tv Democracy Now LINKTV September 17, 2013 3:00pm-4:01pm PDT
09/17/13 09/17/13 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] >> from pacifica, this is democracy now! the demographics unit, they would take ethnic officers out of the academy and drop them into ethnic neighborhoods where they were basically the eyes and ears of the nypd. they kind of go to the bookstores and the libraries and barsocoa bars --hookah and be the eyes and ears for the nypd and listen for suspicious
things. nypd's secret spying unit. today, pillow to prize-winning journalist matt apuzzo and adam goldman on how the new york police department, with help from the cia, spies on muslim neighborhoods across the city and northeast. the police targeted mosques, coffee shops, student groups and even a soccer league. first, they will talk about the mass shooting in washington. 50 years after the ku klux klan bombed the 16th street baptist church in birmingham, alabama, we will speak with sarah collins rudolph. she lost her eye in the blast that killed her sister addie mae collins and three other little girls. >> i remember when the bomb went off, i said, jesus because it scared me so bad and i hollered for my sister. as she didn't give me an answer. >> all of that and more coming up. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman.
13 people have died after former navy reservist opened fire at a naval base in washington, d.c. monday morning, killing 12 people and wounding several others before dying in a shootout with police. the gunman has been identified as aaron alexis a 34-year-old who had been arrested at least twice in the past for shooting related incidents, but who got security clearance to enter the washington navy yard and worked for military contractor. alexis was discharged from the neighbor reserve in 2011 following what officials termed a pattern of misbehavior. in 2010, he was arrested in fort worth, texas when his downstairs neighbor complained he had fired a bullet through his floor into her apartment. in 2004, he was arrested in seattle after firing his pistol into the tires of a car. at the time, alexis his father told police his son had participated in the 9/11 rescue effort and had anger issues
possibly tied to posttraumatic stress disorder. alexis told police 9/11 had disturbed him. alexis did technology-related work for a company called the experts, subcontractor to hewlett-packard. officials said he purchased at least one of the guns used in monday's rampage legally. he was found with three weapons. a shotgun, semi automatic historian an assault rifle. according to the associated press, alexis was being treated at the va for multiple disorders including hearing voices. eight victims of been identified publicly, all of them are believed to be civilians or contractors. according to mother jones, it is the fifth mass shooting in the united states since the massacre at sandy hook elementary school less than a year ago. president obama responded to the shooting on monday. >> we are confronting yet another mass shooting. today it happened on a military installation in our nation's capital.
it is a shooting that targeted our military and civilian personnel. these are men and women who are going to work, doing their job protecting all of us. >> the shooting comes just after a major report on gun ownership in the united states confirmed the link between homicide rates in the number of people who own guns. according to the study in the american journal of public health, for each one percent increase in gun ownership, the rate of people murdered by firearms increased by .9%. the researchers found "states with higher rates of gun ownership a disproportionately large numbers of deaths from ."rearm related homicides united nations inspectors that have found "clear and convincing evidence" that rockets loaded with the nerve agent sarin were deployed in three agents -- neighborhoods of the damascus suburb of ghouta in a chemical attack on august 21. the report cites medical and environmental evidence as well is more than 50 interviews with
survivors of health care workers. it concludes -- the report did not assign responsibility for the attack. the united states, britain, and france seized on the findings to bolster claims that only the regime of president bashar al- assad could have conducted the attack, while russia accused them of jumping to conclusions. the u n secretary-general spoke to reporters about the report. >> the findings are beyond doubt . this is a war crime and grave violation of the 1925 protocol and other rules of international law, customary international law. it is the most significant confirmed use of chemical weapons against civilians since saddam hussein used them in
1988, and the worst use of reference of mass destruction and the 21st century. >> the u n inspectors plan to return to syria to investigate other suspected chemical weapons attacks, including some which the assad regime perpetrated by rebels. turkey says it shot down a syrian military helicopter that straight about a mile into its airspace monday, marking an increase in tensions between the two countries. according to turkey, the helicopters crew failed to heed warnings to turn back. at least two people are dead and dozens injured after a powerful typhoon hit japan, imaging thousands of homes and prompting evacuation orders for hundreds of thousands of people. the typhoon complicated cleanup efforts at the embattled fukushima daiichi nuclear plant, where workers were forced to doubt more than 1100 tons of rainwater that had pooled around the storage tanks holding radioactive water. the plant operator said the waters radiation levels were considered safe. meanwhile, the death toll from
two storms that from mexico from opposite coasts has risen to at least 41 and did some of the worst flooding in decades. and the confirmed death toll from historic floods in colorado has risen to eight. scientists have long predicted an uptick in such extreme weather events as a result of human caused climate change. a new report meanwhile has found 50 of the world corporations produce 73% of greenhouse gas emissions that fuel global warming. according to the global 500 climate change report, walmart and exxonmobil are among the top 50 polluters whose emissions have risen about 1.7% since 2009. events are planned in new york city today to mark the two-year anniversary of occupy wall street. on september 17, 20 11,000 of people marched on the financial district, then formed in cam and his ducati park, launching a movement that shifted the conversation on economic inequality. and organize
reflected on the lasting impact of occupy wall street. >> i think it is exciting what we've seen in terms of occupy inside and outside the political spectrum. we talk a lot about the street protest and the police and those are important issues, but we also seen the effect of occupy as high as congress. senator elizabeth warren calls herself in many ways the inological mother of occupy the most important influential committee in the senate, the senate banking committee. you have mayors across the country who marched with occupy were standing up for underwater homeowners like in richmond, california. you have the foremost front runner for the mayor of new york city, bill de blasio, the only mayor who said he would not have shut down occupy. i think we're seeing a new kind of social movement today that is having an effect within the political system without necessarily entering into it i traditional means. >> occupy wall street organizer justin wedes.
it brought wha widespread attention between the income gap. revealedrs recently 95% of income gains since the recession ended have gone to the top 1%. on sunday, george stephanopoulos asked president obama about the gap. >> the gains to the top 1%. >> the folks in the middle and at the bottom haven't seen income growth or wage growth not just over the last three or four years, but over the last 15 years. >> house lawmakers are set to consider republican back bill that would cut food stamps by an estimated $4 billion annually and let states impose sweeping new requirements on employment for receipts of -- recipients of food aid. the bill would also allow states to report drug testing for food stamp recipients. the latest document leaks from
edward snowden show the national security agency is targeting international financial transactions involving customers of major credit card companies, including visa. according to the german magazine der spiegel, the nsa's financial records database housed 180 million records in 2011. ae records included data from brussels-based network used by thousands of banks to securely send information on transactions. one document shows the nsa's british counterpart, gchq, expressed concerns about the bulk collection of financial data, which is said contained "rich personal information," much of it "not about our targets." bill de blasio has cemented his degree the democratic primary to run for mayor of new york city after the second-place challenger bill thompson conceded the race and endorsed a monday. bill de blasio ran on a progressive platform to replace outgoing mayor muckle bloomberg, criticizing his support for the police tactic of stop and frisk
them down to take on growing inequality between the rich and poor. bill de blasio will face republican candidate joe lhota. those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with aaron maté. >> welcome to all our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. 13 people died when a former navy reservist opened fire on a naval base and washington, d.c. on monday, killing 12 people and wounding several others before dying in a shootout with police. the gunman had been identified as aaron alexis, 34-year-old who have been arrested at least twice in the past for shooting related incidents. he got security grants danger the washington navy yard. he was discharged from the navy reserve in 2011, following what officials termed a pattern of misbehavior. the associated press has just reported alexis was treated by the va for serious mental illness him including hearing voices. >> to talk more about the
shooting, we are owing by matt apuzzo and adam goldman, they cowrote the new book, "enemies within: inside the nypd's secret spying unit and bin laden's final plot against america." we will talk about the book in a moment. first, to the shooting. welcome. matt, what do you know the about the report you're putting out today? >> the ap moved a few minutes ago that said alexis had been treated relatively recently, in recent months, for a host of mental issues at the va, hearing voices was kind of the catchall. i think the question obviously is going to be, how far along was he in the treatment? what were they seen the medical record? pulledhat have clearances to get in the building? at this stage, i don't think we know the answers to those questions and i think that is
what investigators will be looking for. were their missed opportunities like we saw at virginia tech, where he should have been able to do the things to get a hold of the guns given his mental treatment? i don't know if that was the case here, but it is certainly something the federal government is looking at, city government is looking at, and reporters like us are looking at. >> is something both having a clearance and having the guns. >> right. our reporter -- the guns are not something that adam and i focused a ton on, but our reporter in washington has really been trying to these together how they got the guns. we know there was a shotgun he used, a handgun. unclear whether he got the handgun from a police officer or security guard on the scene. they are still trying to link up the assault rifle as to if that was his. is what the federal government is trying to piece together as are we. >> quite astounding, while being treated at the va for among
other things, hearing voices, that he had other incidents in the past and his father saying to authorities that he perhaps suffered from posttraumatic stress disorder from helping people at 9/11. he had done violence incidents he was arrested for. we're 24 hours into this investigation and we still haven't figured out -- the gun trace issue is always difficult. i think until we know how we got these guns and his clearances went, i just don't want to jump to conclusions about what should or shouldn't have happened. we are only 24 hours into it. mental illness, adam, and being able to have guns legally? >> that is a big issue in this country. we see people repeatedly with mental illness obtained firearms . newtown, virginia tech, and the horrific shooting in the suburb of denver.
>> of course we will continue to follow this issue. but now we're going to talk about an issue you have followed for years. thet is been 12 years since 9/11 attacks, but only now was a fuller picture emerging of what could be one of its most controversial legacies. in the aftermath of 9/11, the nypd established an intelligence operation that in some ways has been even more aggressive than the national security agency. at its core, spying operation targeting muslim americans, where they live, work, and pray. the demographics unit, as it was known until 2010, has a grilli infiltrated muslim student groups, since informants into mosques, eavesdropped on conversations and restaurants, barber shops, and gems, and built a vast database on information -- of information on muslim americans. the program was established with help from the cia, which is barred from spying on americans. it emerged the nypd has labeled at least 50
muslim organizations as terrorist groups. this has allowed them to carry out what are called terrorism enterprise investigations, sending undercover informants into mosques to spy on worshipers and make secret recordings. that news came just weeks after a group of muslim americans filed a federal lawsuit against the nypd's spy program, alleging what they call unconstitutional religious profiling and suspicionless surveillance. at a news conference, plaintiff asad dandia described his run-in with the man who turned out to be a police informant. >> in march 2012i was approached by a 19-year-old man who came to me telling me that he was looking for spirituality, looking to change his ways. he said he had a very dark past and wanted to be a better practicing muslim. i figured, what better way to have him perform its obligations than to join this organization? released a public statement saying he was an informant for the nypd. when i found out, i had a mixture of feelings. number one, i was terrified and afraid for my family, especially
my younger sister will stop i felt betrayed because someone i took in as a friend and brother was lying to me. the -- that, one of was asad dandia, one of the plaintiffs in the suit. while the spy program has been intrusive, it is also been ineffective. the nypd has admitted the demographics unit failed to yield a single terrorism investigation or even a single lead. in a deposition last tear, the commanding officer of the intelligence division, assistant nypd chief, said -- >> the nypd spy program was first exposed to fillets are prize-winning series by the associated press. to lead reporters on the story have just come out the new book that expands on the ground breaking reporting. the book is called, "enemies within: inside the nypd's secret spying unit and bin laden's final plot against america."
co-authors matt apuzzo and adam goldman join us here in new york. they sure the 2012 pulitzer prize for investigative reporting. we welcome you both to democracy now! layout this book for us. in a nutshell, how you got on the story, and what you found. >> our book really goes a lot deeper in a lot broader than we were able to do even in all of the many stories we wrote for the ap. what we really focused on was how in the aftermath of 9/11, how the nypd working hand-in- hand with the cia, built an intelligence apparatus that focuses on american citizens like no other police department in the country. and active-duty cia officer a retired cia officer built in apparatus by which it was sort of army informants out there and
we have these demographic officers who their job is just to hang out in neighborhoods and listen for what people are talking about. some of what we have seen in these files, we saw two men speaking at a café and they were talking about what they thought about the president's state of the union address, and here's what they thought. what a think about drones, foreign policy, what they think about american policies toward civil liberties, you know, tsa. are we to discriminatory against muslims? all the stuff ends up in police files and the justification is, we need to know what the sentiment of these communities are so we can look for hotspots. >> talk about how this plays out, adam. ray kelly working with david cohen from the cia. they set out to create basically a map of all new york's ethnic neighborhoods? >> that is with the demographics unit was doing.
they wanted to literally map the human terrain of the five boroughs of new york. they went beyond -- they went to new york and new jersey as well. ,hey had this year after 9/11 looking at queens and brooklyn and these other places where there were a lot of muslim americans and thought, we don't know much about these communities and they looked at people like one of the 9/11 hijackers. he had radicalized, grown more religious, and given off the signals in front of the community. they wanted to be in the communities of new york, so if there is anyone like him, -- anyone like that there would be radicalizing -- they could have listening posts. they would have eyes and ears in the community to pick up on that. >> one of the things you write about is how the undercover officers would go to the best arab food restaurants, not coming up with leads, but because the food was good and just "spy" there.
>> we found a lot that these plainclothes officers were gravitating toward the better restaurants. there is a bakery, the damascus bakery, that serves excellent pastries. there is a kebab house in flushing, queens, messieurs excellent kebab. what the commanding officer in charge of the demographics unit started to see, there are many reports being filed from similar locations. how do spend $40 at the pastry shop? eventually, he determined they were going there, following these reports, because the food is good. >> talk about the main players. talk about larry sanchez, david cohen who come from the cia and went to the nypd. board,kelly comes on police commissioner after 9/11, and says, look, we can't rely solely on the federal government. i think smartly said, we can't
do business as usual. we need to start developing our own intelligence and have a better sense of what is going on in the city. so the guy he hired to do that is a man named david cohen, who we profile the plea in the book. he made his career at the cia, rose to the level of the deputy director for operations, basically nation's top spy. he retired as the head of the clandestine service. he was basically recruited out of retirement to start what is basically a mini cia at the nypd. his first things, david cohen calls under the cia and says, i need an active-duty guy who can be my right-hand man. george tenet, the director of the cia, since larry sanchez to new york. ,arry is this very likable guy skydiver, scuba diver, a guy's guy. use active duty, so he is a blue cia badge.
he can start the early morning at the cia station in new york and go over to the nypd and he is directing domestic operations for nypd. he really was the architect of the demographics unit. this i, active-duty for the cia, of the intellectual father the demographics unit. >> we're going to take a break and come back to this discussion. we're speaking with the prize- winning reporters matt apuzzo and adam goldman, who have written, "enemies within: inside the nypd's secret spying unit and bin laden's final plot against america." we will be back with them in a moment. ♪ [music break]
>> this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with aaron maté. our guests are matt apuzzo and adam goldman, reporters for the associated press, co-authors of the brand-new book, "enemies within: inside the nypd's secret spying unit and bin laden's final plot against america." we're also joined by linda sarsour. city, here in new york leading arab-american activist yorkthe association of new and the advocacy and civic engagement court enter for the national network of error american communities. >> we were talking about larry sanchez. let's turn to a part of the 2007 hearing before the senate committee on homeland security that looked at the nypd's counterterrorism efforts. this is then senator joe lieberman questioning larry sanchez, the analyst to came to the nypd from the cia.
>> i'm paraphrasing, but i think you said the aim of this investigation and of the nypd was not just to prevent terrorist attacks, obviously, post-9/11 in new york city, but to try to prevent -- understand and then prevent the radicalization that leads to terrorist attacks. in the end of it, what are the steps that you come away with that you feel industry and usual area, unremarkable people, not on the screen of law enforcement to try toyou begin prevent the radicalization that leads to terrorism? >> let me try to answer this way. the key to it was, first, to understand it. whato start appreciating most people would say would be innocuous,, would be looking at behaviors that could
easily be argued in what is democracy, especially in the united states, to be detected -- protected by first and fourth the mimic rights, but not to look at them in a vacuum, but to look across to them as precursors to terrorism. new york city has created its own methods to be able to understand them better, to be able to identify and to be able to make judgment calls if these are things that we need to worry about. >> that is larry sanchez, testifying in 2007. matt apuzzo? >> adam and i have watched that clip and read the transcript dozens of times. thatf our great regrets is this happened in 2007 and nobody, including us, said, hey, that guy just got up and said
stuff that is protected by the first amendment shouldn't be viewed as such and should be viewed as potential rigors of the terrorism and the nypd has this unspecified method to decide how to ferret that out. i kind of watch that now -- i remember when that happened and i'm like, how the heck -- how to the reporter in me not say, geez, what are these methods? why the heck did it take four years? we look back and, they told us we were doing this, they laid it all out there. why weren't we as journalists, as the public, more skeptical and why were we willing to ask more questions? nypd were and the also competing with each other, so much so they were going to sue each other. can you explain what was happening? >> well, there's enormous friction between the fbi and the nypd, mainly the nypd intelligence division.
these two outfits would sometimes not work in harmony. mainly because david cohen thought the intelligence division and his detectives should go on their own. you did one of the part of what they called group think. they would say, we will investigate and if we find anything, we will bring it to you. the problem with that is, sometimes these investigations were in late stages in the fbi had concerns about how they had developed these cases. .t flared up in the newspaper in the end, the fbi felt like, look, you just can't go out and do your own thing. we're going to stop this. we have to work as a team and that is how you build stronger cases, cooperation. >> and the spying also extended beyond the muslim community. there are reports in your book about spying on left-wing activists, ethical protest? >> everybody remembers the
bombing of the time square recruiting station, the pipe bomb that did not injure anyone, but it was 3:00 in the morning and blew out a window. in the aftermath of that, the nypd for him and we've seen this in the files, the nypd did an investigation were they said, we have identified this log that posts links to protest, new , about and pictures confrontations, radical protest, anarchist protest, people throwing molotov cocktails. they said, that block had a link up to a fox news story about the time square bombing within three hours. and to the nypd, the three hour seemed awfully quick. they said, well, a move that suggests the guy who runs the blog new in advance. it turns out it one point years earlier, one of the guys who ran the blog, this guy named dennis burke, he had ties to critical
mass, the guys who ride the bikes, the protest group in new york city. >> and friends of brad will. >> and friends of brad will, the group that wants to get to the bottom of the death of american journalist to mexico. anthey actually opened investigation. it was based on those facts that they opened the investigation not only into dennis burke, it into his associates and these other groups. times upltrated the guys, the critical mass guys, friends of brad will and sent an undercover officer as part of the investigation out to the people's summit in new orleans, which is a group of sort of anti-globalization groups. the nypd was there. because of this investigation into the bombing, they put into the file, people who were organized -- labor organizing for nannies, talking about palestinian conflict with the israelis, people who are writing newsletters for left-wing
organizations. nobody believed there was any connection to the bombing, but it just shows you how this spirals away from the central focus. can you talkour, about, as your with the arab- american association of new york, how the investigations at the nypd was in that adam and matt are describing, how it affected you and your community? rocks they basically confirmed everything our community are ready was happening. 9/11, theafter terrorist enterprise investigations that you heard also included, i believe, my organization and what the nypd wanted to do to my organization, they clearly lay this out in a secret document. they wanted to recruit a confidential informant to sit on my board. not only were they creating listing events by going to our restaurants, acting as clients and our, they wanted to have someone who would be the
deciding figure on my board, access to information, financial information and i think we keep learning the program is just more outrageous. it creates site for logical warfare and our community. how myspace supposed to know if how am iwas -- supposed to know if the nypd was successful question mark second, how to even know the guy next door that was prying at the mosque or the guy at the restaurant that is trying to open a conversation with us about something that is happening with egypt, for example, and as people who know air, particularly, love to talk about politics. a lot of our families came to the united states so we could have a place to practice our religion freely, to have our own political views, and now that we know the nypd wants to hear what our sentiment is, people probably don't want to share the sentiment. the most disturbing is our muslim student association come a who are calling us to consult about how political should their events be. when i was in college, i want a mighty events to be as political
as possible. if they weren't, i wanted to figure out how to make them controversial. our students feel they can do their because -- can do that because they can be taken out of context and something can happen to them. i think it is a valid concern. i am a new yorker and hope others are outraged to know the new york police department is spying on innocent americans in their neighborhoods. the last point i want to make, the terrorist investigation, if they open one, anyone who comes into that facility that is under investigation is subject to that investigation. if my organization has a terrorist investigation, that means every staff member, family member, client, every vendor we work with is subject to this investigation by the new york police department. >> tell us about the nypd soccer league. >> they program the nypd counts and the community outreach program, and something we believe we were involved in
because we wanted to get kids off the street and play sports and was organize support competition between kids from different boroughs. it was fun. we joined. we had a team, brooklyn united. it was great. it was fun. we have a huge trophy. what we later learned from secret documents is the new york police department was using a sports league -- and imagine your child is part of this leak and is being spied on by the new york police department. the police department map out for you two different documents. where did the arabs play soccer? arabs are not the only ones that play soccer. deftly not in new york city. i feel the information gets more outrageous come and that even something as simple as sports, playing soccer, something that is under the territory of the new york police department.
our kids were being spied on when all they wanted to do was beat some people or some other kids in another borough. i think the families were like, how my spouse to explain to them i didn't know, is that i had no intention of subjecting their children to intelligence gathering by the new york police department? i personally get put in a position that commissioner kelly and his people put us in. the arab officers who worked in the community affairs department , i don't know if they knew, but if they did know, shame on them for allowing us to be a part of something they knew had ultimate reasons. >> there is a lot of public protest against top and frisk year. how has it been to organize resistance to be spying on your community? what are you finding in terms of the public's perception to this program? now, and iork right think in the country as a whole, you will find it is more likely for people to say, stopping 685,000 blacks and latinos, that
is racist. i think we're finding more people. i am part of the stop and frisk movement as someone who is not black or latino. with the spying, it has been hard to get able to understand it is the same thing. there are both discriminatory policies that target people of color. the problem with our movement is that it is framed in the sense of personal security come as a people like, well, if you are doing anything wrong, what is the problem? i think that is where the fundamental principles of who we are as americans and what our rights are, right to privacy. i shouldn't have to worry about working in an organization that is infiltrated by the new york police department. it is been a little difficult for us to organize around this. >> begin to msnbc last month, new york police commissioner ray kelly responded to the report i the nypd hast labeled mosques as terrorist organizations. kelly insisted the nypd's
operations are legal. >> i haven't seen the story, but they're hyping a book coming out next week. actually, the book is based on a compilation of about 50 articles that two ap reporters did on the department. it is a reflection of the articles and the book will be a fair amount of fiction, half- truths, lots of quotes from unnamed sources. our sin is to have the temerity, the chutzpah, to go into the federal government territory of counterterrorism were trying to protect the city by supplementing what the federal government has done. >> you do agree entire mosques should not be labeled terrorist organizations, right? >> of course. we do according to law, what we are investigating, and how we toestigated is now pursuant federal judges directions. >> that was ray kelly, new york police commissioner, who was
reportedly one of the people being considered to head the department of homeland security. adam goldman, there was a lot there, accusations that your reports are fiction and based on unnamed sources. >> well, one of the things we tried to do in this book that the nypd doesn't do is you try to be incredibly transparent. if ray kelly gets the chance to read the book, you'll find many people spoke on record about what the nypd was doing. thed individuals, including man who ran the demographics unit. another thing we tried to do is and know the secret documents leaked to us of the reader themselves can go look at the end note and go to our website and read the secret files themselves. and in anall that out effort to be completely transparent. is assiduously
reported, as "the wall street journal" says. another point i want to make about race comments is that -- ray's comments, he won't engage with us on the book and he is never engaged with us either on the book or our reporting. matt and i went to great lengths in the book to make a good case for why the nypd felt like they needed these programs in the aftermath of 9/11. >> talk about the head of the demographics unit they can to be completely disturbed about what his unit was doing. legendary narcotics detective. he was taking down drug dealers, taking guns off the streets. he was also a military reservist. >> his name? >> hector. after 9/11, he spent time in and was their post-
invasion. he came back to new york and they offered him this job to run the secretive unit that he was unfamiliar with. and he took this job. that, hey, there are bad guys in new york, there are bad guys in new york, al qaeda in new york. he believed it. he said himself he sort of drink the kool-aid. as he went on running this unit, he began to get frustrated to see he had really talented detectives with really great when which skills -- language skills, and they were making any cases. it was more about effectiveness, is this an effective way to use resources of talent to police investigators? these were guys who are used to putting bad guys in jail, right? taking drugs off the street, taking guns off the streets. guns kill people. instead, he was writing
intelligence reports about what people think of the state of the union address. i think he got frustrated and disillusioned with the program. >> can you talk about the issue of oversight? first of all, this raises a lot of civil rights issues. has there been a response from the justice department on the white house? talk about what kind of oversight exists. >> and what is happening now? >> everything we talk about in the book, with the exception of a few sort of insular programs, at the core of the book, to our knowledge, still happening now. the fascinating issue of oversight, the nypd gets money from the city council every year, obviously, the council never held a hearing to actually look into the intelligence programs. they have never been subjected to an audit. the intelligence division gets money from the white house under drug trafficking brand.
the white house says, we don't have -- we don't know what the money is used for. you can't hold us to account with what the nypd does with the money. congress has funded these programs. they don't know, aren't equipped to know, don't ask. homeland security and the department of justice have spent $1 billion, $2 billion at the nypd since 9/11 and say they don't know what is going on. they say they don't have the ability to know. essentially, there is no outside oversight of the nypd intelligence division. the programs are opened in house. they don't have to be approved by a judge or prosecutor. i like to talk about how we have all the federal prosecutors and the district attorney, but they don't actually decide when the intel division can open the case. so there isn't the kind of outside review you would see at the cia or the fbi.
ofm our standpoint, the lack transparency, the fact this was all done in secret with no public airing, is what drove us to write the book. -- peopleu can't can't give their informed consent to a program they don't know exist, don't know what they're giving up or getting in exchange. >> three quickly, as we come to the end of this conversation, a key figure? >> the book in its essence is a thriller book. this is essentially 48 hours inside new york city as the entire intelligence apparatus of the united states tries to unravel the most serious al qaeda plot since 9/11, inside the united states, three young men led by najibullah zazi with a bomb bring down on new york city subways, and had this been
successful, it would cost hundreds if not thousands of fatalities. we take a real critical look -- or we think a role for a look, at what works and what doesn't. and what we found is at every isortunity, that zazi interacting with these intelligence programs of the nypd. >> they were in his temperament. >> the richest ever had, in his mosques, had turned his you momento corporative. they hadn't undercover in his mosque. they were in the travel agency that he bought the train tickets. this is not a failure of resources. >> what happened? >> you have to read the book to find out how they stopped him, come on. the subways don't blow up. goodcollaboration, cooperation. >> adam, what surprised you the most enduring a series of articles? the book is more of the
compilation of the articles. >> i think what most surprised us in doing a series that led to the pulitzer prize, we knew they were in the mosques and they had informants in the mosques, under covers and the mosques. ray said, well, we're just following leads. this is all legal. that is been the phrase, it's all legal. we really didn't understand how it was legal. how can you just be -- >> i think people might be surprise that the cia is involved in local surveillance. >> right. the we obtained documents while writing the book that showed this is how they were doing that. we learned about the tourism enterprise investigation. realistically, we understood, oh, right. the openness investigation on sometimes been suspicion and use that to gather intelligence on his mosques and the leadership of the mosques for years and years and years. they never made it tourism enterprise case. by designating the mosque a
tourism enterprise, they could send in their informants and undercover's, spy gadgets to, listening devices. raynt to make a point about -- >> ray kelly, the commissioner. >> we're not questioning ray kelly's patriotism. we are not questioning his ability as police chief to keep the city better. i guess what we're doing is, and maybe to use one of his words, it is chutzpah. i guess we have the chutzpah to ask questions about what the police department is doing and whether these tactics work. >> we will leave it there, but we will continue to talk to you as you continue to uncover what is taking place. thank you both for being with us, and congratulations on your pulitzer prize are series of articles. the new book is, "enemies within: inside the nypd's secret spying unit and bin laden's final plot against america." matt apuzzo and adam goldman.
and thank you, linda sarsour. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. at awe come back, we look terrorist attack that occurred 50 years ago this past sunday september 15, 1963, and it happened in the birmingham baptist church. or thettle girls fatalities. we will stick with the fit who did not die, but lost her eye. stay with us. ♪ [music break]
we also have an in-depth page that features on our recent interviews about the civil rights movement and the pivotal year for 1963. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with aaron maté. carole robertson, cynthia wesley and addie mae collins. those are the names of the young women killed 50 years ago this week on september 15, 1963, when the ku klux klan bombed the 16th street baptist church in birmingham, alabama. the bombing came less than a month after the march on washington. denise was 11 years old, the others were 14. hundreds gathered in the nation's capital last week to honor their memory and lawmakers awarded the girls the congressional gold medal. guest is a woman who is often referred to as the fifth victim of the bombing, sarah collins rudolph was 12 years old when the church was attacked. she was standing next to her sister addie mae collins. sarah collins rudolph was hit with shards of glass, lost tonight and was hospitalized for months. today she continues to live in birmingham, alabama, where she
joins us now. it is such an honor to have you with us, sarah collins rudolph. can you talk about that day 50 years ago, where you were when the dynamite exploded? >> yes. i was in the ladies lounge when the bomb went off. i remember cynthia, denise, and carole walking inside the lounge area and went where the stalls were. denyseey came out, passed by addie and asterisk tied a sash on her dress. i was at the sink. when jimmy's asked her to tie the sash, i was looking at her when she began to tie it. then all of a sudden, boom!
i never did see her finish her tying it. all i could do was cry out jesus! i didn't know with a loud sound was. i called,addie! she didn't answer me. i thought the girls had ran on the other side of the church were the sunday school area was. all of a sudden i heard a voice outside saying, somebody bombed the 16th street church. it was so clear to me as though this person was right there, but .hey were outside there was a whole. all of the debris came rushing in. i was hit in my face with glass and also in both eyes.
came, his name was samuel rutledge, he came in and inked me up and carried me the indolence was out there ambulance wasthe out there waiting. they rushed me to the hospital. there, my sister and i asked her, where is addie? she said addie hurt her back but would be here tomorrow to see me. to the rushed me on up operating room and operated on both of my eyes and took the glass from my face. i had glass in my chest and stomach. they operated on me. when i went back to the room -- and i stayed there in the
hospital for about two and a half months. when they took the bandages off my eyes, the doctor asked me what i could see out of my right eye. i told him i couldn't see anything out of my right eye. when he took it off my left eye, all i could see was just a little light. >> i am so glad that you are able to join us today. we wanted to over the past few days, but you work as a maid in birmingham and this is your day off. talk about compensation? did you ever receive compensation for what happened to you? no, i haven't received anything yet. i don't know why, but i have been seeking compensation for
years but i never did get anything. it was like the people just looked over me. they didn't realize being in a bomb at the age of 12, i lost a lot of things. concerning my health, you know, and also i wanted to be a nurse but by having posttraumatic stress syndrome, that never did happen. that bomb really changed my whole life. i had to work as being a made i wasn't as smart as i was. before the bomb, i was an a student but after the bomb, i just couldn't think much anymore. >> and of course you lost your sister as well, addie mae collins, your older sister.
was 14.2, she did you feel you cannot find a safe place? after all, you're bombed in a church, the place he went for sanctuary. -- the place you went for sanctuary. >> you would think that going to church is really a safe place, but but it wasn't. somebody that would put a bomb in a church and kill four innocent girls, you know, that is just the work of the devil. that should never have happened. these girls were young. we were waiting that day for youth service. but by the bomb going off, we didn't get a chance to attend youth service. does it feelh, how when you hear that people say, this bombing helped set off the civil rights movement? you know, i've been hearing
that for a long time but for people to just get a from four girls getting killed, that should never be. we should always just love each other anyway because we're all human beings. god made us all. by them getting killed, that was just something awful. i think about it all the time. we should have peace, we should love one another. prejudiced and violent like that to place a bomb in a church simply because of people's race. >> sarah collins rudolph, were also joined by adam goldman, we're just talking him about the new york police department, but before you were at a peak, you're it "birmingham news." talk about who did this and your correspondence with the killer. >> when i was reporter there, i cover the trial of thomas
blanton, junior, one of three people who were convicted of carrying out this horrific bombing. thomas blanton is the only surviving bomber. the other two guys are dead. prison was put away in with a life sentence. i have been corresponding with him, trading letters with blanton. he is unrepentant. still to this day, he says he didn't have anything to do with this bombing. >> sarah collins rudolph, llamas refused the congressional gold medal. why? during that time, i didn't really even know they had offered me a gold medal and tell just last week. somebody was telling me about it in the "usa."
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