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tv   The Ingraham Angle  FOX News  May 25, 2018 11:00pm-12:00am PDT

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barnes & noble's. "liars, thinkers and liberals, the chase against the trump conspiracy." have a great night. >> good evening from new york, i am jesse watters in for laura, and this is an ingraham angle special. the script is flipping, as the investigators, under investigation. tonight we will examine the issues. whether spygate is the watergate of our era, or whether timing is key to proving whether the obama administration spied on the trump campaign. former agents claimed that president trump simply made up spygate despite all the growing evidence. signs americans are fed up with russia, russia, russia, as democrats start to fear a major backlash. and whether trump can get mueller to wind up his
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investigation by consenting to an interview. let's look at spygate. that's what president trump calls a growing reports that the fbi under obama placed at least one informant or spy in his presidential campaign. those reports also fueled suspicion on the right that the russian investigation has been nothing more than a political coup by obama allies in the deep state against the duly elected president of the united states. in an era of the exploding surveillance state. have we actually witnessed an infiltration of the presidential campaign of the opposing party? in an editorial in wednesday's investor's daily points out how timing is everything. they pointed out that the timing of the russian investigation keep shifting, and the earlier the probe began "the less likely it is to have anything to do with russian involvement in the 2016 elections but everything to
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do with stopping the surprising surge of trump during the g.o.p. primaries and beyond." let's examine that prospect with some top-notch experts. former fbi agent jeff beatty is in orlando. in washington, bill benny who served more than 30 years as top intel official with the nsa before turning whistle-blower. and here in new york, steve rogers, former fbi joint terrorism task force. steve, let's start with you. i have a theory here, one is bad and one's a little worse. first, the obama administration thought there was russia infiltration so they use the trump officials as bait in order to lure the russians in. but nothing materialized, and they looked around and thought, i have some trump people on the hook here, let's turn the screws. or, it was deceitful from the very beginning and they wanted eyes and ears on the trump campaign. so without any probable cause, they cooked up this echo chamber
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of spies and lies and misinformation to get the surveillance. what do you think? >> if they were going for the russians, they would have gone for the trump campaign. there in their hands are the greatest assets of human intelligence right in the trump campaign. they would have wired those individuals up and said the russians are coming after you, we need you and we need you to wire you up. they are going after donald trump. >> jesse: bill, where are the russians here in this investigation? we see lots of spies and fbi people but we haven't seen a lot of russian spies. have they ever materialized? >> even the effort they put forth to say it was a russian hacker turned out to be a very clear fabrication. it's provable through forensics, that it's not a valid download remotely. so all of it was fabricated.
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>> jesse: so jeff, like bill just mentioned, it all started with the so-called hack of the democrat computers. now the counter intel investigation opened up a couple weeks after the emails released in the summer with debbie wasserman schultz. and remember they rake the primaries, all that stuff. why didn't the fbi then go look at the server at the dnc and do a forensic audit? wouldn't that be the first place you would look if you are looking for russian infiltration? >> well that goes back to 2015. i'm a believer in your course of action, too, that you outlined at the top of the show. but let me give you what i see as the bluff, the bottom line up front. the fbi gave a defensive briefing to the democratic national committee when they had information that there was a foreign entity trying to sway, influence, move into or
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penetrate the democratic apparatus. they did not do that for the republican apparatus, as steve alluded to. but they did from the very beginning was treat the republican apparatus differently. democrat, defensive briefing, let's work together. a republican. i think it was nothing more than a fig leaf to use other government agencies to introduce a russian reason as to why they could go ahead and launch an investigation, for two purposes. first of all, to get political intelligence as to what was going on on the inside of the campaign so they could use it, and secondly, to be able to destroy their enemy. these guys, not to use a chris matthews reference, but these guys were playing hardball. >> jesse: there are no chris matthews of references on this show, those are now banned for the rest of the hour. >> no more [laughs] >> jesse: it but you did touch
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on a serious issue, they did have suspicions about either paige or manafort or papadopoulos in the spring. and instead of interviewing whoever, they don't do any of that. they don't even alert donald trump that, we are supposed to protect you, there could be some issues. instead they just wiretap everybody and send spy rings throughout the whole campaign. it doesn't seem like an anti-rush operation, it seems like an anti-trump operation. >> if they didn't even go into the dnc to see if there was a russian opening the back door to the servers. >> i believe the state said that jay james comey testified before congress and give hillary clinton a pass, they never really pursued the 33,000 missing emails, number one. what happened to bill clinton and the famous tarmac meeting at the airport with loretta lynch? they gave her a pass. and as i said earlier, why didn't they go to the trump campaign and say, i think the russians are coming.
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what we need you to do is wire your people up, we want to trap your people. >> theft because they had them all wired, once you get one person in the campaign you have the whole campaign. >> jesse: and half of these guys were coming in and out of trump tower. the other couple guys were overseas. they threw everything at this campaign. they threw spies, informants, secret subpoenas, electronic surveillance, fake dossiers, unmasking. every technicality that you have used in an investigation, they threw everything at these guys. and you know what? donald trump still won the election, what does that say? >> no evidence of collusion. >> keep in mind, jesse, they are using the nsa databases, and they can retroactively analyze all the data on everyone in the campaign. >> jesse: now clapper, as we
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all remember, one of the top intelligence chiefs under president barack obama has been doing the rounds on television, and he the whole spying thing, kind of. >> i think he is deliberately spending a narrative, whereby he is the victim of the deep state spying on him or spying on a campaign, which is not the case. that's what i would call my informed opinion, that given the massive effort that the russians made in the number of citizens that they touched, to me, it exceeds logic and credulity that they didn't affect the election. and it's my belief they actually turned it. >> so i ask you, was the fbi spying on trump's campaign? >> know they were not. they were spying -- a term i don't particularly like but, what the russians were doing. >> why isn't he happy about that? >> he should be. >> jesse: first of all,
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james clapper is on the view. i don't think the top intel guy for any team should be on the view. second of all, he just admitted they spied but they were trying to help president trump. president trump should thank them for spying on the campaign, right? >> jesse, one thing you said opening up and the question is, did the obama administration know about this, i don't believe for one minute they didn't know. i believe obama knew what was going on and his justice department knew what was going on, and it's all falling apart. >> jesse: that's a great point, bill. we have evidence that the white house was in the loop on this. we have some text that at one point say, the white house is running this, talking about this counterintelligence operation. there are briefings with the top people in the obama team, the white house chief of staff was in on the loop, how could obama not know that this was happening? >> after all, just take the steel dossier.
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that was some fellow from misix, which is the equivalent of cia. the end cia was involved, the department of justice. the only place that those organizations come to a point where it can be ordered and coordinated is the president. >> jesse: and we do have records of this spy, or whatever you want to call him in england was getting paid pretty handsomely by the obama administration, right around the same time he was running these dirty tricks. this guy was connected to mi6 and cia. he had done some dirty tricks on elections in the past. he's been outspoken about his support for hillary clinton and even tried to get a job within the trump administration afterwards. so jeff, it's all coming apart. >> it is. to see klapper and brennan out there with the titles of former director, et cetera, these guys
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are no longer intelligence officials, and it's time for the president to start striking back at them. and by that, i mean, a lot of these senior people get to keep their security clearances so they can consult within people in government. there is no need to have security clearances anymore. start taking away brennan's security clearance, or access to anything, klapper security clearance or access to anything, because they have become partisans. they are not out there doing what they should be as professionals which is to do their job and be blind, agnostic, when it comes to party politics. >> jesse: that is a bold move to make and i think president trump would make that move or flirt with doing that. you brought up an interesting point about people, though, still in the fbi or in the doj that do have these clearances. we are hearing word here at fox news that there may be some people coming forward, may be some whistle-blowers that might like to talk about how james comey ran these operations, how he dealt with the clintons and
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how he dealt with the trump campaign. if you guys were still in the government, would you guys come forward and testify and lawyer up? >> the good news, the oig report is about to come out and the oig has the ability to protect the whistle-blowers within the department of justice and within the fbi. so hopeful and optimistic that some of those folks will do the right thing and get protected by the oig, and we might see some of their content coming out in his report. >> jesse, they need to break down the blue wall of silence. when the ship is sinking, no one will throw you a life raft. >> according to the constitution, you have recourse to congress. and that's exactly what i did in 2002, and i won. i went to congress to report some of the spying on u.s. citizens. it's all a lie when they tell you they are after the russians. their tapping points in the fairview program are internal in
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the u.s. there are 11 points that they could pick up every foreigner into or out of or through the united states, if they stay at those 11 points, they get them all. >> jesse: the russians that they did indict, all they were doing was calling hillary names on facebook. not that bad. guys, gotta run, thank you. up next to incredibly compost fbi agents give us the inside story of what's happening inside the bureau right now. and, why current agents are reportedly so fed up that they want to testify before congress.
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if spygate is real, if the obama administration spied on a political component without justification, it could be the biggest scandal in history. so it's little wonder that james comey appointed by obama and fired by trump was involved, in full denial mode last night. >> you find it possible there was a spy inserted into his campaign by an intelligence agency? >> i don't find it possible and i know it not to be true which is why i'm confident there will be something else bigger than waterproof gate next week. >> jesse: they are so
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disgusted with comey, they told "the daily caller" that they want to testify to congress that politics and incompetence at the top are destroying the bureau. here is how senator ron johnson, chairman of the senate committee responded to that report wednesday on the ankle. >> what surprised me as we haven't had fbi agents come forward to our committee. they are going to go to the press. >> and testify on what? >> we heard that when comey exonerated clinton, they were going to blow a basket, gasket basically. why did they come forward? >> jesse: it sounds like his problems may be just beginning. let's discuss spygate with two distinguished members of the bureau. in phoenix, fbi spokesperson john einar rally, and former fbi agent and counter terrorism expert chad jenkins who was awarded three bronze star metals
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as an army ranger. so i don't think these guys are getting their story straight, john. you heard at the top of the show, klapper said there was a spy in there, and then call me on the late-night shows that there wasn't a spy. it's kind of important to make sure everybody is on the same page, don't you think? >> i find it odd that director comey is going on the view. >> i will tell you that, agents across the board are not political. but at the top, there appears to be a problem there. if they were interested in russians, the first person you will talk to would be the person that was the victim of the russians and that didn't happen. >> jesse: no, instead they spied on that person and surveilled them.
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it's not good for james comey, he's basically contaminated the so-called crime scene. you have these agents in there and when you bring in the fake dossier and the illegal spying, it doesn't look good. if it was the court of law, this thing would get tossed. do you think this is the genesis of this anger by the booths at the fbi, or not? >> i think it is, jesse. we are at the point where the judge in this is the american people, and the american people are being lied to on all sides at this point. no one really knows where the truth lies, and at this point what we recommend is, this whole entire investigation, the special counsel, it needs to be declassified. we are at the point where the american society as a whole will fall in on itself if we don't get to the bottom of what the truth is.
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not the half-truth, but the full truth. the only way to do that is have these agents come out whether through subpoenas and testifying, something has to happen in order to get everything out there so that we can all decide and see for ourselves what is really taking place in this mess. >> jesse: there is a real insurrection brewing with the rank and file. james comey obviously not an admired leader. remember, we heard things about his leadership during the campaign. there were many people very upset with the way he treated the hillary clinton criminal probe. just look at the difference, john. hillary's people were given immunity and trumps people are going scorched earth. hillary destroyed evidence under subpoena and the truck people have given over millions and millions of documents. it's just very unfair to the average person with the way this thing has been handled
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politically by the bureau. >> for more than 100 years the fbi enjoyed this great reputation to defend the american people. i'm afraid in the past couple of years, that reputation is diminishing not because of the rank and file like you said but because of the actions of people like this. in the past, the fbi has always been very clear. we treat both sides of the political aisle the same, but there are certainly problems there that are not congruent with the way one side is being treated versus the other. i agree with my colleague, we need to come clear here and let the american people know what is going on so we can have confidence in the fbi. >> jesse: there is lying taking place all over. tucker last night had joe digenova on and he had this to say about the atmosphere there. >> they are lying in the most unbelievably brazen and insidious way. if they were not spying on the trump campaign, why did they not just tell the trump people, the
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russians are coming after you, be careful. because that's not what they were doing. they were spying on the trump campaign trying to frame people and set them up. comey and klapper and brennan are a group of psychotics that can't stop lying. >> jesse: he made a point about setting up. you know, they were getting invited over to england and wined and dined, and had hotels and airlines paid for, they were getting set up for drinks with clinton donors. the flynn deal where he was ambushed without an attorney by peter strzok. you have the russian lawyer that granted an exceptional visa by loretta lynch to come into the country. she meets with the president of fusion gps before and after the trump tower meeting. looking back, a lot of it looks set up. do you believe it was set up? >> as an attorney, i would take
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this case in a heartbeat and claim entrapment at the very least. it doesn't look good, the objects, even if they have the best of intentions which i don't think existed, it looks bad. that's why these political cases, the fbi is so careful because they want to be concerned with how the public will perceive their actions. that wasn't done in this case, and it has hurt everyone. >> jesse: this is why, chad. they won't give any information to the congressional oversight people who have a constitutional right to use their oversight powers to look into what the fbi is doing. why are they stonewalling if everything was on the up and up? >> you are right, jesse. we are to the point where we can no longer say that the fbi and doj is a political, and they were the blindfold that lady liberty wears. that is gone, that ship has sailed. that goes back to my point, where we need to divulge
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everything. the truth needs to be told. you look at it, going back to james comey, i tried to give him the benefit of the doubt. i actually read his book and that's actually what changed my opinion of him. too often, number one he's always on the right side of history throughout. the only real vulnerability that he shares as may be being a bully to a college kid one time. outside of that, in his professional career, he makes every decision rightful every single time. then you out what happened with loretta lynch and bill clinton on the tarmac, there is political involvement in that. as the fbi director, he needed to address that. step up to the plate and be the leader that you need to be an address that if you are really truly trying to be apolitical. >> jesse: he's above it all and he's so sanctimonious. listen to what he said about the president to stephanopoulos. >> is donald trump unfit to be president? >> i don't think he's medically
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unfit to be president, i think he is morally unfit to be president. >> jesse: for a leaguer and an operator, political animal come up that really has a tough track record at the fbi with all these abuses piling up, i don't think he's fit to be casting moral judgment on the commander in chief. guys, gotta run. great talking to you. laura's interview with a former trump campaign advisor on what it was like to be targeted by an fbi informant, that's next.
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>> jesse: the russia investigation turned into spygate after "the new york times" reported last week that the fbi had placed at least one informant inside the trump presidential campaign. the informant met several times with carter page who only served briefly as an advisor to the trump campaign. michael cavuto said he was
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approached by a suspicious individual during the election. laura spoke with both paige and cavuto on monday about those experiences and here is a look back. >> let's start with you. you had a lot of contact with this informant. okay, whatever we want to call him. informant, spy, mole. i want to read one of the emails that he sent to you. i believe it was released by daily caller. dear carter, i find as the summer is on to ask how you are and what your plans are at this point. it seems attention has shifted from the collusion investigation to contempt in the white house, and how or if mr. scaramuchi will be accommodated there. i must assume this gives you some release. if you have time, get in touch. it would be great to catch up. when did you first meet this
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informant that we now know is an informant, and briefly tell us about that exchange? >> well again, similar to you in terms of being cautious about identity, i have also -- i never knew anything about the person i was speaking with who is a university professor at cambridge, in the u.k., at the time. i was invited to participate in a conference in july of 2016, and everything seemed totally normal. frankly, i had been falsely accused myself. we will see what happens in terms of if further details come out. but based on everything i have seen thus far, we still don't have any information. >> we know he was paid a million dollars over five years, pretty good money as a consultant or researcher. but we shall see.
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who started the conversation, how did the date begin? did he approach you or did he mention russian collusion first? >> it was a multi-day conference, and there were scholars and people from government, both from the united kingdom -- >> i know, but stay focused with me. did he approach you first or did you approach him? >> i don't even recall. we spent a couple days together. it was a long event over several days. >> what i'm saying is, there were lots of scholars there. you have to know the process of grooming someone. when someone is an informant, they don't just go up to someone and say, i want to plant information on you or find out what you have. you try to win someone's trust over and that's how it goes. >> i never felt groomed. if he's good at doing that, then
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perhaps that's part of the game. >> but you don't know who mentioned the collusion issue first. >> i can't even remember. you know, i think russia was in the news, and a lot of politics sort of revolved around various news events, and so these various stories came up. we stayed in touch for over a year, and -- >> i'm sorry to interrupt, but we have limited time. looking back on that, it does anything seem odd? you know when you look back and think, was a little odd. and given what we know now, odd, out of the ordinary, or maybe somewhat improper? >> i tend to give people the benefit of the doubt.
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and it might be something but i might have otherwise expected. we had things happening with this dodgy dossier which was first debuted in september 2016 as a way of damaging the trump campaign, and destroying myself. he always seemed very sympathetic about that. so again, we will see. i like to give people the benefit of the doubt, and people that know him in washington and senior circles that i have spoken with afterwards say, you seem like a pretty decent guy. >> that would be the perfect person to use for it. maybe i'm just cynical. but if only they gave you the benefit of the doubt. we've been through the meat grinder at the investigation and he has all of these are really
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highly skilled interviewers, or prosecutors on his side. many of them, but not all of them, i have been a built-in animus against donald trump. you are very angry that you have been drawn into this. and i think carter has been through more of a meat grinder than i have. in fact when i first heard about this, i think in 2016 or 2017 about carter, i wasn't very kind in my criticism. they were treating them poorly and i think we owed carter an apology. and that was months and months or even years. i'm angry, and i'm surprised that carter is not. he is a greater man than i, i
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think. this is sick and twisted stuff. like carter said to come up this gentleman who shall not be named has a reputation of being very pro-american and very patriotic. if, in fact, he was brought into this under false circumstances or false pretenses as well, he's the kind of guy that a deep state would target. >> well, the dossier was the basis for getting this. i don't care what people say, it was all a big lie. without that dossier, carter page would not have been surveilled in the fall of 2016. that would not have happened. they were running to that russian oligarch to get him involved. and he said, i don't even like paul manafort, this is ridiculous. they were working this informant angle and they brought you in, michael, which we will get to in a moment. but i want to play for you what
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sally yates, the acting attorney general at the very beginning of the trump administration, and the one responsible for interviewing michael flynn at the beginning, i had to say. >> i think what we are saying here is, the president has taken is all out assault on the rule of law to a new level. and in this case, he's ordering up an investigation of the investigators who are examining his own campaign. that's really shocking. rob rosenstein is trying to strike a balance here between diffusing the situation, but also protecting the rule of law and the institutional integrity of the department. >> carter page, as i pointed out in the opening anger. the government under the obama administration has surveilled people and lied about that. and with clapper, whether it was the fbi under holder, surveillance journalists, they had a problem telling the history.
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your reaction? >> going to michael's point about things they did to me, president trump during the campaign would often say, this is not about me, this is about us. it's about terrible things that have been to so many people like michael, like some of the other people that are involved. they actually spoke very positively. i got a positive impression about the informant and a couple of people i mention him to. and the campaign, i was pretty positive with the endorsement. i hope and pray that all these allegations turn out to be false. and that's why i'm somewhat open with my communications, it will lead to some truth finally for the department of justice. i have been asking for the doj to own up to these things. it's funny, the defamation suit
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that i have against a top media organization and doj, the media organization is actually much more honest than the false pleadings by the doj so far. >> all right, we have to play this james clapper for michael. he is basically just justifying the use of any type of informant. >> at the fork focus here with the intelligence community is not on the campaign per se, but what the russians were doing to try to instantiate themselves in the campaign or to influence and leverage that. so if there was someone who observes that sort of thing, that's a good thing. the russians pose a threat to the very basis of our political system. >> michael, you see a pattern here? former obama administration officials justifying spying on surveilling or whatever you want to call it, putting a mole in, and a hotly contested election here. final thought?
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>> you have spent time in russia, and the national security leadership that secretly spies on the entire citizenry of russia, and here we are in the united states with our own soliloquy under president obama. here's something that i know as a fact. this informant, the person they try to plant into the campaign and even into the administration if you believe axios, is not the only person that came with the campaign and i know because they came at me. i'm looking for clearance from my attorney to reveal it to the public, and this is just the beginning. i tell you, when we finally find out the truth about this, director klapper and the rest of them are going to be wearing some orange suits. >> michael cavuto and carter page, i hope we get to the bottom of this much sooner than people are predicting because the american people deserve to
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know who is behind us, who authorized it and how high up the ladder it went. thank you both for joining us tonight. >> jesse: we should note that the producer got in touch with the person he was just talking about and, he claims he was not working for any intelligence agency. we will see. next, americans may be fed up with russia, prussia, russia. we will show you what a new poll says and whether the russian obsession will backfire on democrats in november.
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>> jesse: welcome back to our "the ingraham angle" special of the russian cloud. it could backfire on the president's opponents. americans are growing tired of it. a poll shows that 30% of americans believe the investigation should stop immediately. 20% say the investigation should wind down with the next three months. and on wednesday, nancy pelosi heard from an increasingly skeptical public during our cnn town hall. >> if trump actually colluded with the russians, why wasn't he found guilty of it after a year of investigation? would there be some type of concrete proof? >> he knows there is an investigation going on under counsel molar, and that is where
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we wouldn't have any idea of what was going on in that, nor should we know what is going on in that investigation. it takes time. >> jesse: are democrats putting too many eggs in the mueller basket? let's ask conservative commentator and fox news contributor rachel campos duffy in wausau, wisconsin. so, ladies first. we will start with you, because i'm a gentleman. i think the democrats should just nominate mueller. that's the only thing they can have that stopped president trump. they don't have anything else. >> every day that they talk about russia and trump and that the republicans talk about america, it's a winning day for republicans. i heard your poll numbers earlier, the one poll number we
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should focus on his 75% which is the americans that give donald trump credit for crushing it on the economy. the democrats are frustrated right now and there are a few people out there that are trying to raise the red flags. one of them is a former clinton camp person saying, get off the special counsel, get off of russia. come up with a a message because you don't have one. and that's a problem coming into the midterm. >> jesse: do you think that's a disservice, because they haven't crafted any coherent message around policy that can jive with the voters. >> i don't know if that is the case. if you follow social media and the resistance movement, certainly they talk about russia all the time. there are other networks that talk about russia all the time. but i think the candidates that are out on the trail all across
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the country, looking forward to november, they are talking about other issues. they are talking about jobs and the economy and climate change, and other things that are topical to their district. >> jesse: i don't think i would talk about climate change, that's not the best policy prescription for the midterms. but i understand when people are politicking and pressing the flesh of the barbecues, they talk one on one about stuff that is good for the local district. but the megaphone with the media, the machine, the democratic party apparatus, they are not talking about kitchen table issues, they are talking about impeaching, talking about russia, i don't even know what their slogan is next midterm. >> absolutely. the message from the democrat party is not just russia, but also, vote for us, we will impeach donald trump. the american people i don't think are buying that. that's why we are seeing this blue wave turned into a trickle because of that. >> jesse: pelosi is not even buying that and if it's too crazy for pelosi, maybe they
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should reconsider. >> very true. i think they counted on to things. they thought they could have 24/7 bad press on trump, and we all know it's a 90% bad press on him. they thought they could start with this whole russia hoax, and they thought they could continue their resistance. i know our guest here, jason altmear says, the resistance. well the resistance isn't the democrat party and i think the american people see that. what they didn't count on was a, a year and a half of spying on trump and trying to frame people from his camp campaign, they have come up with nothing in a year and a half, zero evidence. and there's something else that they didn't expect. they didn't expect him to crush it on the economy, to decimate vices, to really keep all of the promises that he did on the campaign trail. i can tell you that here in
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wausau, wisconsin, when i talk to people, that's the one thing that i hear the most. whether they agree with him or not, they say this is a guy that keeps his promises. voters didn't expect that because they got cynical and didn't think it would happen. >> jesse: jason, what do you think about that? >> i wouldn't say they have come up with nothing, there have been 17 indictments and five guilty pleas. >> jesse: nothing to do with collusion. >> two of those guilty pleas have to do with russia, and certainly, the mueller investigation is not complete. we don't know what the investigation is going to do. and both had to do with russia. the one having to do with russia is not collusion. and with papadopoulos, he got the date wrong. then the investigators that interviewed flynn, they came back and said they didn't think he was lying. >> but he pled guilty so i think that's pretty clear. i'm not prejudging what the report is going to say, i'm
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simply saying that it is an ongoing investigation. there have been laws broken and there have been guilty pleas and indictments. i don't buy this witch hunt idea. this is a legitimate issue and let's get to the bottom of it. >> jesse: you are turning all around, because these abuses keep stocking up on the democrat side when they were in office, and it may not look too good once we get everything straightened out. i have to run guys, thank you. >> i couldn't agree with you more, jesse. we are sitting on the mother of all scandals. >> jesse: as president trump says, we will see what happens. up next, we reveal the leverage the president's legal team is now using to get the special counsel to end its investigation of the president, up next >> jesse: the trumpet legal
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team -- trump legal team has gone on to the offensive. giuliani told "the huffington post" that they could probably decide by june 12 went to testify in front of mueller's team, but he also told "the washington post" the president was still likely to meet with north korean president kim jong un then mueller. and he tweeted that that still could happen. let's look into legal strategies with attorney and democrat roger coyle and kenneth delvecchio of new jersey. it's my opinion, kindness, the president shouldn't go near bob mueller for a few reasons. one, i don't trust mueller. number two, the president has a big mouth and he likes to talk a lot. and that's not a good strategy when you are facing a possible indictment by someone who doesn't seem to like you too much.
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>> absolutely under no circumstances should he go and speak with special counsel. and if there is nothing good that can come out of it. you don't go and talk with u.s. attorneys, with the justice department, unless you are dead in the water. since trump is innocent, and he's only going to go there to get his words potentially twisted, to get some bogus obstruction or perjury charges filed against him. and you have to look at it first from a criminal law perspective. as a criminal lawyer, i would advise him 100% not to go. now, the political angle is secondary, deep second. what are the political ramifications? mueller will do what, subpoena him in front of a grand jury? so he will take the fifth. >> jesse: it just doesn't look good when -- whoever you are, i it doesn't look good. >> i think president trump owes it to the american people to let us know what happened in this investigation.
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i know the two of you think the whole thing is a hoax and the whole thing is made up. >> jesse: i didn't say it was a hoax, i said it was fishy based on the facts. >> i think the facts show as your previous guest said, we have 17 indictments. and by the way, what you are going to say is, it's not about collusion. well guess what it's about? obstruction of justice. you want to focus on the collusion with russia, so when you have people -- >> jesse: he can fire people for whatever reason he wants. so how could he be charged with -- >> five people around the president, people very close to him have pled guilty. you are a criminal lawyer, you were a judge and prosecutor. people don't do that casually. what they should just do is let the facts and let the process run. the reason why i think the president should sit down with an interview with bob mueller and -- >> jesse: he pled guilty, that had nothing to do with it. >> there is no obstruction
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because number one, he has the right to fire anybody he wants anytime he wants. if a u.s. attorney knows that an underling is investigating somebody who he knows is innocent, let's say the guys name is bob, and he is investigating bob for murder. but the u.s. attorney himself knows that he is innocent because he was with him at the time of the murder, not only does he have the right to end of the investigation, he has the duty. so if donald trump knows he is and people around him know he's innocent, he had a duty almost to end the mueller investigation. >> jesse: so he goes to talk to mueller. >> if the president has nothing to hide, why doesn't he sit down with bob mueller? >> because he has the right to remain silent. justice is -- politically, he should not be guiding this. the man's constitutional rights to protect themselves should be
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guiding it and he should be treated the same as everyone else. >> jesse: clinton went and talked to a grand jury and you know what happened? perjury. >> this network was very supportive of that, so what changed? >> jesse: i just said, don't go talk to the grand jury if you have nothing to hide. and what did bill clinton do? he went to talk to the grand jury and he was convicted of perjury. >> what would you do if you are donald trump? it's a risky proposition. >> i have a great idea for justice. why don't we pack the office of special counsel, just like there has been talk about packing the supreme court. put nine special councils altogether and they all have to vote to even seek an indictment or even seek a warrant. >> let me say this very quickly. the american people deserve, no man is above the law. we will agree to that, it's a political process. the ultimate jury will be in the 2018 and 2020 elections where the american people pass
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judgment. >> jesse: i think we can all agree on that. guys, gotta go. we will be right back.
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>> that's all the time we >> that is (we had tonight. don't forget to watch waters world tonight. >> charlie and the chocolate
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factory. >> tommy laren and diamond ansell. lauren will be back monday, memorial day special in defending the first. have a wonderful weekend. take a moment to reflect on the sacrifices. >> welcome to fox news at night. this is a fox news alert. looks like kim jong un may have blinked, the singapore summit with north korea could still happen in a couple weeks. the breaking details from the white house straight ahead. there may be a slim chance the pres. will get funding for the border wall before the midterms. is immigration debate about to take another shift, we will talk to california republican jeff

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