tv Firing Line With Margaret Hoover PBS May 1, 2020 11:30pm-12:00am PDT
as america's mayor he helped bring the country together. now he has plenty to sayth abou this week on "firing line." new york city mayor rudy giuliani on septemb 11th, 20 2001. >> we will get through it. >> his next bid. >> i need your support and i want your s iport and will fight for it. thank you very much. >> he is president trump's personal attorney now. >> the president has done a sue ber superb job. >> this is a new virus. >> reporter: and competing america. hat is best for >> the testing is not going to be a problem at all. >> testing has been a big prlem. >> what does mayor rudy giuliani say now? >> "firing line" with margare
hoover is made possible by the following. mayor rudy giulni, welcome ck to "firing line." want to acknowledge that we have met before. >> i moved to new york city to work for you when you were first contemplating a presidential bid in 2006. i later married your long time chief speech wrer. one undepable lasting legacy of your presidential ambition. >>hine of the betters i did. >> one of the lasting legacy of your presidential campaign is my marria and two chredren. >> t aren't too many others. there are 160,000 ces of covid
in new york city and four times as many people have died in new york city of covid-19 than in the terrorist attacks of 9/11. now, youow as much as anybody, about the spirit of new yorkers and i want to start by asking you -- how do you think to come this pandemic?l be able >> new york city will overcome it. but in aifferent way than september 11 because this is a different kind of attack. september 11 i had the benefit of, in four or five days, we could contain what it hob done to ground ze and then we could bring broadway back and bring basell back and bring back in school.k, put the kids responsibly, you can't do that no d and when y do it, you're so i think there's worry in y, people's mind, will we return to normal? i think we were able to
establish that thought in people's heads about september 11th, 10, 12, 15 days later. o i sor see this as the first would weeks of september 11, xep extended out until we get back to normal and it's doing a lot of damage to us. i'm not sure economic - we can count that. ilot of emotionally damag not sure we understand yet. >> for people maybe less aware of your role asayornd deal with crises. sothing i didn't know about y yo've become a bit of a photographer. as the city has been shut down, youbeen in a position to be photographing an empty city. let's look at this picture. it's a photo youook of fifthn avenuearch 21st. you wrote fifth avenue at 4:30 p.m. on saturday looks abandon
but my new yorkers are doing eir part to flatten the curve. god bless them >> i feel like i'm in a movie set and it feels surreal. i feel le i'm a movie where the world ended. there were a few survivors left city trying to find them.d the i've even had kind of a dream like that. this.not fathothe city like it's much more difficult for me than thought it would be. >> when you first c to office in 1994, you confronted a publi health crisis in the form of an emerging number oflo tubers cases that were rising because people who had been given prescriptions were not completing the course of th medication and they were returning home not staying on the medication and you were seeing outbreaks of tuberculosis around the city. do you see similarities how you
started to think about tuberculosis and stemming the w outbreakh the covid-19 outbreak? >> that convinced me that, number one, government did have a role that could be. usef i'm generally, you know, a conservative and my view is let medicine handle it. but medicine can't organiz a city. only the city canrganize the city. and, number two, it said to me that peopleill listen ifheou approach reasonably. >> one of the issues you deal with as a mayorom whent to public health you have to make decisions that prioritize what the immigration federal policy is. for example if undocumented immigrants are tood afr to avail themselves of the city's public hospitals or frankly public safety, they won't use the public hospitals. >> you signed an executive order that would protect unauthorized immigrants in new york city and re is what you said about it. take alook. >> it basically says if they
seek to use cit services that are critical to their health and health and safetyther their people, then their names will not be -- immigration a naturalization service. >> in light of covid-19, doesn't what you said in the 1990s still remain relevant? >> sure. the logic r the reality of it, to let illegal immigrants alone to ignore them or round themp u in the contact this terribly rd to contagious disease is running around will make the situation worse for them but it could make it worse for you. i never consider a sanctuary city. if you were a criminal i'd turn you over to the immigration service but out of the gdness of your heart, somebody just got knifed and they are illegal, you
won't say go die on the street corner. i mean, what kind of a country are we if we do that? >> so let me ask you then. president treep, just this said he would tie covid funding for states to sanctuary city policy. [ inaudible ] in terms of public health if you're a mayo is that -- is that helpful? does that make it less -- more difficul for immigrants to report -- to turn -- >> as often is the case, you ow, the devil's in the details. i think both sides argue an extremist. then you look at -- >> tie covid funding to sanctuary city policy? >> no. or you should tie it to ay sanctuary c policy that is a sensible sanctuary city policy. remember, if you treat them inhumanely it will have repercussions in their behavior and it will hurt you. >> the american people as they relatehe to president or to politics have certain core in.ngs that they are interesd >> this isn't the first time
that you have been on "firing line." you were als t on original incarnation of the program with william buckley jr. in 1999 when you were mayor. >> the american people, they are interested in the economy, they are interested in jobs. they become interested in foreign policy only when there is an overriding threat or overriding concern. there are threats but they are not seen as overriding threats. the whole issue of terrorism is not one that engages the american people. >> one of the things i find remarkable about that clip is that the vi wo, that two years before 9/11. you actually raised the issue of terrorism as a threat. was terrorism, mr. mayor, something that was front of mind >> yes. >> even in -- >> it was for me but a special reason for that. remember when i ran, i ran in 1993 in the early19art of , january, there was an attack on the worltrade center by a specific group of islamic
extremist terrorists from a mosque in new jersey and their intent was to take down the entire world trade center. they didn't but they skillkille sufficient number of people and they had a history of killing people. >> during and after 9/11, you, the mayor of new york city, would sit at a table with governor pata o, the governo th state of new york three times a day, twice a day to cut through red tape to make decisions and to work together. what do it that way? every decision was a joint one. decision. when we made a mistake, we made it together. are not going to be pointing fingers at each other, so things got done very, very, very, very quickly. >> would that degree of coordination be useful now? >> it would be imperative for the city that is the epi center. remarkably the governor in cuomo has taken interesting jabs at each other which, as a new yorker, i can't imagine they would spend four weeking
about it and not do that a i see a good relationship. that is about as good as it gets.e the problem hs the mayor blasio is deficien giving nk de hope. >> let me ask you about messaging. you're remarkably candid with the public in the wake of 9/11. almost immediately. when you did your first press conferce, you were honest, open, empathetic. i want to play you a clip from the very first press conference. >> do you know nheber of casualties at this particular ti, sir? >> i really don't think we want to speculate aboutthat. the number of casualties will be more than any of us can bear ultimately. >> were there ever times where you tried to hold back the truth fromhe public during a crisis so as to prevent unnecessar fear? >> sure. absolutely. >> or unfounded hope? >> yes. both. >> what would youay is the key to a successful and effective
crisis communications as a leader? >> truthfulness and. discreti it's a balance of being truthful but, at the same time, tiderstanding that you have to have disc. >> do you have any advice for president trump as he is briefing thery cou on the covid pandemic right now? >> wel i think -- i think he should -- hshould deal kind of should make it clear that the real answers are atathe and local level. because the answer in new york is going to be very different than the answer in texas. he should talk abo the needs that have been brought to him, when he can supply them, how he is going to supply them. i think the fact that he is shortening them now is -- [ inaudible ] because we just have toecognize the reality and i'm saying this now just as ssfact, not as a political
complaint, the poesn't like him. and they are not going to give him, if he says something, that they are going with the one that makes him look foolish as opsed to giving him abreak. >> one of the things covered last week is that president trump, in the most generous portrayals of wt happened, when he -- the most generous portrayals saying that president trump mud about the possibility of injecting disinfectant as a w of curing or treating covid. just in drawing o your own experience as a clear confident transparent communicator to your constituency, is it using when you muse or you process outloud new information? or is it better, as you said, to ho some things back? >> probably a balance. you can't -- you can't -- at
times -- at times, you have to go beyond in order to move public thinking. but you got to examine that very while before you do it.to wait a and i think you couldave interpreted that. that could have been interpreted differently as he was musing. it wasn't serious. it was either sarcastic or persony a thought from a who is not a scientist. he wasn't telling people to do. th he is saying this is a possibility of something that could be done. he always -- >> outloud? >> he always makes it clear it should be done by doctors. having said that, this was probably something that should have been given -- should have gop tough a moot court, which i think of as a lawyer. >> you're saying hehouldn'ting doing his musings outloud? his musings have to be filtered?
>> sometimes he shouldn't. w th probably not. >> you said the importance is telling the truth and you say many people don't trust he is telling the truth. as heis telling the tru knows it. maybe what he should do is withhold it a certain points. like, for example, let's go to the hydroxy in >> hydroxychloroquine. >> i know a lot about it and t peopnk i do because it's like a conspiracy between the president and me.h we bound out about it differently. in fact, i was amazed that he ut knew ait. in the effort to try to give people hope, he said there are these there are these medicines that can be used. he said talk to your doctor. a lot of people are ver appreciative of that. >> the food and drug gave guidelines that his week hydroxychloroquineushould not be except for in a hospital setting because of this fear of
heart rhythm problems. now, i think that -- i've seen you promote hydroxy clhloroquint and al president promote it. to have a theory that wouldelp the american people would also be helpfulo president trump. but the flip side is the study show that there is a danger to using it, it cou so be detrimental. >> please don't think tha theg food and dministration isn't a somewhat politicized orgaltzation. i dith them over west nile virus, them and the cdc,nd they both told me ten days there was no west nile virus. like they areem regular human beings, not like they are gods. i have a study here from turkey that says that by giving hydroxychloroquine to the very people they are saying shouldn't get , to the people that are not in the hospital, they
reduced the number of deaths. >> do you think the fda is not reviewin se studies that you're reviewing? >> i think the fda has a bias because t president revealed it. i think they want him to pay a price for it. >> wait. do you think the fda has a bias against the presidt? >> this isn't the first time the fda has been political, margaret. the fda and these things get political. >> all right. so we should trust -- the audience -- i think what you're saying the audience should doubt the fda -- >> don't trust me. nd >> a the institutions -- >> i'm not telling you to trust me. i'm not telling you torust the president. trust your doctor.he s going to be better than the fda. >> if you were president of the united states i think you would rile on yr hhs,dc and your fda. i know you're looking at other i think if you wresident you would be behind the scene asking these same questions and now you're doing it publicly to question, but it goes this distrust in the institutions
which makes people even more confused and more scared. >> unfortunately, i do distrust the institions because i've seen them fail. and they are not gods. but they are part of the class of people thate think they smarter than everyone else. theyertainly think they are iarter than just mere doctors. and sometimeshink the mere doctors who are closer to the scene are smarter. >> so let's talk about governor cuomo has said by may 15th in a veryhad and methodical way, new york will begin to open up some of its businesses, some of the economy will begin to return. while new york is the hardest kit, a recent study by the investment b raymond james has found that only four states, kansas, montana, washington, and wyoming, meet all of the criteria from the whiteouse reopening guidelin.
>> right. >> while there are otherar snat already reopening, georgia, tennessee, south carolina that don't meet the federal guidelines toegin reopening, how seriously should states be taking the white house reopening guidelines? >> i think we should take the white house guidelines as exactly what they are -- guidelines. governors have their own discretion, right? so they can read them and apply them to their states. weave to assume thaty if t are not following them, they have got a reason for it. articulateshould what the reason is. from new york's point of view -- this doesn't really answer the question but it gives new york an advantage -- i think cuomo is right on what he did with may 15th. itives him time to watch that. >> right. >> i mean, he's going to have -- he is going to be in a much better position and he should te. new york suld ave been the first to open up. the worst hit shouldn't be the -- we should probably be near the last or at least in the
second half because hll get - agorgia took a risk. the president wanst georgia opening up, which is kind of remarkable, right, because he wants us to on u quickly. the president said he thinks they are doing it too fast let's see what happens in georgia. if that works, then i gue we have to say maybe we have to modify our opinion a bit. if texas s, we do. if things get bad there in a week or two, then the governor may have to push it but i hope that is the way we are approaching it. a few states, i can't tell you if it's the right or wrong thinm to do but f the point of view of an overall solution to it, it's probly a good idea that few states violated the for the other states, do we need them or don't we need them? let's hope it doesn't result in anything terrible. >> it brings the laboratories of democracy to a whole new level of meanin doesn't it? >> we can't not open at a point
there will be most risk of disease. that justst doesn't e in society. we live with the risk of disease probably worse risk every day. so we got to -- we got to open when there is no unreasonable >> you expressed a concern that some states'sar restriction too stringent. i want you to take a look at something you've said and explain it on th back end. >> we are at the point now where the cases are declinin it's all going the other direction, restrictions on.that doesn't ma. it's starting to sound like they want toarry these restrictions into october and november,ot just save lives, but for power and greed. >> you said that there a leaders who are not just -- doing it not just lives but for power and avgree td. e >> so absolutely right. >> why? >> for some of these lefties who want a government-controlled
state, this is nirvana and it's hard for them to give it up. they love it. de blasio has been trying to get people out of prison five years. he passed a bail laws that i ridiculous. now he can just let them out! >> do you really believe a pandemic that has killed thousands and thousands of ople i a nirvana for anyone? >> no, i didt mean they are glorying in the death of all people. >> is it their motives are power and greed or these are earnist fast attempts at trying to tide, tackle the pandemic? >> yes to both. lmthink the overwg mamting of people in this country, left, right, middle, want this thing cured for everybody. but there are people who take advantage of a crisis, a crisis usually means people are dying. take advantage of it! horrible! horrible! i don't do that! i never ranev -- i ran any of these emergencies and i ran a lot more an they did.
with the slightest political thought in my mind. i do you believe that the a way to balance individual liberties and privacy? >> yeah, the is. >> with plic health? >> it should be -- should preveal uss pr prevail unless a real emergency. we are almost out of a emergency. health care system is not overwhelme there are hospital beds in new york, the worst place. the rest of the country, the haelts health care system isn't overwhelmed. the punitive reason for this extreme civil liberties and a way we have never done it is now over. >> we talked about this earlier. you talked about how you thoughd new yorkersone a good job of voluntarily choosing to stay home. look. nobody locked people in their homes. people are allowed to go to the outside.stores and allowed to go
new yorkers have voluntarily flattened the curve and they are ing their civil liberties aren't gone. >> that was true at the elbeginning. >> but could this reoccur? 53 more people have died now in the united states than died in vietnaor this wasn'to reason. >> i didn't say it was for no wason. ther -- there were different reasons for different things. the premise for keeping people t so rest, as they are now, is that we are in this unbelievable emergency andt t emergency is that care system is overwhelmed. it isn't. >> or could be easily again. >> then we will do it again if have to. >> >> this is such a contagious disease, we could be in a far off -- look.tion if we ease we have to respsibly engage in a way that won't make it worse. it would be woe for broadway to reopen now,nd close again
in the fall. half of broadway would go abankrupt. >>ee with that but we should have a pla to reopen and then we should start small and if it works, theno g forward. we should have an aggressive plan to reopen. not all at once. but we shouldn't resist it.t >> i j- i want to read you a headline that sort of brings us back to where we started. covid-19 is our 9/11. who will be our [ inaudible ]? and the authoras som reflecttions on your time and leadership during 9/11 and the rudy giuliani that the public sees today. i'm sure'v youe heard it. people have known you a long time. they have wondered and said what s happened to rudy giuliani? has he changed in some way?le >> pe mostly, are angry at me because i represented trump. i repsented trump as a lawyer, as his defense lawyer to defend
him. with all othe talent and enthusiasm that i have and with all of the passion i have. i do that for every client of mine. that makes me a great lawyer. in the old days, it would have made me a hero. trp was a controversial cause and i was the one willing to take up the controversi h cause so h the right to counsel. so that's me. still me. it's just that people with political biases that they can't get beyond make me a bad guy for it. >> with that, mayor uliani, you have been very generous with your time. thank you t for returningo "firing line." >> i enjoyedmarget. as usual, you were terrific.
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