> is patient did because her employer pay for all thing. otherwise the hospital would charge them six, eight, ten times that. so the employee did not have any of a pocket. john: so happy it was cheaper. forget the deductible. now, one of the reasons there's less competition is in many states there is -- in most cases there is this law called the,. >> said to begin of need. john: which means that if you're going to build boss will you have to prove to the bureaucrats that is needed. >> not just hospitals, surgery centers, mri units. it is old-fashioned protectionism. old-fashioned crony capitalism. john: one result of your posting your prices is that the
hospital, too, has started coming down in price. >> i gate between five and seven e-mails every week from patients that said, we were going to come to your facility from florida, but our local hospital surrendered to your pricing. so we are saving people money all over the country, and there not even during the surgery's many times. john: just by saying we are here. you're growing. forty-seven surgeons. and you may soon have more. >> well, i think we will. we are expanding our facility. you will have to more operating rooms. you'll be allowed to do a lot more surgery and we're doing now , and i think the way things are going that is going to be needed. john: thank you, dr. keith smith. next, the battle between government and the free-market. how will this affect me and my dog? ♪ whistling ♪ what's up everybody how ya doing today? ♪
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>> is 69 year-old texas lyses veterinarian with a ph.d. in my. he has been on the internet for ten years helping pet owners across the countries and around the world. some don't have access to veterinarians. john: that was a video from the institute for justice, and i am glad i learned about ron. i am going to go on this computer message questions via e-mail and get some answers. but wait. i can't. he is answering questions anymore. well, why not? let's ask him. he joins us the escape. that is why that phone, from texas. his volunteer lawyer from the institute for justice, jeff rose, is in the studio. so, why did you stop giving online a vice? >> i had to, john. i got a letter almost exactly a year ago that when i was doing was criminal. please stop immediately. so i did. john: a letter from home? >> from the state of texas.
john: let's go to your volunteer lawyer with the institute for justice. they defend people like ron. so, what is this about? >> this is about the fact that a veterinarian should be able to give advice and this should not en the first member right to free speech and the government's power to regulate occupations. john: everybody should give advice, but what what did they say he is violating? >> texas says that a veterinarian cannot give advice unless he has examined the animal in person at least once college for ron is impossible because you archery the internet, and the animals he helps us get our all over the world. john: and you do this because you used to have an active veterinary practice, but now you have some back problems. so you wanted to do it by telephone or internet. >> yes, john. it seemed like an expert to fedex periphery to continue doing the work of love. i cannot do it physically, but there's nothing to keep me from the keyboard.
john: so for ten years you e-mail people, answer their questions before you get this letter. >> yes. john: any complaints? >> not to my knowledge. john: in the complex? >> no, not at all. there is not even an allegation by the texas state for the young danny animals. john: 38 states have this law. a dog could be in the parking lot, but you don't even have to touch the dog, but it has to be there. >> it has to be an in person examination. was the point? well, let's look at it. in 2005 texas adopted this law, and it adopted it verbatim from the american veterinary medical association which in 2003 decided, oh, there is some crisis in people giving an information and advice about pets. well, what is the crisis? the internet may possible to give permission cheaper, better, faster, and from anybody anywhere in the world. as a crisis for veterinarians, not a crisis for pet owners. they passed a law and made it illegal.
john: you agree? they're trying to put you out of business. >> i believe so, john. john: i guess they have put you out of business. how did you make money? >> i never made much money. do this for love. eleven social security. i have a very minimal needs. john: but you charge some people a flat fee to have a lot of the no contact with the? >> i do. some people like charged. mostly i don't. john: 50 bucks? >> yes. john: i will spend the 50 bucks. taluca here, he eats much in the park. does that mean anything? he has released a skin disease. >> well, the mud is a different issue. we can do with that separately, with the kidney is a more important thing. john: he is on a special diet for that. that's all i'm willing to do. >> well, people send me they're pet blood work. i look over it. i look over x-rays and the try to use the experience of 50 years to adjust that to know
what their options might be. i don't your animals of the internet, but i try to tell them what i would do if it were my dog. john: why would you do if your dog ate my? >> i would be sure and that it was cleaned mud. john: it's central park. i have no control over that. running around, fleeced. he eats, i call them. he is not come in. he likes the much more than meet. >> i don't think that's going to hurt him. keep him on a monthly wireman harbor but it did and he will be just fine. john: you want to make a point. >> the exercise of free speech is dangerously criminal. as his lawyer i feel like telling a stop. at the institute for justice we're about defending free speech and that is what we will do all the way to the supreme court that is what it takes. john: of the american government began direct health care. at the same time falling money to me and my dad.
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imposed wage and price controls. the first company said, great. stability. we don't have to worry about price competition and workers asking for raises, but then they realize that they have less flexibility and could not attract better workers by offering them more pay. so companies got around the rules as companies usually do. instead of raises employers give benefits like of insurance. government distorted the market further by giving employer-based health insurance better tax treatment than coverage you might buy yourself. and one of sidebar to the story, my father at the time was a poor immigrant who supported himself selling tells to sears roebuck. sears was frustrated because they could not raise their prices but the government said if they added value to a product then they could. so dad came up with the idea of tallow's with your name on them and sears could sell those for more so we got a name towels and i got this house that i drug banned
because of government price controls. unfortunately america got employer based health insurance not dead is done today when americans change job all the time. employer based health insurance killed the health care market now obamacare and medicare may kill the rest. maybe we will be like canada where people wait for years for treatment although i should say all of canadian health care is not long lines. easy access to cutting edge life saving technologies. >> laparoscopy orthoscopic procedures to cartilage abnormalities'. >> available all the time 24 hours, seven-- per week. >> if i see a patient that has torn a ligament -- legged man in any we could have been scheduled within a week.
>> you have to bark or meow. want a ct scan? that clinic could get a dog in the next day. for people the waiting list is one month. >> many clients will come with there pet and as they are leaving the next time i get sick guy want to come here. to hear that? the market works for you and even for humans people to find ways to escape government control and in canada patients and doctors begin to see that of problems than private alternatives the merged. the first independent clinic opened in 1993 now one company offers 1,000 private , for-profit clinics. when competition is allowed the free market will win and consumers wind. that is our show. i am john stossel. see you next week.