donald trump. >> i think what is required is that we unify the party. the bulk of the burden will have to come from the presumptive nominee. >> i'm going to do what i have to do. i have millions of people that voted for me. >> i sat down with trump at omaha's airport on friday just before a rally. i began by asking him what he plans to tell paul ryan when they meet face to face on thursday. >> i'm going to say look this is what the people want. i just don't understand why he didn't -- you know, most people have come out in favor. we've gotten tremendous endorsements over the last short period of time. governor perry even came out. he was very rough. he came out with a beautiful statement. a magnificent statement. i have had so much support. i have had support from all the people that paul ryan works with. i mean, you see the congressmen they're coming forward. they're coming forward in waves right now. and, i'm actually a little surprised it's happening this quickly. just about the -- i understand why a jeb bush or a lindsey graham, i don't care. i was rough with him and beat him badly. i mean, 48 to 2 in his own state. and i understand that.

but paul ryan -- >> you're saying he's going to have to come to you? you're not going to come to him. >> no, i'm going to certainly come down the middle. i'm going to have to see what he's looking for. i was very surprised and very disappointed, because, you know, you should be -- we have to be cheerleaders for the republican party. we don't have to play cute. >> that became his line of the weekend. >> you know, he called me three weeks ago. we couldn't have had a nicer conversation. it's great. we'll work together. and now, all of a sudden, he wants to be cute. we'll see. we'll see. >> as for republicans who say they won't support or endorse them. >> i don't want -- if somebody doesn't want to endorse, i don't want their endorsement. it's okay. i'm going to release them. >> it's quite a list. presidents george and george w. bush. mitt romney. exrivals lindsey graham and jeb bush. >> well, i understand jeb bush. i was rough with jeb bush. if i was him, i wouldn't vote for me either. if you want to know the truth,

george. they should do that. >> but paul ryan is different. he's the speaker of the house. the highest ranking elected republican in the country right now. he's the chairman of the convention. back in march, you said he would pay a price if he didn't get along with you. what is that price? >> we're going to see what happens. he wants to meet. he'd like to meet. i think we're meeting on thursday. we'll see what happens. it's just more drama. but i think it's a mistake not to do this. we want to bring the party together. does the party have to be together? does it have to be unified? i'm very different than everybody else, perhaps, that's ever run for office. i actually don't think so. >> it doesn't have to be unified? >> no, i don't think so. i think it would be better if it was unified. i don't think it has to be unified in the traditional sense. i'm going to do what i have to do. i have millions of people that voted for me because i have strong borders. because i want strong trade. i want good trade. i want trade. i don't want to be an isolationist. what's happening with china, japan, mexico, they're just absolutely eating our lunch. it's a shame.

it's terrible. so i have to stay true to my principles also. i'm a conservative. don't forget. this is called the republican party. not called the conservative party. there are conservative parties. i'm a conservative. >> he swats away critics. hillary clinton is focused on locking in her base by playing that women's card. >> he doesn't think much of equal pay for women. because, of course, he doesn't think much of women, it turns out. >> trump digging in with this remarkable statement. >> i mean, all of the men, we're petrified to speak to women anymore. we may raise our voice. you know what? the women get it better than we do, folks. all right? they get it better than we do. >> he's also up against the president. >> republican women voters are going to have to decide is that the guy i feel comfortable with in representing me? and what i care about? >> i'll tell you what my reaction is. i won in massive doses and by a

massive number new york, pennsylvania, everything. i won overall. but i won women, with men, i won with older, i won with soldiers. i won with highly educated. and not so highly educated. i won with everybody. >> you're not worried about obama out there campaigning against you? >> look, you know what? once we start, i think it's going to be good. hillary clinton. the only thing she has going. she plays the woman card 100%. i saw her in a speech. donald trump spoke harshly to megan kelly. megyn kelly was terrific. she called me and came up to my office. she wanted to make peace. and, we did. we did. i mean, it was very nice. some of the stuff is said as, you know, an entertainer. because i have "the apprentice." or some of it was said in fun with certain shows like "howard stern," who's a friend of mine. >> you're not worried about the tapes of that coming back? >> what am i going to do? what the politicians say behind the scenes make whatever i said jokingly to howard and other people like baby stuff.

what they tell me behind the scenes, talking about everything, is far worse than anything you have seen or ever will see about me. and they act like, oh, that's so terrible. so terrible. i mean, you know, it's called give me a break. i watch hillary clinton like she's a baby. look what happens with her family. i watch hillary clinton, like, oh, the way he talks to women. the way he talks to women. well, take a look at her husband and what do you think he talks to women? so when i watch her, she's playing the woman's card so much. and so loud. and frankly, i think it's her only chance of getting elected. listen, she's going to get -- she's going to get hit for it. because it's not appropriate. >> there was an article in "gq" about your wife, melania, this week. you said spouses should be off the table. you're talking about bill clinton. should he be off the table as well? >> it depends if he's involved in the campaign. if he's involved in the campaign, he shouldn't be. i think he gets involved when she plays the women's card. when she says donald trump was nasty to a woman.

number one, i have worked so well with women for so many years. you know, i broke -- you talk about the glass ceiling. what i have done in terms of jobs for women. to this day, i have so many women in my company doing so well, making so much money. in many cases making more than men in comparable positions. but, no, if he's involved in the campaign, he should absolutely, he could be brought into it. >> so -- fair game. >> i think fair game, yeah. no, i think fair game. >> as trump made clear friday night. >> nobody in this country and maybe in the history of the country politically was worse than bill clinton with women. he was a disaster. >> and saturday. >> hillary clinton's husband abused women more than any man that we know of in the history of politics, right? she's married to a man who was the worst abuser of women in the history of politics.

she's married to a man who hurt many women. and hillary, if you look and see study, hillary hurt many women. >> to trump, the rules of the game are clear. if you're on the field, you get hit. >> my wife was a very successful person. she did great. she was a very successful model. now she's a homemaker. she just wants to -- she loves taking care of her son. she's a good woman. and people that are married to people like me, especially people like me, um -- i hope there are others out there, who knows? but, they get really hit unfairly by so many different articles and writers. and they're not looking to hurt them. they're looking to hurt me. she's a very good woman. a tremendous heart. very, very charitable. and it's sort of unfair when they get treated nastily. not so bad, but nastily. >> much more coming up. let's break in with "the roundtable."

joined by abc's matthew dowd, democratic strategist donna brazi brazile. alex castellanos, and rich lowry. katrina vanden heuvel. editor and publisher of the nation. let's start with paul ryan and donald trump. matthew dowd. a tweet from pair sarah palin t morning. vows to defeat speaker ryan for defying trump. says ryan motivated by 2020 white house ambitions. kind of a declaration of war. can this breach be healed? does it have to be? >> well, i think, actually, the breach is not between -- fundamentally between the elite and donald trump. it's between various members of the elite and gop voters. the problem for the gop elite is that the g voters have spoken and donald trump represents their party. i think paul ryan and others in the party have to decide if the republican party, as it is today, represented by donald

trump, is they party -- their party anymore. donald trump is not the problem for the gop elite. the republican voters are the problem for the gop elite. >> paul ryan supposed to be the chair of the convention. i asked donald trump if he should be chair. here it was. can paul ryan chair the convention if he doesn't endorse you? >> that's a question you have to ask him and reince and i guess me. ultimately me. >> yeah, that's why i'm asking you. what do you think? >> i have had so much support. support from the people that paul ryan works with. >> that's to matt's point. it leads to an awkward situation in july in cleveland if he hasn't come around. >> it's like bob dole says, maybe paul ryan sleeps late that day at the convention. paul ryan has power. paul ryan has strength. he leads policy. the intellectual wing. the future of the republican party really is in paul ryan's hands. trump is a strong guy. trump respects strength. paul ryan says, okay, let's talk.

this is good probably for both of them. this is the opening bid in that negotiation. >> you think it's inevitable they'll come around? >> i think they have to come around. it will be up to trump to understand that he needs something paul ryan has. paul ryan has the future. hillary clinton is the candidate with the past. she's more of the same. from washington. hasn't done enough. paul ryan is saying there's a new economy. the world's connected. we have to open things up. he gave a brilliant speech at georgetown the other day about that. trump is not running as a party guy. trump is running as i'm one human being, person, i'm going to do a better job. he has no vision around which to rally a party. that's what ryan could give him. >> he made it clear he's not running as a conservative. solely as a conservative. you have the famous cover, trying to stop trump a couple of months back. is paul ryan now part of the stop trump movement or is he, as

alex is talk about, going to have to get on board? >> i think what ryan did was rightly an expression, of disgust with how many republicans just got on board immediately with no questions asked. i think given his position within the party and probably at the convention, it's going to be really hard for him to sustain this posture. i believe he'll seek some assurances from trump. that he'll be a little more serious on policy. serious in his demeanor. >> trump would drop the muslim ban -- >> will be worth nothing. >> the day after donald trump became the presumptive republican nominee, he doubled down on banning muslims. doubled down on building the wall. paul ryan has been one of the republicans who have spoken out against the kind of bigotry of donald trump. and, i think for paul ryan to just basically rubber-stamp donald trump without questioning the substance of some of the things he's said and the tone. paul ryan has been talking about changing the tone. yes, alex, he's apologized for, you know, attacking poor people in the past.

i don't know if that's a quote unquote the policies of the future. but at least paul ryan understands that donald trump has to change his tone before he embraces him. >> paul ryan is a member of the elites which matt spoke of. i think we're seeing the crack-up of the party. the elites didn't deliver for the base. they've been shafted over the years. we're also seeing, let's be honest. donald trump is like the republicans' frankenstein with orange hair. the republican party is reaping what it has sowed. there's all this nostalgia about ronald reagan. ronald reagan announced his candidacy in philadelphia, mississippi, where three civil rights workers were killed. we need an inclusive populism. not the scapegoating populism to speak to the real anxieties and fears and frustrations. but with hope, not demonization. as donald trump is doing. >> i think katrina is right in part.

there is a fundamental existential question. that the republican elites have to ask themselves is -- is paul ryan, what party is paul ryan the future of? because the party right now says we want to ban muslims. they voted for donald trump. we want to build a wall. that is who the party is. to me, yes, paul ryan is the future. a future of a dinosaur party that is gone. >> the traditional critiques of republicans are they're too obstructionist. and here you have donald trump saying he can make almost any deal that he can. and that they're too rigidly ideological. you have him saying, i have no ideology whatsoever. there's no doubt for the next interval, reagan-style conservatism will be in exile in the party. and for the first time ever, we need to get our minds around this. the size of government going back since in new deal will not be a major issue in this general election. >> that's critical. the republican party, the conservative movement for the last 70 years has framed itself by fighting against the

civilizing advances of the new deal or great society. this is a moment where we should take advantage to think anew for what it means for people's lives. >> they've lived in hypocrisy. on this issue. they say they're for small government, but every person in office over the last 25 years has grown government. >> both parties created a leadership vacuum. democrats have more of the same from washington. things are going not so hot. republicans are saying our principles are only god for saying no and telling people what they can't do. guess what? america is frustrated and angry. there's one center of power in this country right now saying no. >> bernie -- >> that's paul ryan. >> president obama -- obama said about bernie sanders, he's the fresh face of the democratic party. >> he's more of the same. >> he's not only moved the democratic party to the progressive left, he's moved a generation to the progressive left. that is the future. >> we'll talk more about that in

a moment. i want to ask rich one final question. how can paul ryan come around to donald trump if donald trump does not move on the ban on muslims or the deportation of immigrants? >> it will be very awkward. and look. trump doesn't like foreign trade. doesn't particularly like foreign nations, including our allies. doesn't like foreign interventions and doesn't like foreigners when they come here. that's the ideological core. everything else is completely negotiable. he's telling us. >> and all of you will be back later in the show. we have a lot more coming up. we'll get more from donald trump. we'll dig into his policies. and later, is this the year the third party breaks through? the libertarian candidate, gary johnson, joins us live. for the little things. daughter. and the big milestones.

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by your body. megared. the difference is easy to absorb. this is not entertainment. this is not a reality show. this is -- uh -- a contest for the presidency of the united states. and, what that means is that -- every candidate, every nominee needs to be subject to exacting standards and -- genuine scrutiny. >> president obama urging scrutiny of all the candidates' ideas on friday. just as we were sitting down with donald trump. for a lively back and forth on his signature policies -- taxes, trade, making jobs here in america, and the ban on muslims.

you say fixing the economy is your number one priority as president. your tax plan is your most substantive and specific proposal out there. you said you believe in raising taxes on the wealthy, including yourself. but your plan gives a massive tax cut to the wealthy. how do you square that? >> it gives a massive tax cut to everybody. if you look at larry kudlow, he says it's a great plan. he loves the plan. >> but more to the wealthy than everyone else. >> george, i say this to people all the time. i make deals. i negotiate. i put in a plan that has a massive, massive -- bigger than any other candidate. we have to negotiate with congress. i'm not going to be able to say, like president obama, let's do an executive order. okay? it would be wonderful. it would be a lot easier. you can't do it. you're not supposed to do it. he may do something. much of what he's done will be overturned by the courts. what i'm doing is i'm putting in a plan, and that's my maximum plan. it's what i want. >> do you want taxes on the wealthy to go up or down? >> they will go up a little bit. and they may go up, you know -- >> but they're going down in your plan.

>> no, no, in my plan they're going down. by the time it's negotiated, they'll go up. i'm negotiating with the democrats, i'm putting in my optimum plan. it's going to be negotiated. it's not going to stay there. they're not going to say, there's your plan. let's approve it. they're going to say let's see what we can do. it will be a negotiation. i'll try to keep everything. what i really want is lower on business. business, we're the highest taxed nation in the world. i want lower in the middle class. the middle class in this country is getting decimated. i want -- i'll fight like hell for that. >> but people like me and you should pay more? >> i don't mind paying more tax. i'll be honest with you. i don't mind paying more tax. i've done very well over the last ten years. >> but under your plan, you pay less. >> but under my plan, it's going to be negotiated. i'll be submitting something like what i did in terms of concept. it's a concept, george. it's a concept. the real concept is lower taxes for business. lower taxes for the middle class. lower taxes for everybody. then we'll start negotiating.

so if i want to get lower taxes, which is very important to me, i'm not going to put in high taxes or what i necessarily want. i'm going to put in lower than i want. and we're going to negotiate. >> in the end, will someone like me or donald trump pay more? >> i think more. but i'll tell you. the middle class will pay less. i wouldn't mind paying more. we gotta do something. i wouldn't mind paying more. business will pay less. the middle class will pay less. we're going to bring in our money. the corporate inversion, what is going on is incredible. we have trillions outside the country. we have a 10% tax on that money. right now, they can't bring it back in. by not bringing it back in, george, that's -- >> it's something you'll negotiate with the democrats. >> on the trillions that are out there. >> on the taxes on the wealthy. you're willing to pay more? >> i am. and you know what? the wealthy are willing to pay more. we've had a very god run. we hear about obama. we hear all about -- we have had a good run. >> that would be a big change from your plan. >> it's not a change. it's a negotiation.

remember this. if i could get my plan approved this way it is right now, i would be very happy. it's not going to happen. we have a lot of people that will be negotiating this. they don't do very well. the world -- if you look at the united states with tax plans. not a lot happens. it just sort of stays the same. it's a quagmire. one of the things i'm getting is big simplification. we're getting lower rates. we're getting a lot of things. massive simplification. getting rid of carried interest. it won't make hedge fund people happy. >> those people pay fewer taxes. you're getting rid of the loophole. you're taxing it as regular income. it will go down from 23% to 15%. >> by the time it gets negotiated, it will be a different plan. i like to be -- i like to have my cards on the table. we're going to submit the opt number. that's what i would like to get. we'll fight for it. we're going to submit the optim optimum. from a practical standpoint, it will get renegotiated. in my opinion, the taxes for the rich will go up some what. >> minimum wage.

all through the primaries, you were against it. now you're looking at it. what's your bottom line? >> i am looking at it. i think people have to get more. >> that's change from the primaries. >> i'm allowed to change. you need flexibility. whether it's a tax plan, where you know you're going negotiate. we're going to come up with something. my real minimum wage is to bring companies back into the country. they'll make more than the $15. they're going to make a lot more than that. that's what i want to do. >> let's talk about that. >> george, i've gone all over the country over the last -- really more the last eight weeks than before. >> since last june. >> i've gone over and seen factories just emptied. beautiful factories, though now they're not so beautiful, because they're starting to crumble. but i've seen buildings that used to house thousands and thousands of people. they're empty. you could buy them for $2. upstate new york. pennsylvania. >> carrier, ford, apple. you want them to come back. >> i don't want them to leave. they're not going to leave. because if time -- we have to use the power of the tariff.

we have to use the power of taxation. if we don't do that, we're very, very foolish. >> don't you have to lead by example. so many of the products in the donald j. trump collection are made overseas. bangladesh. china. >> that's because you can't buy them here. i want to buy television sets here. i want to buy. i buy thousands of television sets here. i have a lot of different projects, as you probably have heard. i buy thousands of sets. i cannot buy a television set in this country. >> if you want other companies to make their products in america, shouldn't you make your products in america? >> they don't make a lot of the products. >> shouldn't you lead by example? >> george, i told you. they don't make this stuff here. when i want to buy -- >> brooks brothers does. >> they don't make here. they don't make here. not that i see. i make my hats. make america great again. i said, you must get the hats because i knew the first question was, where are they made? people grab the hats and look. now i will say this. there are knockoffs from hundreds of companies. that hat is a successful thing.

and i see them all the time. all over the place. i said, i want all of this stuff for the campaign. i want it to be made here. it's made here. and i'm very happy about it. by the way, the quality of the hat is better than all of the other ones that i see. >> president trump's in the oval office, he's got the head of carrier and apple there, they're saying to you, why aren't you making your products in america? >> george, they don't even make the stuff here. it's so hard to get. why don't i buy building materials here? i say make sure you buy it in the united states. they come back. they don't even sell stuff in the united states. >> you don't think that undercuts your position? >> i don't think it does at all. what i want to do and what i'm saying, i want apple, which is taking a big hit lately. which is sort of interesting. and a lot of people are starting to think, why? i want apple to make its product in the united states. you know, if you think about it, you save all the shipping. you save a lot of costs. one of the problems we have is the devaluation of the currencies. right here in nebraska, so, they

have a 38% tariff when they send out goods to china. 38%. nobody knows that. i just found out about it. i said, when you send your goods, farm product, your goods to china, and the person was telling me. i spoke to the governor. fantastic, by the way. the governor of nebraska is fantastic. governor ricketts. i said, why, that tariff is unbelievable. and japan, it's 38%. and they send their cars over and you can check. and i'll guarantee you. it's probably zero. it's usually zero. it's a very low number. we have a double standard. it's not fair. it's going to be changed. >> you raise a lot of eyebrows with your position in debt and treasury bills. in an interview the other day. you said you might try to repurchase that at a discount. won't that undermine the full faith and credit of the united states? >> no, that's a great thing.

we have $19 trillion in debt. it will go up. the budget was horrible that was made six months ago. the omnibus budget. it will bring us up to $21 trillion. >> who would sell to you at a discount? >> we have to do two things. i'm a low interest rate person. if you have inflation, you have to slow things down. right now, we have low interest rates. we have to rebuild the whole infrastructure of our country. i know the infrastructure. i have gotten to know it better now. you go to airports, they're falling down. i mean, look at laguardia. you land at laguardia, it's an embarrassment. look at kennedy. look at l.a.x. and newark. >> if you try to buy debt back at a discount, interest rates are going to go up? >> no. no. people are large on -- you know china has $1.8 trillion of our debt. and they're cheating us. and they're friends of mine. >> they're not going to sell to you at a discount. >> you never know. you never know. all of a sudden, they have to sell at a discount.

you don't know that. at some point, they might want to get out. maybe they need their money. they might want to get out. when you can do it, when you can take advantage, you do that. you might want to issue new long-term debt at low interest rates. you may want to -- a combination of buy back debt and rebuild our infrastructure. we've spent more than $4 trillion in the middle east and our country is going to hell. >> let's talk more about the middle east. your foreign policy speech, you said you wanted to work closely with our muslim allies to defeat isis. >> sure. >> don't you push them away with your plan to keep muslims from coming into the country? >> if anything, you make them stronger toward you. i've heard that whole thing. oh, if you do the ban. the ban is a temporary ban until we find out what is going on. the world trade center. san bernardino. we can't go through this. look at germany, sweden. a small section of sweden is beyond out of control. we can't be the stupid people anymore. right here in nebraska, they're bringing in tremendous numbers of people.

we don't know who these people are. we don't know where they're coming from. i would stop that immediately. >> you're in the oval office. president trump is there. david cameron who has criticized the proposal comes to you. benjamin netanyahu comes to you. the leaders of jordan and egypt and turkey come to you and say, we want to help you in the fight guest isis, we can't help you if the ban is in place. what do you do? >> i disagree. look, we're not getting any help. if you look at the help, we're not getting help. they're saying boots on the ground, boots on the ground. they're not fighting. we give them equipment, they run. they drop the equipment. the enemy picks up the equipment. i have a friend whose son has been years now, numerous terms in iraq. an unbelievable young guy. and i brought him in. i wanted to take to him about it. they're very dispirited. the equipment that the american soldiers have is not as good as what the enemy has.

i said, how can that be? and they have our equipment. the enemy takes over the equipment that the other ones are using, our so-called allies are using and they drop it and run and run for their lives. the enemy picks up our equipment. 2,000 humvees, armor plated. the best in the world. and we have stuff out armor-plate. he said it's really sad when the enemy has our equipment and it's better and newer than the stuff they're using. >> "roundtable" weighs in when we come back. plus, he won more than 1 million votes in 2012. polls in double digits now. gary johnson will be on the ballot likely in most states. we'll talk to him next. living with chronic migraine feels like each day is a game of chance. i wanted to put the odds in my favor. so my doctor told me about botox®, an fda-approved treatment that significantly reduces headache days for adults with chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more.

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in honor of mother's day, i closed out our interview by asking him to reflect on his late mom. >> great heart. she was a warm woman. she was a tremendous -- she had a tremendous warmth and a tremendous heart. and she understood, understood life so well. my father was a very hard-driving guy. really good man. very good person. but very hard. she was just somebody that was so warm and had the greatest