tv Taiwan Outlook PBS September 16, 2013 7:00pm-8:01pm PDT
>> hello and welcome. the debate and rwanda. growth and stability nearly two decades after genocide. but at what price? on the day of legislative elections. paul kagamé is sure to win. the fighting in neighboring congo. and abuses at home has the west wavering on generous aid to a nation that bills itself as a future at the singapore of
africa. we begin in the newsroom where we are finding -- following several burger king stores. google straight to -- will go straight to claire. -- following several breaking stores. >> it is said that sarin gas was used. several people killed in a shooting at the washington navy yard. our correspondent who was at the scene. a massive and complex operation is underway to pull the cause of concordia operates. it has been lifted free of rock but no sign of two bodies officials have not located. first to the you and -- un. the findings of weapons
inspectors was spent a few days in syria last month. the highly anticipated report was headed -- handed over. they found convincing evidence that sarin gas was used. for more on this, i am joined by our international affairs editor douglas. do you think of this report will really make a difference? but probably very little and the reason i say this is because we have been expecting this report and most people generally know what this report is going to say and we know what is not going to say will stop it was meant to the inspectors to determine whether or not chemical weapons were used. which was were used. what it was not going to say was that were not there to blame. whether it was rebels or the assad regime. what has been happening in the context around this report is it comes after the deal was struck on saturday to get assad to disarm his chemical arsenal. a lot of diplomacy to craft a
tough u.n. resolution to enforce that the deal. the west would like it to be as tough as possible and include the threat of military force. chapter seven. russia has almost said explicitly that military force would be a nonstarter i could write the piece talk. -- and could wreck the peace talk. if the western powers, i am talking about the u.s., france and britain are hoping it will bring more pressure on those in the security council to craft a very tougher resolution. they will probably be disappointed. chances are at this point its side knows really weren't they have drawn the line. and their so-called redlines with a resolution are. regardless of what is said, no matter how tough, and in the direction of assad, it will say, to change russia's mind and say
in that case, we'll pass a resolution that authorizes military force. there's a lot of diplomatic new wants. a week ago, this report may have brought more to their. now that we have is deal between russia and the u.s. him a lot of other factors entering and behind the scenes diplomacy. my guess would be this report might use harsh language but is not to believe going to budge the lines in the u.n. security which has been divided up until now. it does not like the issues will go away anytime soon. >> thank you very much. as the security council is breached, world powers are trying to hammer out a resolution. foreign ministers have called for a strong web. after talks in paris, john kerry said should diplomacy fail the military option is on the table. this after the deal between the u.s. and russia.
mapping out a framework for damascus to hand over their weapons. >> the first stop is paris. a mutant with the french president. -- a meeting with the french president. diplomats put on a front to set in stone and plan to disarm chemical weapons from syria. >> in the coming days, we hope to tame the united nations a strong resolution which will enforce the rule of the council's authority, chemical disarmament plan. >> will force the syrian government to submit a list of chemical weapons and destroy them by the middle of next year. paris, london, and wash and will look to pass a resolution and vocal chapter seven of the charter. they'll authorize the use of force in syria else to comply. -- fails to comply. >> make no mistake, we are all
agreed that includes russia that there will be consequences if assad not agree. the military option is still on the table. >> in moscow, the foreign minister was quick to distance himself from john kerry's comments. >> the statements made by our partners saying the resolution under chapter seven has to be adopted as quickly by the end of the week. >> it shows a lack of understanding of what john kerry and i agreed on. >> with russia, syria's only allies, it may end up wrecking the syrian peace process. >> turkey's deputy prime minster has a helicopter was shot down. the pilots got several warnings earlier after they strayed about
two kilometers into turkish airspace. moving on to the shooting at the washington naval yard. officials said at least six people been killed. according to police, one gunman is dead and there might be to martin. speed a short while ago, president barack obama said the attack was cowardly and he want authorities to work together on the investigation. >> it happened on a military installation in our nation's capital. it is a shooting that target our military and civilian personnel. they know the dangers of serving abroad, but today they face the unimaginable violence that they would not have expected here at home. >> our correspondent is at the scene of the shooting. philip joining us. what more can you tell us about the shooting? >> from what we are seeing and what we are being told, this is
a very active investigation. the police perimeter is a tight one. any search for additional shooters is ongoing at the navy yard facility. that is the main piece of you that we have from here is to potential gunman are at large. that's what we got from police department here. around one hour ago, one of the shooters with dad -- was dead according to the same department from washington, d.c. it is not so clear right now for what we heard from the police department that there are multiple fatalities within the yard complex. or he four blocks from where i am now. casualties and injuries, not so clear. -- three or four blocks from where i am now.
we do not have a total number yet. not a total number a daddy yet. -- a total number of dead yet. >> we offer reports on shootings, mass shootings in the u.s. sadly. this a rare occurrence and the nation's capital. >> security is always high and washington, d.c. and it has been increased especially after the robert bentley to further gunman -- after there were potentially two further gunman. i can see the capitol building from where i am standing. i am only one kilometer away. security has been increased. this is an ongoing situation. there could be two men at large. in the described as one blackmail and one white male -- they have been described as one black male and one white male.
they are seeing how they got into the complex. it is a very secure area of washington, d.c. and one of those shooters if there are multiple shooters died at the scene at the navy yard complex. this is a big on plex. 3000 people work here. -- this is a big complex. they are told to not move from where you are and be safe. >> thank you very much. time now to show you the latest images coming from italy. the concordia is still underway. this 20 month after it ran aground killing 32 people. the massive and complex operation started about 10 hours ago. our correspondent explains them it is going slower than planned.
was the concordia has been rotated at least 10 degrees. that is really a lot -- a lot longer than they estimated. it was supposed to take at least 12 hours. clearly, a lot longer will stop the salvage team said they plan to work into the night. they're prepared and how like up around the area. they can work through the night. there were concerns about the weather conditions, stronger winds during my time. they said they think things will go according to plan. it is better to take things slower and be more prudent. right now, all of the residence, the journalists who are waiting here are wondering how long it will take. for the time being, there are no fairies. everybody is here. -- there are no ferries. >> that is it from the newsroom. time to hand over to francois picard for the debate.
>> thank you for that. it is time for the debate. both are not him but little suspense as rwandans picked a parliament. -- the votes are not in, but there is little suspense as rwandans pick a new parliament. at stake, a constitutional reform that will lift term limits. with the man who directed the tutsi and started the genocide is due to step down as president. and the nearly two decades that followed, tiny rwanda has been a darling. both because of the horror it endured back then and eight percent annual growth. great strides in health and education. he, and the singapore of africa. now, the west not turning a benevolent blind eye to abuses.
-- now bambi, the singapore of africa. -- now they have become the singapore of africa. suspending or delaying, are you leaving the country has plenty of enemies. do the ends justify the means? we are looking at kagamé's wonder. we are joined by simone schlindwein. thank you for being with us. also in the studio, george kazoliasan author. welcome. welcome to gérard prunier. you could join the conversation and you can on twitter and facebook.
#f24 debate. polls have closed. even when there's little suspense, it's a little bit of underlying tension. with two-week and grenade attacks. reported earlier from a polling station in the capital. >> one third of season will be decided by the ballots today stop the other will be distributed according to a list. in order to increase the representation of women and youth. highlights will record -- it is likely that allies will record another victory. >> that stake -- election ballots are counted is whether or not term limits will be lifted for paul kagamé.
they left the african viewers, democratization. -- a lot of our african viewers, democratization stop there's been no statement of behalf of paul kagamé but that is what is expected. >> it is more than likely. if you look at uganda which is a little bit of of the same making in terms of ideological background and even physical presence including a war in uganda, exactly that. i'm afraid he is not the only one on the continent likely that would accept to step down. that's a possibility of changing the constitution. >> simone schlindwein you have done a lot of country hopping in your reporting and the great lakes region between rwanda,
congo, uganda. rwanda today when you hear that it is trying to build itself as africa's singapore. what is your thought? >> first of all, the impression is if you enter for one dump especially from -- where one dump -- wanda -- rwanda, in terms of quality and how the country looks like today will stop the look is very -- today. the look is very different from how you analyze the country. there are very different layers of her wanda today. it is never in a certain state. it is always a process. where it goes, it all plays along the way. how we understand rwanda today. there's never a certain level that rwanda, it comes from a
certain point that was very brutal and the country was very much a straight. it goes into a direction with a clear vision set up. for the future in terms of development and for structure -- infrastructure and economic reforms where the country development goes. yes, it is always called african singapore. i guess all of this is a little bit wrong and not very right because it is difficult to compare these countries. and the space it -- and the specific point of development. rwanda is a developed country. if you look at neighboring countries in terms of infrastructure, it is still lacks in terms of electricity. and all of these things that people demand. he will demand power now.
investors demand power. rwanda still have a long way to go. and this is where we are now. a big turning point. >> a turning point. the that many layers. over a year ago, a reporter followed the rwandan president. quick -- >> he dreams of it as a an african singapore. a focus on economic and social development whether that democracy. healthier, better educated citizens active transform this rural country into a commercial hub. kagamé is a frequent twitter user. he is at ease with the students. >> during those public appearances, kagamé is dead
serious and keeps his emotions to himself. during a question answer session, another person slowly emerges. it is the yes, you can. rwandan style. >> do not waste opportunity. if you have an opportunity for an education, sees it -- seize it, hold it, and run with it. do not waste it. >> george kazolias, what is your reaction? >> he has a captured audience i would say. cap this, -- captive. they are perfect elections that
you can have it without democracy or freedom. that conclusion to the opposition party run by the members of his government. where as real opposition people tend to either have a violent ends or end up in prison. we can have a debate on whether we want real democracy and were wanda -- rwanda today or not. there is not. >> the challenges are formidable especially as simone was saying. in the context of the current state of rwanda, born of sheer violence. >> a love the infrastructure was built on violence as well. they do not go into zaire and occupied just to, they brought out a lot of wealth and probably
continue to do so. that was made pretty public. where the internet community has really failed is because of the genocide in rwanda, a lot of things that had been people spoke up such as michael were sidelined. to prevent these things from coming out. once again, we can discuss whether we want them to come out or not. the problem is, although we are forbidden to talk about fms city and rwanda -- atomicity in -- ethnicity in rwanda, it exists. and you know, i can look at where one does and not -- were wanda -- rwandans and not to
know who is a tutsi or not. it is hogwash that there is no admitted he -- ethnicity. who has power and where is the wealth. there's got to be a lot of anger on the other side as well. fear has changed camp. >> we are joined by a rwandan. thank you for being with us. do you agree with what george kazolias said? let's face it, we can been talking about -- ban talking about ethnicity but it still matters a lot. >> it did not go anywhere despite the government is trying to say it. it is in people's minds.
with the government the way it is running services in trying to oppress one from the other. you will see within every day of the government will stop it is also in people's minds. >> simone schlindwein, what is your -- what have you seen in terms of that? would you say they are just as tense as they were two decades ago? or things are evolving? >> it is difficult to say. as tense almost 20 years ago because comparing the situation to right now and back then. i think is interesting to compare a little bit where there's a similar consolation of
ethnic problems. a different way to deal with the problems. if you compare the debate of being either one or the other ethnic group, and everyday lives. the parliament wants to say as a presentation of both -- all three ethnic groups and power situations. rwanda is totally different. there is a big term -- a big model of seeing all the one dense -- rwandans. it is the way it is. maybe at this much more to deal with and say we want to have this debate and want to have it like this if you want to talk about it or do not.
how to deal with these things. i think there is a lot of unspoken tension will stop journalists say it is a little bit of a black box. we cannot determine what is going on in people's daily lives. it is very close. it is naïvely to talk about things. especially an open public spaces. -- it is not easy to talk about things. maybe question how to deal with it. >> overtime, could kagamé critics and supporters coming from those in his inner circle. when he was followed last year, he shrugged off allegations by former aides of being a war criminal. >> in africa thomas -- africa,
there is nobody -- if you are, popular presents itself. the other, they are dictators. this is a standard. this is how we wanted to look at it. >> your reaction to what paul kagamé said and how difficult it is to read the dynamics between people inside of rwanda. >> it is probably not so difficult. if you go back before the genocide, not the bad years in the late 1980's. it was not that much racial tension. it was very strong in the 1960's ahmard early 1970's and eased off. it comes in spurts. right now, it is been pushed
back into the bubble. it does not mean it is gone and things have disappeared. the problem is by denying there is an estimate problem that makes it worse. -- an ethnic problem that makes it worse. if you do not talk about things, you make them worse. it does not mean that it should be encouraged, there is among one group. it is what you find especially in the migrant communities in europe. there was no genocide. at the same time, and we look at the way it is handled. there was a genocide but we will not talk about it. it will not talk about what happened. is a very simplified version. it means we are in front of the pressure. the pressure is kept inside all
stop it does not mean it is smooth. >> perhaps it would help if we talked about what kagamé did on the march. the european commissioner at the time put the number of people killed by an associate at 500,000. >> we are going to tell you on twitter. describe their vision of democracy. what would it look like animal would include or exclude? we are pleased to be joined from brussels by the director of the radio station, albert. let me apologize for the technical issues at the top of the show. that question from the viewer, what should democracy look like in rwanda? >> what it should look like is i guess, anywhere is just that --
we have to remember that democracy is a process all of the time. the state of democracy that we see now in the west is not the same as 1789. while building a democracy after what everyone knows what happened in 1984. it is not just building a democracy, just out of the air. it is trying to build a modern state. a modern state meaning also a modern nation, classes change. that you do not have the traditional classes anymore. and you are building new classes. all of that, building a democracy also is a bit like -- and business in there. what threshold can you really
you in on a breaking news story. at least six people killed according to the associated press in the washington navy yard at the u.s. capitol. one gunman killed. police are still searching for two other potential suspects. we will go as we see the slide% images to the scene. -- the live images to the scene. a lot of confusion about what is going on. you were saying at the top of the hour it was still an active crime scene. >> we are told by the local police this a very active investigation. and they said it means there's a search on going forward to potential suspects, possible, further shooters at large. they have identified at least physically by d.c. police, one white man, one black man wearing
military style uniforms. that might be the as one nation or how they got into the military installation. what we can confirm is one is indeed a dad. multiple casualties. -- one is indeed dead. there are seven dad altogether. -- altogether. one officer was injured as in surgery. the number of casualties not yet confirmed to us. >> the motive is something we will be watching out for when philip gives us his next update. we'll continue to monitor that story as well as the latest developments from the united nations in new york where the secretary-general is reporting on what happened in syria last month. more at the top of the hour.
welcome back. this is the "france 24" debate. we are looking nearly two decades after the president, paul kagamé stopped the genocide with his movement at the time in that country. where would one day is. -- where rwanda is. george kazolias is with us. albert, welcome back. rené claudel mugenzi, the great lakes correspondent. simone schlindwein. and gérard prunier. from partner station, george kazolias, a new york times
profile titled the gluten easily -- the golden elites and they profile paul kagamé and ask him to define himself. he says some of the names i accept and some are not fair. god created me in a strange way. gérard prunier, paul kagame you have known him for a long time. you met him years ago. to a lot of people, and animated figure. >> he is. especially to the people who fought alongside him during the war. even before the war. basically, he was a ugandan in many ways. >> when did you first meet him? >> i met him during the
genocide. in the north. because i had been one of the few white people who went there during the war. two years ago, during the fighting, i had the opportunity to go there. the turquoise problem, let's say. >> when the french stepped in and work used by rpf of harboring those who committed the genocide? >> that was a little bit different because we were not harboring anybody. the main purpose of the mission and i was there with my good friend, who is a very amusing fellow -- a journalist, writer, politician. our purpose was to stop the
danger of the war between the rich -- the french and the rpf. both sides wanted it. i will not mention names. >> you meet paul kagamé who sort of surprised the world. when we were stirred him speak, he was speaking english. >> it was logical, he was ugandan. he left rwanda when he was three or four. he was totally involved in politics. he became a rwandan later in life. in our time, we are short on historical acts. people are only seen in the last 18 months or five years, a man's life is longer. he was completely ugandan. he fought against.
he fought in the war. he was a companion during the bush years. he was totally involved in ugandan politics. actually surprised everybody by subtly turning up as the leader of an invasion force. what was in that, it is open. >> that was that and that is now. is the paul kagamé then the same now? >> update definitely. his remarkable man. extremely concentrated. -- i would say definitely. he is disciplined. he is a good politician but not one who's wrong side you would want to get on. people are watching what we are saying right now.
i know i will have to measure my stuff. opponents in rwanda are known to have accidents. would you say stuff of the regime does not like. your life can be at stake. >> you got a threatening letter living in the u k, the day after you phoned in to bbc show and asked paul kagamé a question. >> a few days after when the police contacted me. they told me they had credible evidence that the rwandan government was trying to assassinate me. they gave me protection. and this is not something surprising. what was surprising was the rwandan government had been committing assassinations
outside of rwanda to kill anybody -- especially those who wanted to express different views. >> what to do you think of the portraits of paul kagamé we are painting? smarter than his opponents? >> i know what you cut me off in the first place. >> no conspiracy there. >> i think it is. fantasy. what ever my two colleagues in the debate talk about before, for a westerner to spend a couple of hours with an african with a rubble -- rubble and then become again -- rebel and them become again expert -- and
become again expert, it is a lot of fantasy. being an asylum seeker makes them suspicious of. doing things like that and i would say, where are the facts and two are the opponents that have been killed by the regime that we know? for me, kagamé -- when they say he is a ugandan, my god. how? how does he know what a ugandan and what is a rwandan? he is very much rwandan. he grew up outside of rwanda like many guys for people. they had to flee and the late 19th victims. -- he grew up outside of rwanda like many diaspora people.
-- they had to flee in the late 1950's. it makes it a success story. what we have to recall is when rpf was struggling in 1990, he was not there. he was not present. he came later. by the time he arrived, the whole struggle was in serious robbins. he reorganized everything. -- was having serious problems. he made it what we all know. he stopped the genocide. >> i will have to interrupt. we have to go to new york. the u.n. secretary-general. that long-awaited speech on syria. we'll have to cut and now. this is moon speaking.
>> have concluded that chemical weapons were used a relatively large-scale with an area of damascus on august 21. at cost newsroom -- numerous casualties among civilians. this morning, i submitted a report to the security council and the member state of the united states -- united nations. we've also posted online for all of the world to see. a team of experts led by a professor deserves high praise. they faced dangerous circumstances including -- they did get finished in record time. working with the experts from the organization for the
prohibition of chemical weapons or pcw. they showed the united nations, the report makes for chilling reading. a gathered testimony from survivors, medical personnel and first responders. they collected biomedical evidence and dozens of soil and environmental samples. it is provided impartial account. the evidence is overwhelming and indisputable. 85% of the blood samples tested positive for sarah and -- sarin. they confirmed the use of sarin. a majority of rocket fragments recovered were found to be
carrying surrender. -- sarin. it is beyond doubt this is a war crime and a violation of the 1935 protocol and other rules of international law. most significant use of chemical weapons against civilians since 1988. the worst use of reference of massive destruction in the 21st century. the community has a responsibility to ensure that chemical weapons never reemerge. an instrument of warfare. a knowledge meant that it
possesses chemical weapons are welcome developments that come with strength of obligations. also an agreement reached over the weekend between the russian federation and the united states on a framework to eliminate syria possible to weapons. i urge this morning the council to act in urgency to ensure the enforcement and compliance with this offense. after 2.5 years of presidency, now is the time for the security council to show leadership and exercise a moral and political responsibility. there must be accountability for the use of chemical weapons, any use of chemical weapons by anyone, anywhere is a crime. but our message to them must be more than that.
to not gas your people. there must also be no impunity for the crimes committed with commission weapons. the united nations commission reported last week on a host of horse -- horrors in the country from murder, rape, and torture. yet continues -- eight continues to flow to the country and the region. the humanitarian situation is desperate. people are leaving under siege. face terrible charges between the risk and place in the risk of taking flight. communities that used to live in
harmony are ripped apart by sectarian. people fled their homes. [indiscernible] it is causing instability. all of the killing must and. the fighting must end. we need to do everything we can to bring it to the negotiating table. [no audio] as soon as possible. i look forward to meeting with the prime minister lavrov and secretary stay john kerry that we will be up to set a date for the conference at that time. the u.n. will turn to syria as
soon as they can to conduct the other investigations for which it was established. my hope is that this instant will serve as a wake-up call to resolve the conflict and in the unbearable suffering of the syrian people. thank you. >> based on the delivery systems, some which have signatures, had humane made assessment for who is to blame? and if so, how do you propose to hold them accountable? >> they have been able to determine objectively that sarin was used on a relatively large- scale as i have said. it was the team's job to determine and to what extent chemical weapons were used, not
to use them. it is for others to decide whether to pursue this further. to determine responsibility. we may all have our own thoughts , i would simply say this was a grave crime. those responsible must be brought to justice as soon as possible. thank you. >> general, the u.s./russia plan has one week to declare all of his weapons. will you be sending that inspectors very soon to syria? >> yes, as soon as we have an agreement. i've asked a team to return to syria to continue the investigation in assad for a final report. i've discussed this with the director general and director
general and they have all confirmed the readiness to support this. as soon as possible. >> you have spoken of the need for accountability and ending impunity. how exactly are you proposing this to be done for war crimes? if not the security council, the -- and are you ready to use the tools available to you to guaranteeing such accountability? >> as i have repeatedly said him a those who have used chemical weapons or any other in the future will have to be brought to justice. this is a principle of the united nations. that international law and humanitarian law. how to do and how to promote
this, this will be the subject of ongoing discussions in the security council. i will be ready to discuss it. at this time, i do not have a clear answer. thank you very much. >> you heard it. moon saying 85% of blood samples found in the suburb of damascus tested positive for sarin. it is a war crime. do not slaughter your people with gas, he said. the secretary-general stopping short of pinning the blame on assad or rebels. we'll have much more on this at the top of the hour. we are in the debate over we were talking about the legacy of paul kagamé's rwanda and how
history will judge him. we were talking with our panel. you were interrupted by new york. i am going to let you get to the floor first. looking ahead now, there's a tipping scale, albert, where the west has not turned a blind eye. the u.n. report that puts the blame on rwanda for backing the n23 reble movement. others are delaying it. or suspending aid at some point. what is right now the situation? i know there are peace talks going on. >> i would like to finish what i
was interrupted. there are opinions, there are fantasies tom but there are fact s. the question was what to do the a president kagamé? this is the guy that in 1990, then when the rebel movement has quite some problems in the beginning. he stops the genocide when everybody else was not around. and then decided it cannot be any revenge. even if it happened by individuals, it was not his plan . he stopped as much as he could. he had to rebuild a nation. how many people in that situation of that magnitude would have transformed 20 years later a situation like that into a success story?
these are the real facts. every body else is trying to find something wrong with the guy. going back to congo, congo is like -- i will not name it here. it is a country where everybody works from sundown to -- sunup to sundown. reports always based on third parties. why don't you, with a smoking gun evidence? >> are you saying the defense minister did not pull strings on the n23? >> of course not. i think i will get every since 24 -- 1994. it is not that situation. we have such a short memory and news. we forget that in 2009 there was disagreement.
and of course, one of it was james who had most of the people who are in the military and congo and in rwanda and in the rebel groups. they are under him. this guy has been trying to keep that alive. because remember, the whole story started with suddenly the pressure was coming from the west. you had the badly elected and every body was saying -- it will give you more time. he stopped the framework agreement. at that time, when he was trying to keep everything together is when a report will come out and say -- >> simone schlindwein, do you read the situation the same way?
>> the situation in congo is complex. yes, these people are fighting. not because of rwanda or the main reason behind it, there's a headache and congo and rwanda and happens right now. a huge, massive problem inside congo. reading how if and how support in the eastern congo war is also a very complex question. with the not say this is rwanda and this is n23. it is people personally inside. there are certain leaders. linked to rwanda in a negative or positive way. some of them trained and rwanda -- in rwanda and fighting with
the forces. some agreed with them and some disagreed. not to say there is a clear -- they are not twins. and also inside of this agreement that they cannot stand each other. it is difficult to say, yes, there is 100% support. everybody is not included. it is really, really complex. >> a really complex situation. i know the presidents of both countries are going to be meeting both with their peace talks and the u.n. at the end of the month when there's their annual assembly. simone schlindwein, thank you for joining us. and also gérard prunier and george kazolias for being with us and albert from brussels.