tv 2020 ABC January 18, 2019 9:00pm-11:01pm PST
♪ ew. the fall of jim and tammy faye bakker was a huge story. >> if you got on the bakker show you were famous. they were the kardashians of the gospel. >> it had everything. >> sex, religion, money. we're suckers for that kind of stuff. >> it got crazy in a hurry. >> it was a circus. >> jim bakker caught up in a sex scandal. >> that's what their life became. >> it's okay, honey. >> i don't know how god is going to work this whole thing out. >> they had a huge fall from grace. it's a story as fresh as 2019.
>> it's not over until it's over. ♪ in the church of the poison arrow ♪ >> praise the lord. may i help you. >> jim and tammy faye bakker were the most famous couple in america. >> he's the president of a multiple dollar religious organization. >> here's a pledge that was called in for $1,000. >> the industry of religious broadcasting was in its hey >> these were people that decided they could use television to broadcast a church service the same way you would use television to broadcast the evening news. >> jim and tammy faye bakker were something
like jim bakker wasn't as a podium talking to the congregation. he was behind a desk like a talk show host. >> jim and tammy faye bakker were the ken and barbie of television. they seemed honest. >> they brought encouragement and hope to lots of people. >> many times when i'm home maybe down in the dumps i turn on the tv. i listen to jim bakker and it renews my strength. >> i have a feeling some of you folks would be more than happy to help me. >> when they began to build their network, they had to buy air time. >> instead of us running a commercial and being paid for that commercial we went directly to our viewers and said if you like what you see, help us. >> the only way we can continue
to come into your home every day is if you care enough to dial that 800 number and become a partner. >> all your favorite shows are asking you to give them money by buying products. it was no different. >> it's going to take $1 million tonight. >> it's a fascinating story about religion. it's a fascinating story about american culture. it has a kind of timelessness to it. >> let's give the devil a black eye. >> amen. >> i'm asking you to start giving and just see what happens in your life. i challenge you to make a pledge to god. >> from the very beginning part of bakker's message was the message of the abundant life, what's often referred to as the prosperity gospel. ♪ heaven is a place on earth >> if you're praying for a car or a home, go out and find the
car that you want and speak the word of faith. go out and claim the home that your faith allows you. >> according to jim's gospel god wanted you to be prosperous and live a great life and have nice things. >> god wants you to be rich. in fact, the more you give to the church, the richer you'll become. >> praise the lord. >> if we weren't driving a rolls royce, when you give to god, god multiplies back. >> in a sense by taking their money he was doing them a favor. >> we need you to call right now. >> it's only when you listened to what they were saying, you realized from jim bakker's perspective, he was the money extraction machine. >> come on, folks. >> whenever they asked for money
for something it poured in. >> i saw god do >> they could make people cry. they could make people laugh. they could make people turn over their life savings. >> we had a cash office and at times there was certainly more money in there than i could imagine. people would send us mink coats, diamond rings, deeds. i mean, we -- we got all sorts of donations. >> christ said he wanted us to have life and prosper, and to be in health, as our soul prospers, and to have life more abundantly. i really believe jesus christ taught a message of blessing, and that's the message we have preached. christ said it's a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven?" am i misquoting? >> well, that's if the rich man, i would think, puts money first. and i can say this before god, that we have never put money first. ♪ oh baby do you know what
that's worth ♪ ♪ oh heaven is a place on earth ♪ >> they bought luxury cars, they bought expensive clothes, they traveled with an entourage. >> we're here at our home in the desert, a place where we come occasionally. >> once in a while. >> not as often as we would like. >> they eventually had two houses, one in palm springs and the other one in palm desert nearby. >> and we're kinda taking you into our secret hideaway today. and uh, it's not really a secret. >> his assistant, david taggart, rented a learjet to fly them to santa ana so that jim bakker could buy not one, but two rolls royces. >> they say the only difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. >> and then bakker apparently felt a little guilty so he bought tammy a brand new mercedes benz. >> it's almost you go into the elvis syndrome, you don't know
the word no. >> one of the things that came up is they had the air conditioned dog house, it actually existed. >> i was like, okay, now they really love dogs. >> ted koppel quizzed the bakkers about their super luxurious doghouse. >> the doghouse, you've got tell me about the doghouse. >> and i remember, from 30 years ago, i remember tammy turning to the camera, and saying -- >> we're sorry, snuggles. >> i absolutely believe that both jim and tammy were truly devout, faithful christians. i think things just got out of hand. >> it was called ptl, which stood for praise the lord, but people who watched that show, would say ptl really stands for pass the loot, because they were constantly asking for money. >> praise the lord! >> yes, ladies and gentlemen, the pass the loot club spreading
the word to millions each year and receiving millions by return mail. >> they were representing to their viewers that jim and tammy were giving everything to support the ministry. that was a line they used a number of times. >> no one can ever say jim and tammy are in it for the money, we make no money from the television. >> it turned out that from 1984 to 1987, ptl had paid them about $4.7 million in total. >> how much money did you earn last year? no idea? you're shrugging, mr. bakker. you don't know? >> i -- i do not have the exact figure. >> what do you pay a guy that can raise $30 million in a week? >> all the rules of fundraising have been totally broken. >> what do you pay a guy like that? >> they also said you were kind of like a shopping machine. >> i do like to shop. i probably am well-known for my shopping. >> yeah. >> but i am a bargain hunter. >> i enjoy shopping. it's kind of a hobby to help my nerves. >> jim bakker -- >> better than a psychiatrist. >> well, it may not be cheaper, the way you've been going at it, but let me --
>> maybe not. >> there's a saying that if the devil cannot stop you, sometimes he'll get behind you and push you too far. >> jim and tammy had this belief that they could convince any audience to do or to feel what they wanted them to feel. and this would first be their great success, and then their hun un huge undoing. >> hello everybody welcome to heritage usa victory day! >> i grew up watching her on my grandma's living room floor as my grandma gave money to the bakker family. i remember my dad coming through the living room and going, "mom, stop sending your money to those people. they're crooks." >> they were crooks. they really were. they deserved to be taken down. >> ready to take over the world? boy i tell you, watch out world, here we come. ♪ in the church of the poison
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president and mrs. jim bakker! >> in a sense, there's nothing that would've predicted that jim and tammy bakker would become television stars, from their beginnings. >> look at there, there is a picture from the old bakker family album. >> he grew up in this environment where you didn't dance. you didn't drink. you didn't smoke. that that was not the world he wanted to live in. >> the only part of high school that he really did well at was in theater. >> i'm the oldest of eight kids. we had an outdoor bathroom all the time i was growing up. >> that's the way we looked when we got married. >> jim and tammy met at north central bible college. they went on three dates in one week. >> that's just after we were married. >> on the third date jim asked tammy to marry him. >> and fairly soon thereafter
were traveling the road and entertaining at different churches, pentecostal churches. >> jim and tammy faye were part of the charismatic movement. >> you are healed in the name of jesus. >> oh bless your name. >> whoops. >> they decided to do a puppet show. >> those puppets are the reason we got into television eventually. that's the puppet family. >> we made 'em our-self. >> they ended up landing with a new christian broadcasting station that was run by a guy named pat robertson. >> its time for the nation's biggest yard party, the jim and tammy show! >> hi everybody. >> hi jim and tammy. >> i gotta tell you, this is the hint for the mothers unwrap the soap. >> how come you don't unwrap ours?
>> jim! >> praise the lord may i help you? >> what he really wanted to do was to create a christian version of "the tonight show" with johnny carson which was really the first of bakker's big innovations, the christian talk show. >> i don't have a tie on today. because -- well, it's a long story why i don't have a tie on today. but it was either this or nothing. so i -- >> he was a guy who didn't look like billy graham, or like a televangelist. jim bakker looked like a golfer. he looked like a pga golfer. >> ptl's second big innovation after the christian talk show was the creation of the satellite network and this changed everything. >> the transmitter satellite dish just behind me is the ptl's new world wide message carrier.
>> jim bakker was the gatekeeper to the heavens. he controlled the only broadcast satellite for religious broadcasters. >> from this moment on, ptl television network plans to broadcast 24 hours a day until the second coming of jesus christ. >> and now here are your host and hostess, ptl president and mrs. jim bakker! >> the ptl television empire revolved around jim and tammy's daily talk show. >> welcome to this hour of the ptl club. thank you. >> his mom and dad would be there in the audience every single day. the kids, tammy sue, jamie. >> they were just utterly so real, jim and tammy. >> one of the things we did while we were there -- ah! >> tammy had a -- a sort of a daffy quality. >> you've got to be serious on this broadcast. >> ok, let me powder your nose a little bit. >> we have the counselors here on the telephone to take your
prayer requests and to pray with you right now. >> they would pray for people over the phone. and low and behold, they would get healings and miracles. >> i'm a new person. the 11 years of alcohol and drug addiction are gone. my ulcers are gone. and jesus is now a part of my life. thank you again, tammy. praise the lord. >> jim's parting line at the end of every show was -- >> god loves you. god loves you. god loves you. he really does! he really does. >> we do have a great program lined up for today. >> bakker had a -- just a tremendously wide variety of guests on his daily talk show. >> the captain of "the love boat" is back. ♪ the "love boat" >> lisa whelchel is blair on "the facts of life." >> it's always been a real natural thing for me to be a christian. >> we're here in california with lou ferrigno, the incredible hulk for many many years. i want to say mr. t, i think you're the only one who loves
jewelry better than me! please welcome little richard. ♪ the lord is on your side pat boone! ♪ oh, brother this could be that very day ♪ and there were bebe and cece winans. i remember at the time two young black kids who could sing like nobody's business. >> i'm bebe winans. i'm from detroit, michigan. >> that's good bebe. speak it right out. ♪ whispers of love >> "whispers of love" got me my job as a ptl singer. i sang it just like that. and jim bakker came over and said "who did those whispers?" and he said "you're in the ptl singers. i want more of those." the one song that pretty much launched me and my sister's career which jim bakker came to the rehearsal with the idea and
said "you guys are gonna sing a duet." ♪ love lift us up where we belong ♪ and it was from "the officer and a gentleman," "up where we belong." >> and it blew up in inspirational gospel and across the board. >> bebe and cee winans are here. >> the show works. and it becomes popular. and they eventually built up a network that spanned the united states. >> if you read ratings, our rating are higher than they've ever been before. >> they became celebrities. and they became really kind of television stars, kind of national celebrities really on that stage, on the televangelistic stage. >> they started this whole thing down there in the late '70s. by the mid '80s, they were rocking. they had lots of money coming in.
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>> are we in los angeles or beverly hills? >> this is los angeles. it's known as westwood village. >> we're here today with governor ronald reagan in his office in los angeles, california. >> by the late '70s, early '80s, televangelists as a whole had an enormous audience, and politicians could appreciate this. >> i believe we can deliver with god's help, all the men quietly behind the scenes, 50 million voters. i believe that with all my heart. >> well. >> they are television stars, these preachers. and they've created a brand-new political constituency. >> in this country right now, there's a growing political movement. a coalition of evangelical christians and conservative groups. >> the power of the
televangelist became very evident during the elections. the evangelicals created a significant vote and the -- the presidential candidates courted them. >> just as we see today, the evangelical voter was a very attractive group of folks for any political candidate. >> so, bakker was someone that politicians were courting. >> at ptl's hometown newspaper, "the charlotte observer," two reporters disclosed that the ptl club collected $280,000 to set up a tv ministry in korea, but used the money to pay other bills. >> "the observer" published a story that prompted an investigation by the federal communications commission. >> they were concerned that he was using public airwaves to go on and raise all this money for a charity. and was the money legitimately being spent on the charities? >> he made promises about supporting ministries in brazil, ministries in korea, ministry in the middle east. >> and he's running into financial trouble.
so the money he promises to these ministries, doesn't get to them. >> ptl fought back. eventually they created their own documentary. what they called a documentary. >> in 1979 the fcc launched a massive inquiry into the internal operations of ptl. >> we do not want this church or any other church destroyed or intimidated by the government. >> it's not that they're really investigating ptl. they're trying to investigate god. >> nobody is forcing us to give the money. we want to give it. and whatever way jim bakker feels he has to spend it, for the word of god, that's good enough for me. >> even if he spends it for his own mansion, i couldn't care less. >> all i know, that if he does anything he shouldn't do with the money, he's in trouble with god. >> what's going to happen to ptl in the next five years? >> well, we have a lot of friends. we have more friends than enemies.
>> i, ronald reagan. do faithfully swear i will execute the office of president of the united states. >> eventually the fcc dropped their investigation. >> they said there was not enough evidence and they voted to close it. >> it starts during the carter administration, um, and it ends during the reagan administration. and that's probably not a coincidence. >> the ptl tv network is setting out a master plan for people who love. >> well, jim bakker took that as vindication. they looked into it. there's nothing here. there's no there, there. let's go. let's raise more money and let's get bigger and bigger. and that's exactly what happened. >> you know, tammy, $15 a month is 50 cents a day. that's small when you think about it. it's just soft drink or a couple of candy bars. >> you could give up one of those tabs. >> and i'd gladly do it.
>> in many ways, the federal communication investigation was kind of a -- a practice run for what bakker would later be accused of on a much bigger scale. >> this shows the location where we are right now. we're actually sitting right here. >> the income from the satellite network allowed bakker to launch his third big innovation which was creating a christian disneyland on the border of north and south carolina. what became heritage usa. >> bakker says he doesn't mind the label "christian disneyworld" as a description of his plans to create a place where ptl members can vacation with inspiration. >> bakker had always been fascinated by walt disney. he sat back and said, "why can't we have a christian version of disneyland?"
>> i had a vision and a plan, and i was a man with fire inside of me to do something for the christian world. >> it had a big hotel. little shops, a big waterpark. >> we didn't have an ocean, so we brought the ocean to heritage usa. >> it was meant for families. well, especially with the waterpark. that was wildly popular. >> it's taken three years. they laughed when i started it. some of the critics called it "jim bakker's folly." this park will be open and it will be paid for. >> they put in a water park. this is about a $6 million water park with the slides. >> we're the first christians to ever have a wave pool. we're the first christians to ever build an amusement park. we are fishers of men and this is the bait. >> another part of the ptl experience that people came really from around the world to be a part of was the passion play. it was done in an incredible panoramic outdoor amphitheater that was built just for that.
>> and the park is officially open. >> we were trying to build the best theme park for families in this country. we had more than mickey mouse. we had salvation. top that. >> heritage usa in the '80s becomes the third biggest theme park in america. right next to disneyland and disneyworld. >> as part of heritage usa, bakker decided that he needed to build a giant hotel complex. >> 500 room hotel, "the heritage grand." and soon after, decided to build a tower with another 500 rooms. so he had a lot of money to raise. >> you say, "jim, why would you build the tower when you need money to finish the grand?" because if you don't expand and you don't keep growing, you can't go forward. >> the problem was how to finance such a big project. and at this point, bakker did something brilliant.
>> when you give your $1,000 gift, you'll receive a special membership card that will allow you to stay here in the heritage grand for four days and three nights every year for the rest of your life. >> he invented gospel timeshare, you could say. >> that was a pretty good deal. and people bought up the partnerships like hot cakes. >> even i bought one of the rooms, which i have never stayed in. >> i mean, that was actually a great deal if he had been able to -- to live up to it. >> problem is, there were way too many people giving $1,000. not nearly enough hotel rooms. >> when people started cashing in, wanting to come stay and use their $1,000 lifetime partnerships, there wasn't room at the inn. >> he sold more than 66,000 lifetime partnerships in the heritage grand. which amounted to more than 100% occupancy in that hotel. >> they had the ear and the
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♪ >> it's a woman named jessica hahn. jim had a sexual encounter, evidently, with jessica hahn, and she was a secretary. >> it was easy to conceive of how, uh, jimmy bakker would have fallen from grace. >> and who had ever have suspected or imagined it? of a little kewpie doll kid like jim bakker that there would be anything immoral in his life.
>> jim was never perceived as a womanizer. never, ever heard a story of jim being inappropriate with anybody. i'm not sure anybody wanted to be inappropriate with jim. and so this was so incredible. >> was there a sexual incident with mr. bakker that took place? >> that -- that'll be all revealed when -- when they give their statement. >> money being paid? >> in 1980, jessica hahn was 21 years old. >> she was a church secretary from long island. >> she idolized jim bakker. she bought her first black and white television just so that she could watch his show every day. >> you watched the "ptl" on t.v. what did you think of jim and tammy bakker? >> well, i thought they were the closest thing to heaven.
you know, being brought up in a christian home and being brought up to love god, i loved what jim and tammy were doing. >> and i noticed a real miracle. your hair started to grow again. oh, it grows. >> this must be a sigh. >> honey, that way you don't have to look for a new girl for the new year. you've got one. >> bakker had a sidekick at that time named john wesley fletcher, who was another preacher who was trying to curry favor with him to get on his show. if you got on the bakker show, it was like a phil donahue show. you were famous. they were thekardashians of the, you know, of the gospel in a way. >> and fletcher would come through town at least once a year and preach a revival in hahn's church on long island. >> and he would come through massapequa and developed an acquaintanceship with jessica hahn, who he occasionally asked to babysit his children. >> fantastic people. >> please welcome them to
"ptl," john wesley fletcher and his wife shirley. ♪ >> but fletcher was also becoming notorious at "ptl" for making sexual advances towards young men on the "ptl" staff. and so his position at "ptl" was becoming increasingly precarious. >> the number one thing that i live for, brother jim, is to see the souls of men saved. >> john wesley fletcher and bakker were in florida doing a telethon, and fletcher called jessica hahn and said, "would you like to come to florida and meet jim bakker?" >> so he brings his former babysitter down to the sand key resort with promises to meet her hero, her idol, jim bakker. >> this is like meeting mick jagger of, you know, the evangelical movement to her. >> what did he represent to you
would be the reason for you going down there? >> i went with the intention of being, again, in the presence of some people i had admired my whole christian life. >> but there were never any suggestions at all that anything at all would go on down there. >> no. again, i went with the intention of being a part of something great. >> she claimed that she really had no idea what was going to happen until she got in the hotel room with john wesley fletcher and jim bakker. >> the way jessica hahn later described her sexual encounter with jim bakker sounds very much like rape. she later told me that she doesn't really feel comfortable talking about it in those terms. but she also clearly didn't believe that it was consensual. >> all i could tell you is it
certainly was not an affair, okay? and it was certainly not something that i would ever want to go through again. >> her version is pretty horrific. and in today's "me too" movement, it probably could've resulted in criminal charges. now if you believe jim bakker's version of it, it was a consensual liaison. >> once it started, she didn't know how to get out of the room. she didn't know what to do or how to make it stop. >> and fletcher, he then came in, and he said that you had to do the same thing with him or -- that's too hard for you at this point to say? >> yeah, i really prefer not to. >> when you got back home, i guess there was no thoughts of calling the police or reporting anything?
>> i -- first of all, i was not in my right mind. i was unable to think clearly. i just immediately went into a shell. i thought that this was going to be my secret for the rest of my life and that i should never speak of this ever. >> initially, both jessica hahn and jim bakker wanted to keep this quiet. jessica was deeply hurt that bakker didn't contact her afterwards. didn't apologize. >> no one bothered to say, "jessica, we messed up. we slipped. we fell. we're not perfect. we realize we hurt you." nobody bothered to do that. >> i talked to her on the phone within the next few hours, 24 hours, 40 hours, i'm not sure, over the next couple of days. i apologized. i told her i had repented. i'd asked god's forgiveness. i'd ask her forgiveness. >> she claimed she wasn't in it for the money. she did later take the money.
>> bakker personally directed the payment of "ptl" hush money to church secretary jessica hahn to cover up her sexual liaison with bakker. bakker said, "i hate to give them a dime, but do what you have to do to get it solved." >> hahn received $265,000 in "ptl" funds, covered up by phony invoices for the production of "ptl's" daily passion play. >> and someone heard that jim bakker had this fling. >> we heard this suggestion that we needed to talk to jessica hahn. ♪ ♪come, come, come, come, come along now,♪ ♪run away from the hum-drum, ♪we'll go to a place that is safe from♪ ♪greed, anger and boredom.
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over fist. >> last year ptl reported $129,000,000 in revenues. >> what we didn't realize was this would come to an end. i thought it would go on, you know, forever. >> what could possibly stop this perfect setup? how could anything get in the way of jim and tammy? there were a few things that were going to get in the way. big things. >> in january of 1987 tammy faye had a breakdown. >> they left me in the house alone with tammy, and that's when she started hallucinating. and i couldn't believe i'm there by myself with this lady and she'd taken her clothes off. and tammy didn't do that kind of stuff around me. >> and i really felt i saw hell, jim, i saw the other side.
>> oh, we all knew that she had some prescription drug problems. >> and i put my hands up like this and i said, in the name of jesus you have no power over me satan, i rebuke you in jesus' name. >> it turned out that she was addicted to a number of prescription drugs. they rushed her on a flight to palm springs where she entered the betty ford center. >> the bakker's appeared together on the air to announce that tammy was being treated for long term drug addiction. >> we had to face some realities that tammy faye had been taking a lot of medications for a long long time. >> and then while they're in palm springs, all of this jessica hahn stuff explodes. >> i knew something was up. i mean, there were just, you know, whispers and, and those kinds of things. >> we heard this suggestion that we needed to talk to jessica hahn. now, we didn't know who jessica hahn was. we didn't know how to spell her name. we just heard we should talk to her.
>> "the charlotte observer" was about to publish its expose about jessica hahn and bakker's sexual encounter with her and the payoff that the ministry had funded. >> for six or seven years the world doesn't know about this. jessica hahn is paid some money and told to keep quiet. she still feels like her obligation to god or to her religion is to maintain silence. about the fact that she's been abused in the way she has. >> any comments? >> i'm not going to comment. you have to leave. >> think about a secret that's so traumatic that it is beyond ptsd, and it just ate jessica alive for so long, and it was gossiped about. eventually it got exposed.
>> i'm sorry. i've got to go. >> famous evangelist jim bakker caught up in a sex scandal. >> bakker, who hosted the show with his wife tammy, admitted he paid over $100,000 in hush money to cover up an illy sit love affair. >> he said he was being blackmailed because of a sexual encounter. >> it seemed unbelievable because we know jim. we know tammy. we -- this cannot happen. it can't be true. well, eventually, it proved to be true. >> they go looking for a celebrity preacher who can step in and take bakker's place until the scandal blows over. >> i mean it was such a huge valuable ministry. that at least somebody with, with a big following and, and a
good reputation like jerry falwell could maybe step in and, and save that giant ministry. >> jerry falwell goes to palm springs, and he meets with jim and tammy. >> in the wake of the
revelations about jessica hahn, they reached out to falwell, asking him to take the helm of ptl for a while while their issues were dealt with. and jim bakker and jerry falwell go into a room in the suite alone. >> where bakker said, i'd like you to take the helm of ptl and hold it together. i need to take some time with my wife and family. and when they come out they say that they have agreed that jerry falwell will take over as head of ptl. >> i don't know what people would say now. like, "never resign?" >> jesus is the son of god. >> it's possible in 2019 he would have just tried
to tough it out. he would have just counted on his natural charisma to get him through. >> listen, our motors were on fire way before this. that ministry was not gonna survive.
we were all exhausted. jim was exhausted. tammy was exhausted. >> and that was the beginning of him turning over at least at the time, his ministry to another preacher. >> i think jim bakker always thought he would get a second coming. he would get to come back and reclaim his heritage u.s.a. >> they would start a campaign called, forgiven in the aftermath of this that i think just tells you what they were hoping would happen. that bakker would be forgiven by his followers and would be you know brought back you know and redeemed in some way. >> show time. >> jim and tammy faye sell their movie rights to a network. >> i have something to tell you i should have told you a long time ago. >> what? >> i committed adultery.
>> silly me, for a minute i was afraid this was about our taxes. >> and bernadette peters plays tammy faye, kevin spacey plays jim bakker. >> hi, we're short 100 monthly partners to meet our budget here in memphis. >> jim and tammy really need ya. >> it's funny, yet it's tragic because so many people were sucked in, taken in, gave over their money, gave over life savings, believed in these people. >> do you worry about the investigations that are going on? >> no. >> not at all. >> there's that old saying that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. and that can happen in politics, happen in business. and it can happen in christian television. >> do you worry you might go to jail? >> no. >> no. in fact, i think investigations are the best thing that could happen. >> history will prove the bakkers were honest people.
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fun. >> it's one of the few gels or products that gets rid of or cures all venereal diseases. >> this is where we are >> the ptl network presents: "the ptl club!" >> we don't know what the future holds, but i can assure you, jim and tammy some day will be helping people again. >> jim tearfully said he had sinned and he was going to take some time away and he had asked falwell to step in. >> our world right now is cloudy and dark, but god's promised to be with us in that shadowy time. >> tammy faye is going to sing a song for you. ♪ the sun will shine again oh the sun will shine again ♪ >> bakker thought he would have a shot at perhaps coming back
again, some sort of a comeback kid. >> it was not to happen. >> well, what happened was, jerry falwell came in. >> if you want to send jerry falwell on national television down the water slide, fully dressed. >> you know, he seemed to go all in. >> he went down the slide in his suit. >> i'm ready! >> and that was, that was a big moment. >> jerry falwell thinks the central problem is jessica hahn. and he thinks that that's really all there is to bakker's problems. >> we anticipate at this moment, with the information made available to us no financial crisis for this institution. we're glad for that! >> what he doesn't know is that ptl is deeply in debt, leveraged to the point of collapse. they're something like
$64 million in debt. they're bleeding $2 million a month. >> suddenly, we learned there were lots of financial issues and vendors that couldn't be paid and it was just like this tornado of problems. >> the other thing that comes to light is that bakker allegedly had a number of same-sex relationships. >> we have heard taped statements by individuals who ought to know who have stated that reverend bakker has been involved in homosexual incidents. >> and to jerry falwell, this is shocking. >> the charge of homosexuality resonated in a different way 30 years ago than it does today. back in 1987, if you accused a man of being gay, that was pretty much enough to pull the rug out from under him. >> jim, i must tell you, i would be doing a disservice to god and to the church at large to allow
you to come back here now or ever. >> what started out as a friendly takeover becomes a hostile takeover in short order. >> it's already been called a civil war and a holy war. >> i call them godfathers of the gospel. they were looking for a way to bump each other off with lies and innuendo and scandal like the mob used to do with machine guns. >> he changed his stories several times as to whether jerry came to him as the compassionate fellow minister and said, "let me help you here." and then later he said, "no, no. he stole it from me." >> to say that jerry falwell and this board stole ptl on march 17th is like accusing someone of stealing the titanic just after it hit the iceberg. >> once it's clear that jerry falwell is not gonna step aside and turn the ministry back over to jim and tammy -- >> jim needs to deal with reality, confess his sin, get right and get his life back in line. >> they go on the offensive.
>> and they do what they do best, they go on television. >> one of my officers called me and said, "don, they're rolling some tv stuff in here." i said, "who is it? one of the ladies that was out there told me it was "nightline." and i said, "we're not gonna do 'nightline.'" and they said, "well, they think they are." >> so i did everything i could do to try and stop that interview. >> just relax, there's no need to get uptight. >> good evening, i'm ted koppel and this is "nightline." >> i didn't feel like we were gonna compete with him very well. >> are you getting a slight echo back of our voice? >> no, no, i'm not at all. >> i didn't think that he was unkind, but i knew he wasn't gonna be hoodwinked, and i saw that as a problem. you just -- you can't not do.
>> the continuing saga of the ptl club has taken on the irresistible dimensions of a national soap opera. >> when it's the biggest story of the day? it's like saying, you know, would i want to sit down with donald trump today? you bet. i'll come out of retirement to do an interview. i'll come back from the grave to do the interview, you know. >> jim and tammy bakker, why in heaven's name did you agree to come on? why are you willing to talk now? >> well, we have been quiet for these many, many weeks, and it's been devastating to us, what we've been going through. >> the only question was how he was going to defend himself. >> you don't think that jerry falwell is a stupid man, do you, mr. bakker? >> no, not -- no, not at all. >> he levels charges against you, homosexuality from 1956 to the present, effectively engaging in something approaching rape with jessica hahn. >> how else could they keep jim and tammy from being restored to
their ministry unless they keep putting these charges on top of us? >> and as for the homosexual advances going back to 1956, you're saying that's a lie? >> yes, that's true, that's a lie. >> that's a lie. >> yes. we'd go back to ptl and work for nothing, if god wants that. >> yeah, well, maybe you would, but you didn't, and the fact of the matter is, not only did you not work nothing, you worked for a great deal. >> the board of directors with me out of the room always vote on our salary. tammy and i had nothing to do with our salary. >> money is so trivial, so irrelevant to them. right? >> jerry falwell, at a press conference earlier that day had brought out this little note, handwritten note from tammy faye. >> from the desk of tammy bakker. >> there was just a shopping list in which she's sort of laying out the "all right. you want us to go quietly? here's what we want."
>> jim's salary for lifetime at $300,000 per year. tammy's salary for lifetime $100,000 annually. house on the lake and furniture in it. two cars. we want a maid for one year. i don't see any concern for the welfare of this ministry in that kind of request. i see the greed that brought them down. >> and she didn't deny it. >> ted, what jerry did, he asked us what he -- we felt that, after all these years of the ministry, leaving the ministry, what we should have. and you know, when you're negotiating -- >> you start out at the top. >> wow. here they were, these poor babes in the word. lambs who had been sheared. >> god loves you. >> but when it came right down to it, they were tough negotiators. >> god loves you, he really, really does. bye bye.
>> alright, thank you both for being with us, goodnight. >> that's our report for tonight. >> it's a great moment because it helps you understand the culture that had developed at ptl where they were the royalty. they got what they wanted. >> over the years, i did 6,000 "nightlines." that was number one. not in my heart. but in terms of what had the greatest appeal to the greatest number of people. that was it. >> it's alright honey, don't cry.
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get real relief with cosentyx. >> mr. gorbachev, tear down this wall! >> the last dow jones count we have today is down 508 points. >> in the middle of other big news stories at the time it was kind of surprising to me that it was the lead story on the broadcast night after night. >> it is, in its own way, as awful, as fascinating, and as
impossible to ignore as a gigantic traffic accident. >> the nation was captivated by it. >> i don't know who to believe, only god knows. >> it got crazy in a hurry. >> you have to let the witness get through to the door! >> it was scandalous, it was gossip, it was sex. >> i am in no way using this to promote myself. >> jessica hahn was quite attractive, and she was on tv relentlessly. >> cameras are rolling, and your name is? just kidding, we know who you are. we know who you are. [ laughter ] >> jessica was this center piece of a media storm she was unprepared to handle. >> i saw her come out of her house and face that media crowd. >> it's going on two months! and it should be over with! >> and there was nobody there for her. nobody, and i hate that. >> i think that her mother and dad would serve her well to tell her to lay off the tv, lay off the front page. >> i feel very, very sorry for jessica hahn because, her reputation was dragged through the mud.
when in fact, she was the victim. >> and how does she react to that? she went in a very different direction. she was offered a lot by playboy, to pose nude. she took that money, and she was enormously popular. >> but you had to know that posing topless would stir up a lot of controversy, it would raise questions about your credibility. >> everybody claims to have a jessica hahn story. the only one that has the jessica hahn story is jessica hahn. and the pictures were my choice. i wanted to do them. i thought, i want to look in the mirror and see jessica hahn, not jim bakker, this made me feel clean. what they did made me feel filthy. >> she gets hooked up somehow with sam kinison, which if you want a snapshot of the 1980s, its sam kinison singing "wild thing."
and accompanying him is jessica hahn, billy idol, tommy lee, ratt, poison, they're all there in the video, and it's like, she belongs to us now. ♪ wild thing i think you move me ♪ jessica hahn became a big star as a result of all this. >> what jessica became in the height of that, that wasn't really her. i mean that was -- i think that was her people, created this jessica hahn. >> i feel like everyone paid a price because of this scandal. i was wrong. he was wrong. i feel like it is just time to forgive. >> in fort mills, deposed ptl leaders jim & tammy faye bakker skipped church services today. >> jim and tammy faye are in exile during this period. you know they hated it. >> this was the media story of the century. >> god doesn't want us to turn back now, we've come too far by faith. >> you had a tv preacher who was raking in millions a year, you had him living large with air conditioned dog houses and houses all over the place. >> we are overwhelmed.
>> i can't believe anybody would be that interested in us. >> so, the bakkers principal home was in a little bedroom community called tega cay. that sort of became ground zero and the media just camped outside their driveway. >> talk to us! if you talk, it will be over with. >> the good doctor would like you for you all to back up off this property. >> it was just -- it was a circus. >> it's just scary to us, to everywhere we go, to have to get through the press. excuse me, that was a bumblebee. >> we've been run off the highway, we've been cursed by the media. >> we always had microphone stands set up outside, just in case. >> the first person who starts screaming and yelling at me i'm walking down the hill. i told jim, after reading all the horrible publicity, i find i hate us, too, and i know it's not true. >> initially, people were very protective of jim and tammy faye, and they hated those of us in the media.
so it reminds me of what we see in today. >> i think you guys ought to go home, leave the bakkers alone, do something of national interest. >> woe to those who cast the first stone. woe! >> we're the problem, and that if we would just go away and mind our own business uh, things would be okay. ♪ we want to help you jim and tammy ♪ ♪ help you save your heritage u.s.a. ♪ >> she wrote her own ballad of the woes of that, that the bakkers were going through at ptl, and how jerry falwell stole the ministry from them. >> let's send falwell back to lynchburg, help the people re-build heritage usa. >> and at the same time, you also had popular culture taking a swing. >> i just want to thank all our partners for their love and support and their prayers. >> and the one gag that everybody always used was the mascara running. >> tammy, we have a bit of goop on our face. oh, i'm sorry.
was it -- i don't know. satan! >> by then government auditors had moved in and were starting to take in accounting of how deeply in debt ptl was. >> the big question was, can this organization survive? >> the reverend jerry falwell quit and took the entire ptl board of directors with him. >> it has been a good experience for us. >> falwell opened the books for the feds and suddenly, jim bakker had to get a criminal lawyer. >> but ultimately culminated in significant indictments for jim bakker and all of his lieutenants. >> tammy faye was not indicted, but that was the big talk. how could she not have known? she was wearing fur coats, she was wearing rings. >> and even after jim got into some serious legal trouble they wanted to be on tv. >> it's so nice to have you with us today. >> even though they're gone from ptl, the empire has collapsed, they start a new tv show, because what else would they do? oh, don't worry. voya helps them to and through retirement... ...dealing with today's expenses...
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i want to tell him to be a strong soldier. honey, this is for you today. don't you dare give up. hang in there! ♪ >> it has been a long road for the television evangelist jim bakker. bakker went on trial today charged with fraud and conspiracy. ♪ you're safe in his arms >> you know, we hold our heroes up. but boy when they fall, we want to jump all over it. >> it was a melee. i mean you couldn't believe how many crews were down there fighting for the interviews, fighting for the shots. >> you guys, you want a live
interview? >> i'm here because i want to see him tell his story. he's been the most maligned man that i've ever heard of. >> the man did a lot of wrong. i think he should pay the price. >> one couple showed up in jim and tammy faye masks. >> the charge was mail and wire fraud. and that has to do with going on the air and -- and essentially making a promise. >> you'll receive a special membership card that will allow you to stay here in the heritage grand for four days and three nights every year for the rest of your life. >> and then not fulfilling that promise. bakker was -- in fact was using the money for other purposes. >> i like spending money, too. i like clothes, too. i like houses. and i like cars, he ain't doing no different than me. >> bakker's trial took place in front of a stern, southern
federal judge, robert potter, whose nickname was maximum bob." >> the evidence as it unfolded on the stand was devastating. >> one of the witnesses the prosecution called was steve nelson. nelson knew that jim knew that the lifetime partnership program was oversold. as jim bakker's lawyer cross-examined steve nelson. at one point, nelson actually collapsed on the stand. >> when he fainted, it was this silence. and i was setting -- a voice from the audience came, "ooh, he's giving his life to god." and bakker's attorney called him up, "jim, jim," as if there's gonna be a miracle. he can bring him back to life. >> i looked up and saw jim bakker squatting down behind everybody and he was praying aloud. >> jim literally thought that he died. >> that really pulled the plug on his -- his grip on reality at the time. >> bakker later broke down in the hallway sobbing to his attorney not to leave him, still
visibly shaken as he left. nelson was taken to a hospital where he was treated for an intestinal illness and released. >> he's supposed to be in court. and apparently, he was in his lawyer's office. >> he later said that he was hallucinating, that the reporters outside the courtroom looked to him like giant bugs. >> he was curled up underneath his attorney's couch. i think the weight of that trial and the weight of everything that he had done, good and bad, just crushed him. >> jim bakker had a psychological breakdown. bakker and his team wanted to have him treated at a local private hospital. but judge robert potter was having none of this. and he had bakker committed to a federal prison psychiatric ward. >> it was horrific. it was sad, actually. >> move back!
>> i remember asking people, where are you taking me, where am i going? this voice said, gym, don't let them you. i remember thinking it was too late. >> it was very convincing to most people. but for those who knew the showman and the actor in jim bakker, they thought, well, this could be the best act of his life. >> i know it's a sympathy stunt. i have no compassion for him. >> quite frankly, i look at it like a piece of swiss cheese, full of holes and just as rank. >> i didn't think that was an act. i believed him. >> of course, they had to put the trial on hold. >> how you feeling mr. bakker? >> jim has been manhandled. he's been strip searched. he's been paraded. he's been treated like a freak at a carnival show. >> it was anxiety, not insanity which caused the breakdown of television evangelist jim bakker. >> looking better today mr. bakker.
>> i've got the flu. so i'm a little -- besides being in a mental institution. so i'm glad to be out of that. >> jim bakker comes back. and he actually takes the stand. it shocked everybody. >> how do you feel about testifying today? >> wonderful, thank you. >> the prosecutor had a field day, picked him apart like -- like roadkill. >> this was far and away the easiest fraud case i ever prosecuted. this was a fraud case where the fraud was on video tape. it was a lock tight case. >> i was in the courtroom. and the judge was reading off the charges. i remember that moment was just very dramatic because guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty. and it -- it just kept adding on. >> jim bakker guilty on all 24 counts of wire and mail fraud and conspiracy. >> maximum bob gave him 45 years.
>> i think you can murder somebody in this country and be out in about 10 or 12 if you're good. and here we got 45 years which was a little excessive. >> i think they sent an innocent man to prison. >> he should be free preaching the gospel. >> he should have had to live in that air-conditioned doghouse for the remainder of his life. >> we understand that they will be coming out the courtroom in just a moment. you see a rather frenzied environment behind us. here's jim bakker. >> right here. >> it's just a little pandemonium right here. >> i have a song for you. ♪ on christ the rock i stand >> it was classic tammy faye. was both empathetic, and -- and kind of pathetic, right? you don't know how to respond, except what? >> it's not over til it's over.
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and set up recurring payments to his neighbor. for cat sitting. (meow) whoa. you've groomed her, too. (cell phone vibrating) and now she's ready for the catwalk. life, lived jason's way. chase. make more of what's yours. ♪ the church of the poison arrow ♪ >> would you like to make a statement? >> i want to say i love my husband, my faith is still strong in the lord. i still feel there's nothing too hard for god. and i'm standing on christ the solid rock. >> so many really bad things happened in her life. her husband cheated on her. her husband went to federal prison.
she had her drug addiction. and i was just thinking how much can one person take, you know? >> prison is very hard on marriages. the rate of divorce is extraordinarily high. and that's exactly what happened to jim and tammy. >> another setback for the televangelist jim bakker. his wife, tammy faye, is filing for a divorce. >> people were very shocked that they got divorced. i think the big surprise is that tammy faye was the one that really -- she couldn't do it. >> shortly thereafter, she married roe messner, who had been in many ways, jim bakker's partner in building heritage usa. >> roe messner is the premiere church builder of the world already! >> after tammy got her divorce, i knew she was fair game. >> i didn't think any man would be interested in me for the
simple reason that it would mean an awful lot of publicity and most men would be very shy of that. >> tammy had a knack for marrying men who would go to prison. largely as a result of all of the financial fallout of ptl. roe messner was convicted of bankruptcy fraud, and sentenced to a few years in prison. >> i just can't afford to go a minute without using my maybelline super-thick industrial mascara. it goes on thick, stays on thick, and like a miracle, washes off quick. >> everyone did an impersonation of tammy faye. she was such an easy target. you know, just this, a clownish, you know, crying, you know, jesus-praising, overly-make-uped person. who was just kind of a buffoon. >> tammy, you -- [ crying ] >> people would sort of see her walking down the street and laugh at her. she was really a laughing stock. >> tammy faye didn't slink away because she didn't know anything else. she needed to make money. >> well, when the pitch came for this show, dan weaver is who i
met with, who was our producer. >> i said, i have in mind a co-host for you. >> a rolodex is going in my head of who it could be. >> and i said, tammy faye. >> tammy faye? i can't say what i said. she's f asterisk, asterisk, asterisk crazy. that's what i said. um, yeah. ♪ ♪ we're a recipe you can bake up ♪ ♪ three times the make up >> it was done on a shoestring. and tammy was -- just didn't understand why we couldn't have a fancier set. and she's going, "i don't understand! it looks like 'sanford and sons'!" >> there was a -- a photo shoot where they wanted her to remove her makeup and she said, "a clown never takes its makeup off." she knew that's how people remembered her.
>> i got a t-shirt that says, "i ran into tammy faye," and it had her makeup print face on it. in fact, i want that shirt. >> makeup is something i choose to do and that i can fix if i want to, and so it doesn't hurt my feelings. i just laugh with them. i think every old barn could use a little paint. >> tammy always felt insecure. i think she used her makeup um as a kind of mask to hide behind. i think people sensed that vulnerability. >> jim bakker finds the best appellate lawyer in the land, alan dershowitz. he argues that this sentence is too severe and actually wins too severe and actually wins a big reduction for jim bakker. >> and he was eventually released after serving five years of his original 45 year sentence. >> wearing a sports coat, a smile and a suntan, jim bakker barely looked like a man coming from federal prison. >> i haven't seen you in a long time!
>> former ptl chairman and exinmate has spent the last few years writing his story of the sex and fraud saga that destroyed his empire. >> you've said to friends that you wouldn't trade your prison years for anything. is that really true? >> that's true. i don't wanna go back, but i wouldn't trade them for anything. >> jim, how do i know you're not conning me now? >> you don't. only time. >> you know, one of the great fears in prison is, as we hear, being sexually attacked and you had an experience. tell us about it. >> an individual tried to rape me twice. >> well, you write of having been molested while you were a young boy and that you never told a soul and lived with that shame, yes? >> yes. i spent 40 years thinking perhaps it was my fault. and after talking it out with someone for the first time in my
life, i realized it wasn't my fault and it took going to prison to be free of something that i lived with every day of my life. >> you write that when you had to relive this experience, it made you wonder if, indeed, you were a homosexual. >> i literally asked the doctor. i said, i asked "do you think i'm gay?" and he looked at me in the eye and he said, "no. absolutely not." no. not true. >> anyone in your life? >> no. i really, really am -- am lonely. i miss tammy faye. >> do you still love tammy? >> yes. >> when i heard that jim said that, i thought, well, you know, i must have done something right in the marriage. that was a big compliment to me, that he paid me, when he said that. thank you, jim. >> will you start a new ministry? >> i don't have the need to be on television.
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>> i think the eyes are so important. >> there's a documentary called "the eyes of tammy faye," which is so beautifully done. >> she was still -- >> a pariah. >> her second husband, roe messner, was in prison. >> when we first met tammy and talked to her about making a documentary about her she was quite reluctant. she said, "i've been so abused and tormented by the media." >> thanksgiving 1998, tammy returns to heritage usa for the first time. >> if you're with tammy and you
have a camera, you just always keep the camera rolling because you never know what you're going to get. >> when we got there we actually weren't going to film because the chain was up. and she said, "oh, no, no, no. don't worry about that." and she got out of the car, and opened the gate herself. and she became really emotional. >> jim would have never allowed a chair like this, it would have been painted. >> the chairs were rusted, and it was, like, tumbleweeds even. and, her heart breaks, 'cause she put her heart, work, and soul into this place. >> and how i would love to put a fresh coat of paint on it, and make it live again. >> everyone's attitude was changed in seeing that documentary. they understood her. and not only understood her, but loved her. >> people either hate your voice
or they love it. >> there's no in between. >> one of the amazing things about tammy was -- her relationship, actually, to the gay community in general. i mean, very early on during the aids epidemic there's footage of her embracing, someone who's identified as hiv positive. at a time, back then, when, you know, people were sort of, you know suggesting people with hiv should be quarantined. >> when i was going through my worst part of my life, i was hurting so bad, it was the gay community that found me and cared about me. and i'll always love you for that. >> she contracted cancer, had a lot of really tough chemotherapy and treatments. >> you just feel different with this stuff going in you, i don't know how to explain it. >> tammy called us up and said she didn't have very long to live and she wanted us to document it. >> i'm really not a person who keeps secrets. if something goes wrong, i'm the first one to tell it.
once you put it out in the open and it's out in the open, it's honesty. it will help me to share and it will help them. >> and then the irony was that she didn't die. >> i had a wonderful doctors visit just about four days ago. every bit of the cancer is gone. i am one happy lady today. ♪ >> my name is tammy faye messner. but they would probably as tammy faye bakker, with 2 ks. >> you know she went on, and, and starred in a couple of reality tv shows. she was on "the surreal life." >> i've never seen "surreal life." maybe it's a good thing so i don't know what i'm in for. if i knew what i was in for i
probably wouldn't do it. god help me. >> i mean she was really the person who held that house together. ron jeremy, the porn star was her friend. >> i own the organ that was in frank sinatra's house. >> really? i own the organ that was in many, many movies. >> as i think often happen in tammy faye's life, people laughed at her at first. >> be yourself, be yourself in every way. >> and then by the time the show was over, said, "wow, she was like a mom to me." >> tammy faye just announced she has inoperable lung
>> i remember when i saw her on "larry king." >> i'll never forget it. i watched it live like everybody else. >> she recently reached out to us, saying that talking to her public makes her feel stronger. it's tough for us to see tammy faye looking so weak. how are you doing, dear? >> i'm doing pretty good considering the circumstances, larry. >> and it's a heart rending thing, i think it's quite understandable for people to think, "why would she do that?" and i think she was really trying to say to people, "we're all going to die. this is what it is. life is just temporary." and i think it was a very brave and selfless thing of her to do. >> now you've always been so upbeat, the feeling of god being with you. does that remain? >> that remains consistent. i talk to god every single day. and i say, "god, my life is in your hands and i trust you with me." >> she believed that when she took her last breath, that she would see the one who she loved
and talked about and sang about and cried about, which gave her not only courage, but it gave her something to smile about. >> then two days later, she died and i thought, "you know, that is just like tammy faye to go on tv and to share her experience and her suffering when she's actively dying." >> she certainly spent the money, and enjoyed that lifestyle, but there was somebody there of value, and somebody whose heart was genuine. and the people who knew her, and worked with her, understood that. >> give us a song! ♪ if life hands you lemons start making lemonade ♪ >> when life hands you a lemon, start making lemonade. literally, i know she's in heaven, but i wish that was on her stone, because that was her. she did it at every turn. she was constantly the one to look on the brighter side of life. ♪
>> so you might think jim bakker has faded into obscurity, but he's back. and he's doing what you would figure jim bakker might be doing right now. >> when you give $300 you're getting beautiful christian items. >> i never thought they would let him back on to beg for money again. >> help us stay on the air. (vo) my digestive system used to make me feel sluggish. but those days are over. now, i take metamucil every day. it naturally traps and removes the waste that weighs me down, so i feel lighter. try metamucil and begin to feel what lighter feels like. take the metamucil two week challenge and lighten up.
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>> well, they say there are no second acts in american lives, but they're wrong, because jim bakker is back on tv. >> welcome to "the jim bakker show." >> jim has a show from branson, missouri. >> he's back on tv talking about salvation and jesus, and selling a lot of stuff. >> when you give $300 you're not only getting this generator. >> only this time, jim bakker is marketing a lot of these products he's selling to what they call preppers. to people who imagine that the day of reckoning is just hours or days away. >> if the power goes out, we believe in being ready for anything. >> a lot of the food that he sells is freeze-dried food that you can buy in five gallon buckets. >> they're buying it to support his ministry. ♪ i guess you say
jim and lori help me be prepared today for end times ♪ >> from the sidekicks he's got, to his constant invocation of scripture, it's like you've gone into a time warp. ♪ oh, i've got powdered food >> only this time you're gonna have a whole lot of freeze dried food, if you happen to buy what he's selling. >> but i never thought they would let him back on. >> so we're giving this for those would give a love gift of $5. >> to beg for money again. >> it's one of the few gels or products that gets rid of all venereal diseases. >> miracle in a tube. >> why you would need to take care of that when the apocalypse was about to be upon you, i can't really say. >> and he's married to a girl named lori. >> i never got that, until you said that. >> who could be tammy's sister. >> your brain's still working, honey. >> fair. >> jim, just the other night i watched him in the middle of the night preaching with a new version of tammy faye next to
him. wow, this is where we are still. >> call right now. i need you. send some of that money. lifetime membership. 800 number. even if you send $2. and if you put it on the credit card, it'll change your life. >> this was a great story. this preacher who was so successful, it was greed and avarice that did him in. >> he was a snake and sold snake oil. >> you can get up to a million dollars of benefits for a gift of $3000. >> this was not a simple man. he knew exactly what he was doing. >> i'm not saying i'm perfect, but i'm saying not guilty of these things that we're charged with. >> i think he just felt he was godlike. he could do no wrong. >> it was a lesson for, for all of the followers and then some. >> there was enormous damage done to the whole concept of televangelism, and this kind of mass marketing of this fundamental christianity. >> sex, religion, money. we're suckers for that kind of