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tv   60 Minutes  CBS  September 29, 2013 7:00pm-8:01pm PDT

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captioning funded by cbs and ford >> pelley: syria's the problem from hell. there don't seem to be any good solutions. >> well, we have a lot of problems from hell right now. >> pelley: secretary of state john kerry is responsible for handling some of america's most precarious problems, but this week he helped achieve what appeared impossible. we were with him at the u.n. when he struck a deal for the surrender of syria's chemical weapons and when he started the talks that could diffuse iran's nuclear threat. rouhani said he'd like to have a deal in three to six months. is that possible? >> sure it's possible. >> basically all my voices i have are just thoughts, just voices telling me to harm myself or harm other people or kill people. and that's why i think i need to get on medication, because i
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don't want to hurt anyone and because i know it's violent. >> kroft: that's mostly true. the overwhelming majority of people with schizophrenia aren't violent, but as you'll see tonight, half of the mass killings in this country were committed by people with severe mental illness and who were not being treated for it, and there are millions more of them out there. >> all of the ideas come to me in the middle of the night, and one night i just woke up and went, killing jesus. and i believe because i'm a catholic that comes from the holy spirit, my inspiration comes from that, and so i wrote "killing jesus" because i think i was directed to write that. >> o'donnell you believe the holy spirit directed you the write "killing jesus"? >> yes, i believe that. >> o'donnell why would the holy spirit choose you? >> you're asking me to speculate about the deity. >> i'm steve kroft. >> i'm lesley stahl.
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>> i'm morley safer. >> i'm lara logan. >> i'm norah o'donnell. >> i'm scott pelley. those stories tonight on the 46th season premier of "60 minutes." ♪ nice car. sure is. make a deal with me, kid, and you can have the car and everything that goes along with it. [ thunder crashes, tires squeal ] ♪ ♪ so, what do you say? thanks... but i think i got this. ♪ [ male announcer ] the all-new cla. starting at $29,900. [ male announcer ] the all-new cla. if you've got it, you know how hard it can be to breathe and man, you know how that feels. copd includes emphysema and chronic bronchitis. spiriva is a once-daily inhaled copd maintenance treatment that helps open my obstructed airways for a full 24 hours.
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and the leader of the american team was secretary of state john kerry. he spent last week at the u.n. and we were with him as war and peace hung in the balance. on syria, the u.s. and russia finally agreed on a u.n. security council resolution to force the syrian dictator bashar al-assad to give up his chemical weapons. tonight, there are still many question-- is the iranian opening real? how did the u.s. make a deal with the russians? and what if assad reneges on turning over his arsenal? >> john kerry: assad has to always know that if he plays games or if he varies from this or if he doesn't comply, and if ultimately the security council gets stuck again and refuses to enforce-- then, the united states always reserves its prerogatives with respect to its national security interests. >> pelley: but is this idea of the use of force credible anymore?
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after the enormous opposition you saw from the congress and from the american people, no one believes that the president would go ahead and use force in syria. >> kerry: i can assure you this president of the united states is not going to take off the table unilaterally any prerogative that a commander-in- chief has. and no one should doubt that. >> pelley: the president wants to punish syria for august 21, when, the u.s. says assad's forces used nerve gas to kill 14 hundred citizens, part of a civil war that has killed 100,000 and left four million homeless. >> kerry: i believe assad has lost all moral authority by which any person governs a nation. how can you gas your own people? how can you lob missiles for two years into universities and hospitals and kill innocent women and children, and then turn around and say, "i'm the guy who ought to govern you"? >> pelley: but this is the man
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you're trying to make a deal with on the chemical weapons. if you get that deal, you need him to stay in power. >> kerry: there are two fundamental reasons why assad made this deal. one is the threat of force by president obama. there's no question in my mind that without president obama's willingness to take a strike, assad would never have taken seriously the notion that he was threatened. and number two, the russians. the russians made a huge difference here. we thank them and congratulate them. the russians actually weighed in heavily with assad, and he knew that one of his principal patrons was saying, "you've got to do this." >> pelley: the development of the syria policy has confused a lot of people. on august 30, you came out and made a full-throated argument for a military strike. >> kerry: my friends, it matters here if nothing is done. >> pelley: the next day, the president said, "well, wait a minute. i'm going to ask congress for its authorization." it seemed in that moment that
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the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing. >> kerry: not in the least. not in the least. the president came out and announced to the american people, "i've made a decision." that's leadership. he said, "i believe we need to have a strike." but he also, exercising his judgment about how the nation ought to make this kind of decision, felt it was the right thing to do to include the congress after many congresspeople in our consultation said, "hey, you ought to come to us. you ought to make sure you consult us." so, the president did that. and i think that was the appropriate decision. >> pelley: was there no tension between the two of you? you had gone and spoken around the world about how the united states had to take military action. and then the president, it appeared, left you twisting in the wind. >> kerry: scott, let me... that's mythology and... hypothe... i mean, believe me, there was not an ounce of tension in this.
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i thought the president made a courageous decision, not necessarily the easiest way to get to the goal that he was achieving, but a courageous decision, and one in keeping with the constitution of the united states. and yes, tough debate in the congress. because we're living through an enormous iraq hangover. the american people felt betrayed by what happened in iraq. the evidence wasn't there. weapons of mass destruction weren't there. so, we approached this learning that lesson. and all of us, the intelligence community, the president, the entire white house staff, state department bent over backwards to make sure we were building a case that could not be punctured. >> pelley: despite the case, the president faced opposition. he seemed damned if he did, damned if he didn't, until something unexpected. the apparent
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breakthrough on syria came during a news conference when the cbs news state department correspondent margaret brennan asked you a question. >> brennan: is there anything at this point that his government could do or offer that would stop an attack? >> kerry: sure. he could turn over every single bit of his chemical weapons to the international community in the next week. turn it over, all of it. >> pelley: was the answer to that question as seat-of-the- pants as it appeared, or did you walk into the room intending to say something like that? >> kerry: i didn't walk into the room intending to say it, because i didn't know what question i was going to be asked. but i certainly answered it purposefully and intentionally. and margaret brennan asked a terrific question. it was a good question. it deserved an honest answer. >> pelley: the answer exposed what had been a private russian proposal. vladimir putin, syria's ally, told president obama syria might surrender its chemical arsenal. kerry went to geneva to work on details with russian foreign
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minister sergei lavrov. in geneva, you were supposed to be going into a formal meeting with your counterpart foreign minister lavrov. but instead, you surprised him at the swimming pool at the hotel. what was that all about? why did you make that choice? and what did you get out of that, if anything? >> kerry: well, we got an agreement out of that. i just thought that-- it was a moment for a little different kind of diplomacy and-- it'd be a little more personal and human about it. and he was out there, and i took advantage of it. and we just had a relaxed conversation by the pool. sometimes those things just work better than getting everybody in the room and getting into formal mode. >> pelley: and you-- you sat down there by the pool and said, "now, look..." >> kerry: pretty much. >> pelley: "...let's do this deal." >> kerry: "let's get at it." well, in between each of us fighting for a word, yeah. >> pelley: we noticed his informal side in geneva when kerry couldn't hear the translation of a lavrov statement. >> kerry: can you give me the last part of the translation please?
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>> sergei lavrov ( translated ): it was okay, john, don't worry. >> pelley: he said, "it was okay, john, don't worry." >> kerry: you want me to take your word for it? it's a little early for that. kerry's next challenge is to try to start general peace talks to end the syrian civil war. >> pelley: mr. secretary, 100,000 people are dead. the rebels are killing each other because there's so much disagreement among the rebel groups. how could you possibly get all of those people around a peace table and come up with a kind of compromise that you envision? >> kerry: by having assad make the decision, if he really cares about his country, that he will not run again. if he were to make that decision, entire ingredients of syria would change overnight. i mean, look, this isn't easy. i wish there were a better way. could i snap my fingers and say, "so-and-so won't be fighting so- and-so"? that would be wonderful. but it doesn't happen that way. i agree with you, 100,000 people it's-- it's beyond a human
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tragedy. there will be more. there'll be another 100,000 if we don't work to bring people to the table and try to get a peaceful resolution. >> pelley: as we followed kerry over two weeks, we found him a "hands on" diplomat, literally. during the general assembly, the state department sets up its headquarters at the waldorf astoria hotel. and in a hall, we saw a sign of the secretary's crushing schedule. they carry, in alphabetical order, the flags to be set up with each foreign dignitary he meets. there were 59 meetings in five days. likely the most important of them all was this, kerry next to the iranian foreign minister-- the highest level face-to-face talks since the hostage crisis 33 years ago.
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iran's new president hassan rouhani said last week he will open his nuclear program to inspection if the u.n. will lift crippling economic sanctions. >> kerry: iran needs to take rapid steps, clear and convincing steps, to live up to the international community's requirements regarding nuclear programs, peaceful nuclear programs. >> pelley: give me an example, one concrete step, one thing that they can do to assure the world that they're giving up their ambitions. >> kerry: they could immediately open up the inspection of the fordow facility, a secret facility underground in the mountains. they could immediately sign the protocols, the additional protocols of the international community regarding inspections. they could offer to cease voluntarily to take enrichment above a certain level, because there's no need to have it at a higher level for a peaceful program. >> pelley: enrichment of uranium, which is what happens at fordow. >> kerry: correct. >> pelley: throw the doors open to that place.
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>> kerry: well, that, among other things. look, i believe that we have hopes. president obama clearly welcomes president rouhani's overtures. but words are not going to replace actions. what we need are actions that prove that we and our allies, our friends in the region, can never be threatened by this program. >> pelley: but the united states would look favorably on relaxing or eliminating the sanctions if the iranians were serious about abandoning their nuclear weapon. >> kerry: well, the united states is not going to lift the sanctions until it is clear that a very verifiable, accountable, transparent process is in place, whereby we know exactly what iran is going to be doing with its program. and if it does, of course. >> pelley: rouhani said he'd like to have a deal in three to six months. is that possible? >> kerry: sure, it's possible. it's possible to have a deal sooner than that-- depending on how forthcoming and clear iran
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is prepared to be. we need to have a good deal here. and a good deal means that it is absolutely accountable, failsafe in its measures to make certain this is a peaceful program. if it is a peaceful program, and we can all see that-- the whole world sees that-- the relationship with iran can change dramatically for the better and it can change fast. >> pelley: a month ago both diplomatic breakthroughs would have seemed impossible. but now the hard part begins. will iran truly open its program? will syria stick to the deal? and with a nation weary of war how far is the u.s. willing to go? the entire world watched this debate in the united states about whether we would attack syria and saw the opposition to that idea.
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for our friends and foes around the world who now believe that the u.s. military is sidelined, you would say what? >> kerry: the united states military is far from sidelined. we will continue to stand up for our interests in every part of the world where we have articulated them, and i'll give you an example. the president of the united states has made it crystal clear, iran will not have a nuclear weapon. now, we want to solve that problem peacefully. we are grateful to president rouhani and to the supreme leader for their expression that they, too, want to resolve this. and by far, that is the preferential way to proceed. but no one in the world should misinterpret this president's preparedness or any willingness of the congress of the united states to protect the security interests of the united states.
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>> kroft: the mass shooting at the washington navy yard two weeks ago that resulted in the deaths of 13 people, including the gunman, was the 23rd such incident in the past seven years. it's becoming harder and harder to ignore the fact that the majority of the people pulling the triggers have turned out to be severely mentally ill, not in control of their faculties and not receiving treatment. in the words of one of the country's top psychiatrists, these were preventable tragedies, symptoms of a failed mental health system that's prohibited from intervening until a judge determines that someone presents an "imminent danger to themself or others." the consequence is a society that's neglected millions of seriously ill people hidden in plain sight on the streets of our cities, or locked away in our prisons and jails.
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there is something eerily similar about the shooters, as if they were variations of the same person: all young males, often with the same glazed expression, loners who exhibited bizarre behavior and withdrew into their own troubled world. they're often portrayed as villains. but dr. e. fuller torrey says their deeds have much more to do with sickness and health than good and evil. >> dr. e. fuller torrey: every person i've taken care of, and i've taken care of several hundred of these people, had a very good reason for doing what looked to be crazy behavior. but in their mind, it wasn't crazy behavior. it was in response to something that was very logical, that their voices were telling them; or that their delusions were telling them. >> kroft: dr. torrey is one of the most famous psychiatrists in the country, an expert on severe mental illness, and a staunch critic of the way the country deals with it. >> kroft: how much of these terrible incidents that we've had, these mass shootings, is traceable to deficiencies in the mental healthcare system? >> torrey: well, they're directly related.
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about half of these mass killings are being done by people with severe mental illness, mostly schizophrenia. and if they were being treated, they would've been preventable. for example, five weeks before the shooting at the washington navy yard, the gunman, aaron alexis, told police that he was hearing voices and being bombarded by strangers with a microwave machine. if he had been transported to a psych ward, the shootings might never have happened. in 2007, virginia tech student seung-hui cho was behaving so irrationally that a court ordered him to seek mental health care. the order was never carried out. cho killed himself and 32 others. and before james holmes dressed up as the joker and shot 70 people in a movie theatre, campus police at the university of colorado had been warned that he was potentially violent. holmes had been a brilliant graduate student there studying the inner workings of the brain, until something suddenly went wrong with his.
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dr. jeffrey lieberman, who is president of the american psychiatric association, says it's not that unusual. >> dr. jeffrey lieberman: you can be the most popular student, you can be the valedictorian of your class. and if you develop schizophrenia, it will change the functioning of your brain and change the nature of your behavior. >> kroft: you could be completely normal at age 20, perhaps a good student or a gifted student and a solid citizen, and at 21 or 22 be psychotic? >> lieberman: absolutely. >> kroft: dr. lieberman, who runs the psychiatry department at columbia university's medical school, says that schizophrenia has a genetic component and tends to run in families, affecting the way the circuits in the brain develop. you can see the structural abnormalities in a brain scan. >> lieberman: and you see people, a young adult, with a normal brain, same age with, who has schizophrenia, and you see
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that -- that degenerative process has already begun. >> kroft: this is really a disease of the brain. not a disease of the mind? >> lieberman: absolutely. it lies dormant during childhood and usually emerges in late adolescence and early adulthood, affecting perception and judgment. people see things that aren't there and hear voices that aren't real. >> kroft: what's the nature of these voices and what do they say? >> lieberman: usually it's multiple voices, talking about them in the third person, as if they're not there. they may be saying, "you're a horrible person. everybody hates you. the only way that you can justify yourself is to lash out at them." >> kroft: how strong are the voices? >> lieberman: when they're at their worst the person can't distinguish the voices from their illness and they think the voices are part of them, and if they tell them what to do, they'll follow it. >> jacob bowman: i hear a voice. it's a man's voice and it's really, really deep. it's a really deep and scary man's voice... >> kroft: schizophrenia is more
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common than you might think. several million americans have it. 17-year-old jacob bowman has been struggling with it for a couple of years. >> bowman: this is basically me on a bad day, i guess. because i can't think straight. my thoughts are racing really, really fast. >> kroft: he's dropped out of high school, lives at home under the watchful eyes of his parents, and rarely goes out because he thinks people are trying to kill him. he spends much of his time on social media-- we found him on youtube-- where he shares his world with other young people who have the same symptoms. he wants them to know that they're not alone and that the voices and hallucinations are not real. >> bowman: basically, all my voices i have are just thought, just voices telling me to harm myself or harm other people or kill people. and, that's why i think i need to get on medication because i don't want to hurt anyone. and because i know schizophrenics aren't violent.
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>> kroft: and he's mostly right. the vast majority of people with schizophrenia never show any signs of violence. mike robertson was 19 years old and away at college when he was diagnosed three years ago. >> mike robertson: i felt like there was people around me, like, bad people or nice people. >> kroft: even when there was nobody there. >> robertson: yeah. and that's what really, that's what really got to me. >> linda doran: he told me over the phone, "i feel like i'm going insane. i swear there is a bug in my head and i just want to tear at my eyes and my skin and my scalp to get it and get it out of there so i don't have to hear it anymore." very scary. >> kroft: michael's mother, linda doran, brought him back to california and got him into treatment, which consists of regular therapy sessions and daily doses of heavy duty anti- psychotic drugs that stabilize him and help control the symptoms. >> robertson: clozapine.
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it's an anti-psychotic. haloperidol. cogentin or benztropine. fluvoxatine or prozac, lorazepam for anxiety. >> kroft: they often leave him listless or groggy, which is one of the reasons people with severe mental illness often stop taking them. a lot of people with your illness say the drugs make them feel worse. they just hate it. >> robertson: yeah. i can see that with the side effects. but it's better than having schizophrenic symptoms. >> kroft: what worries you the most? >> doran: the future and the future without myself being here. because i am mike's caregiver. i am his advocate. and so if i am not here who will be. >> kroft: it is a serious concern and a sobering thought, because it's estimated that half the seven million people in the country with schizophrenia and other forms of severe mental illness are not being treated at all. >> duanne luckow: this is day 10 now of my fast. so i'm feeling really, really good. >> kroft: duanne luckow is one of them. he has spent the past three years on and off the street and
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in and out of jails and mental institutions, but he doesn't acknowledge that there is anything wrong and has refused treatment. he's been recording the events in his life to prove that he is sane and that the rest of the world is out to get him. >> do you have a gun at home? >> luckow: do i have a gun at my home? yes, i have a gun at my home. >> okay. so it's a true statement. >> kroft: there's a confrontation with police at his parents' home... and this full- blown psychotic episode on the top of multnomah falls in oregon, in which he threatens to go over the side. >> luckow: i come from the planet of pluto! i'm here to protect this planet! i'm here to bring justice about! there is no justice. this planet is entirely corrupt! the fbi wanted to screw around with me! they didn't want to give me my atm cards! >> sandra luckow: it really feels as though he's on the edge. it's pretty scary. >> kroft: duanne gave the footage to his sister, sandra luckow, a documentary filmmaker who teaches in new york. >> duanne luckow: may the truth be known! >> kroft: she spent years trying to help him. >> sandra luckow: on a certain
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level, this would make him crazy to think that the very thing that he thinks is going to exonerate him shows how crazy he is. >> kroft: did you have trouble getting him treatment? >> sandra luckow: (laughs) yes. yes. a tremendous amount of trouble getting him treatment. >> kroft: she is no longer sure where her brother is now, and has kept her distance ever since he sent her a threatening email. >> sandra luckow: he said that someone was gonna come to my apartment with an ar-15 and hollow point bullets and spatter my brains all over my apartment. >> kroft: has he ever been violent? >> sandra luckow: not that i know. >> kroft: but you think it's possible? >> sandra luckow: sure. >> ( screams ) >> kroft: 50 years ago, someone like duanne luckow would have ended up in a place like this, involuntarily committed to one of the big state-run hospitals that were used to warehouse the seriously mentally ill. documentaries like frederick wiseman's "titicut follies" helped expose the dehumanizing
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conditions and led to reforms. one by one, the big asylums were shut down, and over time, a half-million inmates were released into communities to fend for themselves. they were supposed to be housed in residential treatment centers, medicated, and supervised by case workers at walk-in clinics. but the programs were never adequately funded. >> torrey: what we did is, we emptied out the hospitals. and on any given day now in the united states, half of the people with schizophrenia and other severe mental illnesses are not being treated. >> kroft: how difficult is it to get somebody admitted who does not want to be admitted? >> torrey: almost impossible in most states. the laws will read, "you have to be a danger to yourself or others," in some states. and judges may interpret this very, very strictly. you know, we kiddingly say, "you have to be either trying to kill your psychiatrist, or trying to kill yourself in front of your psychiatrist, to be able to get hospitalized." >> kroft: if these people aren't receiving medical attention, where are they ending up? >> torrey: many of them end up
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homeless. many of them end up in jails and prisons now. so this is a huge problem. our jails and prisons are our main place now where you find mentally ill people. >> kroft: in fact by some measures, the largest mental institution in the united states is the cook county jail in chicago. it houses the largest number of mentally ill people in the country. >> tom dart: this is a population that people don't care about and so as a result of that there are not the resources to care for them. >> kroft: cook county sheriff tom dart is in charge of the jail and he is not very happy about the situation. >> dart: i've got probably 2,500, 2,800 people with mental illness in my jail today. and you look at their backgrounds, they've been in here 50, 60, 100, we have some people who've been in here 400 times. >> kroft: what kind of offenses? >> dart: oh my god, retail theft is a norm. and usually it's because they're stealing something either to feed themselves or, frankly, they're stealing something because they just wanted it that second. loads of cases of criminal trespass to land.
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what's that? they're breaking in some place to sleep. >> kroft: you're saying the prisons and the jails are the new asylums? >> dart: absolutely. there is no person that could argue otherwise that the jails and prisons are the new insane asylums. that's what we are. >> what the...? wait! don't spray me! >> kroft: sheriff dart has told guards and employees to videotape incidents so that he can show people what actually goes on here. >> dart: and the videos we've shown people are to show them what happens when we take people who are mentally ill and we cram them into the criminal justice system where they're not supposed to be. and the irony so deep that you have a society that finds it wrong to have people warehoused in a state mental institution, but those very same people were okay if we warehouse 'em in a jail. it's just, you've got to be kidding me. >> elli montgomery: were you ever diagnosed with depression or bipolar disorder? >> yeah, a long time ago. >> kroft: every day, elli montgomery, one of five social workers here, goes over the list
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of new inmates with mental illness. >> montgomery: we have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7... 15 with a severe mental illness. >> kroft: just this morning? >> montgomery: yeah, just this morning. severely mentally ill. not like a little bit of depression. >> kroft: most of them will be here for several days to several months, then released back on the street with a packet of pills and no plan. sheriff dart says it's become a huge public safety issue. there's been an epidemic of mass shootings. a lot of them by people with serious mental health problems. do you think there's a connection? >> dart: yes, i do think there are connections here because people... some are getting treated. other ones aren't getting treated. people are falling through the cracks all the time. and so to think that that won't then boil up at some point and end up in a tragedy, that's just naiïve. that's just naïve. >> torrey: we have a grand experiment: what happens when
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you don't treat people. but then you're gonna have to accept 10% of homicides being killed by untreated, mentally ill people. you're gonna have to accept tucson and aurora. you're gonna have to accept cho at virginia tech. these are the consequences, when we allow people who need to be treated to go untreated. and if you are willing to do that, then that's fine. but i'm not willing to do that. >> welcome to the cbs sports update presented by pacific life. i'm james brown with scores from around the nfl. today kansas city and denver remain undefeated with convincing victories over their n.f.c. east opponents. there's a three-way tie for the first in the a.f.c. north while pittsburgh drops to 0-4 for the first time since '68. the colts and titans both move to 3-1. the texans blew a 17-point lead. for more news and information, go to [ daughter ] my dad always talks about the deal he and mom made with me when i was ten. he said, "you get the grades to go to college -- and we'll help out with the school of your choice."
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>> o'donnell: bill o'reilly has reigned as the king of cable tv news for more than a decade. but it's his new role as the author of history books that has also made him a publishing powerhouse. his last two books-- "killing lincoln" and "killing kennedy"-- sold more than five million copies. and now, o'reilly is adding to his opus with a new book that's likely to be his most popular and divisive of all, called "killing jesus." although he's a devout catholic, he didn't write a religious book. he doesn't call jesus "the son of god" or "the messiah." o'reilly admits that some of his facts directly contradict the bible and he stands by them. and he also tells us his inspiration for "killing jesus" is nothing short of divine. >> bill o'reilly: all of the ideas come to me in the middle of the night. and one night, i just woke up and i went, "killing jesus."
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and i believe because i'm a catholic that comes from the holy spirit. my inspiration comes from that. and so i wrote "killing jesus" because i think i was directed to write that. >> o'donnell: you believe the holy spirit directed you to write "killing jesus"? >> o'reilly: yes, i believe that. >> o'donnell: and why would the holy spirit choose you? >> o'reilly: you're asking me to speculate about... about the deity. >> o'donnell: well, you are suggesting that you are the chosen one, bill. >> o'reilly: i'm not the chosen one. i'm just one of many who have been given gifts. i can write. i can bloviate on tv. so i'm trying to use the gifts in a positive way. and i believe that's all directed. and that's why i'm here on the planet. >> o'donnell: being chosen pays well-- more than $10 million for this book, almost unheard of in publishing. he shares it with his co-author, martin dugard. and o'reilly, who once taught high school history, hired dugard, a history writer, to do the research, which included a visit to the holy land to replicate jesus's return to
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jerusalem and his final walk. >> o'reilly: and i say "this is where we want to go. find me the greatest stuff you can find me. then he gives me the research in a narrative form, and then i take that. i start from scratch and i mold it in my way. are you with me? you see where that is... >> o'donnell: with o'reilly in new york and dugard in california, they work together on the books by computer and over the phone. hard to believe, but they wrote "killing jesus" in just eight months. >> o'reilly: the way we have it now is perfect! >> o'donnell: in the book you don't refer to jesus as the son of god. why? >> o'reilly: because it's not a religious book. there's no religion in the book, nothing. it's all about history. >> o'donnell: he trumpets his books as easy-to-read, fast- paced thrillers. >> o'reilly: i just want to write about important things in a very entertaining way. that's the formula. >> o'donnell: the title killing, using killing, a bit sensationalist? >> o'reilly: of course.
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of course it's sensationalist. that's who i am. i'm a sensationalist. i'm a big mouth. i get attention. in this world, you have to-- if you want a mass-market presentation, you have to get attention. >> o'donnell: what did you find that you think people will be surprised to learn about jesus? >> o'reilly: that he was a regular guy; very afraid. very afraid. >> o'donnell: what do you mean very afraid? >> o'reilly: scared to die. scared to be put on a cross. and that he got angry and that he was a little violent and that he was a man. >> o'donnell: explain how he was violent. >> o'reilly: well, when he went into the temple and overturned those moneychangers he was absolutely livid. he was personally insulted that the temple was being used as a place of commerce. and not only that, but they were stealing from the folks. >> o'donnell: he was upset with people of his own faith. >> o'reilly: absolutely. he was... he was upset that the jews were taxing, overtaxing, and extorting the folks. >> o'donnell: and that story is
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important to tell because it explains why so many people wanted him dead? >> o'reilly: that's the crux of the "killing jesus" theme, is that there was a reason he was executed. not that he was saying he was god. droves of people said they were god. but now when you interrupt a money flow, now you're into territory where they got to get rid of him. >> o'donnell: "killing jesus" examines the final days and final hours before jesus was crucified. o'reilly writes jesus was just 36 years old. you go in great detail to describe jesus' crucifixion in gory detail. >> o'reilly: uh-huh. >> o'donnell: why? >> o'reilly: it's important to you know understand the brutality of the day, and what they did to this guy who did absolutely nothing. and life was cheap. q>> o'donnell: according to o'reilly depictions like this are wrong-- that jesus was not nailed to the cross through his hands because his hands would not have held the weight of his body. so, jesus was really nailed
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through his wrists. and o'reilly says there was usually a seat on the cross, but soldiers took it off this time because they wanted jesus to die faster. >> o'reilly: they didn't want the folks seeing him on there. they thought there was gonna be big trouble if they saw him there. so they wanted to kill him and out of there. >> o'donnell: you include two quotes from jesus on the cross, but not the most famous one: "father forgive them for they know not what they do." why not? >> o'reilly: we don't put in things that we don't think happened. >> o'donnell: how do you know? >> o'reilly: because you couldn't say something like that, audibly that people would hear. he... you die on a cross from being suffocated, that your lungs can't take in any more air. you can hardly breathe. we believe jesus said that, but we don't believe he said it on the cross, because nobody could've heard it. >> o'donnell: but, bill, you know what people are gonna say. the bible says that jesus said on the cross, "father forgive them," but bill o'reilly says that's not true, so i should believe bill?
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>> o'reilly: well you believe what you want. if you want to take the bible literally, then that's your right to do that. >> o'donnell: but you use as your sources for this book the gospels of matthew, mark, luke and john. but you pick and choose. >> o'reilly: right, but that's not our only source. i mean, we use muslim sources, we use roman sources, we use jewish sources. >> o'donnell: so is this the gospel according to bill? >> o'reilly: this is best available evidence according to bill. we believe that the oral history in the bible is largely accurate but we're not taking it literally. >> o'donnell: what did you learn from writing this book? >> o'reilly: the most important thing that i learned was that jesus of nazareth was the most famous human being who ever lived on this planet. and he had no infrastructure. and it's never been done-ever been done. he had no government, he had no p.r. guy, he had no money, he had no structure-- he had nothing. yet he became the most famous human being ever. >> o'donnell: "killing jesus" and his other books are only
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part of the o'reilly empire, which includes his cable news show, a syndicated column and a live stage show-all at the same time. how do you do that? >> o'reilly: because i'm quick at what i do. i'm efficient. >> o'donnell: so efficient that, on his drive to work, he lays out that night's show for his producers. >> o'reilly: get a picture of the police chief, because i'm gonna hammer him. >> o'donnell: and dictates his script. >> o'reilly: the president's legacy is now on the line... the president's legacy, now on the line. i think i'm the only national anchorman that writes his own stuff, all. and i write the promos, too. >> o'donnell: leaving nothing to chance, he even dictates obvious lines he says every night. >> o'reilly: hi, i'm bill o'reilly. thanks for watching us tonight. hi, i'm bill o'reilly. thanks for watching us tonight. >> o'donnell: and how he's going to thank his guests. >> o'reilly: all right, megan, thank you. good luck with the program. good luck with the program. >> thank you. >> o'donnell: with the show and the books, o'reilly makes well over $20 million a year, so he could afford to tell us that
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money doesn't mean that much to him. >> o'reilly: i have never once in my life did any job for money. >> o'donnell: mike wallace didn't buy it when he interviewed you nine years ago, and you told him you weren't motivated by money. listen. >> wallace: you are addicted to the power. you are addicted to the money. you are addicted to the fact that by... "i am bill o'reilly and everybody knows it." >> o'reilly: you're crazy. i couldn't care less about bill o'reilly being known in iowa. doesn't matter to me. i don't throw my weight around. i'm not partying with puff daddy. i'm not cutting the line. i'm not driving a mercedes benz. >> o'donnell: but you did have a mercedes benz. >> o'reilly: no, i didn't. >> o'donnell: your wife had a mercedes benz. >> o'reilly: yeah, well that's her. that's not me. the point is what i told wallace is absolutely true.
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i'm not addicted to all of this stuff. >> o'donnell: o'reilly does give a lot of money to charity, including, he says, $1 million a year that he makes flogging factor products every night on his show. >> o'reilly: first, if you haven't already, you need to go to right now. right now. that's because our summer sale is just about over. >> o'donnell: you sell hats, you sell pens, you sell t-shirts... >> o'reilly: mugs. >> o'donnell: mugs. you sell doormats? >> o'reilly: we sell doormats. "the spin stops here." >> o'donnell: but in august, on the show, you ask people to buy your products referring to the upcoming gift season. >> o'reilly: uh-huh. >> o'donnell: in august? what season is that? >> o'reilly: that's the halloween, thanksgiving, christmas, hanukkah axis. >> o'donnell: he's had the number one cable news show for 13 years-- successful, he says, because he's a champion of the little guy, which he used to be. >> o'reilly: i am who i am, an irish catholic kid, working
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class from long island. and i made it big. how are you long island, long island, the home team? >> o'donnell: near where he grew up, we watched his stage show with comedian dennis miller. it was sold out, even though half the tickets cost $125 each. $125 for a ticket, that's pretty steep for a man of the people. >> o'reilly: it is steep. but there are less expensive tickets than that. >> o'donnell: you also have many people that pay $500 a piece, and for $500 they get a picture taken with you. would you pay $500 to get a picture taken with bill o'reilly? >> o'reilly: absolutely not. there's no way i would even pay $30 to get a picture taken with me. >> o'donnell: but o'reilly is so popular that his $500 pictures sold out. 200 people waited in line, some for more than an hour, even though o'reilly tried to keep the line moving. >> o'reilly: there you go. there you go.
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there you go. there you go. >> o'donnell: that night, we spoke to two of his classmates from grade school. they said you got into trouble almost every day. and then the teacher would force the class to write 100 times, "i will not do whatever (laugh) you had done that day." >> i will not talk back to sister. i will not talk in class. i will not throw things out the window. whatever he did. >> o'donnell: really? >> o'reilly: yeah. it was good handwriting training for the third grade urchins at st. brigid's. >> o'donnell: he said his classmates got an early taste of the tv inquisitor he'd eventually become. >> "starting in grade school, i disobey the rules, mock those in authority and brazenly challenge the accepted wisdom. my behavior back then was not much different from what it is today." >> o'reilly: and ain't america great? i was a little thug. and now i'm getting' paid millions of dollars for being a big thug. ( laughs ) >> o'donnell: but you have children. you don't want your children to act like thugs. >> o'reilly: sure, i do. i want them to challenge the conventional wisdom. i want them to debate. i want them to be honest people
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and i want them to develop a conscience and to speak out about what they feel is right and wrong. of course, i do. >> o'donnell: but you weren't challenging conventional wisdom as a kid... >> o'reilly: sure, i was. >> o'donnell: were just misbehaving. >> o'reilly: well, you can call it misbehaving. and i call it a lively quest for intelligent debate in the third grade with sister lurana. unfortunately, she rejected my request and categorized me as a miscreant. ( laughs ) >> o'donnell: what we noticed about this former miscreant is that he has a master plan for everything-- every line he writes, every word he speaks. and bill o'reilly, who told us at the beginning of this story that the holy spirit directed him to write this book, also told us he has already written his own epitaph. >> o'reilly: on my tombstone, holy root cemetery out there in long island: "he finally stopped talking."
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>> pelley: i'm scott pelley. we'll be back next week with another edition of "60 minutes," and i'll see you tomorrow on the "cbs evening news." captioning funded by cbs and ford
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. high noon and the tension is rising. this old western movie ranch the starting as the world.ace around today, these 11 new teams will get their chance to win $1 illion and "the amazing race." that's if the money isn't stolen first. teams are -- chester and ephraim. from nfl teammates houston, texas. >> chester and i both were