tv Amanpour Company PBS October 29, 2018 4:00pm-5:01pm PDT
hello, everyone and welcome to amanpour and company. here is what's coming up. my exclusive interview with tim cook, ceo of apple, the world's first trillion dollar company, in a candid and wide ranging conversation we talk about his surprising support of privacy laws around the world, the responsibility he feels as an openly gay leader, and the danger posed by what he calls the data industrial complex. also tonight a deep difficult into the devastating opioid crisis. our michelle martin talks to beth macy author of dope sick, dealers, doctors and the drug companies that addicted america.
uniworld is a proud sponsor of "amanpour & co." when bea tollman founded a collection of boutique hotels, she had bigger dreams, and those dreams were on the water -- a river, specifically -- multiple rivers that would one day be home to uniworld river cruises and their floating boutique hotels. today that dream sets sail in europe, asia, india, egypt, and more. bookings available through your travel agent. for more information, visit uniworld.com. >> additional support has been provided by rosalind p. walter, bernard and irene schwartz, sue and edgar wachenheim iii, the cheryl and philip milstein family, seton melvin, judy and josh westin and by contributions to pbs stakes from viewers like you. >> welcome to the program everyone i'm christiane amanpour pour in land li london. a titan of america's tech world
stands before a room full of european government regulators and calls for comprehensive privacy laws in the united states and around the world. why? apple ceo tick cook says that we have a crisis on our hands and if we don't rein in technology's dark side now, problems will soon be too big to fix. since the 2016 u.s. election we have been aware of the danger posed by the abuse of our private data. and cook also paints a dark portrait of society riffen under unbridle tech influence. this we can just before a spate of mail bombs unsettled america, tim cook delivered a landmark speech to the european parliament and asked what he calls a fundamental question, which is, what kind of a world do we want to live in? >> our own information from the everyday to the deeply personal is being weaponized against us with military efficiency.
taken to its extreme, this process creates an enduring digital profile and let's companies know you better than you may know yourself. >> apple's extraordinary size and global influence means that tim cook has the unique power to influence solutions, not just of privacy and surveillance challenges but also in the wider cultural recommend of gay rights, migrant rights, climate change, these were all on his radar as we sat down for an exclusive interview at where else but the apple store in brussels right after his speech. tim cook welcome to the program. >> thank you for having me. >> here we are at the apple store in brussels. and you have given a major speech on privacy. >> yes. >> this probably is the era where we are so concentrated on privacy, trust, surveillance, in brief what was your message to the audience today. >> my message is that we need to
deeply look inside ourselves and ask us what kind of world we want to live in. the fact is now you have more information on your devices than you do in your own home. ands in a major change over the last several years. and so we are trying to raise the level of awareness. and to ask countries all around the world to begin considering legislation over what companies can do and what they can't do. >> well, look that's interesting because it's an issue of great controversy especially in the united states, not so much in europe where they have a whole new data protection regulations. there is more regulation here presumably of all content and than in the united states. do you -- where do you see the parameters of regulation. >> yeah. >> you called for federal regulation, right? >> you know, usually i'm not a big pro regulation kind of person. i believe in the free market. but i think we have to admit
when a free market doesn't work and take an action. and in this case it's clear that the amount of things that can be collected about you without your knowledge maybe with your consent although it's a 70-page legal piece of paper, just is not reasonable. and these things can be used for such nefarious things. we have seen examples of this over the last several years. and we think it's time now to take this thing and put it under control, because if we don't the problem gets so large that it may be impossible to fix. >> well, you actually were quite blunt in your speech today just on this issue. you are talking about profiles, people's profiles. your profile is run through algorithms that can serve up increases i extreme content pounding harmless preferences in hardens conviction and then you say we shouldn't sugar coat the consequences this is surveillance. >> yes. >> that's a pretty -- that's
pretty controversial. >> well it's the truth. and i always get back to that. is what is the truth. and i do see it as a crisis. i see privacy as one of the top issues, the top few issues of this century. i mean it's to that level. and -- because of the number of nefarious things that can happen -- i advocate to put the user in control. completely in control of their data in a very transparent manner. and you know -- and there is more behind that than that. but that's the spirit of it. >> and you say -- >> your data is yours, not mine. >> and you say if we don't get a grip, you say the tech industry. >> yes. >> if the market doesn't get a grip either it gets out of control or others can impose regulations at some point. >> just to be clear, though -- sorry to interrupt. >> no. >> it's not saying this to the tech industry. this is broader than the tech industry. because many, many firms out
there are collecting data. and so -- there is a whole data industry called the data broker kind of industry, right, that their sole objective is to gather data on people. and so i'm -- i made a broad speech about a very key policy element that i think is critical to every country in the world. >> but they -- >> in our future as a society. >> i'm getting to that in a second yes. >> the obviously the content providers are under the microscope, facebook with the cambridge amountinga tens of millions of people of data shared and monetized without knowledge or permission. and so it's a big deal appear and i wonder how you think at least those plafrms those parts of the astro will take what you said. the other thing you said was very blunt. you talked about the fantastic opportunities provided by this technology but you said at the same time we see vividly painfully how technology can harm rather than help, platforms
and algorithms promising to improve lives can magnify our worst human tendency rogue actors even governments have taken advantage of user trust to deeper division incite violence and undermine our shared sense of what is true and false. this is a -- the opposite of a brave new world. this is really a dark. >> it's -- it's the realization that a lot of the things that have been created have some downside to them. and now they have -- as a part of the technology there is an amplification effect. i talked about gossip in the speech. you know, gossip has been -- has existed since man was created. but it's a little different if it's you and i gossiping versus if i can go on something and all of a sudden the world is in on this. and you have things like cyberbullying and a lot of other things that really affect deeply people. and so this is my concern. and i'm not speaking to one or two companies.
i'm speaking to all of us, the wrauder worldwide community, because it's not just one or two companies collecting data it's everyone. and we have to realize that that data is precious and should be treated as such and we have to ask ourselves, do we really feed all of this? >> i agree with you. >> yes. >> we ask that a lot, we the people implicated now and who are being invaded i think in many of these invasive practices. but i guess what i wanted to ask you is this. many of the companies who you might include in your speech, use content as their profitability. that is -- that is what it is. you click, you sell, you get money. that's what data is often used for. it's not the case really with apple. so perhaps you could stand up there and say that. and it wouldn't affect your bottom line as much as it might affect some of the others. is that a valid point? >> no- dsh it's a valid point
our business model is different, yes. but you have to -- in cause and effect is very important here. so why is it different? it's because we have elected -- our values tell us to go in a certain direction. and those values have always been -- this is not in the last year or so we have always been very deeply committed to people's privacy. we have always viewed it in the united states we viewed it as a fundamental civil liberty. these things are guaranteed to us because our forefathers had the vision to know how important this was. so that -- to us, it's a basic human right. >> you just decided not to share cell phone or otherwise disseminate data. >> that's right. we made that decision. it was against our values. and therefore that derives a different business model. now i'm not saying -- i want to be clear on this. i had no personal issue -- and
apple has no issue with digital advertise. digital advertising can be good. we may find something we want. that is good. it's the formation of a deep, detailed profile that knows more about you than you may know about yourself. because it has information about all of your browsing, perhaps all of your purchases, maybe some of your help information, maybe who your friends are, maybe their friends, maybe the messages that you have sent, maybe what you talked about. these things -- you think about all of this information that is out there. it's -- it is too much. this is too much. this should not exist. >> before i get into the trade and other issues particularly with china, particularly in the trump era with tariffs and all the rest. i want to ask you, you have also -- you say it's too much. but you have also said that you thought you were quite disciplined in your screen use
in your device usage. but then you have developed a new ach, screen time. >> screen time. this is very important. you know, for us we never wanted people to spend all their time on a device. we want people to live. and you don't really live if you are always in the digital world. i mean, i get more out of our dialogue here than i'll ever get out of reading something online. it's that human interface that i think is so valuable. and so we developed something called screen time because we knew that people were getting uptight about both themselves and maybe more importantly their kids and how much time they were spending. so now this started shipping in the fall and builds on the parental controls we had in for years. now you can actually monitor what your kids are doing. you can get a report every week. you can check it more often if you want, to see where they spend time, how much time they are spending, you can -- you can
control certain achs from them not having access to. they can -- you can give them a budget for how much time they can spend a day. if they hit that amount in order to spend more they have to come back to you and ask for permission. now, i think that -- that was job one to do -- focus on kids. but frankly what i learned -- and i think many of your viewers will learn too is that they spend too much time too. >> adults. >> adults. because as i looked at my information -- we tell you how many times you pick up your iphone every day. we tell you how many notifications you get. we tell you how much time you are spending on your phone. and for me the number of times i picked up my phone and the number of notifications i got were unacceptable. i mean, it just didn't make any sense at the end of the day when i backed up and said do i -- is this how i should be living my life. >> did you change your habits. >> i whacked it.
yes. and i hope everybody takes a hard look at their habits. and it's something -- there is something about having this moment of truth -- you can't kid yourself i'm only spending a few minutes a day because the facts are right there. it's paufl. >> so let's get to the trump era. >> yes. yes. >> there's been a lot of -- a lot of up heave aldisruption. a lot of business leaders have approved of his tax reforms like yourself. i believe you like the fact that the corporate tax and being able to bring money back to the continental united states. how have you the dealt with president trump and this administration to your advantage in for instance you were able to get him to exempt sort of tariffs on technology that apple uses like bluetooth when it comes to china and all the ref of it. >> well i do believe the corporate portion of the tax cut that came out in january is
great for the u.s. economy. because i think you are already seeing people invest more in the u.s. i think it is creating jobs. i think it does have a long tale to it. it's not a short kind of sugar high. i applaud them for doing that. and i think that people will see more and more returns from that. in terms of how do i deal with it? i believe in engagement. i believe in engagement. i believe engaging with everyone. whether i agree or disagree, i think you should engage even more when you don't. i think that's one of the issues with our society today is people tend to go in their silo and they only talk to people that agree with them. and i never see that. so i engage on everything. i engage because there is some -- there is some policy things being discussed that are incredibly important to apple, like daca is an example of this. and immigration more broadly.
i think, you know fundamentally and human rights issues. we talked about tax, environmental issues. this privacy regulation that i'm talking about, and so there are these enormously large important things. and i do feel both an obligation both personally as an american and as the head of apple to represent us in these policy discussions. what i don't do is i don't participate in politics. i disdain politics. and so i steer clear of that. what i focus on is the policy. and in terms of trade, to just add a little bit on this, is i think these -- you know, when i back up and look at this, the trade that's going on between two countries, particularly u.s. and china, you have two very large countries, very complex arrangement between the two. the agreement had not been touched in a long period of
time. it does need to be updated. there is no doubt about that. there are some big topics that need to be addressed. i am not a fan of tariffs because i did -- i don't see the issues as tariff related. and so this is an area of divergence in -- >> are you concerned because the president talks about another round of tariffs tariffs even higher than the previous ones? are you concerned that that -- maybe apple products and things you depend on might get caught up in the next round. >> i would encourage the administration not to do that. because i don't think it would be good for the united states. and i don't think it would be good for china either by the way. and i think the reality is as i see it, my experience says that in order for the world to do well the two largest economies have to do well. and that's the united states and china. and so i think there is this mutuality about the destination of the two countries.
and it's inescapable that's the case. and so what i am hoping for is more dialogue, significant dialogue, the issues being discussed and addressed and -- and moving forward. >> you -- you had mentioned i think something about in regard to this -- and president trump sort of tweeted back. you know build more plants here now. bring -- stop doing business with as much business with china and building so much there. and manufacturing so much there. bring it back to the united states. that was a little skewer. >> here is the -- here is what we do today. the iphone is really not made anywhere. it's made everywhere. that's the truth. it's developed in the united states. there is many components that come from the united states. like a lot of different silicon, the glass of the iphone comes from kentucky. the face id module is coming from texas. there is technology from france, and germany, and the uk.
and technology from korea, technology from china, and so we are using things from all the different countries. so everybody is gaining from iphones. and in particular it's been a job engine in mobile app development. and so if you look at the total number of jobs apple created in the u.s. it's 2 million. i mean this is huge. we are a job engine. and we have -- we have also created a lot in many other countries, including the european countries that are represented here today. and so i'm a believer in, you know, finding the best around the world and utilizing those skills and know-how and technology. because we make global products. >> you talk about a lot of the european countries based here and you talk about quality of life and economy and jobs not just the united states united states but globally as well. and tim burp and you creator of
worldwide webb is concerned about the growing technology that it's exacerbating. i want to ask you because you are ins brussels. you are one of the biggest taxpayers in the united states but the europeans want to you start paying taxes to ireland for instance where you brought a lot of people and business. both you and the irish government are challenging that. why? >> because the -- dsh the law in the past was very clear that that tax revenue which is on essentially the intellectual property that apple created in the united states -- that tax should be paid to the united states. that was the law. and is the law. and until that law changes i -- we will follow the law. now, i understand there is a lot of emotion around it. and a lot of points of have you that are valid points of view that perhaps the allocation should be different for multinational companies. and w embrace that
conversation, by the way. and are actively constructively participating in that. but i think it's important that companies today follow the law and pay taxes where it's due. and -- and also you know fundamentally participate in the discussions about how the tax system may change going forward. >> are you concerned given all the privacy issues and the security issues around your technology are you concerned about this rather controversial report that was in bloomberg that suggested based on a number of anonymous sources that the chinese military, a special unit of the chinese military had infiltrated little -- little chips into servers that were used among others by apple and amazon? is there any evidence to that? i know that you push back on that very strongly. >> yeah, i want to be unequivocal on this. that article -- the part about apple is 100% a lie.
it is completely inaccurate. there is no truth behind it. we never found a malicious chip in any server. we never reported something to the fbi like that. the fbi never contacted us about anything like that. and so i think that casts doubt on the broader story. but that's for somebody else to look at. amazon has also made comments as you can see. and my view is they need to retract that article. because this is not doing anybody any good to have fake information out there. it doesn't do them good doesn't do the cause any good. cybersecurity is an important topic, a really important topic and we should put all our energies into protecting you know the companies, the country, but not chasing a ghost. >> is it something that you were
ever concerned about? is it something that apple looked into or would continue to look into it. >> i sleep with an eye open. i sleep with an eye open. and so in that -- in that world in the cybersecurity world, you want to employ people there that are so skeptical of everything in life that they're always thinking -- because in this world you have to stay a step ahead of all of the hackers. hackers used to be the guy in the basement, you know, doing some stuff. now hackers are sophisticated enterprises. and so it's like running on the treadmill and you keep running or you fall off the back. and we need to keep running toward real topics, not fake ones. >> let's get to -- you mentioned daca. obviously one of the areas of disagreement you have with the trump administration and the president is on immigration. and last month we saw a quite alarming article or report about how the immigration crackdown is
harming high-tech community, high-tech jobs and even low-skilled jobs. people on both ends of the spectrum, employers cannot recruit enough people, workers to fill their jobs. how dire a situation is it? >> well i'm a deep believer in that -- the power of the united states -- one of the many great things about our country. but one of those is that we are accepting of people from everywhere. and they all come together and they have the opportunity to you know build a business or do whatever they want. and we give them the freedom to do that. and that's always been a power. and so i -- that's the world i would love to continue for the country. i think on daca i'm very emotional on this. we have 300 folks in apple here
on daca. and these guys are living one court order away from a problem. and i'm deeply worried about it. i continually push on this and talk about it. i believe based on my conversations that the vast majority of people in both parties want to address this. it hasn't been addressed yet. i'm optimistic that it will be. but i'm going to be pushing until it is done. you mentioned inequality earlier. i want to comment a bit on that. i am deeply worried about inequality as well. and i do believe globalization has created more inequality. and so i'm not one of these guys that say, i'm not involved in this i think it has created more. and i think it's up to us people -- us that have been bifurcated -- you and i benefitted from globalization in a big way. your whole show in a way would
not exist. >> so true of hundreds of millions of people have been lifted out of poverty by globalization. >> that's absolutely right. and i'm so happy to participate in that. but when you look in the mirror what i see back is that some people haven't. and it's not just that they haven't. it's that they've been hurt by it. and so i think it's incumbent on us to help address that issue. and to me that is about education. as i look at my own life in my own life i came from a very lower middle class family. and the way you moved through society is education. and you counted on having a great public school down the road with teachers that really cared deeply for you, with access to enough stuff that you could really learn and take the next move and the next move. and i deeply worry that we are
not providing that for lots of people today. and that should not be the case in a country as wealth as the united states. and many other countries around the world as well. >> to the specific issue that the administration tends to say, the more foreigners we have the less jobs americans have, the less good for americans, et cetera. but this is -- these reports seem to suggest that not being able to recruit workers is harming the gdp of this country, harming the economy of this country. >> what i think is that many people coming in that have immigrated in are creating jobs. because they have ideas to -- to create a new company. or they're entering a company like apple and participating on the next big thing. that creates more jobs. and so what i see is there is lots of people with significant skills coming into this country. that add to gdp. and so i think not only from a
humanity point of view which i feel deeply, but from a sheer business point of view, immigration is an add to gdp. yes it's very true that the border has to be controlled, right, and so i'm not at all saying come one come all. there has to be a control and a way of doing it. but the truth is the united states needs large immigration to continue to grow. i mean, people like me at some point are the baby boomers are retiring. and we need more people working. >> you talked just a moment ago about growing up and you describe it as lower middle class environment. you're gay and you came out very proudly. it's quite rare. it's quite brave for ceos especially in silicon valley doesn't happen that much. what do you make of -- do you believe the environment has become better, more tolerant for
gay people let's say just in your industry, and secondly what do you think of the current debate which the administration over how to redefine transgender? they are saying forget what we thought a year ago now we say only identified by the sexual organs with which you are born. >> yeah, the -- my strong view is everybody should be treated with dignity and respect. . that's the way i look at everyone regardless of their sexual orientation, regardless of religion, gender, ethnic history, regardless of their gender identity, anything, right. and so that's the way i look at things. i was public because i began to receive stories from kids who read something online that i was gay, and -- and they were going through being bullied, feeling like their family didn't love them, being push out of their
homes, very close to suicide, i mean just things that really just pulled my heart. and i started saying, you know, i am a private person. and so i kept me to -- to my small circle. and i started thinking, you know, that is a selfish thing to do at this point. i need to be bigger than that. i need to to do something for them. and show them that you can be gay and still go on and do some big jobs in life, that there is a path there. and so that is the reason i did it. i did not do it for other ceos to come out. it wasn't even in my mind. i was the first, which is is kind of shocking that i was the first. now. >> you're proud of it. >> i'm very proud of it. i'm very proud of it, yes, absolutely. to me it is god's greatest gift to me. but in doing so i learned what
it was like to be in a minority. and all minorities are not the same. everybody has their own experience. but the feeling of being in a minority gives you a level of empathy for other people who are not in the majority. and you begin to look at life a little differently. it also for me -- and this is very good for being the ceo of apple, because i take a fair amount of shots from different people along the way it's -- having thick skin which comes out of being gay as well, was actually pretty beneficial for this role. >> did you face the same kinds of bullying and -- and hardship that you describe seeing from other people. >> yes. >> when you were growing up. >> i was fortunate to be in a loving family. >> and they knew. >> and at different points in time. i wouldn't want to go into exactly when and that sort of thing. but -- and so i never had the
situation of kids that i now met and talked to personally that are being pushed out of their homes. i have never had that. and so personally i can't say i have an experience there. the bullying part of course. of course. this happens to almost 100% of people out there. and not just gay people. it's basically anyone in the minority in some way. >> anyone who a little different. >> yes and we have to get beyond this as a society. these are relevant differences in people that really don't matter. >> it is extraordinary to look in and see how huge a cultural debate the transgender issue it. just bathrooms. it's almost like it swayed the election. i am exaggerating but it's a huge, huge topic. i wonder whether that cause you by surprise or -- and what you make as i said of the potential for in administration to decide -- to declare and define
transgender as a sexual organ you were born with. >> it doesn't surprise me unfortunately because i grew up -- and i saw discrimination my whole life. right? i saw it with african-americans. and their fight for their rights. i have seen it with women in -- you know it was only 100 years ago women were given the right to vote. you think about and you go, what women weren't allowed to vote? who came up with that? and so i think each generation has a responsibility to -- to increase and expand the definition of human rights. and i feel that. and i think of the -- what immigrants, help religious minorities. because at the end of the day
the problem comes down to one thing, treating people with dignity and respect. i mean, at the days basic that is what it is. i look at that and go, oh, my god if in one day the -- somebody could declare everyone treat everybody else with dignity and respect, the world would be totally different. wouldn't it be great. >> you mentioned steve jobs inio are speech and he is a load star that will never end his legacy is over all over the place. i wonder what you think your legacy is even though you are not about to retire. but what would you say you have done that's regular legacy. >> the truth is that i don't think about that. that is the -- that is the honest to goodness truths. i think -- i think if you focus on that you begin to fixate internally and be focused on yourself. and i've just -- first of all
i'm not good at it. and i don't believe i should be doing that. i think i should be focusing on other people and so i don't really think about it. i just do stuff. >> you do stuff. >> and i hope that some of the stuff that i do winds up helping other people. and if i do that, and somebody says that my funeral he was a good man a good and decent man then i feel like that's a good life. >> you know his widow lawyer even powell job is addressing a key issue of our time which is the press and how to support the press she used a lot of her money to buy the atlantic to try to revive that. we see jeff bezos has done that with the "washington post". how do you assess that. >> i love lawyer even and i love steve. and i applaud all the work she does with emerson collective, which is sort of the -- her
organization. she is working on everything from climate change to education, focusing on the news as you just said, and so many other things that are immigration that were so important. to our times. and i -- i applaud her for doing that. >> i could send there, tim but i want to ask you one more question. >> yes. >> apple park. >> huge. >> huge wonderful new shiny glassy building. i have read it's been heavily integrated with designers at every level of -- of the operation there. in fact johnny identify the design ner chief gave an interview and described it. and he was asked whether this might be the precursor or the incubator for a future apple product, the autonomous driving system. what can you tell bus that. >> well, i can tell you that we love apple park. i moved in there in january and such high expectations for it but it's exceeded all of those. the thing i didn't appreciate
before i moved -- i knew it was going to be fantastic but i didn't know it was going to make the company seem smaller by when i you are all in one building you see so many more people during the course of the day. and all of a sudden you feel really small again. and i think there is a privilege in doing that. and. >> the autonomous driving solution. >> we are working on autonomy -- autonomous systems systems on the software side of it to be clear. because we think autonomy is a core technology. but it can be used in many different ways. people the automatically think about it in the car sense but the autonomy itself can be used in so many different ways. i wouldn't want to give ut the list. but it can be used in a lot of different ways. and it turns out that autonomy is the -- probably the mother of all machine learning projects. and so you also build a lot of skills in working on autonomy that can be used across the
company. >> tim conclude. thank you very much indeed. >> thank you for inviting me. >> and remember in the alienation that so many people feel technology has been the main disrupter, not immigration. and yet immigration is what's used when it comes to elections by many on the political spectrum. so as the clock ticks towards the u.s. mid-terms, we now turn from the dangerous of unregulated technology to the horrors of opioid addiction. 72,000 americans died from overdosing last year alone. it's a crisis strikes right at the american heartland. trump country. this week, the president signed a new legislation which aims to add more resources for those suffering from addiction. journalist beth macy is reported extensively on the epidemic her new book dope sick captured america in a state of emergency from users and dealers to grieving families and exhausted nurses. and she told our michelle martin
what drew her into this tangled web. >> beth macy welcome thank you for speaking with us. >> thanks for having me. >> i bet it's hard now since bject for so long but do you remember when you first heard the word oxycontin. >> i was a reporter in roanoke virginia and my colleagues were covering ruler western virginia where they were having a spate of overdosing, kids overdosing in the lie berry. coal miners overdosing, farmers losing farms. murders happening in communities that it never happened in the late 1990s that's how how long we need dealing with the crisis. people tend to only think it's since heroin picked up. but this goes back 22 years. >> how did you hear the word? did people come back to the oppressive and say beth it's the craziest thing you won't believe it. how did it become real. >> one of my colleagues lawrence
ham okay covered the criminal happening. and in localities in central appalachia where people never locked doors now broken into because people were stealing oxycontin. there was a grocery store manager got shot a as he was doing the night deposit so people could steal money to get their black market oxycontin. we had never seen that kind of crime on that scale in these rural communities. >> so how did you realize that was the story? because it's almost like it was hiding in plain stiegt. >> the terrible things were happening when did you realize that this was the threat that tied it together. >> not until i started working on the book in 2015 actually. i had written a three-party series on heroin landing in the upper middle class suburbs of hidden valley, aptly named outside my home roanoke,
virginia. even them then people didn't put the connection between the overdriebs of opioids in the mid-to late nights with the fact that when the pills were hard to get people were still having to go to heroin now and later to fentanyl bus urs haboob oh on the the morphine molecule whether heroin or oxycontin you have to keep having it to not feel dope six which is the withdrawal. >> what is dope sick. >> it's what users call the feeling of withdrawal. sweating, diarrhea, cramps, vomiting, nausea, restless leg. they say it's the worst flu times 100. as somebody he recalls in the book says at the end of the journey you are not did it all start.
>> well, three out of four people start with prescribed opioids whether prescribed to them some kids experimenting will start out stealing left overpain killers from parents. grandparents medicine cabinet. >> just for the fun of it, the thrill. >> when we grew up it was maybe alcohol, maybe marijuana, but now kids are doing you know pills at parties and if you look at the data the number of prescribed diverted pills is just off the hooks. two thirds of college seniors have been offered adhd skmgs. >> the thing about your work is you don't point the finger at any one cause. or any one thing but you definitely point the finger or lay a lot of responsibility on aggressive marketing tactics of pharmaceutical companies and one in particular purdue farmdsle which was owned by three
brothers, the famously private family. what exactly did they do to lay the groundwork for the crisis? >> when oxycontin came out in 1996, the fda allowed them to make this nebraska ulysses squishy claim because it had this brand-new 12 hour time release mechanism supposed to allow it to bleed out over 12 hours it was less likely to be abused or to set people up for addiction. and if you go to the communities where it tended to be prescribed a lot in central appalachia. maine, it was clear that users quickly figured out an end run around the time release mechanism. put the pill in their moegt let the time release coden melt off and wash it on the sleeves and so they would go around with like orange from the 40 millgram. green from the 80 millgram. stains on their shirts and get
the full effect of pill and that set up the addiction. they didn't know until 2000 to be abused but it took me about a half hour to who saw people walking around almost immediately with the orange and green stains on shirts. >> people tried to sound the alarm. people tried to call the company and say, hey, this is actually more dangerous than you are saying. >> right. a doctor who practices in a sliding scale clinic in central appalachia was one of the first to call on the phone saying i know you say it isn't addictive but we have high schoolers oding kids i immunized as babies farmers losing everything to this drug. it is addictive. and he wrote them a letter in 2001 saying my fear is the
distressed communities that are now seeing crime like they have never seen before overdose deaths like we have never seen before, are the sentinel areas like san francisco and new york were in the early days of hiv. >> why were the areas you write about, central appalachia, why were they so vulnerable would be the word. >> the perfect storm. the coal mines were shutting down process. the factory textile mills and furniture factories were going to china or mexico. so people had this, you know, this the desperate need to pay bills. and so when oxycontin came out people figured they could sell them on the barak market and make thousands of dollars they could buy them a dollar or two and make a lot of money but the other thing happening was the the vital sign movement the hospitals were judged how they troeted a person's pain. you have seen the smiley face charts when you 50 somebody at
the hospital there was a movement being much much it fueled by lobbying and pharma dollars to say we have been undertreating pain. >> but then when people tried to sound the alarm what happened? >> sometimes the company would send people to make sort of peace offerings, grants were. art manzee and they turned down to $100 grant that purdue wanted to do to the community because they thought it was accepting blood money as they called it. a lot of teenagers were yoerdsing and oxycontin as it became none the parents called themselves relatives against purdue pharma they started feeding information to the nascent federal investigation out in the virginia. in 2007 the company had you know pled guilty to criminal misbranding and the three top executives pled guilty to a misdemeanor version of that
charge. but nobody went to jail. >> the numbers are just so staggering that you know it's hard to kind of wrap your head around them. i mean drug overdoses now surpassed heart disease as the number one killer of americans under the age of 50. 72,000 americans overdosed last year alone. and this after some of the interventions that you spoke about, this after the drug company was taken to court multiple times. most people assume that the purpose of the government is to keep people safe, to keep citizens safe. what was the government's role in this. >> what the government did was basically nothing. it it seemed to look the other which. if you go back to political campaign, lobbying from pharmaceutical companies they spent 8 times what the gun lobby spent on political campaigns and lobbying between 06 and 2015 almost a billion dollars.
and that's what we need to to be looking at. the people in congress are allegedly grilling the opioid makers and distributors. but you look up some of them are taking money from the opioid makers and distributors. and i don't know if you sue saw the reporting out of charleston many west virginia with you but he found a tiny town with 400 some people that a pharmaceutical distributor was sending 9 million pills. where is the oversight there. >> was there a point at which this could have been stopped. >> oh doctor van zee talked about that all the the time and and do the parents. if somebody went to jail, if they would have taken it off the market when van zee said look i have kids oding in the high school library. he wanted them to take it off the market, reformulate it to be abuse resistant like the makers of talwin had done years earlier and that worked. and they didn't do that.
>> there's one point at which they were meeting with parents meeting with represent he was of the pharmaceutical company. and one of the dads had a picture of his son and he said to one of the executives, par phrasing here aren't you enough of a patriot don't you care -- to care about this? aren't you 1/2 of a patriot to want to change something so that this doesn't keep happening? why wouldn't a company change it? >> well they were making a lot of money on that drug it made over $30 billion now. . the fortune five hundred list. it's all about the money. >> did you ever have a chance to talk to any of this the the principles i know arthur is deceased but did you have a chance to talk to the. >> i got ahold of howard ewe dell's son. mr. ewe dell. >> howard ewe dell being. >> the head legal counsel for purdue pharma. he appeared -- he took the 160
mri gram off the market he was behind that. he said he was trying to -- they cared about addiction and abuse. i wanted to see if there was any responsibility because even when any pled guilty to criminal misbranding, they never -- they figured out a way never to take responsibility, the throe executives. i asked his son did he think -- did he think about that? and there was -- it was a lot like the drug dealers. it was like there was no -- from what we did to the point where the needle hits the vein and people die. there was no -- there were too many connection that is people couldn't make in between. and they were, you know, they think they have created this wonderful drug and they say they are very concerned about addiction now. and you see the full-page ads in "the new york times" and "washington post". >> there are so many people you profile in the book.
and it's -- it's heart breakingly hard to keep track. i just want to ask you to tell me a couple of people's stories why don't you tell me the story of the lock et that you are wearing now. >> sure. sure this is a lock et given to me by a mother that i came close to. i followed her and her daughter's stories two and a half years. she has been a published poet at a young age studied french in college. and she was overprescribed two 30-day opioid pain killers for a simple case of bronchkite zblies bronchitis opioid for a bronchsitis with code doan and 30dies by the end she had been experimenting with drugs. and i watched her over the course of this two and a half years just try to access treatment. try to access rehab and this is somebody who is the daughter of a surgeon, a hospital nurse, people in the medical system and what i watched was this system
of medical abandonment i would call it. she would get -- she would get with a meditation assisted treatment that has the best efficacy for stachg over overdoses and relapse and then lose the medicaid because they lost custody of the child. would have a relapse and eventually they lives homeless on the streets, until she fell through the cracks and she was murdered last christmas eve after failing out of a rehab in las vegas as that was abstinence only. i saw that over and over herculean efforts made to send people to treatment but not necessarily the right treatment for them. >> there are half a million people who are dead who shouldn't be dead according to a study from 2015 and we are talking about since 199. half a million people who died because of drug overdoses or conditions related to them who
shouldn't be dead. >> we have lost 300,000 people in the last 15 years to drug overdose deaths and we will lose that many in the next five it's a curve going up with no sign of plateauing. >> is anything okay. >> well we are. >> is there anything -- >> yes yb, yes we are seeing slight decreases in overdose deaths in new england states that were early medicaid expansion states under the affordable care act. rhode island, vermont and massachusetts and what -- what they have in common is they made access to this medication assisted treatment available to people like tess living on the streets we have to just educate people about this. because in places where syringe exchanges are places where people can come in and for no money they can get access to treatment. and they can get access to hiv and hepatitis c testing and
treatment. and it's -- treatment works. it's not a cure all. sometimes it takes people four, five, six, seven eight times trying this drug p methadone where the other drug to get better and get their lives together. and then they can start seeing success. and but it's still only one in ten opioid people with opioid use disorder have access to this. >> 17 states haven't passed the medicaid expansion. >> beth macy thank you for talking with us. >> thank you michelle. >> in this program two important conversations about critical problems that can sometimes seem all but intractable. now tune in next week for my interview with two of the worltd's most influential comedians who also have an impact on the political and cultural space. they are dave chapel and john stewart and a rare trans-atlantic tour they teamed up to sat errize everything from comedy in the trump era to america's racial divide.
here a sneak peek of the conversation at london's world famous royal albert hall. >> you know, in terms of a resurgence of the country being divided along racial and class lines and gender lines and that you will, i feel that's always with us. it's just at times it's maybe bubbles up more explicitly. >> some of the things even when they say that russians ruin the election. russian making us racist? is that who is doing it i thought it was. i thought it was us. >> and you won't want to miss that conversation next week. but that's it for our program tonight. thanks for watching amanpour and company and pbs and join us again next time. # uniworld is a proud sponsor of "amanpour & co." when bea tollman founded a collection of boutique hotels,
she had bigger dreams, and those dreams were on the water -- a river, specifically -- multiple rivers that would one day be home to uniworld river cruises and their floating boutique hotels. today that dream sets sail in europe, asia, india, egypt, and more. bookings available through your travel agent. for more information, visit uniworld.com. >> additional support has been provided by rosalind p. walter, bernard and irene schwartz, sue and edgar wachenheim iii, the cheryl and philip milstein family. seton melvin jude judge and josh westin and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you.
♪ this is "nightly busineness report." with bill griffith and sue herera. >> selloff. a wild day ends with sharp declines as trade fears are rekindled and tech stocks tumble. big blues, big bet. ibm makes its largest acquisition ever, but will its purchase of red hat transform this american tech icon? no way out. why businesses caught in the trade war with china are out of luck when it comes to getting an exemption. those stories and much more tonight on "nightly business report" tonight, monday, october 29th. >> we bid you good evening, everybody. and welcome. wall street went through yet another head-spinning trading day to starthi