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tv   Charlie Rose  PBS  March 31, 2011 11:00pm-12:00am PDT

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>> welcome to our program. i am jon meacham figure in filling in for charlie rose on assignment in asia. >> the future of libya is still the balance. we talked to ibrahim dabbashi, libya's former u.n. deputy ambassador. >> if things go as the libyan people are wishing and if the opposition gets arms i think it is a matter of a few weeks. >> we change course and look at baseball's opening day with willy geist from msn b. c and kostya kennedy of sports illustrated tan great reggie jackson. >> you know, you are driving by your dad told you he was going to get you a new glove, and you -- and he didn't make the turn that you know where the sporting goods store is, he didn't go
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there because he was either sht of money or he didn't quite want to tell you and you found out when you got home. and you started crying before he -- because he didn't make the turn. i mean, that doesn't happen in football, tennis, golf. >> i love football and basketball and hockey and nascar, i love all of that, but baseball is just, it just seems to be so american family. >> we conclude with a look at the work of rembrandt at the frick collection here in new york. with colin bailey, associate director. >>he marketed an image of rembrandt as all sorts of persona, the artist was courtier, the artist is rebel, the artist is burger, the artist is tissian, we can see this in the present show he really did try on many different personalities, always looking intensely into that face. >> libya, baseball, and the art of rembrandt, when we continue. >> funding for charlie rose was
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provided by the following. >> every story needs a hero we can all root for. who beats the odds and comes out on top, but this isn't just a hollywood storyline, it is happening every day all across america. every time a storefront opens, or the midnight oil is burned. or when someone chase as dream, not just a dollar. they are small business owners, so if you want to root for a real hero, support small business. shop small. >> additional funding provided by these funders. >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. >> captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose.
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>> good evening, i am jon meacham filling in for charlie rose who is on assignment in asia. today is the first day that nato took sole command of operations over libya. tonight we will look at new defections and thetate of libyan opposition forces, the foreign minister who defected yesterday to great bring stain being questioned by british officials. today, there were reports of more defections, including a former foreign minister who is expected to be ambassador to the united nations. colonel qaddafi named a nick are n diplomato replace him, questions continue about the rebel forces and how help them, robert gates said there would be no u.s. troops on the ground as long as he is, quote, in this job. he also spoke about the state of the opposition forces. >> the opposition needs as much as anything right now is some training, some command and control, and some organization.
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it is a pretty -- it is pretty much a pickup ball became at this point. and ball game at this point. >> and as i got a question yesterday in one of the briefings, the truth is in terms of zero providing that training and providing assistance to them, frankly, there are many countries that can do that. that is not a unique capability for the united states, and as r as i am concern, somebody else should do that. >> joining me now is ibrahim dabbashi, he was libya's deputy u.n. ambassador and defected from the libyan government one month ago. today he says he represents the opposition. i am pleased to have him on this program. welcome, mr. ambassador. >> thank you. >> what do you make of today's news about the defection? >> well, this is a very important, very significant, because a defection of . kostya, it gives us a clear indication to other high
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officials that things are not going well, there are some things going on which is not in their favor and certainly everyone has, is witnessing during these last weeks the atrocities committed by the regime against the libyan people, so i think this is a good indication for the others to do the same, especially that everyone knows what kind of information mr. kostya has, because he has been the head of the intelligence service for about 16 years and now for two years he is the foreign minister. >> so if possible that his defection will bring more security intelligence about qaddafi on a day-to-day basis than we have had before? >> i think it will bring more defections on the civilians and military levels.
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>> but in terms of intelligence about how qaddafi is operating? >> i -- well, i think this is -- anyway, we have someone who is now heading the service, we know his views, there are many others also high officials we know their views, but anyway, in general, without defining anyone i can say we know a lot of high officials, many high officials are very close to colel qaddafi who are not happy with what is going on, and they are looking for a real chance to defect. but certainly, because of the tight security on them and on their families, they cannot get outside of the country, and i am sure that whenever they get the chance they will be outside of the country, and they will announce a defection. >> as you think about it, at what point will, could
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defections become a critical mass inside the country in turning on the regime at the highest levels, defections as powerful as they are symbolically are, in fact, defections? >> well, i think with the defection of mr. kosa, maybe the opposition forces also take over certain, in the near future, i think that will ignite more defections and very quick defections. >> you heard secretary gates today about arming the opposition. how critical are american or allied arms to the success of the opposition? >> well, it is very important. it is, i think, there is, between the opposition and the qaddafi forces, and i think we should -- we should have a broad
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interdiction of the security council resolutions, resolution. 1973, because it tells two. one is concerning the arms embargo, on libya. if youtake it one by one, that means the whole libya. the opposition and the regime. but, in fact, the spirit of the resolution is the arms embargo is against the regime. the point is there are, the resolution allows to take all of the measures to protect the civilians. the right interpretation is also to arm the oosition, to allo them to protect the civilians, because without the armed opposition, there is no force on the ground to protect the civilians. so it is very important to take
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the opposition on board the coalition and arm them, train them and they should be the men, they should be there to protect the civilians. >> an american political culture there is a certain drama to this, a certain familiar drama to it, in which no-fly zone, sometimes lead to arms which then sometimes lead to ground troops, or at least calls for that. do you foresee the -- a position where you might have to ask for allied ground troops to make the civil war successful? >> no. i don't think so. because it is clearly indicated in the resolution that no occupation forces should be in any part of libya. this is one. secondly, there is a consensus within the libyan people about no foreign should be on the
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libyan territory. but let me say in particular cases, if a demand is that a special force for a certain moment should be on the ground for let us say for a few hours, it might be allowed by the libyan provision and council and especially -- and also the military, the libyan military commanders. >> so you are not ruling out being open to allied ground troops being engaged in combat in the civil war? >> on the condition that it should be a specific mission for a few hours, no more than a few hours, it doesn't exceed a few hours. certainly no one can allow it for days or -- but if there is a necessity it could be, we don't rule it out. >> to what extent is qaddafi's personal survival critical? to
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the survival of the regime? >> well, i think it is a one-man show, the regime is qaddafi, in fact, when we speak, when we speak abou-- >> it has to be more than qaddafi or -- >> no, in fact, in fact, once qaddafi is, once he steps out, i think the regime will be immediately demounted. >> but with respect, sir, it is not a one-man regime. as the regime ruled by one man. >> yes. that's right. >> but clearly you have in libya enough people loyal to him out of whatever emotion, fear, affection, whatever it might be, to risk their lives for him. >> well, let me say that those are loyal to qaddafi, in fact, they are loyal to their own interests, because there are some people which we call the revolutionary committee members, they have been involved in committing crimes against the
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libyan people. they have been eliminating people outside of the country. they have been hanging people inside the country. they committed a lot of crimes and they know once qaddafi is gone, they will be also with him, if qaddafi will be hanged they will be hanged with him. so they are fighting for, in fact, for themselves, for their own survival. and it is not a large number, maybe around 100 persons. it is not a very large number. >> so a decapitation of qaddafi, you think they would fall in any event? >> i am sure of that. i am sure of that. >> and what comes after that? what is the day after? >> well the day after what is not well-known by the international community is how much the libyan people is well
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educated, how much the libyan people is well capable of managing his own country. i think as soon as qaddafi falls, we have this provisional council. i can't say now it is perfect, but certainly we have a very large number of highly professional techno democrats in all fields and as soon as the regime has fallen .. the government will be constituted and they will take over. >> when did the qaddafi we have seen in recent weeks and months become clear to you? >> you told cnn i think no one loves him at all. >> no one. >> and you talked about his erratic behavior we have all seen. ambassador rice referring him as delusional, perhaps.
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what is the -- your experience, when did this switch? >> now, well, i think he switched maybe a little bit. if i am talking generally, because the 1975, which was by one of his colleagues, i think he started attacking orally the army and -- but the most cruel act by him which i think changed the views of the whole libyan people about him is the hanging of many people in 1984, and it was in the month of ramadan, which is a holy month for the
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muslim people, and he is showing on tv every day, so it was really a very violent and cruel act. >> president obama said this week that history is not on qaddafi's side. but history can be short-term and history can take a long time to unfold. what do you think the time frame is? >>ell, the time frame depends certainly on two things. the first is how far the coalition, the international community would like to assist the opposition. and the second thing is how many important defections will be within the regime and somehow we
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can't say how long the regime can stand together without being dismantled. so if things go as the libyan people are wishing and the opposition gets arms and -- i think it is a matter of a few weeks. >> a few weeks? >> if assistance is not provided to the opposition, it may take longer, a bit longer but certainly it will not -- it will not take many months, because we know that the uprising will come also, the people will up rise again in the western part of the country as soon as the -- as soon as they feel the security is no longer tight, because now people cannot get to the streets because they know there are security people in front of
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their doors, but as soon as they feel that these forces have been withdrawn, they will go to the streets and certainly the uprising will make the fall of the regime very quickly. >> so the arms are critical. >> yes. >> and those arms, if they are not coming from the united states, where do you expect them to come from? >> well, they may come from perhaps, from italy, from egypt. i think there are ways to bring the arms from many countries, especially there are arms which are very critical, as the empty tank missiles, anti-tank missiles are very important, because now people are facing the tanks and guns. so they need something to tackle
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the heavy arms. >> one last question, sir. what should we be watching for as a sign of the true beginning of the end for qaddafi? is i it defections, defections and actions on the ground? >> yes. defections are important but i think if the opposition forces go westward and capture celt in the hand of the opposition, it is the start of the beginning, yes. >> anything else you want to say, sir? >> it is very important to have international community understand that some of our citizens are in a very critical situation, misrata, people are suffering. they need assistance in any way. it is a pure humanitarian situation.
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there is a turkish ship which is on the port of miss rata, it contains, it is a floating hospital, it has to be there in misrata as soon as possible. people there to get the humanitarian assistance, they need to get it very quickly otherwise we are losing every day tens of victims. >> let me ask you one more, i realize a term i have used too broadly. >> we have been talking very broadly about the opposition. is there a single opposition? what are the elements? > within that broad term? >> well, it is a single opposition. certainly, it is a provision, provisional council that is made mainly from civil techno crats, with representatives of the youth and
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representatives of the military. and there is a military council, but the military council is operating out of the auspices of the provisional nationwide council, they are not acting on their own. it is the provisional council which is acting provisional government, and in this council, most let me y, most of libya is represented. there are other members of the council who have not been announced because they are parts of libya that are still under the control of the regime, but certainly as soon as qaddafi is, as soon as he steps down, the provisional council will be constituted in a complete way and will represent the whole country. >> so you believe there is an infrastructure for a
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transitional government to some kind of democratic process? >> yes. but i am sure it is not perfect at the moment, but it will be perfect as soon as qaddafi steps down. we turn now to baseball, although you wouldn't know it from the weather it is opening day, 2011 major league baseball season. today makes many, including me begin to think about the nature of our national pastime. the late bar don renaissance scholar, president of yale and seventh commissioner of major league baseball saw the game at a metaphor for the pursuit of home, security and order, like the odyssey, it is an epic of rejoining and putting things aright. if baseball is a narrative he wrote, an epic of exile and return, a vast communal poem about separation, loss and the hope for reunion, if baseball is a romance epic, it is finally told by the audience. it is, he wrote, the romance epic of homecoming, america sings to itself, by the end of
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today six games will have been played, because charlie rose tapes in new york we note that the yankees won a six to three victory against the detroit tigers, and the world is right again. and because charlie rose loves politics, we moat/note that president obama did not throw a presidential pitch at the opening game for washington's home team, the nationals. joining me now is reggie jackson, the legendary yankee hitter and hall of famer, kostya kennedy senior editor of sports illustrated and author of the new book 56, joe dimaggio and the last magic number in sports. and willy geist of msn b. c, he is the host of way too early and cohost on morning joe, and a scholar of the game. i am pleased to have them all on this program. welcome. >> i didn't know we were talking about homer this evening. >> we are getting a little deep there. >> we are very deep here. >> only on charlie rose. >> homer works for me. >> it didn't indeed, 563 times? >> real close. right on the money.
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>> is that right? >> yes. >> you were at the game today, you were with the yankees and so tell us how you felt they looked. >> you always look good when you win. you always look good when you win. >> that is true. after the ball gauge, i talked to our pitching coach, larry rothschild who is new, and he made a comment to me he said you know, reggie, he said great ones, even when they don't have their best figure out a way to win and keep the team in a ball game, and so that was an expression of c.c. sabathia today that he is always going to give you an opportunity to win if you can get to the sixth inning now, and with our club, of course jabba when he is right, as good as anybody, and soriano comes over and you turn it over to i don't want to say god, but -- [ laughter ] >> you want to turn it over to mariano and it is time to get your hat and coat at the top of the ninth so you can beat the traffic. >> how did the game change from,
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say, opening day, 1977? >> arguably your greatest year? >> i think, you know, the game has changed all along in the last -- from i guess i can go back to jackie's days, you know, as the money grew, the game started to change, there was more concern for the welfare of players, whether it is travel, whether it is hotels we stay in, whether it is the equipment that we are using at the ballpark, the at that silt that we have at yankee stadium, at that silt that we have at yankee stadium it is beyond a spa and resort because of the protection of billion, 7, is what i thought the latest, you know, .. evaluation of the yankees was in protecting the assets that we do have guys with $100 million, $200 milli contracts, so that the game has changed because of the business of the aim, the
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reality of the game. you know, i guess wow could say the players have gotten spoiled because of the necessity to do your best to try to protect them, whether it is travel, hotels we stay at, the yankees are about as first class as you can possibly get. i think to the specialization in the game because of the contracts and trying to protect the player from being injured, et cetera. i don't think the play has gotten any better. i don't think the -- i guess the play maybe has gotten watered down a little bit because the amount of teams, but i will say that the great players of today, the jeters and the rodriguezs and teixeiras they all could have played in the e.r.a. i played and because the great ones will be great in any e.r.a. >> and it always, for all of that, comes down to a bat and a ball and a glove and a game of inches? >> it does. you know, i would say the yankees really kind of epitomize
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an organization, teamwork within the organization, and it really starts with ownership, and owner george steinbrenner because guy that believed in winning at any cost, and the dollars that he made on the field, you know, he, i am sure paid his hotel room and his travel, et cetera, but he was interested in putting the money back in the team, because he felt that new york and the franchise and the pans should deserve, you know, the absolute best, the boys are the same way, hall and hang, i think our, hank, i think our organization is run the same which with levine and cashman and lantrose that the concern is about the product on the field, trying to make sure that the franchise contends, and when you look at a ball club today, we faced an awfully good pitcher, another ace of any staff, in baseball,
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with john verlander on the mound today, so the tigers will contend, we beat a great club today, and we are a good team again, we will get to the dance when they are startin to narrow down who is going to come to graduation and get to the post season, i believe we will punch our ticket. >> kostya you have done a book on dimaggio in 1941. >> right. what drew you to that particular streak? >> well, it is a little bit i think the changes in the game, i felt that streak does harken back to a different e.r.a., it is a bat and a ball and a glove, but the game has changed. that was even before jackie robinson, so close to the league in that sense. but it was a time when baseball really, really mattered in this country. as it still does, but at that time, when dimaggio went on this hitting streak, in 1941, and it is a fragile time in the nation where out of the depression, we are out of the depression but we know we are going to be entering the war, and this streak really
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captivated people, it was front and center everywhere. this was the event, you know, difficult imagine crow was a baseball star, when this began, there were people, like willy in the backyard standing like joe dimaggio trying to hit with him but is the event that sort of turned him from being a baseball star to being an icon. you know, so your grandmother said hey did joe dimaggio get a hit today there is a stopping about him on the radio. so a very special baseball event, certainly but also very special time in this country, and the more you looked into it, the richer it became in many ways to the layers of the story and seeing a man of 26 years old having a transforming event. >> did it matter he was a new york yankee? >> i think certainly. i mean i think if -- i think they were -- when we are talking about times before joe came, the yankees had of course the great ruth and they won one world
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start winning world series, they missed in 1940, they were the premiere, premiere team. so there is no question that it was important in that way. i think that the -- i think who he was and that he captured people's imagination, it is hard to say what would have happened if he played somewhere else. he was also connected to san francisco, where he grew up, and there was no major league baseball there at that time, so it increased his span across the country in some ways. there were people, they didn't have computers to tune in to or even tv to watch, but they could get their evening newspaper and everything and follow this on the radio, the best they could. >> reggie, you started and mostly came to game in oakland, right? >> i don't know if i came to game out there, but i was a good player out there, i played on a great team. >> you got a good job out of it. >> so do you think -- what was
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your, what would your life have been like if you had not been in new york? what would your career have been like? >> i don't know, jon, in all honesty and i am sure willy is a big fan and, those who have studied the yankees, et cetera, being from new york, et cetera, new york is the state, it is the place, and my brand wouldn't be what it is if i wasn't -- hadn't been associated with the yankees. i mean certainly i have got an ego big enough to think i would have been, you know, just like hop along cassidy and roy rogers and, you know,. >> i certainly think you have to give credit to the legacy of the new york yankees helping anyone's image. i think derek jeter is who he is today and certainly a great, great player. but the yankees have certainly helped his brand. >> >> you can't fail to talk about billy martin and steinbrenner in
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this. [ laughter ] >> but that was -- there was the drama of the field in the late seventies and there was drama offer the field too, and i would imagine that the fact that this was unpolleding in new york with the tabloid press, and the kind of fans that are so obsessively interested, that that turned that drama into a bigger deal than it might have been someplace else? >> no doubt. i think the success of the yankees helped that. i think if you are on a losing ball club we would have been a discombobulated group that didn't know where th were going without direction, chickens with our heads cut off, et cetera. i can tell you at the time, jon, and i have to address my big time fan over there, kostya who has done so much research, but i this kel you that i really wasn't aware of it that much. it is too hard to do with these players, what these players do
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every day, the game is too hard. the ball moves golf ball speed for the untrained eye. the ball comes off the bat at 100, 100 some miles per hour, the pitches are thrown 90 plus, your average to below average with a 90 miles per hour fastball. and the ball is hit in the hole and hit over your head, et cetera, the speed of the game is so quick, and it is so hard to do what you need to do every day, to be competitive on that level with the people you are competing against, young, quick, fast, strong, et cetera, and so the hoopla, the newspapers, the quotes, what the response was going to be, i can tell you that certainly i was in the midst of it and i was dealing out of youth, immaturity, growth, and luckily i had strong parents and i had a good belief in good and christ, i had a gentleman from california that -- from arizona that called me all the time by the name of gary walker about
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god and quote passages, if i didn't know what they were, at least i had, you know, some one talking to me about what was important, but i can tell you that i wasn't playing the press, i was being honest in my responses, and my responses were honest. when i -- and i can tell you this, that in my young days and my 20s of training in arizona, i was extremely fortunate to have been friends with willie mays, billy williams, fergie jenkins and they constantly would tell me, reggie, be careful what you say, you are black, colored, you can't say this, you can't say that. don't they like women? don't be too contradictory. stay away from the training room. if you get hurt, you will lose your job. i meanhose things were always, at times were on my mind, at the same time, i felt if i spoke truth that i wouldn't have to worry about lying or i had to be understood or i had to
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be listened to, so the controversy that it became partly was because i desperately tried to be honest. and in today's world that doesn't work. >> but it is easier to tell the truth then you don't have to remember what you said. >> exactly. >> willy, what is your first baseball memory? >> boy, my first baseball memory might be, i was awfully crowning but probably the 81 series, i was a little too young to actually remember 77, but 81, unfortunately the yankees didn't come out on top that year, but that was -- we had just moved to the new york area, to wpix, you bet the good scooter on there, bill white, all of those guys were coming up. >> holy you. >> holy cow. >> the often when he would see a brain while announcing the gain, i have to roll up the windows on my car and would leave the broadcast booth and be gone. he would leave or take a bump shot of the traffic outside the stadium and see it is starting
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to pick up, scooter would get in the car in the eighth inning and go home. beat the traffic. >> my watch, it is time for me to go home, i have to go. and bill white, without -- you would never be able to say this nowadays he would say bill white, whitey, and whitey was, you know, bill white was a black guy, he would say whitey, you have to take over for me, i have to go home, i have to get across that bridge. and pretty soon it would be in the middle of an inning and three balls and two strikes from a guy and say i have to go. and of course bill would try to cover for scooter, i remember one more occasion they would take a shot of someone warming up in the bullpen and he would say looks like the yanks got a new pitcher in there, no, scooter, that's the bullpen. >> poor bill white. >> scooter would write ww sometimes in his score sheet, when he wasn't watching, to see what happened instead of a strikeout for a fly ball. >> but the yankees were so part of all of our lives as kids, that wpix had a theme song that they would play and when i was
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made to take piano lessons that was the only thing i asked the teacher to teach me how to play. we passed up the b. ach and beethoven and went radio right to the yankee theme song so i didn't have a chance, thanks to guys like reggie i was going to a yankee fan. it was a great series too in the 81 series, and again partly because of the tradition of payable with the yankees, dodgers, of course the dodgers are now in la but it was the first time that they met since the yogi berra e.r.a. yankees, very exciting times, and nettles and of course reggie's incredible performance in 77, so -- and an amazing e.r.a. and played into the baseball i think the game was handed down from generation to generation and these things matter, and it is a little more resonance than if you see diamondback yankees. the play is on the diamondbacks is just as good and great players, but there is a history that is really important to this
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game, and still is today, very much. >> now, will, you may disagree with the premise here, but there is something in my mind about baseball's enduring appear appeal that is not true of baseball or basketball. and i am not quite sure what it is. i think giamatti gets to it, think this there is something more elemental about it, it is a longer season, it mirrors life a bit more you can strike out one minute and hit a dinger the next. so that is my sense of why that is true, but do you agree? >> i think as costas said it is very generational, it is kind of cliche but it is the kind of thing you sit with your dad and your dad teaches you and the game is slower than football or basketball so there is so much nuance, so much to study, and the count, 1, 2, is he going to throw junk in the base, and is he going to try to steal, why is the outfield alliance like this.
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there is so much nuances what pitch dore you bring into the game. you can study every pitch of the game is full of possibility. there are 100 decisions that went into that one moment, so i think it is a more fun game to study, to study the history of, to study the stats of, fantasy baseball drives people nuts they want to get their hand on every statistic they can, so it is a fun game to follow. i think, is really the key to its longevity. >> if i can say one thing here, there is -- i hear so many people talk about my son's first home run, my son has a great arm, i think we all remember our first glove, you know, that we got, and your dad in the backyard, and you don't have your first touchdown that you scored, first helmet you wore, you know, your football cards, yoyou have your baseball cards d those stories, and your first glove, and hey, dad could we go by, you know, you are driving by your dad told you that he was
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going to get you a new glove, and you -- and he didn't make the turn. you know where the sporting goods store is, and he didn't go there because he was either short of money, and he didn't quite want to tell you and you found out when you got home or you started crying before he -- because he didn't make the turn. i mean, that doesn't happen in football, tennis, golf, i love football and basketball and hork, and nascar, i love all of that, but baseball is just, it just seems to be so american family. that that story, how many people, my first glove was a three finger hutchinson, hutch and i remember the sporting good store, in germantown avenue we went by it so many times and finally my dad stopped there and my first hutch was three bucks. and i was just the most excited kid in the world going home. i was pounding it and beating
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it, and talking to my dad about oil and all of the stuff that i had learned because i wanted to sound, you know,. >> put your phone number on it too. >> i always had my phone number on the glove. >> well, there is always the past and always tomorrow's game, let's get some predictions. who is going to win the two pennants and then can you make a world champion, we will close with the practitioner. willie, the yankees are 1 an 1 . >> i don't think they are going to go 162 and zero. i will start there. but my fares part of the season right now is the narrative that is built of the boston red sox as favorites. they are goliath this year, the new york daily news on the back page today had a picture of derek jeter that said the little team that could, the poor little yankees, trying to catch the big old red sox. so i am going to continue pushing that, put the pressure on the red sox and going to say red sox, and i like the phillies because of that pitching staff.
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>> yeah i am going to -- it is terrible to go -- because we are on a different show and have to go argue against each other but i think it does come down to pitching. the yankees have a great team and will certainly be a play-off team i think and be there, it is hard, i think the red sox pitching staff is not only good up front but it is deep, even even question mark, the guys they have in the back of the rotation, guys like lackey and beckett and even daisuke are good pitchers to be pitching in that area, and the same with the phillies, i think the pitching is too tough, although the yankees control their own destiny, if they just win from here on out, they are going to make it. [ laughter ] >> so -- >> and hold on to that one gauge lead. >> i tell you, that's it. >> national league, phillies. >> i think it will be the phillies and red sox. >> i certainly am going to pick the yankees, but i certainly am concerned about the red sox. i always think tampa bay fields
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a great ball club, they have lost some players and have extra ground to grind, we lost last year, we didn't get cliff lee, we have got something to prove, that is going to help us, and i know our front office is going to help get another player if we need it. i do like texas out in the west, they are pretty good. they are going to be a little bit better this year. i do think that the angels are going to be better in the national league the giants will always be around, because they have as good or better pitching than might be in baseball, they run four guys out there, five that keep you close the last six, seven, eight weeks of the season, their earned run average on the starting staff was under three. the dodgers if they pitch well i like madding's enthusiasm and in the east i certainly think the philadelphia phillies will probably win it, with, but atlanta is really good. >> i will mention the braves.
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>> they are the sleeper pick. >> and like kostya says, they are 1 and 0. >> and you never know. and you never know which is why it is so great. >> yes. >> willy geist, kostya kennedy and reggie jackson. >> the new exiks at the frick collection in new york presents rembrandt and his school through the eyes of two renowned collectors henry clay frick the industrialist and frederick lukt the dump art historian, rembrandt and his school, master works from the frick and lugt collections will be on view at the frick through may 15th. joining me now is colin bailey, he is the frick's associate director and peter j sharp, chief curator, i am pleased to have him at charlie's table. >> thank you, glad to be here. >> welcome. let's start with your ultimate benefactor, henry clay frick. why was frick as intrigued and interested with rembrandt as he
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was? >> you could say in a way that when frick bought his first rembrandt at age 50 it launched him into an entirely new zone as a collector of old masters, until then he had been buying many of his pittsburgh contemporaries modern art, sal moon art, barber, but the opportunity to own a rembrandt gave him an ambition and led him to be the greatest old master collector of the golden age, and first rembrandt he fought was one of six that he would own, it wasn't a rembrandt in the end but he thought it was, everyone else thought it was and it really gave him that feeling that he could own great art. >> how did he get to that first acquisition? >> he made a lot of money. >> that helps. >> he made a lot of money through the coca-cola industry in pittsburgh, was a really devoted and passionate industrialist, he began to collect art in his 40s as
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business became less important to him after a big breakup with carnegie, and he moved to new york and that also set him on a road that i think would not have happened had he stayed this pittsburgh. >> let's look at the five paintings of -- have you, have you walk us through them. >> nicholas ruts, 1961. >> the earliest picture in this show, very beautifully painted on a mahogany panel, you can almost see every brush work, i is ptrait of merchant, he is a fur merchant, surprise, surprise, he is wearing a fur coat and hat and he was not a particularly successful merchant. he declared bankruptcy a few years after this picture was made in 1631 but to look at the picture, you would be very comforted you think knowing this was your fur trader because he seems respectable, serious and dignified. >> the polish writer, 1655. >> polish writer is one of the most enigmatic pictures in rembrandt's canon, this was a picture th was discoredn
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1899 for an exhibition in amsterdam, it came from a distant castle in poland, krakow, outside of krakow, only one of two equestrian pictures in rembrandt's. >> this young man seems to derive comfort from him, but look hard and you will see he is a man-of-war. he is carrying all sorts of weaponry, two swords, a war hammer, a quiver of arrows and that horse going through an unwelcoming terrain is going at some speed, he is sort of a christian knight in polish dress, we don't know what the subject of this picture is. >> an interesting image, the christian soldier given rembrandt's protestant ethic. >> and given the very clear costuming that we can identify as being polish, being the clothing of an infantryman, of a cavalryman who is a mercenary but when we look at this picture
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and countless generations have, we derive some sense of comfort from that face. and that is very important. >> his favorite topic, self-portrait, 1658. >> and this if i may say is the revelation of our show, because for this exhibition, we had the picture cleaned at the metropolitan museum and our conservator removed nine layers of discolored varnish, we are seeing this picture for the first time in a way, and it is absolutely spectacular, it is 52, he is bankrupt, he has had a rough time. he shows himself as the prince of painters, and old line at bay, old lion at bay, tentative but ready to pounce and you know you tell me he is wearing a costume that is an old costume, he is dressing up as a historical figure, but those eyes, he is aware that, i believe he is a aware that life has not been so easy recently. >> and to see this picture now is really something else.
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>> and to go back to your point his eyes are ready to pounce, he is ready to come back? >> absolutely. and you just -- he may have been down as it were, i don't want to be too broad but he may have been down be look at the dress. ok at the pose. he is on a throne and he still has plenty of energy. it is a marvelous picture. >> he understood the self dramatizing effect of tragedy one supposes. he is a contemporary of ha hamlt in some ways. >> that's right. portrait of a young artist. 1650, to 60. >> this is the first picture that henry clay acquired in 1899 and very quickly fell out of the rembrandt canon. it is now for many years bee thought to be an artistrom the 16 fifties who had worked perhaps with rembrandt, we don't know who this is. who it is by. who the sitter is. it is an artist showing himself thinking about his art. but more than that, we still do
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not know. we have tried very hard to find out. >> old woman with a book, circa mid 1650s. >> this is the very last rembrandt mr. frick acquired in 1916 and paid a lot of money for it and he put it in his gallery which was the sang forum and, .. thleadin rembrandtpeciist said i wish you didn't buy this picture. i don't believe it is by recommend grant but a much lesser artist called carol van deplume, frick was rarely expressed himself with anger in writing but he did this time. we found those letters, and he said this is one of the best pictures, my public loves it, my friends love it, i think the experts are wrong. well the experts were not wrong. this is now a picture we are very clear is by a follower of rembrandt called carol van derplume so you see a rembrandt star ptures looks like and the history being one of mr. frick's beloved pictures, but in the end, scholarship is weighed
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against it. >> let's look at some drawings, interior with s usc a in bed,. >> this is the most beautiful drawing in the show. it is a miniature painting, it shows his wife in bed, in confinement about to give birth, perhaps having just given birth, she looks a little unwell. the woman with her is a maid, a nursemaid, looking after the child to come, the room is exactly as it was in rembrandt's very fancy house on to the middle of amsterdam and this drawing is almost a homage to his family life. it is exquisite, it is very rare, it was one of the best drawings that he acquired. >> where has it been? >> it has been, acquired it in 1919 and it has been in his collection and part of this group of 60 works that have come from paris to be seen at the frick. >> woman with a child frightened
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by a g. 1635 to 36. >> this is my favorite drawing in the show. it is tiny, it is this big. when you bet close you see so much. this little child, the dog is drawn to the child is more drawn to the dog, with the basket and the fruit and the vegness, the dog is wagging his tail and a friendly dog, the child is absolutely terrified, and the nursemaid or mother we are not sure are affectionately tolerant of both the dog and the child and she is comforting the little child to say continue don't worry, it is so muc th is caught ithis tiny sheet with pen drawing. i urge attorney get as close as they can, it is a marvelous drawing. wonderful. >> and another mother? >> the healing of the mother-in-law of saint peter, late si 1650s and this is the latest drawing in the show in rembrandt from the last decades, it shows, it is a very moving, it shows christ entering the house of his future apostles,
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seeing one of them, one of the mother-in-law is sick in bed on the ground in firm, christ beckons to her,ifts her up so we can feel the straining as he holds this weak woman all the weight in his hands, and she, amazed, a miracle of being cured gradually rises. it is done so simply with such emotion. >> what did you learn that surprised you the most in curating the show? >> well, for me, i had no real idea that rembrandt was such a profound observer of the human condition. this is said a lot. as we look more and more at the paintings by him of different types of people, particularly though at the self-portrait, the etchings and many of these sketches, the sketches that were never meant to be actually shown on a wall, they are for study or for his students, the sense of seeing life as it was led,
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remembering it, these drawings are not done in front of the motive, they are memories, the capturing of these temporary states and to be able to communicate those 300 years forward and still find it affecting or moving? that is truly astonishing. >> frick was acquiring in a great age of new wealth, great industrialists building a new economy, a new country in many ways. is there something about e.r.a.s of great prosper advertise in some sectors, in any event, that leads to .. the equivalent artistic outburst in any way? that is, are we in this gilded age where some people make extraordinary amounts of money, is there something going on now is there a rembrandt of some kind at work? >> i think what i might answer
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to that question with, if we compare the 2008, if we compared this period with frick's gilded age it seems to me that one difference is that we have witnessed a resurgence, we are witness ago resurgence of contemporary art, contemporary artists who could in a way command attention, exposure and prices, that were unheard of in any other period, when frick was alive, he could have bought many great living artists and paid a fine my portion of what he paid for his recommend grants and his van dikes, now that has changed. interesting. >> so it is a value in the moment? >> perhaps. and i mean, you know, frick and barns are contemporaries, barnes chose to buy the modern school artists that were living, frick chose to buy for the most part the old masters, he was inrested in whistler, renoir, but he didn't want to pay the same rises as he would bay for
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rembrandt or these others so he honed his eye and taste in that direction and a whole world as it were was left to others to buy. >> mr. bailey, thank you. >> thank you captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh
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