tv Taiwan Outlook PBS October 21, 2013 7:00pm-8:01pm PDT
>> these are the headlines. a newspaper claiming the u.s. a stupid on millions of phone calls made in france. -- snooped on millions of phone calls made in france. a woman carry out a suicide bombing killing six. the greek charity caring for the child has received thousands of messages. the white house has reacted to newspaper claims that the french government saying all nations spy. the u.s. national security agency spied on more than 70 million phone calls in france over a 30 day period. the u.s. ambassador was asked for a comment. >> shocking and unacceptable. that is how the french government reacted to
revelations by a newspaper that the u.s. national security agency was spying on france. >> we obviously have a very close relationship with the u.s. intelligence services to fight terrorism. if a friend, and ally spies on france or other european countries, that is totally unacceptable. >> the report based on documents only by edward snowden back and june jim said that sa swept up more than 70 million records. that nsa program automatically recorded conversations as well as text messages based on keywords. they did not just target people suspect of terrorism but also high profiled individuals from business and politics. >> we had already been alerted back in june and we had a strong reaction. apparently, we have to do more. these types of actions targeting privacy between partners is
completely unacceptable and will must quickly make sure they are no longer in practice. >> over this number -- summer, snowden and the agency was spying on french agencies. earlier i spoke to our correspondent in washington, i asked him about the potential demo -- diplomatic fallout. >> the united states believes that the diplomatic price is worth paying in exchange for the kind of information that the national security agency and other surveillance are branches of the u.s. government are vacuuming up in this e-mail is snooping operation. we have seen ties between the united states and a number of traditionally allied partners. the brazilian president canceled a trip to the united states. she was so outraged about america's activities against brazilians and her own government.
we see these fresh allegations of actions are being conducted in france and also in mexico targeting the office of former president calderon. the united states is aware of the stress this is causing. they have calculated that the price is worth paying given the information that the intelligence and surveillance agency for seems to try and access. >> staying in the u.s., another school shooting. two people were killed and two are in critical condition. the shooting was at sparks middle school in nevada. according to police, the school is all clear and the suspect is down. that is all they have said for now. and russia, six people have been killed in a blast. investigators said a female suicide bomber targeted a passenger bus. shawn walker, our correspondent has the latest. what the russian committee has released the name of the woman
they said is the suspected suicide bomber. a 30-year-old woman which is the center of russia's islamic insurgency. we see frequent attacks on law enforcement and police. it is unusual that the rubbles are able to bring the terror in the heart of russia. that is quite unusual. it is a tragedy in its own right. it will russian officials with the winter olympics coming in february. this attack today doesn't show that every now and then they do manage to have capabilities to strike. >> to greece. a roman couple has been charged with conducting a child. after maria was found during a raid, dna tests showed she was not related to the people caring for her.
>> charged with abduction. the fate of the roma couple who claimed a little blonde girl was given to them i her biological parents. the greek court ordered the man and woman to be kept behind bars until that -- their trial. >> the plan is for them to remain in custody. >> outside of the courtroom, members of the roma community have been quick to defend the couple. >> i do not believe this woman stole this child. they can have up to 10 children in a family. we have never been involved in trafficking children. sometimes we take children that are poor. >> the mystery girl with discover after a police raid a roma camp. her fair coloring raise alarm bells. dna testing proves the girl is not related to the couple who claimed to be her parents.
a very unusual case according to human rights campaigner. >> the first case that we know where a child ends up and lived for years in a roma family. >> video emerged showing the little girl known as maria dancing possibly for money. neighbors said she was nearly doing part of the greek tradition. the couple faces a sentence of between 10 and 20 years and prison if found guilty. a day after a state of emergency, dry weather conditions made firefighting efforts is difficult. more than 50 brush fires are burning. they are afraid several could emerge. -- merge. homes have been destroyed and damaged. officials said conditions will worsen this week. some people forced to leave their homes after the focus
shema disaster will have to wait longer to return -- fukushima disaster will have to wait longer to return. officials said it is three years behind schedule. this is after another toxic water leak was reported on sunday due to unexpected heavy rain. japan's disaster has not put the u.k. after -- awful building a new nuclear plant -- off of building a new nuclear plant in more than two decades. it will be a consortium that will include chinese investors. >> britain is about to get his first atomic reactor in 20 years under a 19 billion euro deal with pdf. >> it is not going to be calling on the british taxpayers for money. will not have to diverge
taxpayers away from a railways or hospitals or schools. we are attracting foreign investors on french companies, and chinese companies to invest in our infrastructure. >> edf leading including french companies and chinese comedies that is you -- that is looking to get international prestige. they should produce 7% of the capacity once they come online in 2023. part of the government policy to review plans and get away from fossil fuels. >> it is a principle that marks industrial energy cooperation between france and the u.k. one of the most striking aspects in the last two years. which you have approached the debate about energy policy. >> of the u.k. is about to trend
away from nuclear energy. japan's fukushima disaster has caused other countries to scrap programs altogether. >> football fans held their breath as the playoffs were announced. it turns out the world champions and 99 date will face ukraine. -- in 1998 will face ukraine. greece will take on romania. >> the football gods have smiled on the blue. the french coach was hoping to avoid portugal in the playoffs. and he has. france will play ukraine and 2014. the coach warns it will not be easy. >> the ukrainian side has not lost any of its last seven games. they do not concede many yards. it will be a top away game.
the return game is a good thing. >> the statistics are in france's favor. ukraine has never made it through the playoffs and has never beat france in seven and counted. the biggest of the playoffs will be articles sweden with other world-class strikers -- will be sweden with their world-class strikers. iceland will have to battle it out with croatia to qualify for the first time in their history. the four winners will join other teams and brazil including spain, italy, and germany. >> that is it for the newsroom. it is time to crossover for the debate. >> thank you. tonight debate is can iraq be
fixed? war than 10 years after the united states has toppled saddam hussein, what good is democracy if there is no security? there's almost news every day of secretary and a violence usually against shiite targets. a suicide bomber killed 38 people. it is almost commonplace in today's iraq. ken al qaeda be defeated and avoid civil war? william jordan joined us. you served in saudi arabia and syria and north africa as well. abdelrahman dara suleiman, iraq he writer -- iraqi writer. he is based in paris. he is part of a group that works against sectarianism. myriam benraad, a researcher at a french political center.
one of the most knowledgeable experts in iraq. peter galbraith, former american ambassador. 2003 to he was an advisor when the iraqi instant that constitution was being written. he will have interesting insights. he has also written a book called "the end of iraq." let's get a feel of what life in baghdad is like. let's look at this. >> every day, hundreds of iraq is facing being targeted by religious militias. many are targeted on the street are in their home because they belong to the sunni or shiite communities. this rate of violence has brought fears the country could be on the verge of a sectarian
war last seen in 2006 and 2007. at the baghdad for resid institute am a bodies arrive by the dozen -- the baghdad institute, bodies arrive by the dozens. >> [indiscernible] >> he was lucky to escape with his life. the taxi driver was carrying passengers with gunmen tried to assassinate him and baghdad. >> i am shiite. i cannot a little more work in sunni neighborhoods. i cannot even go there. a few weeks ago, something happened to me and i did not know what i was meant to do. i was stopped and asked for my id card. he saw i was shiite. he went straight for his gun.
i let the engine running and i fled. >> that was an excerpt and you go watch it four reports on our website. let's go straight to abdelrahman dara suleiman, what is it like in baghdad? we got to the sense of what it can be like. is it the war of shiites against sunnis? >> i would not say the war against -- it is not a civil war. not to the usual definition that is given. it is being waged by an insurgent groups. of course, the state of iraq which has been active since 2006 and it never stopped carrying out attacks.
it targets both the institutions and in the army and the situation both shiite and sunni. the problem is the atmosphere has created mutual distrust between the groups particular in baghdad which used to be very peaceful in terms prior to the american innovation in 2003. i would not say it is a civil war. it is generalized of violence that can target anyone. along sectarian lines -- [indiscernible] >> hastily resident walk across a shiite neighborhood and vice versa -- can a sunni resident walk across a shiite neighborhood and vice versa? >> no.
in the past, in 2006, would baghdad -- would baghdad was divided -- when baghdad was divided, the neighborhoods were isolated. the groups are very active. again, there is fear of going for one place to another. they are afraid for their lives. there's a feeling that identity can be protected for some of the groups will stop -- groups who targeted them. again, civilian population is not part of the war that is being waged. >> you mentioned insurgent groups. it is mostly one and al qaeda. extremist targeting mostly but not only shiites.
>> well, the nationalist groups have tended to ride the political process especially when americans withdrew from the company -- country. yes, the trend of the insurgent led with spectacular attacks. it consists of the organization to remind everyone of the determination to get rid of any kind of political and institutional legacy postop in particular the american legacy. and they target a number of people, different people and
symbols. the government and its representatives either shiite or sunni or kurds use of the army or security forces. soldiers and policemen. and of course the civilian populations which does that secular attacks across the country will stop >> al qaeda wants to bring down the current iraqi government and attack government and civilians mostly shiites as we sat. you have been living in france and asked out. -- in exile. you have been watching keenly the events since 2003, the american led invasion. there was a turning point in
2006, 2007. it appeared for a while that al qaeda, the insurgent group had been defeated. are you surprised we are talking about the resurgence? >> al qaeda is not working. there are -- to al qaeda. the second part, the second phase of al qaeda. that is the corruption inside of the political class. al qaeda gave financial support and logistical support to most of the iraqi government from the army that can reach easily to its target. >> you said it have support
within the government structure? >> of course. al qaeda becomes -- after six months or eight months or one year, it has become a more stronger. there is a reason for that. the reason we cannot analyze because of the iraqi and local political conflict. >> you are saying al qaeda draws its strength from the weakness of the political system? >> vi ready system -- the iraq the system is sectarian. doing the time of saddam hussein -- during the time of saddam hussein, people called for building and construction and a democratic regime.
[indiscernible] that now we have not a really democrats -- a real democracy. >> you have all of the trappings of democracy. a multiparty system. an opposition. you have news media and elections. >> that is right but what is the meaning? there is no value. we have a constitution or an election and nobody respects all of this of the constitution. as an iraqi, it is not about the ballots. it is not technical. it is a culture. but it is not just a process of but a culture. >> we wanted to build new schools. we want to build hospitals and institutions. to change our culture that
removed the culture of dictatorship during 40 years ago. >> let me get a from william jordan. he is telling us that the criminality of terrorism in the country is not just the security problem but it goes hand-in-hand with the weakness of the political state. do you agree with that? >> from what i understand, absolutely. i do not think what we are seeing is an opportunistic terrorism campaign that is being driven even with the ideological potential of al qaeda branch that is operating. i think this is all happening against the very real a backdrop of the general breakdown of society, political structures resentment against the prime
minister and the people around him. let's not forget there's also -- all you have to do is look at international reports that a look at how iraq ease are faring today versus how they were faring -- iraqis are faring today versus how they are faring in the past. access to health care and electricity and education. in a country that its oil and gas rich, when you have a hard time keeping electricity on for more than several hours a day because of not just terrorist attacks that have broken down the infrastructure and but failed government to respond to the needs of the people. it is inevitable you have a dissatisfaction and chaos that a group like al qaeda will take advantage of.
>> let's bring in peter galbraith from norway. you are a former ambassador and worked in a number of countries that could be considered to be failed states. you worked -- you weren't involved in the process of iraq and afghanistan. as far as you are concerned thomas is it a security issue -- concerned, is it a security issue or defeating al qaeda or does that have to do with the building up the iraq he lyrical infrastructure -- iraqi lyrical infrastructure? >> i see this as a continuation of the sunni/shiite civil war that broke out in 2005. it went into a quiet phase in 2008 largely because the sunni turned on out qaeda. their basic demands for full
participation in the government were not met by the now shiite dominated government. one major reason this is reviving, this conflict is what is going on in syria. it also may have started the protests against the government but it has become a sectarian conflict with a sunni almost entirely sunni opposition opposing a shiite dominated government in damascus with the other minorities, the christians and kurds on the sidelines. >> can politics solve this? it'd involving sunnis more in the political process or not? >> the problem is two
irreconciable views. the shiites believe it is their country and they are the majority and they have suffered 80 years, the first 80 years of iraq and centuries that preceded that. the sunnis seated at the country they created. they see -- and they believe there isfor them. there are the kurds who unanimously just want out. they want to have their own independent state. as iraq falls apart, they move closer to having that. >> let's bring up the map of the ethnic or sectarian mix in the country. kurds are based in the north. shiite majority in the southern part. sunnis in the western part of the country. you are looking at the green part. al qaeda appears to have its base next to the syrian border.
myriam thomas -- myriam, what is the government reaction to al qaeda? if it is just a military answer -- is it just a military answer? >> there is no real security strategy by the iraqi government. a few months ago, baghdad announced their words -- there was a security plan. there will be measures. it is important to underline there is an organization, it is not a structure. they have benefited from networks. they have conferences and we have seen that.
we saw the violence that took place in some of the presence -- of the prisons. they managed to escape. [indiscernible] it is a problem. and has to do with social violence in the country and the fact the population suffers from a very poor conditions. the level of unemployment is a very high especially among the youth. it has to be sustainable answer. >> myriam, let me stop you there. we will have more right after the break. you are saying there needs to be a systemic answer, not just security but also social and
unacceptable. a deadly suicide bombing attacks southern russia. authorities said a woman carry out. a couple is charged with kidnapping a blonde child. firefighters continued to battle dozens of bushfires near sydney. officials said there may be a mega fire. welcome back. the debate. we have been discussing iraq. violence on the rise. 5000 deaths by august. people are getting killed daily. it is targeting both the government and the shiite majority in the country cap my guests today, william jordan. abdelrahman dara suleiman, a writer. myriam benraad.
peter galbraith, former u.s. ambassador. very interesting analysis in the second part of this debate. let's look at the numbers. staggering numbers. numbers of civilians killed per year from the beginning of this year to august 2013, the first eight months, 5000 -- 5714. previous years, it averaged about 3000 deaths. in 2008, almost 7000 coming out of the worst couple of years of sectarian violence. we are nearing those levels right now. i would like to go back to myriam. we have been talking in the first part of this debate about the relations between sunnis and shiites in iraq.
this is against the wider backdrop of the sunni/shiite rivalry regionally. we have iran on one side backing the shiites and well saudi arabia on the other backing the sunnis. >> i think there are 2 ways of looking at the situation. as peter galbraith said clearly, there's an impact of the syrian crisis. [indiscernible] the other way of looking is to look at the dynamics of iraq itself. as the point i was making. it is important to emphasize proliferation of each of the so- called, alleged communities. there is unity.
well, against threats like al qaeda. the voter framework of the regional dynamics. those forces are not united because of the presence. you will find the same in the sunni community with for assets the tribes -- it was announced he would resort to further attacks waged against al qaeda. some of them were backed and others announced they would consider the government as dangerous or as much as an enemy as al qaeda. examples of how much, to what
extent it is fragmented today. it is all a divider. it has been in forced. -- enforced. would you summarize it along the sectarian lines. >> we have this tweet. ethnic divisions will lead to the destruction of iraq. reminded us you cannot think of the conflict simply in terms of the sunni versus shiite because there are divisions within the both of the communities. however, i think the importance of the regional context needs to be reminded for our views. let's go to peter. we have a regional powers here who have a major interest in what is going on in iraq. >> yes.
in fact, it has become very complicated. during the civil war, assad's syria cooperated with al qaeda in facilitating attacks on the shiitesflow into iraq. iran was supporting and is supporting both of the government in baghdad come the shiite led government and the other government. assad in syria and now maliki who was a victim of what assad had been doing in the last decade is now assad's strongest support. meanwhile, the sunnis in syria have linked up with the sunnis in iraq. the kurds part of iraq which for all practical purposes is an
independent state has a different foreign policy from baghdad. it had its own ties to the syrian opposition. it has been supporting the syrian kurds who have established their own rigid and wish to emulate -- region and wish to emulate. here is another actor which is an interesting position is turkey. prior to 2003, the turkish government considered anything kurdish to be a threat to the unity of turkey which has the largest kurd population in the world. today, turkey is a close ally of the government and iraq. it is facilitating its eventual independence. even though the dominant party is linked to the turkish kurdish
group, turkey has established within them. it is also supporting the sunni opposition to assad. it is a really complicated mix. the fundamental point is these countries were artificial creations in the aftermath of the first world war. they are now falling apart. it is very hard to withdraw in the 21st century. i think the realities on the ground are the countries are falling apart and at some point the political map will follow. >> will get right back to that. i want to get abdelrahman dara suleiman's point of view. do you feel your country is the master of his own destiny? or there are too many other powers pulling strings?
>> and not at all. iraq today is not a country. it is a shop. it is selling oil. >> it is not a country? >> and not more than that. it is not the owner of anything. there's no project. no planning. no control over the regional situation. especially the south of iraq is the zone of power for iran. other parts for other countries. >> peter galbraith is saying eventually the map will be redrawn. the current country, the borders inherited from colonial times,
will not survive the current dynamics. do you agree with that? >> the balance of power can change at any moment. it all depends for example on the nuclear agreement between iraq and the united states. it is not the owner of his own destiny. >> you said the south belongs to iran. the north is different for that and the western province's sunni dominated. did you say saudi arabia? >> [indiscernible] any small country has a hand on iraq. >> william jordan, are we exaggerating? you served for the u.s. state
department. are we exaggerating the influence these regional powers have in reshaping iraq? >> i think so right now. somewhere down the road, the situation could change. i tend in terms of my analysis where iraq falls into the larger regional collaboration that is happening. the center of attention is on syria and correctly on syria. iraq has been something of a secondary theater and terms of reshaping of the region. iraq has a very volatile, internal dynamic of its own. a lot of things happening right to bear aware in fact, iraq in terms of his cousin to show convention -- it's
constitutional convention set itself up as a different state that would incorporate the idea of different as no differences -- ethno differences. the lack of political will among the leaders in order to make it happen has presented any progress and as a result, iraq is trying to hold on to the old nationalist state notion. in a way, it is creating the conditions for its implosion. that is what we are potentially seeing now. getting back to the larger regional dynamics, despite the opportunities for countries to take advantage of the regional turmoil, i believe the impulse all around is still for security, stability, and
maintaining the order of the people. we talk about the saudi's, when i was in saudi arabia in the 1980's, the one thing they were most frightened of what it was spillover into the eastern part of the kingdom of saudi arabia which is where oil is produced. they did not want to have to see iraq fall apart and occupied by iran. iran in a triumphant mode in that region. >> they wanted to contain it? >> when you talk about turkey and how they regard the kurds, this evolution of use that abdelrahman dara suleiman is talking about is pertinent. it reflects the tactical shift on the turkish part where they realize in order to maintain turkish security, they have been more willing to accommodate some
kind of kurdish identity in the region as of the price to pay him immediately to maintain some semblance of security wallet they are watching syria go up in flames. >> myriam benraad, how do you think the iraq he -- iraqi political elite of you that outside interference? we have been told that iraq is heavily influenced by regional powers. we have abdelrahman dara suleiman saying iraq is not a state. peter galbraith saying iraq in its current shape would not survive. it is all part of the conversation. how is he being perceived in baghdad -- it being perceived in baghdad? >> you raised several questions.
the very contradictions of iraq as estate since the creation -- as a state said the creation has been [indiscernible] this whole secularization since 2003. some of the parties like the kurdish parties and certain regimes during the exile of networks and flagships arose. they ran -- iran and all of the other countries, there seem to be interferences from the outside and it is being reinforced or facilitated by the fact that the iraq state has been weak.
it has basically collapsed in 2003. they are still struggling to restore a functional and legitimate state. >> i suppose my question is this, is there anybody within the elite which is resisting these outside interferences? >> there's a saturation that is clear between being influenced by a certain number of regional interest. it reflects -- and we have seen that in the way they have dealt with the u.s.'s role. it has been -- i was say it has been the same with individual contacts. iraq willing to play a bigger
role with the arab league and opec and regional organizations. >> there is some sense of iraqi unity? >> of course. there still is. something reflects that is clear. that is why i said iraq is dealing with is on balance within its borders. you cannot just see iraq as a country that somehow would not have its own resolutions. there is a contradiction. it's a contradiction you will find toward a more centralization and terms of a centralized state which has been the position for some time. and the more regional trend you
can see. [indiscernible] obviously with the regional- based economist. and also in southern provinces. iraq has always been marked by those contradictions. it is not a nothing new. >> peter galbraith, is there a positive outcome to this? the scenario, the pitcher women painting has been pretty bleak. al qaeda for the moment does not have a policy. -- the picture we have been painting has been pretty bleak. from a nationbuilding respective, -- perspective him a -- perspective, will see much of iraq appears to be influenced by outside powers. you said the country will implode. it's a positive outcome?
anyway iraq can be fixed? >> you are assuming that the maintenance of iraq is a positive outcome. if we were talking to the kurds, there are not any kurds who want iraq to continue. they want to have an independent country in northern iraq. isn't that a bad thing? -- is that a bad thing? i do not. >> perhaps the best way to fix the is to break it up into several parts? >> when countries breakup -- who regrets the breakup of the soviet union? it was wanted. should the sunnis and be subjected to rule of the majority of the shiites win and they define themselves by their religion in a way that the sunnis feel excluded, arrangements which provide for
greater autonomy for the sunni region makes a lot of sense. they have a constitution and it does and the weak central government by the design of its various people. it is not an accident. it is something the kurds very much intended. in fact, it was intended by at the time of the larger shiite party that was called the islamic revolution. it is not that to be outside powers are coming and interfering him a -- interfering, the parties are looking to the outsiders for trade relations and for political support. more or less, the same phenomenon is in way in syria. i do not think it would be a desirable outcome if the revolution succeeds to oppose a centralized state who would fear genocide. that outcome and syria is, even
if the revolution succeeds to some extent, i do not think it would dominate the region. if assad prevails, i do not think he can dominate the sunni region. that is the reality. in iraq, the shiites are not going triple to dominate the sunnis -- are not going to be able to dominate the sunnis. the kurds will not tolerate any central government presence. that is the reality. >> you are saying no one aside can win? if no one side can win, and then the best thing for the country might be for it to break up? you told me -- >> can i just add? it is not desirable for one side to win. the notion that holding together
a country against the will of some part is a good outcome, i do not think that is the case. >> let me put this to abdelrahman dara suleiman when we were preparing to show in 2003 when saddam hussein was toppled, you started dreaming that perhaps your country would be, one strong nation with a strong liberal style democracy. that was 10 years ago. have you stopped dreaming? >> in that context thomas the dream -- context, the dream is turning into a nightmare. nearly 40 years for a state of law, one country based on citizenship. in fact, the political elite today governing today in iraq are losing totally their ability.
there is no solution outside of the election. there are no other solutions outside the political processes. the aim of what is coming also from the united states and international community to stop supporting this kind of sunni/shiite parties. iraq the people -- iraqi people have the democratic personality, intellectual, good party, liberal want to aid their country to the best conditions. our aim is to continue our conflict during the election. we have no other solution.
we can count only on this political party which governs us by shiites and sunni another time. surely, there is a solution. >> do you see the country breaking up? >> if it continues like this, it will go worse and worse. >> a pretty bleak outcome. >> perhaps not. his argument is people cannot be forced to stay inside of their country. >> it is bleak. from when he was ambassador, peter galbraith would remember how painful the breakup of yugoslavia was. in a way, you have a similar sort of historical moment. i agree with everybody who says we are in a historical moment. after world war i in terms of
drawing colonial maps of a region that was not clearly defined, we are there and we are having to deal with some of that notably because of what is happening in syria now and what has been going on in iraq since 2003. i think there are a lot of within iraq and within syria, a country i know far better, there will be a constant contradiction and tension between the nationalist impulse that will want to hold together this comp stopped dead concept of syria which has been artificially -- concept of syria which is been artificially defined i guess other impulses that will be breaking the country apart into groups. it is always been a very fragile mosaic of ethnic, religious, and other groups. i think the problem with looking
at a lot of this is rationally, you need a conference where everybody is going to draw the maps again or you can do this and have it imposed. the reality as we are seeing is the people are ultimately went to decide and to be buffeted by day-to-day pressures, issues, and probably violent episodes that will push them in a number of different ways. there will be organized groups and those who have the means of exerting violence and residual government entities that will decide all of this and the people unfortunately will have very little say in the final outcome. >> it sounds like at the end of the day, groups like al qaeda and what to bring down the country as it exists today could end up getting their way? >> i think they can get their way in terms of the terrorist
group getting is waived by continuing to sell discord and dissension and violence. in terms of opposing what ever they claim to be doing, and no. i have said for a long time whether you are syria or iraq or other places in the arab world, groups like the islamic state have no place in the region over the long term. the problem is in the short to midterm you do not have the political will and the socioeconomic conditions to consolidate state institutions and create the structures where people can actually stand up to them. absent something like we saw in iraq 10 years ago with the united states organized groups to stand up to the sunni community.