defense secretary patrick shanahan about afghanistan. troops overseas. space and the border. "the story with martha maccallum" starts right now. >> martha: thank you. >> ♪ >> martha: here's where we stand. after a week of bad biden headlines there is a new narrative emerging around bernie sanders. >> bernie sanders hitting donald trump on not releasing taxes. he hasn't released his either. >> i don't think that bernie sanders can get away with that again in this cycle. >> you can't throw rocks from a glass house. that's what bernie sanders is doing. >> just rip off the band-aid. >> martha: the pressure on senator sanders intensifying before these headlines from the weekend had sunk in.

stop thinking of bernie sanders as a gaslight. think of him as the front it's true. sanders tops the polls among democrats who declared they are running for president. he leads everyone in fund-raising. $18 million in his war chest. that comes with just 1 week to go before the fox news bernie sanders town hall. a preview from the senator. >> when i go on fox, how do you explain that to people who voted for trump if you don't talk to people who voted for trump. >> martha: the town hall will be in pennsylvania. the biggest growth zone there has been in manufacturing. the issue of the economy the biggest hill for bernie sanders

to climb against president trump so-called magic wand, the title of an op-ed. it says 209,000 jobs in the last 12 months. the magic wand is a reference to this from then president obama who was talking about then candidate trump. >> he is going to bring all of these jobs back. what magic wand do you have? usually the answer is he doesn't have an answer. >> martha: joining me is tammy and donna. both fox news contributors. i was reading stories over the weekend, donna. it's all about bernie. he is the front guy. he has the most money. he has great name recognition and emerging in the difficult

week for joe biden. all of a sudden there is execute me about pushing for his tax returns. do you think that's a coincidence or is there an agenda to say we have other folks we like so should we knock bernie sanders down? >> senator sanders never took the keys out of the car. he kept the engine running. not only after his defeat in 2016 but helping democrats and young people to run in 2018. i am not surprised there is a lot of support for bernie sanders. >> martha: do you like see bernie sanders in that top spot? there was a lot of competition between hillary clinton and bernie sanders? >> i am an at large member of the democratic committee.

i don't have a favorite. >> martha: last time you had a favorite and it was hillary clinton. >> i know what i did. i didn't support a candidate. i have not supported a candidate since al gore. bernie sanders as well as joe biden and elizabeth warren we should not look at the early polls and proclaim them to be the bible. you will have an exciting time next week in the town hall meeting with bernie sanders. >> martha: looking forward to it. with regard to the economy in pennsylvania, obviously one of the signature states that ended up winning the election for bramante. -- president trump. talk about bernie sanders and what has been happening. >> one of the strength president trump has, as candidate and delivered on these promises, he has a background in delivering

economically. he promiseed to do certain things and did them. barack obama didn't understand how that could manifest. now americans have found that it can happen. bernie sanders has a problem. he's been just a politician. it's about delivering on a business framework and whether the american want to switch out of this framework where you have such a remarkable economic resurgence that everyone is recognizing as being remarkable and astounding. he has his background and the legacy of what he accomplished. i don't think anyone will think that someone who is a socialist or has never run a company or never delivered is going to be someone they should switch to. >> martha: donna, what do you say to that? >> well, i say to tammy and everyone, when barack obama found himself digging out from

the recession, many of my conservative friends said these jobs are not real. the truth is a job is a job. not all of them play as well as we want them to. bernie sanders and many democrats advocate for those left behind. those who want a fair shot. those who want to earn a living wage. there is no inconsistency with what bernie sanders is saying and what barack obama said in the past and what democrats will be fighting for. >> martha: the comeback is most of these jobs -- in fact the biggest group that benefitted are people who only have a high school diplomma. many call into the category they talked about. a couple of things i want to get to. tammy, respond to the charge from pete about evangelicals.

>> your problem is not with me. your problem is with my creator. >> that was odd and unprovoked and sanctimonious for the gay ideas that know the vice-president. he is not out to get mayor pete or anybody else. it's a slander on the vice-president because i think what we see are attacks on people of faith. that evangelicals are homo-folks. -- phobes. i think this will wear thin. most american like the vice-president very much and his history portrayed by certain gay activists and the democrats is

false. it's unfortunate for a gay man running to set up a victimhood framework. >> mayor pete is a man of faith. a man of god. what he was speaking to is the attacks on gays. >> not by the vice-president. >> tammy, i am not sitting here telling you something that you don't know. guys and lesbians and others have been under tremendous attacks in recent years. what he did yesterday was courageous. he spoke his truth. that's something we should spoke everyone to do. >> martha: hold on. one more thing here. i was watching another network today talking about the b-boys. bernie sanders and beto o'rourke and biden and they are sucking

all of the oxygen out of the room the other network said taking it away from women and people of color. is stacy abrams thinking about running for president? >> running for president is not on my timetable this quickly. but the energy and passion i am feeling means i have to give it serious consideration. >> martha: donna, do you think that the media in general has been favoring these other guys? >> yes, and we see it in the coverage. at some point we will make sure women get as much coverage and martha maybe you will hold a forum for the ladies on a thursday night and i will be right there with you. >> martha: you plan it and i will be there. that would be great. thanks, tammy and donna.

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deadline. it's traditional but not law to release returns going back to 96 one. the white house made it clear it's not going to happen. -- nixon. geraldo rivera is here on why the president must dig in and frustrate democrats who are harassing his presidency according to geraldo rivera. but first the congressman joins us. it's not required. he didn't do it in 2016 and people elected him yesterday. it's a personal choice and want one he will make. >> he can call it a personal choice, but the american people had an expectation when he was running for office he said he would release his returns and conform to the expectation of the american people that they know that the president or people running for president don't have their personal

financial interest impact their public decision making. that's his choice. >> martha: it is a choice. it could be politically wrong for him. it might turnout to be so, but he has the perrogative to choose or not to. >> he has the perrogative to release them because there is a public interest in him doing so. when nor his lawyers nor popular mulvaney, what they don't have is the ability to say to congress, the tax code section 61-03. >> martha: a 1924 statute? >> correct that has been regularly since 1924. it's referred to as an arcane statute. it's not. it just hasn't been used in this context. for the last 50 years every

president and major candidate released it. >> martha: do you think it should be a law or not be a law? if you want to have that proposed on the hill that we want to pass this law that says never nominee has to turn them over, you could do that. go ahead. >> to be clear we already did that. in the house we passed hr-1 that says presidential tax returns will be made public. we know what the president might do with that. the point is we have a legislative interest in the question as to whether or not the irs is properly auditing which is a practice but not a legal requirement and enforcing the tax law on the president of the united states. in order for the chairman to evaluate that question, he is using the authority under 61-03 for he as chairman to have

access to this. >> martha: you hear what geraldo rivera is about to say: this is a bad taste left in everyone's mouth from what they got in the barr report which is still coming and the mueller report. so now it's about the tax returns. what do you think you are likely to find that would be nefarious? >> we are looking for whether or not the irs is properly auditing and enforcing -- >> martha: this is just an oversight concern and has nothing to do with this president? >> no, this president is in this position because unlike every president for the last 50 years, he has not released the returns. it's impossible for us to determine without access whether or not the irs is being

influenced or is not doing the job it's supposed to do. properly auditing and enforcing tax law on the president of the united states. that's an important question. >> martha: thank you. >> thank you. >> martha: up next geraldo rivera who is right here. fox news correspondent. what do you think about that argument? everyone has done it? >> it's hypocritical. i don't know that congressman. he seems nice but the sanctimony, you can't tolerate it. this is all about the fact that the russian collusion came up empty. they are desperate to find the next thing to attach this next president. it is arcane. 1924. richard neal chairman of the house ways and means context is

attempting to use it in this context. i don't think it's ever been used in this context since its passage in the roaring '20s. this is just trying to get something embarrassing on the president. i urged him because it is i am certain, the democrats want his blood, regardless what have is the issue is, i urged him to fight, fight, fight. there is in this country a kind of a trend that everything does become public. still, i want the president to fight. i want him to frustrate jerry and adam schiff and see what his enemies intended for him. see right through them and battle them. they don't care about the irs is checking out the president's deductions because he is a

taxpayer. >> martha: mitt romney said he thought this was moronic. let's play that quickly here. >> either the democrats are just playing along his handbook, which is going after his tax returns through a legislative action. it's moronic. that's not going to happen. the courts aren't going to say you can compel a person running for office to release their tax returns. he will win this victory. >> martha: you remember when mitt romney ran, his tax returns came back showing he paid the lowest possible amount under the tax laws because of the investments he made. my guess is the president is in a similar situation. he said as much. he said i pay the lowest legal amount i am supposed to pay. that's what most americans try to pay, the lowest legal amount they can? >> of course they do. and donald trump is the first flamboyant businessman with a

multi-national corporation. it's more complex. even than mitt romney's career as an investment banker. can you imagine a room full of democratic interns pouring through everything, as if to audit the president. as if they were junior league irs agents. it's preposterous and unfair to expect this president to play along with people who only have the worse intent for him. >> martha: thank you. geraldo rivera. coming up. is outgoing dhs secretary kirstjen nielsen soft on immigration compared to where the white house wants to do go? we will debate that next. stick around. plants capture co2. what if other kinds of plants captured it too? if these industrial plants had technology that captured carbon like trees we could help lower emissions.

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>> martha: when you have coulter and elizabeth warren on the same page it raises questions about what is coming next. here are their responses to the news that homeland security secretary kirstjen nielsen was on the way out. tweeting that tearing innocent families apart will haunt her for the rest of her life. i asked the secretary about other hard line critics at the border. >> you don't think the president is say week ago are not tough enough on the border and we have to make a change? >> no. >> what is the president saying about how you are doing your job? >> i talk to him once or twice a day. everything is on the table. >> martha: joining me is charlie herd and chris hann and james

hayes. welcome to all of you. there are a couple of stories how the about what prompted this. this it's clear that the white house was not satisfied with how things are going. from kirstjen nielsen's camp they feel they were just working on the law and congress needs to change immigration laws. is that true or are there things that can be done to carry out the president's agenda more quickly? >> it's absolutely true. we faced a very similar situation when george bush was president. we had a supportive congress that immediately passed some funding for additional detention beds and technology. i heard that the acting

secretary mcaleenan and others are vocal. they have been measured in their description of the border. they said our resources are stretched. it's creating a dangerous situation. that's credible. it won't matter who is in charge. it's becoming dangerous. >> martha: once you set foot over the border you can claim asylum and birth right citizen laws that say if you are born in this country, you are a united states citizen. i want to ask about this report, charlie, there is a suggestion from the white house or a desire on the part of the white house, this is what is being reported, to reinstate the separation of families and that was the showdown that caused this separation and the shake-up at dhs. do you think that's true? is that where they are headed?

>> i think the white house is determined to figure out how to address that situation. of course, the people that come across the border and all of the human smugglers and people that are selling drugs in the country, they understand our laws and the court rulings and the flores ruling. they are using our laws and our court rulings and all of that against us. so that's why we have this huge uptick of these people posing as families at the border. it's a very difficult situation. that tweet from elizabeth warren is dishonest as it is idiotic. it's a real problem. without a doubt, i interviewed the president last week in the oval office. this is something that he is more concerned about it now than the first time he ran for president. he is determined to fix it.

if he can't get democrats in congress to go along with this, he is happy to take it to the polls and take it to the people and let people vote on it. this is not a conservative thing or a radical thing. this is stopping human smuggling at the border. >> martha: chris hahn, every poll says people want immigration reform. they want the border to be secure. people are open to a pathway for the dreamers. the president said he was open to that. why can't democrats and republicans get together to solve this? >> i don't know why republicans didn't solve it when they had complete control of everything. >> martha: they didn't have the votes. >> elizabeth warren is right. that line will be the first thing people talk about when secretary kirstjen nielsen's obituary is written.

hold on, i didn't interrupt you, buddy. >> martha: don't call him, buddy. that's not appropriate. >> the president will do what he tells them to do. >> martha: the question is whether or not that policy will be reinstated. jim, the original intention of the policy was so no families would try to cross the border. they tried to cross the border and we have a situation that was untenable the separation of families. it encouraged people to come with kids even when they were not their own kids, because they would be able to get in. is that right, jim? >> yes, absolutely. people know they won't be arrested if they interest the

united states, that's not a deterrent. these kids are being trafficicked and kidnapped and brought to this country as pawns. so members of the organization can get into the united states. you will never see them again. they don't show up for deportion hearings. it's a dangerous situation for those children and the administration. people in homeland security were honest about mistakes were made. >> and the democrats have become the party of human smuggling and drug trade. >> no! you have no solutions. you just want to hurt people. the party of mean right now. >> martha: not buddy, his name is charlie. thanks, guys. coming up the "new york times" admitted a crisis moment in recycling. is it not working?

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with advil liqui-gels. >> ♪ >> martha: this story caught my eye. is it time to abandon recycling? a surprising piece in the "new york times" the other day shines new light on its economic burden. finding recycling companies are recooping lost profits by charging cities more, sometimes 4 times what they charged last year. cities and towns are making hard choices about whether to raise taxes, cut services or abandon an effort that took hold during the environmental movement of the 1970s. chris horner, thank you very much for being here tonight. why is recycling not working? what is the benefit analis?

>> first it was oversold. on the basis of solving a crisis that didn't exist. it was sold as having no tradeoffs. it was all up side until in practi practice, you find that it's environmentally counter-productive. in this case we are recycling, it's not so much the united states but mandatory recycling in europe led china to ban scrap material that ends up in rivers and flows into the ocean if you don't manage waste. in this case it was sold as economic. the only problem was how we were going to spend all of that extra money. it's much cheaper to use virgin materials. so we are sitting on enormous stockpiles of materials. >> martha: you not so much the united states as europe?

>> europe has extensive recycling requirements. washington has been kept out of a federal recycling requirement. it's left to the states. we manage our waste fairly well. we still export some to asia but no long tore china. -- longer to china. >> martha: china doesn't want to take it anymore. why not? >> we don't sort it well. it requires a lot of manpower. green jobs and we are sending it to poor countries that have less stringent requirements and it gets land filled and ends up in the river. >> martha: we send this stuff to china so they can't use because it's not getting sorted properly and it's dumped in the rivers? >> that's part of it. it's not well governed. we have strict environmental controls. there not so much.

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>> ♪ >> martha: new reports talking about the co called bro-mance between brett kavanaugh and john roberts. they have a friendship and are voting in unison since justice kavanaugh joining the court in october. my next guest said this at scalia's swearing in. >> the founding fathers were clear on this issue. the question involved and judicial restraint is not will we have liberal or conservative courts? they knew that the courts like the constitution itself must not be liberal or conservative. >> martha: here's christopher

scalia the youngest son of the late justice. thank you very much for being here. what drove you to put this book together? >> well, my father liked speaking to diverse audiences and talked about the law the most. he spoke well religion and his religious beliefs and the ideas that the founder his about the proper place of religion in public life. we knew he wanted to get those speeches out. after his passing, ed and i wanted to gather those speeches as well as some of the opinions he wrote on these issues and get them out into the public. >> martha: it's a very inspiring book. i recommend that people of all faiths pick it up. it talks about the integration between faith and our founding

fathers. i wonder what your father would have thought between justice department and the alliance with justice roberts. >> i am not sure. it's too soon to tell how that will play out. they are both very good justices. i know conservatives have frustrations with justice roberts over the obamacare case. but he's been a very good chief justice. i expect the same from justice kavanaugh. we are not working with a lot of material. people are jumping to conclusions. >> martha: it's lifelong. a lot of time to dig in. this is what your father said about trading. the whole thing about the obamacare decision and whether or not there was any back-room deals done on that. let's listen. >> i can't trade.

i like to argue. it's one reason i like the law, i think. i like to figure out where the truth lies. >> martha: your reaction? >> that's about right. my father really liked argument. he liked debate. he saw that as a way of getting closer to the truth. as far as his approach to the law, he thought that you could not really be a moderate justice because that just meant you were not close enough to interpreting the law, you were making a compromise. his approach was more disciplined than that. >> martha: i head about the time he spent at saint mary's and what a fervent prayer he was. we have the pope appointing a

new archbishop. what would your dad think about the scandal? >> he would be disturbed i don't think it would shake his faith. he believed in the gospel and christ and the church and understood that bishops make mistakes and often terrible ones. that's not a statement against the truth of what the church taught. >> martha: that's the struggle for a lot of cat licks. -- catholics. >> he is a deep and profound faith. he understood the long history of the church. his faith was strong for many reasons. the tradition and beauty of the church and the clarity of its teachings. he understood that bishops were human. even popes make mistakes. he understand that the faith was

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>> ♪ . >> martha: tonight some are reminded of 2013 when the irs official admitted they were targeting to conservative groups. republicans say this weaponization of the irs is happening again. i spoke to senator which you believing. -- chuck grassley. do you think there is a weaponization in the request? >> absolutely. lbj, nixon, used the irs against their political enemies. that's why in 1976 we passed a

law saying your tax returns are private. you can't show them to anybody else. i see this as an illegitimate use of the tax returns. it's very legitimate to use them for legislative purposes. i have sometimes seen people tax returns with the name redacted so you don't know who it is, but in the pursuit of closing a loop hole or something like that. you need information to write legislation. this is not what the house is about. this is about politicizing trump and going after him. that's entirely wrong. it's a misuse of congressional oversight and a misuse of the chairman. i am a chairman that can ask for it. >> martha: what do you say to those who say every president going back to nixon released their tax returns?

the president said in the 2016 election cycle he will and then he would not. if the irs has been auditing him for all of these years. there are conclusions can you draw from that. apparently they have not found anything or they would have gone after him? >> well, of course. it's voluntary. that's his decision. this was an issue in the election of 2016. it doesn't keep him from being elected because he didn't release his tax returns. he hasn't done it since. he said when they are released, he wants it to be fully audited so he knows the tax that he files are right or wrong. consequently, it's up to him. but you can't use the power of being chairman of a committee --

i don't feel i can -- to politicize the way nixon did to go after political enemies. they consider trump a political enemy. >> martha: a letter you sent to the attorney general william barr about concerns you had over emails that were part of the mueller investigation. what are your concerns with people who were investigated? what are you hoping you will learn through this process of this letter to bill barr? >> here's where weer that. i gave a speak -- on the senate floor. it deals with people going after the mueller report and wanting to see it fully. in a non-redacted version. they seem to be religiously pursuing that. at the same time, a lot of us have been pursuing things that ought to be investigated that

were similar preassumed violations of laws. if you want to investigate something, and doesn't apply to political interference in the justice department and the cia -- >> martha: you want to investigate the origins of the investigation and make sure that's also happening when there is a request for full disclosure? it seems both sides just want what they are interested in. both sides should have transp transparen transparency. the changes today at dhs and do you think it's right that kirstjen nielsen the head of homeland security is now moving on? >> i am surprised that concerning what the president said last october and november about her, about ready to fire

her. everything seemed to have gone smoothly since then. i am very surprised. the president has a right to have whoever he wants. the acting person is well qualified. i am worried about what i have seen further down in the immigration service. i know the director and know his policy director there. the policy director cathy worked for me for 17 years. he was on my staff for 3 years working with cathy. they are now the policy people down there that give a policy basis for the policies that the president wants in immigration. it would be a real mistake if they go that far down into the bureaucracy to fire good people

like that, that i worked with for 17 years. >> martha: thank you very much. good to see you. that's the "story" on this monday april 8th. the story goes on tomorrow night. see is you here. >> ♪ >> ♪ >> tucker: welcome to "tucker carlson tonight." homeland security secretary kirstjen nielsen submitted her resignation over the weekend. she seemed like a nice person. she was on this show last week but it's possible she was never a good fit for the job she had. deportations were lower than under barack obama. the border went from troubled to out of control. there are more than 100,000 illegals showing up from mexico