and put them in e-mail form and i will try to answer them. always remember the spin stops right here because we are definitely looking out for you. >> tonight, the president goes face to face one-on-owith one o biggest foes while debate rages in d.c. we'll show you chilling video of syrian rebels you have to see to believe. now, to d.c. where battle lines are beginning to be drawn whether or not to attack the assad regime. while congress will not consider a formal resolution until next week. white house aides are alreadyrt have the votes to pass the measure, particularly in the house of representatives. but if it fails the state department is now suggesting the president may go it alone. take a look.
>> obviously, the president has the authority to act without the cooperation of congress but the president and the secretary strongly agreed that when the administration and the people's representative stand together, that that strengthens our case and makes our case even stronger internationally. >> while the administration threatens to act unilaterally, president obama's counter point in moscow is u ushering a bold warning of his own. russian president vladimir putin stated he intends to supply syria with a missile shield if the u.s. carries out an attack without the support of the u.n. that is not the only controversial statement putin has made in the past 24 hours. he's also gone on records calling secretary of state john kerry a liar. he made those comments about america's top diplomat on wednesday, accusing kerry of lying to the u.s. congress. so essentially, if you're still unsure whether or not the president has fulfilled his promise to quote restore
america's standing in the world, the answer is no. florida congressman, ronde santos and arizona congressman is with us. first, to the issue, the president, first he said he had the authority, still said he had the authority but went to congress. now that it looks like the house may vote against him, the state department says s he may act alone. does he have the authority to do it? >> not in this instance. americans aren't in jeopardy or like in libya. the acts unilaterally all the time. i think it was because he wanted political cover and the reality is the americans don't want the intervention because they recognize the people fighting assad are also hostile to american interests so the outcome of this civil war would
be an anti-american regime so the calls in my office are 95-1 against getting involved in syria right now. >> that's true. the calls coming in on the d.c. switchboard are 95-1? >> in my office, it's been overwhelming. i did a town hall meeting earlier this week. i had 60 people there. it was 59-1 saying, do not get involved in syria. that's an issue. you've got to have some legitimacy behind your decision. in a representative form of government you have that many people who are opposed to this, there's something wrong about taking us to war when the people just do not want to do it. >> especially the way the president has defined and telegraphed he's going to do it, no boots on the ground, not open ended and days not weeks and no regime change. one has to ask, what's the point of all this. congressman kosar, let's go to the issue of vladimir putin, what he was referring to was kerry saying the opposition has
increasingly become more defined by its moderation. many of the experts i talked to about that know this region well say that is not true, that the al qaeda linked terrorists are more likely to seize power if assad is gone. >> we've seen that all over, sean. they tend to be more organized and better trained and the leaders within these groups. over and over again this administration has been wrong one time in egypt and now again here. they don't ever tell us the right story. >> let's talk about, there are some moderates there. we do have the free syrian army. haven't their numbers dwindled? haven't they take an lot of hits in this conflict? >> absolutely. that's why we get back to the numbers. representative mccaul questioned senator kerry in regards to that. he was astonished because he heard the numbers were more than 50-50 with al qaeda involved with the opposition rebels.
>> has the president, congressman desantos, made the case for intervention here? >> i don't think so, because there's not a clearly defined objective. we want to punish assad for using poisoned gas and don't want to punish him enough to help the rebel forces and not after regime change. they're kind of trying to thread this needle. at the end of the day you will either do a strike that is a pinprick and not make a difference or you really will do a heavy strike at which point there's a fact that will help some of these islamists and al qaeda fighters who are on the other side. i don't see how, coming up on the anniversary of accept 11th, both with the benghazi deaths and 2001, that we would actually be intervening in a military conflict helping sunni islam
miss and al qaeda fighters. >> what do you think of the president's statement, i didn't draw a red line. i have the date and time a year ago he said, if you use chemical weapons he's crossing a red line. now it's yours and the world's red line. who said it? >> he actually said it. this administration blames everybody for every problem that goes on. sean, this is an atrocity we see here. you said it. i'll make an analogy i'm a health care professional. getting involved in syria is like taking care of a fever when you have to take care of the abscess. when you take care of the abscess, the abscess in the middle east is iran. they're the ones developing weapons of mass destruction and terrorism. this is absurdity. >> let's say the president goes ahead and does what he says he's going to do, which is limited in nature, no boots on the ground. days, not weeks, no regime change. let's say the syrians and the iranian, they follow through on
their promise to retaliate against israel. is the congress prepared to back israel considering we're putting them in that predicament? >> i would certainly back israel. i think paul mentioned iran as really being the core strategic threat for both us and israel. we should be focusing on deterring iran and their nuclear weapons. you raise the issue you say it's limited, no boots on the ground. the problem is you don't know what's going to happen until you start engaging. it very well may be it requires an escalation depending how assad and iran responds. it's irresponsible to guarantee american people american boots won't be on the ground because we don't know what will happen with the exigentsies of war. >> it may very well be we help al qaeda assisted islamists come to power. is that a possible consequence, congressman kosar?
>> absolutely. you start looking at the state department releasing a memo later today the military actually said it would take 75,000 military folks on the ground to secure chemical weapons. that's far from what we're hearing right now. there's no trust in this administration. they lied to us in egypt and benghazi and fast and furious. why should we trust them now? >> let's talk about the vote. as of now, there's a number of analysis about this. we have 199 lawmakers decisively ruling out support and saying they're unlikely to back it. about 49 members of the house said they will likely vote in favor of the resolution. i guess congressman desantis, we start with you, do you think as this gets debated and discussed, any chance this passes in the house? >> i think it's very unlikely, part of it is the nature of the opposition we would be helping. people do not want to see is
slam isl islamic sprupremacists and fighters get an upper hand in there. either assad stays, which is bad and rebels take over which would be a muslim brotherhood type of government, a failed state, terror launched from there. none of those options are good. given where the public is, i think most members are going to say, this is probably not a wise move and not in our national interests. >> we will get into more detail. i agree with both of your assessments, if we really want to send a message, those that want a modern day holocausts, the iranians that have threatened to wipe israel off the map, if we want to make a difference, they have to take out their nuclear sites otherwise, this pinprick is a waste of time. thank you. we'll watch the vote. >> thank you. coming up next, new questions raised about exactly who he the rebels in syria
really are. we have video on this brutal assassination of individuals taken just seconds before rebels literally shot these syrian soldiers. we'll show you the video and explain it. a little shocking. first, give us feedback on the show at hannity.com. option number one. disgraced mayor congressman turn ing mayoral hopeful anthony weiner having a conversation with a resident. >> that's why we're having elections. you're not going to judge me. you're not going to judge me. you know who nascar is about excitement. but tracking all the action and hearing everything from our marketing partners, the media and millions of fans on social media can be a challenge. that's why we partnered with hp to build the new nascar
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you know, i'll bet she's in a better place now. i'm sure she is. [ ethereal music plays ] [ motorcycle revving ] getting you back on a brand-new bike. now, that's progressive. welcome back to hannity, a story on the front page of the "new york times" embodies what i've been saying for days. how do we know exactly who the syrian rebels are. a newspaper got its hands on a disturbing video reading a documenta documentary smuggled out of syria and rebel grew disgusted into the killings offers a dark insight how many rebels have adopted some of the ruthless brutal tactics as the regime we're trying to overthrow. we want to warn you it is very
people standing over soldiers and executing them. we can't affirm their connections but strongly against executions. we reached out to officials and are seeking more information at this time. >> joining us now with reaction, fox news political analyst juan williams and former florida congressman, allen west. great to have you here. i've been explaining this to people wondering what's going on in the ground. especially 30 months ago there was a more secular more moderate syrian forces like the pre-syrian army. their forces have dwindled and there's been a flooding in the zone by al qaeda linked terrorists. >> you're right. what has happened you had the free syrian army mainly defectives from the syrian army and syrian regime. they're led right now by colonel riyadh. they have not gotten the support
that was necessary. there was a window of opportunity to really shift the balance if you want to call it that in this civil war. what has happened you have turkey come in, saudi arabia, qatar and muslim brotherhood and they backed what is called the supreme military council. that is much more islamist and have groups like al qaeda in iraq renamed itself the islamic state of iraq. and you have all these other splinter groups under the supreme military council led by general mi, sr-- misra. >> you talk about you will upgrade the opposition, which opposition? you have to be very careful of that. >> two points, juan, i've been making you have to be very aware of. number one, the threat, i think is clear present danger credible. that is that syria and iran will in fact retaliate against israel and the second one is we result
matly could help al qaeda linked rebels in their battle against assad. either scenario is not good for us or them. >> that's exactly right. that's why i have opposed the intervention until this weekend when i switched sides and i got the picture. it's very clear this is a proxy war with iran. that the iranians not only supporting assad but supporting some of the very elements you know, hezbollah and others anti-israel and supporting the islamic front stretching out now from areas of iraq, barn province all the way across to syria, try to establish some kind of islamic republic. >> a lot of the instability in the middle east all has been a proxy war. it all goes back to iran.
my view threats to wipe israel off the map, their ideology, they're the modern day nazis. they want a modern day holocaust. if you agree with me they are the proxy here, wouldn't it make sense that we really want to have an impact rather than lob a few cruise missiles in to syria which i don't think would be very effective based on days, not weeks, no boots on the ground? why don't we do what we should do and that's take out iran's nuclear sites? >> that's a provocative act against somebody who has not attacked us or allies or national interests. >> they're fighting a proxy war by your own words. >> now, you're talking. that's where the front is in this effort. if we fail to respond in terms of the use of these biological weapons we are sending a signal to iran, you know what, you can do what you want with biological weapons and advance that with
nuclear weapons. i think we have to stop them right now. >> let me go to colonel west. if people are outraged. nearly 100,000 killed without chemical weapons now 1400. it could have potentially, if you took the sick twisted ideology of iran and married it to a nuclear weapon i have zero doubt they'd use it. that seems to me to be the bigger issue we really need to focus on. >> that's the whole point. the strategic vision is what we need to have. the mutual ly sure destruction theory does not apply to them. >> 72 virgins. >> absolutely. that's what they're looking for. when you look at what's happening with libya no one considered the unintended consequences there. now we have radical islamists all over that country, we have shifted the balance there and islamists train ed by the brotherhood to go to syria and fight and we have to be careful about tipping that balance as well. if this is a proxy war,
understand, before there was al qaeda there was hezbollah who killed 238 marines in beirut, they're supported by iran. iran is really the nerve center. sometimes you have to go after the head. if you want to do the right thing strategically you maybe want to focus against iran so you don't give them the initiativ initiative. >> isn't this a pinprick? based on what the administration is saying, day, not weeks, no regime clanhange, those are the words. that sounds like, i drew a red line and i have to back it up. >> chemical weapons can be fired from artillery 2s, mortar 2s, platforms. those can be easily hidden and moved. a cruise missile will not do anything there. you're not really degrading the capability. i could take a chemical weapons munition and turn it into an ied and bury it into the ground. when we're talking about
degrading his capability, what are we really looking at? he can still come back with capability. who's to say the rebel forces won't blow up the chemical munitions stockpile. you can't blow it up, you really can't. >> that's a great point but the overall structure inside syria, you can attack him in such a way he feels it. even his air force if they take a couple hits, their ability to control the skies over syria is less and rebels have a better chance, from the administration's point of view -- >> nobody knows. >> i agree with you on that point, sean. there is a bigger interest at stake and we can't afford to look like punkses on the sideline. >> then take out iran's nukes. >> you're looking at world war
iii options. >> i'm looking at preventing mass death in our lifetime. >> we will probably start a world war iii if we go in. >> with a cruise missile. >> absolutely. >> if we will do it, do it right. all the symbolic pinprick stuff is silly to me. coming up next on hannity. >> i didn't set a red line. the world set a red line. >> oh, really, mr. president? when we return, our friends from "the five" are here to remind president obama who actually said the red line about syria just over a year ago. also tonight, select the video of the day. give us your comments. the king of late night. the number one host that nbc fired once and about to fire again, jay leno. take a look. >> president obama is asking congress to support a military strike in syria. if they approve it it will be the f ♪ [ male announcer ] may your lights always be green.
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that would change my equation. >> a red line. we all remember our commander in chief making those remarks during a press conference last august. just one year later the president is now claiming he never drew a red line regarding syria's use of chemical weapons. what's worse, he said this in front of a full array of reporters and video cameras and it was all caught on tape. >> i didn't set a red line. the world set a red line. the world set a red line when governments representing 98% of the world's population said the use of chemical weapons are abhorrent and passed a treaty forbidding their use, even when countries are engaged in war. congress set a red line of when it ratified that treaty. >> classic obama, never take responsibility. take the blame on to everyone and everyone. here with reaction and much more with the five co-hosts. did you hear him draw a red
line? >> yeah. i think what he was saying and not as artfully as he should, there is a treaty that we are signatory to, which syria is not. >> that's what he said the second time. when he drew a red line a year ago he drew the red line. he wasn't talking about congress or the world, he drew that red line. >> i understand what you're saying and i understand what he's saying. it was inartfully done, yes. >> remember when he drew that red line, mitt romney was rising in the polls. he was dipping on foreign policy. he felt he needed to flex his muscles and do so. also at the time. nit tanya hue was drawing rid lines. i'm good at words not deeds, i want my own red line. i will use a red line. they used chemical weapons before a couple weeks ago and he did nothing on this. this is a situation of his own making. >> we don't know he used chemical weapons before? >> yes, we do.
>> where is the evidence of it? >> it's all over the newspaper. the president acknowledged it. >> there was never any conclusive evidence not that there is now. >> how do you get over 100,000 dead people. it didn't just happen a couple weeks ago. this has been happening for a while. by the way, it isn't just the assad regime. it is al qaeda. we know for a fact al nunsra used wmds and now russian detailed hundreds of pages that al qaeda did it, the rebels did it. >> you want to take putin's intelligence and use that. he's been allied with this thug a long time. there are 1200 groups over there in the resistance. the people where these missiles were sent with chemical weapons was on top of the free syrian army, secular, pro united states and by the way we should have
been in helping earlier. >> 30 months ago. their numbers are now dwindling and decimated in the process and the more likely successor is the al qaeda linked islamist radicalists. >> the people who said they did it to themselves is crazy. it defies imagination anybody would drop a nuclear chemical weapon on themselves >> of course. they can get 72 virgins. if they can get the united states to come in and fight their war, why wouldn't they. the vacuum was created in egypt -- >> tell me the benefit. the president said it's not open ended, no boots on the ground, days not weeks, no regime change even though that's flipped and flopped and flailed. what good is this going to do? >> have you taken a look at pictures of 406 dead children? what it is humanitarian response? >> what about the many that died
before this? >> we are not partnered to them. there is a treaty that says if a state uses chemical weapons against a citizen we have a -- >> if they kill 100,000 people and murder them, slaughter them, assassinate them, it's okay as long as they don't use chemical weapons, only if they use those weapons. >> we don't have an obligation to get in this middle of a civil war with no chemical weapons. >> not open ended, days not weeks and no regime change. >> how do you know that's what they're going to do? >> i'm telling you what they will do. >> they telegraphed what they will do to the world. >> if you could degrade his military system on chemical weapons that would be worth doing. if it saves one more child's life it's worth doing. >> one more child's life. if that's the criteria then why didn't wo go in 30 months ago? >> as i said i thought we should
have supplied -- >> why isn't the president moving more swiftly. if john kerry says this is hitler 2.0 even though he had cozy dinner with him and the messages have been all over the place. it's a little disconcerting at this point, sean, to have the democrats lecturing us on wmds. you saw the footage from iraq, the same democrats, don't go in, the intel is incredible and now we have credible intel. >> the guy that got us into a tragic war. >> we interfere in all these conflicts particularly egypt and syria and what do we get in return? >> the president won't arrest any in al qaeda? >> we didn't go into the congo and there was a slaughter that happened there. there's all sorts of slaughters. >> there is a difference.
the distinction is chemical weapons. that has two international treaties. >> if that's your standard you ought to support me because i think we ought to take out iran's nuclear sites before they associate their radicalism -- >> you're with me? >> i have no problem with that. >> the nukes. >> yeah. >> why don't we take out the middleman and go right into iraq? >> right into iran? >> because we can't win a ground war in iran. >> we don't need the ground war, we need bunker buster bombs and all those facilities would be a monumental military task as they're spread all throughout the country. >> the israelwe will fire a cou missiles into a donkey's behind. >> come on. >> when was the last time you got involved in -- >> good to see you. i love "the five." >> our first supporter. >> strongest supporter. >> i know. >> love you guys. coming up next, the architect, karl rove, is here to
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presidential ambivalence is far from a winning strategy. the op-ed had some advice for president obama. resolute leadership, clear goals and as much unity in washington are required when america contemplates military action. someone at the white house might want to let the president know. karl rove, the architect. i guess he can't even remember his own red line. i guess he's having a hard time remembering he said his goal was regime clang because jay carney and general dempsey both said it's not the goal in this effort. so i guess the debate is first within himself. >> you've just given a road map to some of the great problems with the administration's handling of this affair. two years ago, president obama said the time has come for bashar assad has to go.
it makes him look weak and feckless. for two years nothing happened. like he was talking to himself. over a year ago he said if they use chemical weapons it will be a red line that cause serious consequences. they used chemical weapons earlier this year and used definitively chemical weapons earlier this summer and the president apparently had no plan, didn't think about what to do about it, didn't go out and build an international coalition saying if he uses them we better be prepared to act and this is what we want to do. this is amateur hour. you alluded to it. this leading from behind. he put the british prime minister in a no win position. he told david cameron, go ahead and get a vote in your parliament to allow you to use force. you don't do that if you're not ready to act. what he should have said to cameron is why don't you wait until the united states congress votes or i definitively say i will go and then you go to your parliament. instead, he put him out there.
the vote got lost and then to top it all off, the president leaks to the "washington post" he was annoyed with cameron and the white house staff said that the president felt cameron had mishandled the situation. that's a great way to get allies to line up behind you. >> help me out. he said if the red line was crossed he would act. this is the third line it's crossed. then he said he would act and then backs down and says he will go to congress. now, he's getting threatened by russia and syria and iran are threatening to retaliate against israel. he's only threatening just a couple days of cruise missile strikes. doesn't that seem weak and feckless itself? >> first of all. let's take what russia says. it will give a missile shield to syria. good luck trying to do that, a, and good luck trying to do that quickly, b and good luck trying to get the syrians to operate it, c and good luck using a
russia missile defense system, not very good and what the united states has or iron dome. basically bluster. and syria and iran to attack israel. you can say a lot of things about assad. he's not stupid enough to follow through on that. he knows exactly what would happen if he attacks israel he would get chewed up and spit out badly. iranians make these threats all the time about israel and don't follow through on them. assad that's domestic consumption. that's bluster and bluff. he knows how bad it would be if he brought israel off the sidelines and into the conflict. there was some discussion earlier this year him attempting to give back the golan heights but that was nothing but syrian nationlism and shore up his b e base. he ain't coming no ifs or buts about that. >> cakarl, listen 114,000 peopl died and now with chemical
weapons and that makes a difference. we should have acted earlier and with secular american forces they seem to have dwindled the numbers. i guess the question is if the president really wants to deal with the hostility in the region and the real threat in the region, don't we have to look to iran and them becoming nuclear coupled with their radical fascist ideology? >> two things, one is iran is the bigger problem. the moment of opportunity to strike there is when they bring this material from all of these different parts of the country together at some place inside iran to fabricate a weapon. they aren't there yet. we attack these facilities which are deeply -- which are spread around the country. before the material gets to that place we will take out part but not all of their material. the second thing is, i was listening with interest to the conversation earlier about this. just remember in 2007 you talked about taking bunker busters and going and getting these weapons. they know what the capability of the current arsenal of u.s. weapons is, the bunker busters.
they engineer these facilities. they saw what happened when the israelis took out the syrian and iraqi facility and know the capability of our weapons so they dug these installations far enough into the ground so they could survive the existing supply of bunker busters. 2006 we had an election, elected a democrat congress. in 2007, the bush administration went to congress and asked for a modest several hundred million in additional moneys to upgrade our conventional weapons stock. the idea was make the bunker busters tougher so you have some -- you injected t eedsom s instability in the situation, you thought we couldn't get to those. one of the first things nancy pelosi did was vote down the proposal to upgrade the convention weapons stock. we lost an important bargaining tool. they think and probably right these facilities are deep enough to avoid our current
conventional weapons. 92 they're spread throughout the country, not one area. >> that's correct. >> very difficult military operation. >> that's why i think the president makes a mistake by hanging us all on the use of chemical weapons. we have a strategic interest for syria, syria a proxy for iran and hezbollah and russia. if assad prevails it's a victory for those four. if assad goes it's a victory for the united states and our allies in the region. >> i don't know if it's victory in the end if it's an al qaeda linked group. >> i hope we can have a larger conversation. al qaeda elements are largely dominated by foreign fighters and al nas ra with 5,000. i find it hard to believe a country with several tens of millions of syrians say we will accept domination by foreign fighters and terrorists. >> i'd like to believe more moderate pre-syrian army and opposition forces will win.
i'm not believing that because of the changes of the outside world. >> the outside influence is on the side of the moderates now being armed and trained by jordanian, egyptian and gulf state because they've come to realize what a terrible threat iran and hezbollah and syrians and russians will mean in that part of the world. >> i think it's a tough sell, too unpredictable. >> it's precarious. >> i got to go. i get that victory by syria is predictable it will hurt the strategic interests of the united states and our allies. >> thank you for being with us. appreciate it. coming up, the left wing media is working overnig ing ovg to cover for the obama's lack of leadership when it comes to syria and the outrageous examples. examples. go online and vote for i quit my job a while back to be with the kids,
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perspective. really? roll the tape. >> barack obama, as you know, better than i do, was one of the leading democratic politicians against the iraq war. so if he says that this is different that the evidence is there, that no one's disputing that chemicals were used and they have the evidence linking it to the assad regime, does that convince you because he's always come at this have a very cautious anti-war perspective. >> very cautious anti-war perspective. help me out. >> let's say that jesse james robbed banks from a very cautious law and order perspective. this is how they tie themselves in absolute knots over this. george bush had a 75% approval rate going into iraq. he had 30 countries behind him. he had unanimous support of the u.n. security council. on and on the support came for him. congress authorized it. obama has none of these things
going for him and yet they skewered bush. remember how he was going it alone, how it was a rush to judgment? they skewered him. now they're stuck with obama. >> by the way, even with chris matthews, the obama is gone, look at this. >> if we bomb damascus, people will die that night. there will be hospital scenes the next day of people with legs missing. that will happen if this president bushes the button with the backing of congress, people will dpip will this mysterious signal get delivered? we don't know that. the only thing we really know is we'll be killing poor people, committing an act of war, with this notion there's smoke signals, using western union, what we're doing is killing people and calling it a message. >> wow, love story ends here? >> well, number one, obama knows he's in trouble when even chris matthews is criticizing him, the man who said he's perfect. but isn't it interesting that one day later chris matthews
went into his usual rant calling anyone who disagreed with president obama a hater. therefore, chris matthews, you're a hater. >> let's go to savannah guthrie asking rumsfeld, does bush have anything to do with this? >> looming over this debate time and time again has been the specter of iraq, most recently the uk parliament, many members cited the failure of intelligence leading up to iraq as the reason that they won't take action now in syria, because they don't trust the u.s. intelligence. do you personally take any responsibility for that? or feel any responsibility for that? >> will somebody show this woman the gassed children in iraq and the kurds in the north? somebody help her out. i know she's a novice to this, but god help this woman. >> this is the politics of deflection. they're trying to do everything in their power to take the attention off of barack obama so they blame it on george bush. the uk parliament didn't vote this down because they don't
trust the u.s. intelligence. they voted this down because they don't want to do it period because they think it's not a good idea. by the way, the rest of the world things this is not a good idea. the only person who thinks this is a good idea happens to be barack obama and maybe msnbc. i don't know. >> thanks for being with us. man: sometimes it's like we're still in college. but with a mortgage. and the furniture's a lot nicer. and suddenly, the most important person in my life is someone i haven't even met yet. who matters most to you says the most about you. at massmutual we're owned by our policyowners, and they matter most to us. as you plan your next step, we'll help you get there. you will lose 3 sets of keys 4 cell phones 7 socks and 6 weeks of sleep but one thing you don't want to lose is any more teeth. if you wear a partial, you are almost twice as likely
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oof. checkmate for the good guys. thank you for being with us. let not your heart be troubled. the news continues. greta van susteren, greta, take it away. this is a fox news alert. the u.s. could attack syria by air. senior defense department sources telling fox news channel the use of air assets could now be in play and the size of any potential air strike depends on prb's target list and that list is constantly changing. a pentagon source telling fox news channel jennifer griffin that military channels have revised their plans 50 times just since president obama began considering a limited strike on syria. meanwhile, new questions about the president's leadership on syria are surfacing. >> can you imagine any president ever saying it's not my problem, it's america's problem? who the hell says that? who? what kind of person thinks that?