tv The O Reilly Factor FOX News June 25, 2011 5:00am-6:00am EDT
bachmann and jon kyl who walked out of the debt talks this week. keep it here on fox where more news is always on the way. here is o'reilly. >> juan: "the o'reilly factor" is on. tonight. >> i was -- i was very angry at my mom. i was also angry at my sister. >> do you know what that photograph is of, mrs. anthony? >> yes. >> emotions run high at the trial of alleged child killer casey anthony geraldo rivera was there and he will be here with a report. >> i need all of a sudden of you to knock on doors and make phone calls and if we do then i promise you that there is nothing that will stop us. >> president obama says he is unstoppable in 2012.
carl rove says he will not be reelected. mr. rove will be here. >> there is substantial evidence that some of these fires were caused by people who have crossed our border illegally. >> john mccain is taking heat from immigration activists after saying illegal immigrants are responsible for some wildfires on the southern border. >> juan: caution, you are about to enter the no spin zone. the factor begins right now. captions by closed captioning services >> juan: hi, i'm juan williams in for bill o'reilly. thanks for watching us tonight. let's get right to our top story. perhaps, the most emotional day yet in the casey anthony trial the defense asked member about a family photo.
do you know what that photograph is of, mrs. anthony? >> yes. would you like to take a break? do you need a break? >> no. i'm okay. >> you can tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what that is? >> it's a picture of caylee walking up the ladder and i'm behind her holding her. >> juan: there were tears from casey brother's lee when he described his frustration with his mom and sister for keeping him out of the loop during casey's pregnancy and caylee's birth. >> mr. anthony, could you you tell us why you were were angry and who you were angry with as to why you didn't go and see caylee and casey at the hospital. >> i'm sorry. >> i was very angry at my mom and i was also angry at my sister.
i mean, i was just angry at everyone in general that they didn't want to include me. >> geraldo rivera was in the court today. he joins from orlando. geraldo, you also had lunch with the defense attorney mr. baez. you talked to the judge. take us behind the scenes and give us an update at what's happening at the trial. >> will do juan. first of all, what i learned in my lunch with jose baez and the defense team, did i have the conversations with the judge amend the prosecutor as well. specifically i on what baez told me he is extremely frustrated that the judge has been limiting him, juan, in terms of the witnesses that he can present. and also the lines of questioning that he can pursue. he wants, for example, whatever you think of his opening argument. you may think it was caulk maimy, farfetched.
allowing her daughter die by accident in the swimming pool then behaved in the bizarre and despicable matter going to the hot body contest. he wants to establish he was so battered down by years of sexual and physical abuse by her brother and by her father that, you know, she couldn't behave rationally. that was the behavior of someone who is in that kind of post-traumatic state. but as he tried to ask baez tried to ask the dad george anthony did you and your wife have marital problems around the time your beloved granddaughter went missing, there was an objection. the judge sustained the objection. prevented jose from pursuing that line of scweg what's happening is you have a defense trying to explain away this 31 days clearly whether the child died by accidental drowning or was murdered by her and then did the disco tour here in orlando, he is having a hard time doing
that does not appear he is able to do it. the jury have have to draw own inferences from the family on the witness stand. the brother the clip you showed of lee anthony. why was this brother so emotional about hearing that his 19-year-old sister was pregnant out of wedlock? it just -- it seems that reaction doesn't seem like a normal sibling kind of thing it seems more like a dad's reaction to a daughter or maybe something else. >> juan: hold on, hold on, geraldo. you just unloaded dynamite. you know the allegation is that, in fact, he may be the father. this brother may be the sister -- the father of the child. >> i think, juan, that's where he was going. even though the d.n.a. test proved that lee anthony, the brother, is not the father of the child. is he -- he wanted that jury to
know those parents feared lee anthony was the father of that child. that's why they didn't want him involved in the baby's birth. that's where he was going. the judge stopped it legal expert to determine whether or not -- >> juan: quickly, heard, the suggestion is that she was so beaten down, in such a dysfunctional family, suffering from abuse by the father for possibly abuse by the brother that she has no free will that she really doesn't know what she is doing. and that she may have committed this crime out of her mind? does that get her off the hook for first degree murder? >> well, i think that -- excellent question. i believe that this never should have been a first degree murder case. you don't go for the death penalty against mothers in this situation. three to five american children are killed by their parents every day. it never should have been a murder one. i think that. >> did you say three to five kids are killed by their parents every day?
>> every day in this country, juan. every day in this country. a thousand american children a year are killed by their parents or by the boyfriend of the mother or by a stepparent. that's the fact. those dangerous person american children off in their own people that should love them most. that's a fact of life. this d.a. went for this death penalty for purely political reasons. i think that what is interesting here. the bigger picture is that if you remember the prosecution case, when you first saw cindy anthony. the most sympathetic figure grandma. poor grandma in the court. even when you saw george anthony attacked by jose baez as he was, a sympathetic character, the prosecution treating them with tender, love, and care. now if you see the prosecution's attitude toward the anthony family lee, cindy or george, they are aggressive. they are treating them like they are liars. they are treating them like they are trying to cover up for casey anthony.
it is an interesting dynamic. i'm very curious how this jury is reacting to all of this. >> juan: you are in the courtroom. i was going to ask you specifically about the mother's claim that she was the one who was ordering chloroform over the internet. did the jury react like this is possibly true or did they react like, you know what? it's not only that casey anthony seems to be a psychotic liar. it's the whole family seems to be a bunch of liars. and they are lying to cover up now for casey. >> it wouldn't be the first time that parent or grandparent lied to cover up for their child or grandchild. i totally agree with you, juan. i spoke, i mentioned, to cindy and george anthony today. and i held cindy's hand and i said "i'm so sorry for what you are going through. she looked at me in a way that was so heart-breaking. it was really like oh my god. look at this situation. i don't want to put words in her mouth. but she was a very very sympathetic character. i remember the last time i talked to grandma, i asked her who the baby's father was and
she almost bit my head off. so, you know, what is this? i also believe that this judge, i think that melvin perry is doing his best. >> juan: you don't think he is doing a very good job. >> i think is he being extremely pro-prosecution. >> juan: okay. >> this woman is on trial for her life. they should have given -- he should have given the defense more latitude. let the jury reject it let the jury say oh, it's bogus. there is no way that happened. this is a selfish, narcissist, self involved brat who killed her child so she could go -- >> juan: one last question, geraldo. just as a dad. you are a dad, is there ever going to be any justice in this case for that little girl? >> you you know, juan, i'm a father of five. every time i think of this child, i think of my, particularly the last three of my children all daughters and i want to cry. >> yeah. i want justice for this child desperately. i also want justice for casey
anthony. and i also want justice for the american legal system, fair is fair. they never should have gone to try to hang this woman. what they're doing, i think, is making a political statement. i think it was very wrong. i believe she will be convicted, but of a lesser charge. and i believe the conviction will be overthrown on appeal. >> juan: wow. geraldo. thank you so much. hang in there we will will have more on the casey anthony trial later in this program. directly ahead, carl rove has a bold prediction on the 2012 election. he will be right here to tell us what it is. and then intel from the bin laden raid may prove he was getting help from the pakistani government. that's right. details on that upcoming.
needs all hands on deck to help him keep the white house. >> i need all of you to knock on doors and make phone calls and send emails. [cheers] >> do whatever it is that you need to do because we are going to need the same energy and the same passion and the same engagement and if we do, then i promise you, there is nothing that will stop us and we will get done everything that we promised we would get done. >> now obviously the republicans want the president out. carl rove is convince they'd will not be reelected. carl rove joins us now. the architect, the genius, the brains. thank you for coming in. >> that sounds like a set-up, juan. >> juan: you are welcome here. i had issues with the column you wrote yesterday in the "wall street journal." >> i'm shocked that you would have issues. >> juan: lay it out for everybody to hear what's your case why obama will not be eelected.
>> the economy bad. 9.1 unemployment. no president has ever been reelected with 7.2% or higher. the federal reserve and private economists all project that the economy next year is going to be anemic and unemployment is going to be about 8% or higher on election day. it's going to be tough for the president to do particularly after raising expectations. this has led to a second problem with him. he has enormous problems with groups that are critical to his re-election. not simply liberal bloggers at the net roots conference. if you consider the drop job approval rating from the inaugural has dropped 25 points among whites, 24 points among older voters, 23 points among independent voters. he has lost a third of his support there. young voters, 22 points. as you herd heard in that clip: not going to be there. if, for example, african-american turnout is 1. less.
his margin is cut 2 and a half times over. >> here is the thing, carl. who beats him you? need something to beat something. candidates up there right now joz any one of them that can beat president obama. >> polls against romney. is he losing against then nark republicans. against generic unnamed republican. the president and, look, these polls, i grant you, don't mean a lot right now. the underlying firmament is not good for the president. he has two more problems quickly besides groups. he has very unpopular policies. handling of the economy is 37%. handling of the deficit is 27%. the affordable care act health care reform bill is supported by only 38% of americans. 59% disprove of his handling of the deficit. 56% of the economy. those numbers are not going to change as far as the economy and the deficit -- >> juan: numbers are deceptive because they include people who think there should have been a public option on health care they wish he had done more.
>> you know what? they are not deceptive. they are real. and i hope every democrat follows your tune and believes that they are deceptive. >> juan: some of them are deceptive. people expected much more of him. the question i had for you though i want to get back to is beat obama with, what? here is a full screen. it's going to show you obama matched up against romney, against pawlenty. against all of them. republican. not one of them can beat president obama. >> he is the incumbent president of the united states. is he 45% against a generic republican in one poll 5% of in the republican primary he gets to 50% romney flipped it's 48% 46 romney. and i repeat. he is the president. he ought to have a bigger lead right now than he does.
romney's whose name awareness is less than his. who knows tim pawlenty outside of the state of minnesota. not a lot of a heck of a lot of people. >> juan: doesn't matter. >> it matters if you can't get above 50%. he can't get above 50% against people whom nobody knows. trust me, juan. in i was sitting here and saying a republican president was getting 50% against no named democrats, i would say -- i would be worried if i was sitting in the west wing. >> juan: let me say to you i would be worried if i was setting on the republican side and i said as you seem to be indicating look at mitt romney he is the closest of any of these republicans he can beat president obama. look at mitt romney. >> with all due respect, you are distorting what i said. i was pointing in a public poll mitt romney is beating -- >> juan: i don't know what poll that. >> i hate to say it. >> "the washington post"-abc. >> juan: that was a while back. >> two weeks ago, juan. please, keep your facts
straight. >> juan: your poll is good. >> 10 days ago. what's the difference between 10 days and two weeks. >> juan: are you backing romney by the way. >> no, i'm not. i'm not backing anybody. here is my point. it's early in the republican primary process. we don't know who the nominee is going to be. >> juan: it's early for president obama and he has the pulpit. the economy could get better. >> it could. >> juan: gas prices have been going down. >> 10 cents a gallon. >> 21 cents in the last two weeks. >> the price of gasoline is twice what it was when he came in office. are you going to sit there with a straight face and tell me that you think the economy next year is going to be going and blowing and millions of people with jobs? because, if you are, you are the only person in america who thinks that the federal reserve this week dropped its forecast for growth and jobs next year. >> juan: correct. >> this week the blue chip forecast dropped its estimates for growth this year. you know what the administration is thinking? that we're going to have growth next year of 4.5%. and the federal reserve is saying we're going to have 3% or
less. >> juan: here is what -- let me tell you. >> let's have a bet right now, juan, who is going to be -- you take the administration's estimate for economic growth and i will take federal reserve's. >> juan: is the economy getting better and they say no, no no and you ask about personal finances and they say yes. >> 48% think that the economy is going to be in a great depression. i'm setting the record straight i know it's painful for you. >> juan: i'm just saying don't get overly optimistic. >> i'm not. >> juan: because what you are doing is saying this guy can't win and he may surprise you. >> i wish you would read my columns. i said he is likely to lose. i didn't say he will lose. i said is he likely to lose. let me read you. >> juan: wait. we only have 30 seconds, karl. >> objective circumstances like a weak economy and bad decisions not only matter they become nearly dispositive. mr. obama is policies he set in
motion. he is not done yet but it will be tough to recover. >> juan: carl, how do you recover if you are mitt romney and health care. how do you recover if you are tim pawlenty and nobody knows you. how do you recover if you are michele bachmann and everybody thinks you extremist. >> the presidential campaign cream rises to the top. obscure senator from illinois who did diddly squat in the senate become the nominee of the democratic party and become president of the united states by running a good campaign in the primary. >> juan: he won't let me talk. i love him and respect him and i don't want you disappointed but i'm afraid you may be setting yourself up. thanks so much for joining us. a new report may prove that usama bin laden was getting help from the pakistani government. can we trust that country? straight ahead. ♪ [ engine revving ] [ male annncer ] 125 years ago... we invented the automobile.
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>> juan: in the factor follow up segment tonight, a new research pool by pew suggests that the people of pakistan are quiet sympathetic to usama bin laden. killed bin laden 63% disprove. when asked if it's a good or bad thing that bin laden is dead. 55% say this is unbelievable. they say it's a bad thing. only 14% think it's good. also, a new report out today may show a link between bin laden's personal courier and a radical group with very close ties to pakistan's version of the cia. so, does this prove that the park establish group was in bed with bin laden. joining us have anthony shaffer a spokesman for the center for the advanced defense studies and dr. michael scheuer, the former head of the cia's bin laden unit and author of the book "osama
bin laden." michael scheuer, let me start with you and let me ask what do you make of the idea that this cell phone that belonged to the courier was also then linked to the pakistani intelligence agency? >> well, i think, juan, it was linked to the harr cot group, which is in turn linked to isi. this is not, i don't think it should be a surprise to anyone, usama bin laden worked very closely with the haracot during the war with the soviets since then. and so it's a natural enough connection. i'm not very surprised by the fact we have uncovered evidence of that. >> juan: do you take it as a smoking gun? does it indicate to you, in fact, pakistan not only knew he was there? they were protecting him? >> well, i don't think we can go that far yet, but it wouldn't surprise me that some parts of the pakistani government knew he was there. and were protecting him, juan. it was never, since the day of 9/11 in the interest of the
pakistanis to capture, kill, or turn over usama bin laden to the united states. and certainly any adults in the u.s. government probably should have known that since 9/11. >> juan: lt. colonel shaffer, what is your take on this? do you see it as a smoking gun in terms of making the case that the pakistanis not only knew he was there but they were protecting him? >> absolutely. in my judgment, based on my own book operation dark heart we talk about the tipping point and the fact that i knew and the folks i dealt with. in 2003, knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was collusion and many aspects between the isi and these radical elements. now the problem here, juan, is that we have been ignoring the fact that the pakistanis continue to act on their own self-interests as michael just pointed out, they are doing what they think is best for their country. we try to do a number of things, try to con joel them and give them money. this is the sad truth. they have used these radical networks for their own purposes. this very group has been used in
the kashmiry conflict and they use these groups as a proxy for their isi and for their own army. this is part of how they do business. >> juan: let me ask you this, colonel shaffer, i'm drawing connections between the dots. if i understand you, you are saying you do take it as a smoking gun. >> die. >> juan: to connect bin laden to the pakistani intelligence. let me continue with the dots. can i then draw a line that would connect the pakistani government somehow to the taliban and to al qaeda? >> i have heard rumors since three days after the raid that we have got a lot more than we are talking about with that said i think the government released this today to put some pressure on the pakistanis based on the fact that president obama said in his own speech a couple days ago he is putting pressure on them. this release today was part of that pressure. i think, juan, frankly there is a lot more we already know. we are just not talking about it with that said, i think the pakistanis have been given a number of opportunities -- i
don't think they are going to be asked to come clean. they are going to be asked to start playing a more concerted roll. we have dr. zawahiri new leader of al qaeda running around. puts pressure on the pakistanis to come up with. >> juan: dr. scheuer, you were more hesitant in making these connections but you just heard what i said. would you connect now the pakistani government to al qaeda and the taliban in terms of the ongoing difficulty the u.s. has had in dealing with the pakistanis in terms of just getting out, getting out some kind of aggressive handling of the al qaeda and taliban elements in not only pakistan but in afghanistan? >> certainly the pakistanis support the afghan taliban. they want the afghan taliban back in power. we have known that for a decade, juan. you know, the problem we have here is we're watching something occur that we knew was going to occur and, yet, we put u.s.
security at risk by depending on the pack establishes to do things that we should have done for ourselves. >> absolutely. >> at the end of the day, this problem is a problem of adulthood. there is nothing that came out today that is a surprise to anyone in the intelligence community but the last two presidents have subcontracted united states security to general musharraf first and now the biggest crook in pakistani history general is a dari. and to expect anything more from the pakistanis after the president on wednesday night basically surrendered, in terms of our future in afghanistan. i think is a pipe dream. >> juan: gentlemen, i want to say thank you. this is ongoing story. the factor is going to stick with it. people want to know seriously whether or not we are wasting money and trying to do business with the pakistanis. thanks very much, gentlemen. >> thank you. >> thank you, sir. >> juan: plenty more ahead as the factor moves along this
>> juan: in the unresolved problem segment tonight, arizona senator john mccain has ticked off immigration activists by tieing some of the recent wildfires to illegals. >> we are concerned about particularly areas down on the border where there is substantial evidence that some of these fires are caused by people who have crossed our border illegally. >> the sheriff gives mccain some backup. he thinks illegals may be responsible for a fire earlier this very week. >> the bottom line is there was nobody in the park would have been there legally there were no
vehicles, no nothing. it's a high intensity drug trafficking and human smuggling area. we have scouts that hang out there all the time. they light signal fires. they light warming fires. it gets cold at night. >> juan: not everybody is convinced. bill o'reilly spoke with an immigration activists who disagrees with senator mccain and sheriff dever. >> bill: the cocine sheriff pretty explicit what he thinks happened down there that because illegal aliens do light fires and things like that as signals, he has put together a thesis, working thesis that they were responsible or cousin for these terrible fires that have racked arizona. what's your beef with that analysis? >> well, it could have been. i mean, investigation. look what happened when senator mccain's comments about having substantial evidence. he went from being senator
mccain to being senator mcblame. ended one fire and try to start another fire by these comments. the same sheriff a year ago when a ranch by robert krantz was murdered had the same thing said it was done by border crosser undocumented immigrant yet to be proven true. i'm tired of the sheriff's theories. we need facts and professionals who can do an investigation who started these fires. >> bill: you might have a point on senator mccain. he is a politician and obviously looking for more help to keep people from crossing into arizona from new mexico. he has got a political agenda. there is no doubt about it. but the sheriff, the sheriff says flat out that nobody down there, okay? you can't get in there. it's too remote. we have people that monitor this. there was nobody there. so it had to be caused by somebody who was there illegally and that's what we're working on. now, it seems to me as a responsible citizen, that you would say okay, i'm going to give the sheriff the benefit of
the doubt. >> well, that's fine. i mean, he has a track record of making judgments prior without having the facts. for us, what's the rush to judgment? we should be more concerned about the people who are suffering from this fire putting out the fire. rather than making claims -- >> bill: putting out the fire. they are also concerned about the intrusion of illegal aliens coming across into arizona and causing all kinds of situations. see, look,. >> let me ask you, this what are they going to blame it on next? >> bill: it's a matter of. >> go ahead. >> bill: you have got a problem in arizona. it's a documented problem. law enforcement is under siege. you know it. i know it everybody else knows it but then when a sheriff gets out and says, look, here is another example of why we have to shut it border down, you object. now, you don't want the border shut down though, mr. parraz. you don't want it shut down. >> i don't object at all. i'm former candidate for u.s. senate. i have never advocated for open border. i always thought we should have
a secure border. i never took that position. >> bill: what does a secure border in your mind mean? you want to put a fence up there and the national guard to back the fence? do you want to do that. >> no. absolutely not. this is what senator mccain is pushing for. he needs to define it. >> bill: how do you define it? you are the guest here and you are raising a beef about the sheriff's analysis. how do you want to secure the border? >> i think the border is a long way of being secure. i talked to border sheriffs. >> bill: no. all the border sheriffs say it isn't secure. every one of them says so. >> that's an actual lie. >> bill: only guy on your guy is doug nic and is he not a border guy you. >> the sheriff -- actually says crime has gone down. when you ask him what's been the most crime reported petty theft and domestic violence. you don't want to hear that all you want to hear is about crack down on the border. we have paid professionals with the federal government working that all right border agent for every eight miles.
how many do you want? at what point is there oversaturation. >> bill: believes it's not under control take their word for it. all right. look. you put forward your beef. i don't think it's a legitimate beef. i'm going to go with the sheriff of cochise county. >> same sheriff who a rancher was murdered he claimed to be illegal immigrant. you go on and keep on doing that that makes a lot of sense. >> bill: thanks for coming on. we appreciate it for all you pad users new application for the ipad and iphone. you can watch streaming video of the casey anthony trial live. for more information go to www.foxnews.com/ipad. coming up next, lou dobbs will be here with advice for president obama and how to save the american economy. also, we'll continue our coverage of one of the most emotional days yet in the trial
>> juan: thanks for staying with us. i'm juan williams in for bill o'reilly. unresolved segment tonight, another bad week for president obama's economy. 429,000 americans file for unemployment. some analysts see the administration's decision to release 30 million barrels of oil from the strategic reserve as a sign of desperation. here with us prescription to fix the economy fox business anchor lou dobbs. you can watch lou at 7:00 p.m. on the fox business network. lou, you are my ben bernanke. you are my tim geithner. you walk into the oval office. walk do you say to president obama i say in terms of energy we are the wealth years on
earth. en this planet and start exploiting and reducing those energy reserves. think should be a matter of national urgency. there should be urgency on the part of republicans and democrats alike. this president immense opportunity to lead. he could do so if he could put aside his ideological hesitation and understand that nothing is more critical than providing jobs in this economy. new sense of confidence and direction in this country so this great free capitalist economy can be creating those jobs by the millions as it has over the course of time. >> juan: are you saying drill baby drill? >> oh being look. hell of a lot more than that i am saying drill. i am saying mine, exploit and produce. we have so many rich deposits of fossil fuels. so many technologies to bring to bear. so many jobs that would be created with the infrastructure
necessary to achieve that energy independence. that it is mindless. it is self-destructive for this nation not to pursue that goal. >> juan: now, you know that when the government looks at this and says if we did everything, all this kind of drilling, it really wouldn't change all that much because oil is a global market in a global marketplace. other people would react reduce the flow in order to compensate for it prices might not go down that much. you are saying it would produce jobs. >> produce jobs. it would create wealth. and, if we're capitalists as we are, why should we not want there to be a market reaction around the world? we want -- because light now we are the ones being reactive, juan. we are the ones stymied in this country. our leadership seems clueless what to do. at a time when we need strong and positive leadership from both parties but certainly this president. this is an urgent mission that we could accomplish and we should be undertaking it now. >> juan: you see that he is about green jobs. is he all about trying to create
new kinds of batteries. new kinds of energy. what do you say? >> i say great. but that should not be to the exclusion of exploiting the resources that are so readily available. that require energy to create. the idea that we can say green jobs and put aside that that we're the wealthiest nation in terms of energy reserve and we should not -- and we should spend $2 billion to become brazil's best customer, continue a transfer of a trillion and a half dollars to the middle east, this is mindless. >> juan: i agree. especially the middle east. i just don't think that the american want to continue dependency on middle eastern oil. it's mad and it screws up our foreign policy to no end. >> screws up our foreign policy. i'm not sure which is the -- this foreign policy that we are following right now is a shambles. it is mind also as now.
we need to reconstruct. a great place to begin is by reconstituting our leadership. >> juan: very quickly, lou, when it comes to the debt reduction talks, the president says he is now going to meet separately with mitch mcconnell the republican leader in the senate as well as with harry reid the senate minority leader the democrats' leader. so far the republicans are saying no to any kind of tax increase including closing tax loopholes. so what kind of deal is possible here? >> there are a number of deals possible. but the first thing we have to find some serious adults who want to make something happen. what has to happen is we have to roll back the scale of government itself. we're not going to be able to do much on the immediate horizon of deficits. we are looking at 1.65 trillion this current fiscal year. but that -- that in the next year -- there should be a target of about half of that we should be looking toward reducing this deficit significantly within certainly the next five to 10 years. and if these two political parties can't come together on
that idea, then we're in very difficult trouble. i believe that we're seeing more political theater here. >> juan: i think you are right. >> up until august 2nd we are anyway. >> juan: august 2nd. bill clinton thinks of course debt reduction will help us in terms of producing jobs. bill clinton also thinks that we should use some of the money that's come back from tarp to get the banks, help the banks send more loans out to businesses. >> that's all well and good. its accomplished its purpose and i appreciate the former president's view. this is time to restore confidence to the american people. that is desperately needed. we need business leaders standing up saying we are committed to a free enterprise capitalist economy. we are going to start investing in our future even though we don't have assurances and guarantees. suddenly ceos in this country have to have guarantees before they start investing? that isn't the way a capitalist system works.
>> juan: in the back of the book segment tonight, today's developments in the murder trial of casey anthony. does her defense team have a chance of convincing the jury that she did not kill her 2-year-old daughter caylee? with us now two attorneys who have been following the case intensely. mark, a criminal defense attorney who is in miami and joey jackson, a former prosecutor. he joins us here in new york.
mark, let me begin with you and ask, why do you think the defense is doing well? i have seen that you said you think that -- the defense, in fact, will prevail in this case. >> let's just say this. there is the personal side of me and then there is the legal side. personally i don't believe most of what they are putting forth. obviously she played a role in her daughter's tragic death. legally, however, i have been watching this trial for three years. the defense is doing a competent job, especially this week in advancing some key points. first, cindy anthony. i mean, obviously, a woman whose memory gets better for age per her own admission like wine. i found that to be unbelievably incredible. the jury, however, if they credit her testimony now, they are going to believe that she is the one who performed the chloroform choices there goes murder one, there is your premeditation. she also said some other things today about her own granddaughter climbing up the ladder to get into the pool. she helped her learn how to do that setting up the defense that this was an accidental drowning.
they made some major points this week, like it or not. >> juan: joey jackson here. joey, you say the defense is grasping at straws and you don't think they are making any progress whatsoever? >> 100%, juan, listen. when you are a defense team and do you this, you have to do what they are doing which is try to create reasonable doubt. were they successful in doing it grasping at straws. no one going to make the assessment that cindy anthony is being credible. she is saving her daughter and going to say what she needs to say to protect her. you are going to take you left work having left work when you worked there and say i left work at 2:00 in the afternoon so i could perform chloroform searches. who does that? no one is the answer to the question. the fact that the jury is going to discredit that, it will not be deemed credible by the jury and she will be convicted. that is her daughter will be convicted. >> juan: let me say to you, joey, that the judge in the case has said to the defense, that jose baez, who is the defense
attorney, he said he is a little confused as to what the defense theory is because initially the defense theory was the child died in the pool, was not suffocated. but the judge seems to be incaghtd from defense do you think that is a problem does that have an influence on the jury's perception. >> it absolutely does. when you start as a defense attorney and indicating to the jury what your theory is going to be, it has to be cogent. a book, a middle, beginning, and end. when you come up with a wild theory as the defense did initially. george abused me. lee abused her. she didn't know. she is not responsible for her conduct, then during the trial you come up with different theories and defenses, it's not credible, it's not relevant. the jury will reject it. >> juan: mark, get back in here. >> i do not disagree with the joey that the defense blew it in being so detailed in opening that was a rookie move made by a rookie lawyer. however, here is the question i have for joey and everyone who has been following this trial. how has the prosecution after they rested their case proven the cause of death, when it happened, how it happened.
my facebook page daily gets probably 30 different versions of how people think -- people have been following this trial. >> i will be very glad to answer that. >> go ahead and tell us because we don't know how this happened yet, joey. >> the point is the prosecution has been very consistent in their view of this. what they have been saying from the outset. >> answer the question, joey. >> i am answering the question. >> how did it happen, joey. >> let me answer the question. >> chloroform done it the duct tape was over her in order to get her to die. that's depremeditation. who juan do you know of who is a parent loving respectful emotional who is going to go out partying right after. getting a tattoo, shopping for lingerie. doing things completely inconsistent what a caring mother would do. >> juan: it looks terrible. go back to what mark was saying. the prosecution's theory is she was sufficient indicated. the tape over the mouth. the chloroform. has that been proven? >> yes. >> juan: wait. tell me how do they prove that. >> how they prove it is they not
only established it through expert testimony with regard to the level of chloroform, with the regard to the duct tape with regard to all the medical evidence, the odor in the trunk. the testing of the odor. the human decomposition banding on the hair. not only have they done that, juan, they have established circumstantially a conduct of course of guilt only done by a person who was cold and calculating as she was. that's how she would be convicted of the death penalty. she is done. >> juan: let me ask you quickly, mark, you have this case looking like they are approaching trying to wrap it up before the fourth of july. that will open the door then i guess for some more defense. do you see this case is going to come to an end very quickly now? >> absolutely not. the prosecution will and absolutely must present a large, significant rebuttal case to go after and i hope cindy is one of them, the defense witnesses who laid out a number of points that helped the defense in this case. we must see a strong state's
rebuttal case. >> juan: you are talking about the chloroform? >> i'm talking about her alleging that she did the searches. i'm talking about a lot of stuff that the defense put forth including the alleged shoddy autopsy done by the state's witness. defense witness said it was shoddy. >> juan: autopsy doesn't speak to guild or innocence but the chloroform might if the jury believes the mother is credible. joey says nobody believes that the mother behaved in that way and actually looking for chloroform to kill a dog that was eating some plants. >> juan, saying it so doesn't make it so. joey knows and i know as a veteran trial lawyer. you never know what's in the mind of those 12 people. personally i hope he is right but legally you never know. you do never know but there comes a point in time that things has to pass the laugh test. you know what that is they etch too us that in law school. people say it and can't pull themselves together, they laugh
about it, then you know it's something that's not credible, not believable. this defense is absolutely grasping that. >> juan: juan, one last thing do you think it's possible that the prosecution would say the defense has failed we're not going to have to rebutt, let's go to the jury? >> that would be suicide. they would never be that arrogant and get me tell you they have enough to throw up there to rebut the defense's argument. they will not do it? >> one quick thing i do agree with mark that there will be a rebuttal case. i disagree it will be long. i don't think you want to lose the jury. you want to put powerful points on if you are the prosecution to rebut major themes, call it a day. get your conviction and have justice served in this case. >> juan: mark, joey, thank you very gentlemen. you guys are good. straight ahead is tom hanks a pinhead or patriot for fancy dance moves in the people have voted. results next.
>> you may remember that bill showed you this clip last night. (inaudible). >> well, the poll results are in. 31 percent think he is a patriot for showing off the dancing skills. and 69 percent think the display was "pinheaded," and a couple of notes, the navy seals bin laden t-shirt selling fast, so, if you want to look sharp, check them out and if you get a brenham membership we will send you a navy seals shirt, for free and don't forget the red hot bill