tv Meet the Press NBC July 4, 2022 2:00am-3:00am PDT
>> we heard shocking testimonies the that's been compared to watergate john dean. cassidy hutchinson describes nothing less than a violent coup attempt urged by the past president. mr. trump knew the mob was on and wanted to go to the hospital with them, and agreed vice president mike pence deserved to be hang. >> knives and guns and rifles and body armor >> we had three men walking down >> io overheard the president says, i don't care if they are
weapons. >> presi >> president trump was aware they were wearing body armor >> we'll walk down to the capitol. >> the president says to me, i am the effin' president, take me up to the capitol now. bobby responded, sir, we have to go back to the west wing the president reached up towards the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel, mr. angle, grabbed his arm, sir, you need to take your hands off the steering wheel we are going back to the west wing, we are not going to the capitol. mr. trump used his hand to lounge at bobby angle. >> i remember mark saying we
need to do something more, they literally calling the vice president to be effin' hung. mark responded, you heard it pat. he thinks he deserves it >> joining me now is congresswoman from california, welcome back to "meet the press. >> let me start with your simple reaction particularly from the former president and of cassidy hutchinson's testimony what do you make of that push back >> well, we always expected trump's world trying to discredit her and they are not disappointing us in that regard. i thought her testimony was credible she had nothing to gain by stepping forward and telling the truth. and trump's world has everything to lose by the truth they are doing their best trying
to attack her and discredit her. i am not surprised by this effort but it is not the right thing to do. >> can you describe the efforts the committee makes to corroborate some of the charges miss hutchinson made before she appeared did you contact secret service and other entities >> we interviewed mr. coronado many times we certainly would welcome them if they wish to do that. her testimony of the president of the then president wanted to go to the capitol is consistent with other testimonies that we have received and her testimony that directly every heard. president trump saying he did not care if they had weapons that they were not going to hurt him and they could march to the
capitol with their weapons after the speech that was new and stunning, really >> there is always cameras on the motorcade, have you gotten any footage. it is possible there is footage of the alleged incident in the suv, have you guys subpoenaed that footage whether it is from news organizations or the secret service? >> well, we'll look at everything but i think it is important to note miss hutchinson was relating a story that mr. arnado told her she was not in the vehicle, she was relaying what he told her. the important thing is no one is disputing that trump wanted to go to the capitol. he said so in his speech there is a lot of evidence when he went back to the white house. he still wanted to go to the
capitol and was certainly well aware of the violence that was going on >> you made a diplomatic response about mr. arnado about he seemed to not have a precise memory adam kinzinger said that mr. arnado likes to lie. >> it is important to know that if you lie to congress is a crime whether or not you are under oath >> was he under oath > >> it is a crime to lie to congress when you come in for an interview or a deposition. mr. arnado was a political
appointee of trump he was also appointed deputy assistant to the president he was involved and clearing the square so the president could hol hold up a bible. he was part of trump's world >> you have been hesitant to confirm or deny whether he's under oath i understand what you are saying and it is still a crime to lie to congress. is it that you are not sure whether or not he was under oath >> i believe he was under oath certainly, if he wants to come back and clarify his prior information, he'll also be under oath i think it is a mistake to focus on whether or not he was lying
to miss hutchinson when he relayed that story the president knew his crowd was armed. we heard the capitol police describing seeing assault weapons on this crowd. he wanted to go down to the capitol with them. he said that in his speech and we have a lot of evidence even when he returned to the white house. >> let me ask you about pat zipaz cipiloni, why now? >> we have been engaging with him. he did have an informal interview or discussion. that was all he was willing to do there had been ongoing discussions to see if he could come in and talk further after miss hutchinson's testimony that was so informative, it is very clear
that we would like him to come in now, i know he's concerned about executive privilege. that's not a immunity. it falls when there is something more important and that's in this case and current president, mr. biden waved most executive privilege on most occasionswhe it comes to january 6th. >> our intention is to hear from him and given the testimony of miss hutchinson that she was trying to prevent crimes being committed on that day. i would assume that he would want to come in. >> i want to get you react to this new york times' lead.
the panel did not provide them, meaning doj with videos or transcripts over taped interviews beforehand according to several officials, leaving them feeling blindsided. is that a fair characterization that you blindsided justice on this >> i don't think so. we are not an arm of the department of justice. we are legislative committee they have subpoena power, they can subpoena miss hutchinson, i am surprised they have not done so we interviewed her four times and that's publicly known at this point the fourth interview was very compelling and it is obvious she's being intimidated and people are trying to discredit her. people were trying to dissuade her through testifying
the trump's world was paying for her lawyer which was very problematic. she changed lawyers and proceeded. i was surprised that the prosecutors were surprised of what were they doing over there. they have a much greater opportunity to enforce their subpoenas than our legislative committee does >> a point some of us were discussing this morning. the last question i would throw at you is the herb of so-called witness tampering, do you feel you have enough evidence to prove that's what's happening? >> i don't know, that's chaour opportunity that we can't do we are a legislative committee if witnesses are being intimidated, we don't plan to sit by and allow it to happen. we are going to raise a stink about it and refer the
information to department of justice. it is a crime to do that >> we are going to see cassidy hutchinson testify one more time >> i don't know yet. i always leaf ve the chairman to announce the hearing >> congresswoman, thank you for coming out >> happy 4th of july >> among them, obstructing a congressional proceeding, conspiracy to defraud the united states, wire fraud and as we just were talking about possible witness tampering. joining me now is our legal analyst danny cevalas.
>> the dead last on that list is witness tampering. covering any proceeding, it does not need to be a grand jury or judicial proceeding, the witness does not have to testify the witness does not need to have firsthand knowledge this statue prevent s or criminalizes any kinds of harassment in order to prevent a witness to communicate information to law enforcement i have defended cases where the corrupt persuasion standard is in place when you look up, the definition is an improper purpose so you are right back at square one the point i make is very malleable. the government knows that. >> you need an easier case to bring in some way. >> i do. >> any time you have the corrupt
persuasion standards and appears in other statues, it makes it easy to prove them improper pu purpose. what's an improper purpose it may be information going to law enforcement. that was congress' attempt to protect witnesses. >> what about his action on january 6th? >> potentially, at least according to judge david carter had an opinion several months ago, in laying out trump and john eastman saying conspiracy and defrauding the united states or obstruct a proceeding, it was not the context of deciding that
there was no presivilege. it is not a direct effect of a probable cause finding hey, here is my take on it but it goes to whether or not privilege applied. folks pointed out correctly that this provided a basic road map for doj officials, very much like these congressional hearing providing a road map for the doj. whatever power the committee has to obtain information, the doj has super powers compare to the commi committee. >> she just said, basically more powerful subpoenas than congress does what are you guys doing? what does it tell you that a witness surprised them does it tell you that their investigation is not as thoroughly >> it tells me if that's true, hutchinson must have flown on their radar. the doj has vast ability to
investigate much more. in the last few years, we have seen what happens if a witness does not want to comply with a congressional subpoena forget it, i am not showing up it is up to congress to go through questionable abilities to enforce those subpoenas meanwhile, the doj, it enforces the subpoena and they can go to a judge and get search warrant which is more powerful they know what they are looking at >> let's take their surprise at the word that she flew under the radar. it does seem they got a lot of effort on the people when went after the capitol. they got a lot of effort on some of the far-right violent groups. they're doing something on the electorate front it does not look like they penetrated the west wing do you think that's a garland
decision >> it is a garland decision. the doj is going to be circumspect of what they have or don't have that's the only way that the doj could have been surprised. this is an institution of the doj that's built to investigate. when you see a witness testifies under oath, that's the end of the long path. the least of which reminding them that they may be in huge trouble for even lying to a federal agent. >> we know how long doj had been working on this. when do you this they feel they have enough to pursue indictments, six months away or
a year away? > >> that's always a big question, when and do they have enough the doj is designed to investigate, since their inception, they do not let you know they don't give you a status report on where they are on investigations they remain silent >> kind of like lawyers. like you telling us hey, this happens and this >> people who may have been targets, they may never have known. that's how secretly they are so this whole part about the cassidy hutchinson, shocking the doj, that may be a little bit of a spin on their part it has to be because if she was anywhere on the radar, the doj would have b it. it would have been over ittheirt makes you wonder danny cevallos, thank you.
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watch this. i still don't get it. save up to 25% when you bundle home and auto with allstate. click or call for a quote today. . our security jeh johnson and sotomayor with "the washington post." matthew, let me start with you, is this the one? is this week the one >> no. >> there is been so much smoke from these smoking guns over six years that it clouds your eyes there is questions about the testimonies of hutchinson. it is still a long way from her testimony to getting merrick garland to file charges against
the former president of the united states. while i think this is a reminder to the country of donald trump's impeachable action after the election of 2020 >> anything changing for trump >> there is so much space between those things when you see people like the washington kexaminers coming out he should not be president republicans were always comfortable saying privately on texts than on television that this is a bad thing. the thing indi dispute here is grabbing a steering wheel. he wanted to go to the capitol to lead the rioters. >> have you heard from republicans uietly, all right, i am out from that end >> oh no, i was texting a couple of aides who are still very
close to trump and everyone is pushing it aside before trump sit on his social media platform, cassidy hutchinson, none of these is true these aides are already saying that >> no one is paying atetention o this if you ask for '24, what it means for trump running. >> it is easy for them to say this >> i have to begin with this, while a lot of men are hiding under their desks and offices, this hearing has been a profile encouraged among women caroline edwards, cassidy hutchinson and liz cheney. this hearing has been choreographed exceptionally well for the tension span for the
average american of 2022 i am concerned as the former federal prosecutor that gives you a lot of credit on these days i am concerned that the committee may have overeach it was second here say >> the fact that the pres president -- take a listen to how he characterized it. >> this lady yesterday, she says i jumped from a car and started strangling a secret service agent who i know very well, i
grab the steering wheel at a car? and i wanted guns in a rally i don't want guns. >> finding a specific things he can deny and cast out on everything >> her that. if ali vitali tells me that chuck todd hit him, i want to know what matt says about that evidence. >> under oath. >> the committee knows something that the rest of us don't know before i went out at the second h hearsay, i want to know what the firsthand witness had to say >> it is a third hand account. >> it depends on how you
interpret it >> secret service agents don't talk about what they see or hear from their protectives >> well, lawmakers were briefed late on what the cassidy hutchinson's testimony were going to be. the rank and file committee were briefed late on this there was discussions on whether or not this key detail should have been included now, they're at a point that this is out there. we know people like liz cheney really wanted to push the envelope of what the committee includes this is one of those headline-grabbing details. it is fair to wonder whether or testimony would have been as shocking as it was i would argue it would have been even if you didn't have the few details of what happened in the limo the committee don't want you to
miss the furthest from the tree. >> that he kept on urging and the secret service had to tell him no, no, no, it is the same with allegations >> this hearing in particular but all the hearings have riveted, the question is, is it getting beyond the belt way? when you look at the republican party, the voters, they are slowly less enthusiastic of donald trump in 2024 it is a more function of time and looking for something new than all of these salacious details on the committee >> it is a bad idea for you to run again than to directly deal with this. >> exactly >> a lot of aides right now are wondering when if trump decides the run, when does he want to announce it? >> when ever the indictment comes down >> they don't want him to talk about this any point in time ahead of the midterm
he's a lieability. they don't want a random announcement by trump because he can be a liability to a lot of swing voters >> the irony is that if republicans fail, it is all donald trump's fault directly or in directly. how he got involved in primaries for bad candidates and you can argue roe v. wade in direct way and obviously january 6th. >> think about the georgia's special election on january 5th, 2021, right? donald trump is not a political winner for the republican party and many republicans don't seem able to accept that. >> jeh, i am curious of this dispute of the committee and justice. if justice - >> the dispute between congress and the department of justice is not new.
any incident that's investigated by both branches is always a fight of who gets to go first and whether or not the committee had to turn overall the testimonies and so forth they're not focused on this. >> a long way to go. >> or they have a long way to go >> always makes sense why they want the committee's transcripts, right >> sure. >> they're focused now i am certainly they are focused now. >> we are going to pause there is the biden administration fighting hard enough to secure abortion rights? not according to many democrats. i am going to talk to our hhs secretary becera when we come back and lost some weight. announcer: ozempic® provides powerful a1c reduction. in studies, the majority of people reached an a1c
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>> is there any avenue that you can find to expand abortion rights in places that's going to be taken away? >> chuck, if you look at our laws and the way we administer them when the supreme court speaks, most of all are going to say words o f the supreme court may no longer have values. we have to heed the words of the supreme court. we'll continue to find every means possible to make sure women have the care they need including abortion care. >> let's talk about the proposa that got shutdown quickly, maybe temporary clinics or federal land and let the courts say no and instead try it did you guys look into this at all?
>> i think we are continuing to export everything that's out there. the difficulty is that simply because it is an idea does not mean it could go out in practice what we want to make sure is we could put things in practice you have people right now in need of abortion care services we are going to do what we can to give people something as quickly as we can, even though it may not be everything they like we want to make sure we are providing everything we can. >> one of the things that may c strengthen is access to abortion what action can you take to speed up the process >> what we want to make sure of the medication abortion is currently available in america continues to be such that can be accessed by those who needed
most we'll continue to protect those federally required aspects of medication abortion and we'll do everything we can where it is possible in terms of emergency care to make sure that women have access to the services they need >> you said something to my colleague kate snow about transporting women to other states, was something hss would take the lead on have you looked into that or can you do it? >> we are exploring opportunities to work with others, if a woman trying access that care that she needs will be supported of that. we are one of those partners >> what are you looking to see, is it a legal question what is it that you are concerning about >> all of the above. we have to make sure that we have the resources to do it and authorities allow us to do it.
>> it is interesting you said confine of the laws. one of the hallmark of the conversations was -- many democrats say make the court stop you and try this and get caught trying whether it is on federal land or transportation, it sounds like you got a directive from the president that says don't push the envelope, is that fair >> i think it is just the opposite, the president's first announcement said he was tasking us at hss taking on a number of issue. he had asked us to seek aggressive strategy as we can. we do unlike the previous administration, we do intend to respect the law. >> what do you tell your former congressional colleagues i look at things you guys are
doing, there is not much you guys can do. it is pretty clear because you don't want to get outside the law. what do you tell these congressional democrats feeling like the party is not fighting hard enough? >> i tell them give us some ideas and we'll explore everything we can and ask them to pass the law. they have it in their power, if they can find the votes to codify the roe's decision, which is what we need, executive action and do as much as we can. when you are stripped of a right as the supreme court just done to every woman of child-bearing age is tough to over ccome it took us
>> was this something that folks really at risk that's why it was never brought up >> to know that nothing is ever totally safe, remember we still have not been able to pass the equal rights amendment this country has a way to go, but certainly i don't believe this decision -- this is just not america. we are not about taking rights most people around the world
have n look at the u.s. the as a beacon of rights. i am confident that we are going to get pass this just for now we have five justices on the supreme court have made life difficult and some cases impossible for women. >> this has to be done legislatively, there is no other way to fix this? >> well, the court is the court. the court can undo the injustice that visited upon millions of women. i don't expect five justices in this court to do that. the next best route is to pass a lot of codify road >> secretary becerra appreciate you coming on happy 4th. >> thank you. clarence thomas suggests the supreme court may reconsider otherwise, like same-sex marriage it may not be so easy politically, stay with us. and l on different systems.
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many are wondering what could be next. jus justice thomas wondered himself. reversing that decision won't be easy as it would land among the public that's rapidly involved on that issue. as you can see at the start of the century, support for same-sex marriage was below 52%. 55% were against it and all the battle initiatives, that was the george bush reelection then what you saw slow glagreemn
of it. president obama endorses it. after it is legal, it shoots up to 71. the legalization of same-sex marriage appeared to make more people comfortable identifying honestly about what they are in 2012, 3.5% of the country identified as lgbtq. for instance, among gen z, 20% of gen z identified as some sort of -- those living more in a world of legal same-sex marriage is likely to be comfortable of identifying something other than heterosexual you can see the changes there. just to give you a break down.
30% are in under under 35%, you see nearly a quarter is under 35% and the number gets lower. that's what's happening here as the longer same-sex marriage is illegal, the more comfortable many americans are identifying publicly when we come back, some democrats are saying president biden may want to think about not running in 2024. you know who's not listening joe biden. back in a moment ♪♪ ♪♪ take the world by cloud. accenture let there be change.
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can energize democrats in a way that joe biden has not it is still not helping joe biden. >> you are asking me the political question so, i think that voters are just and this is probably a hangover for the trump's year this is in a cranky move of whoever is the leader this year. we are not happy of all the things that's happening around us and we kind of blame the person in charge right now on abortion, i think that rather than crafting legislation to somehow codify roe, roe was a constitutional right for 50 years. congress should devote its energy to, it has claiming the power to regulate interstate commerce that's in the constitution so that we make it plainly
available for any woman in state a wanting to go to state b to get an abortion. she's free to do so and congress can regulate and legislate that. >> you are nodding your head >> that's achievable and you can point at the constitution. i want to say one thing, it is not just the voters are cranky things are bad we had record inflation and record poor performance in the stock market and consumer sent sentiment plunging the economy is still the number one issue in voters mind they tie this policies to joe biden. it is different in senate gubernatorial voter races where voter can make decisions based on candidates' attribute >> there is corey bush, just
vote, vote your problems away. they're looking at us, well, we already voted for you. charlie crist, frustration requires for action and there is no venting for it. >> i think that's what i hear the most from my sources on the hill as well as an advocacy group. yes, congress and the white house is pretty head strong to protect women's right to access this healthcare. they want them to do something at the state level whether it is on federal land and the governor is asking about this again today. the idea that they want to push the envelope on this to a point where okay, if it does end up in a court some where, at least democrats are trying i would make the point that as much as republicans want to continue to point to this as a moment of economics, abortion is
an economic issue for women across the country women are frustrated and enraged. >> there is another tone that i thought secretary becerra took it is clear this is coming we are not going to push the envelope we are not going to do what those guys did we are going to restore the institutions i know a lot of democrats are doing, stop doing it >> 100%. and especially from progressives since last friday we are outside of the supreme court, basically saying just that promising women who were there >> how many times trump tried to build his wall >> a zillion >> and house republicans in the senate also tried to do that the house democrats are going to try to respond under this. they have the majority they're looking at things like can a woman not be charged, penalized for going getting an
abortion that's something they'll vote on this coming month. reproductive data on apps, exactly. they're going to try to put republicans on the record to codify a number of different things, gay rights, birth control. again, it is going to die in the senate >> there is concerns that i heard some who say yes, we want to do a vote on rape and incest, there is a concern if they did that in the senate as they try to make it as an issue, it is going to make some republicans and giving them the opportunity to look rational on this and not as extreme as democrats want them to be >> democrats can seek extreme and abortion when you-- americans want to ha abortion access in the early stages of pregnancy but they want to increasingly regulate as you get closer to term
that's something democrats need to be aware of as well >> this is the problem with washington, its got to be about more than energizing the base. focus on the things that are doable to protect tha woman's ae to have an abortion in state where it is so frightening there are things that congress can do to go from point a to point b. all right, let me switch a little bit about this year of joe biden, jeh, i will take you a first crack. joe biden feels upset and he feels he's being disrespected. they never really given me respect, they did not want me to run in '15 and look at what happened and '20 now they don't want me to run in '24, does he have a point >> in a sense, yes
i don't know that and this is just instincts i don't know if joe biden made up his mind to run in 2024 i am sure at some point he's going to have that conversation with his family, my advise would be unconventional. if you are not running, make that announcement smooth. >> it open the flood gates >> when it gives others the opportunity and to get organize for 2024 do the opposite of what donald trump going do do. >> ali, where is most of this coming from? i don't sense it coming from congress it comes from governors and then it goes to the president >> of course, it would i do think there is some around the idea that biden came in restoring the institutional norms, maybe we are going through the january 6th hearing and the economy looks the way it
does, there is this feeling that you promised me it would be normal and this does not feel like a normal i want to accept certainly we are post normal i think though and i am not saying this because i have a book coming out of this. it feels like there is an agitating moment for defemale leadership right now people look to the fact that kamala harris is the vice president and there are female leaders in the party that could be part of it, too. >> it is time for hot dogs and fire woks works and all sorts of things that's all we have today thank you for watching and please enjoy your independence weekend. remember what it is all about. we'll be back next week because if it is sunday, it is "meet the press.
outrage in ohio. protests explode after new police body camera footage shows a black man dying in a hail of bullets after officers say he opened fire at them from his moving car the growing calls for answers this morning red, white and fuming. whether you're flying or hitting the roads this fourth of july, prepare to pack your patience. the coast-to-coast travel headaches to watch out for today. don't let the fur fly along with the fireworks tonight, and how to protect your pup this