tv Quadriga - The International Talk Show LINKTV April 19, 2018 10:00pm-10:31pm PDT
[captions made possible by kcet television] >> welcome to quadriga. the focus is on israel, which is celebrating the 70th anniversary of the birth o of the jewish in 194848. 1948.ish faith in cereremonies have been taking placace to mark the achievements of the past seven decades. today, israel is a democracy, a military superpower, and a technological heavyweight. but for the palestinians, the emergence of israel was a catastrophe.
they are battling for what they believe is their land and future. at least 30 palestinians have been killed and many more wounded in the latest clashes on the border. the latest question on quadriga this week, is israel at 70 a troubled anniversary? oferswer, i am joined by waldman, a musician and journalist. he is also the head of a fund contributing to society in israel and palestinian rights. israel stands at the most crucial crossroads in its history. also with us is akron baker. akram argues with his ever-increasing right-wing nature, israel at 70 is increasing the end of the zionist experiment. and a warm welcome to shani rozanes, deutsche bahn the --
welle's commentator in berlin. thank you all for being here. i would like to begin with you, over. have you been celebrating? ofer: that is a difficult question. when i was talking to my parents who live in jerusalem, i could hear the excitement in their voices. they were there in 1948, so for them it is a miracle. looking atr hand, the news we have from israel these days, the demonstrations from gaza and conflict with iran, i hope israel will be able state in a way that will make sure we celebrate and 10, 20, or 70 years again. >> you were born in jerusalem. i recall you saying jerusalem was a state of mind.
let's take that further and say israel is a state of mind. describe a state of mind at this point in time. a difficult decision was made by the american president to move the u.s. embassy to jerusalem. my take is that it was a goodod decision because jerusalem is the capital city of israel and represents israelis -- jerusalem as the capital city of israel represents israelis. you have a separation between different groups, between arab israelis and jewish israelis. remindssense, jerusalem us of the challenges with which israel is confronted, and we teed of here in germany -- and we too here in germany. at 70, what does it mean to you? lots of trouble,
lots of challenges, but i want to break the gloom and doom factor we are about to launch here. it has been 70 years for what was an incredible act of statehood. this in the context of nation building 70 years is not a long time, and these challenges israel is facing, some of them are pressing and need to be solved sooner rather than later. they cannot overshadow everything. we need to still keep in mind -- offer bank -- ofer was talking about his parents' memory. if you put this in context, it brings us back to 1948 to the survivors of the holocaust, one of the biggest tragedies, most atrocious parts of human history . coming together and managing to .uild this state , when youthing that
think about it, it is hard not to be touched. >> when you talk about these achievements, what are you the most out of? -- most proud of? shani: the culture. these are the thinkers and writers and poets. they bring us hope. these are the things that keep us going 70 years on. when you look at what happens in the political sphere of one hand , that's one thing, but israel is a strong society. it has very strong, independent press. these independent voices coming from the culture of liberal thinking of critical of their own government, this is still part of israel as well. we are looking at the next 70 years, this is what we need to hold onto. shani rozanes has used the
word "hope" five or six times in that statement. what is your take on this? >> it has been a nightmare state of mind for us, for palestinians, for the past 70 years. the grandfather of modern hebrew, he was one of the largest proponents of palestinian statehood and palestinian rights to exist. israel is a zionist experiment. if we want to talk about the holocaust and the horrors of that. thethe problem is, most of most violated people in israel have been the survivors of the holocaust. many of them are very pro-palestinian and have been against what the state of israel has done. shani: that's what i'm saying. unfortunately, israel
continues to use the holocaust as an excuse for his policies, whereas the holocaust was a s,ime against jew gays, and many other people. but it was a crime by europeans against their own people. it had nothing to do with palestine and the injustice that was done to palestinians. your miracle was created on our catastrophe, through an injustice. right now, for me to say i want the destruction of israel so i can build a state of palestinian would be nothing but another injustice, which i don't want to happen. , thet is your policy policies of the israeli government, and this transformation of israeli society into a right-wing, vicious society which is hastening its own demise. images for the
viewers, and i will come straight back to you, because the birth of the state of israel came shortly after the end of and thend world war holocaust, the mass murder of european jews. never again will we allow ourselves to be made victims, say the israelis. in the declaration of the state of isrsrael in 1948 gave jews around the world their own homeland, but israel found itself at war with five europe nations during the conflict. thousands of palestinians fled from their homelands in what they call catastrophe. two groups of people fighting for the same homeland. i think this is unfortunately the challenge that israel has failed to take upon but i don't think that acknowledging the palestinians'
suffering is contradicting the belief that jews have place in the land of palestine, and i think both palestinians and jews , at least at the moderate ones, know and understand his two people will have to find a way to coexist, and a lack of success is a tragedy, and there is no doubt that if we look at who is paying the price for the , there is no doubt on who is carrying the burden on their shoulders. but if you look into the future, no one will benefit from the demise of the state of israel. it is about finding a way to make this work for both people somehow. can i interject? i completely object to a jewish state, just as i object to a muslim, christian, or just state . there is no such thing as democracy in a jewish state. >> ofer, you're looking thoughtful. i find both halves
struggling with each other. first of all, i think israel was founded not only because of the holocaust. there wouldld be a zionist entiy within palestine with or without the holocaust. the thing we have to remember about the holocaust, as was specially we were in -- as especially we moved from remembering the holocaust, is the universalistic lessons it gives us. i must say, when you speak about israel is only 70 years old, we have the basic construction flaw in the heart of this beautiful house called the state of israel . this is the field partnership with palestinians. a great writer said a few days be the homewill not without the palestinians having a home, and without us to
cooperate. when you say israel is a great country, it does. i can tell you speaking as [indiscernible] the critical voices within israel are withstanding massive attacks from one side of israeli politics, because the critics say that if this construction , the foundation of our joint home, will not be --rected i disagree, you can't compare a jewish state to a christian state, but if we both start to talk to each other, it is not that in 100 years the state of israel will be older and wiser. i believe that if we keep on like this, there will be no state of israel as we know it today. [applause] please -- [laughter] >> please, ladies first. shani: there are challenges,
many problems. i don't think we can belittle or diminish any of them. refusethe same time, i to fall into this endless, hopeless, bleak look into the future and thinking this is going nowhere. there is a difference within the political regime that we see now. it feels like it has been there forever and will stay forever, but life in politics, it's not like that. there could be a situation in five years, things might look better. they might not. but we need to find critical -- we need to fight. critical voices need to fight to make sure changes are made in the right direction. there is good thought on both sides. i think at this particular day, one day of the year, i want to try and stick to hope.
you really wanted to use the good people on both sides? [laughter] ofer: i agree with you and that there has to be a solution. the problem is the zionist narrative does not allow for the palestinians' right to exist as a nation. i believe there will be amended to to israel as a jewish state -- there will be an end to israel as a jewish state, which i hope, and there will be a real democratic state called israel, palestinian, whatever you want -- palestine, whatever you wana, where one person has equal rights under the law. this is a land for all the people who live there, jews, christians, atheists, muslims, buddhists, whoever you like. the stage is for citizens and the people who live there, not for one religion over another. that is the only way israel can continue.
shani: the hopeless optimist is you, not me. outsider, at this time, a lot of people, outsiders, are talking about the achievements that israel has made. you are dismissing the very notion already. people talk about the flourishing economy, democracy in israel. do you dismiss this? say similar achievements have not necessarily been made on the palestinian side because the israelis have been -- akram: peter, there were not two sides. israel is the master. israel controls everything. they occupied palestine. palestine is a state of mind. it has no controls. israel controls everything. the fact that people have been
celebrating, of course, these are the enablers. that are the same enablers have allowed the israeli economy to flourish with my tax dollars as an american, and israel is in a bubble. take away the tax dollars. the israeli economy would not be flourishing. another thing, gaza -- i disagree with your thing -- these are not clashes at the border. this was a massacre of nonviolent civilian protesters by israeli snipers. there were 35 to 40 people killed, murdered, and over 2000 people wounded with live ammunition. if this had been turned around and palestinians had gotten shot 500 yards across the fence, this would have been all over the press, nonstop, day in and day out, but the western enablers not do that. first of all, the
achievements in the state of israel in all fields are not jewish achievements, they are achievements of the state of israel, which means they are also achievements of palestinian brothers and sisters who are citizens of the state of israel. of course you u have discrimination within israel, but i would not call the ofmendous, important part palestinians -- they are called arab israelis. the thing is this, what happened , shooting at unarmed demonstrators, most of them were unarmed demonstrators. i agree with you. most of these things, i agree with you. i don't know about speaking one man, one boy, the end of the zionist project. design is project seceded, so now we are in the next phase. -- the zionist project succeeded
, so now we are in the next phase. ok, we have common ground, we disagree about certain things. the same thing we can do in israel. if we find common ground in a model of citizenship which takes the jewish part, which takes the palestinian part, i think this sovereignty within israel and palestine. a key my friend, there is points that i completely disagree with you on. we can find common ground because we are living in germany, all the same under the law. if i was in israel, you could come as a soldier and bar me from coming to tel aviv by setting up a checkpoint outside my house. in if i come into your house tel aviv and put a checkpoint in front your house and prevent you from coming to jerusalem, that is the difference. , or in are in israel
palestine, we don't have the same rights. i cannot speak like you. melinda: let's -- peter: let's shift the focus and talk about ties between israel and germany. we are sitting here in germany talking about what's going on far away. there have been real tensions at times in the last year or so between israel and germany. each side has snubbeded the o o, but t now the relationship seems to have entered a new phase. visithifirst official to israel, the new foreign minister wanted to strike a new town in the recently strained relations between the two countries. his efforts were well received. i am learning more and more from europe history. >> the foreign minister wants to bring impetus to solving old
problems. foreign langu age] >> i think we are in sync on our objectives area of the state of germany will always be alongside israel and all of these questions. still, those differing views are not on minor matters. for instance, germany continues to support a two-state solution despite israel's controversial settlement policy. the positions are poles apart. so, how much friction can the german-israeli friendship tolerate? peter: so much to talk about, so little time. is the government right to cling to the two-state solution? shani: it is right in the sense that germany is in the same line with most of the other european nations, and up until recently the u.s.
end?this make it closer to will this be eventually the solution? it is not up to germany or anyone else. it is up to palestinians and israelis. the two state solution is an idea that, on one hand, many agree is the only way to save israel, but we have roaming numbers of people supporting these voices that maybe it is too late and we need to find other solutions, like maybe a one state solution that is democratic. peter: if that is a route the , what couldgo down germany facilitate in that equation? i think germany could be an honest broker, just as the united states could. the problem is, when they say it has to be the two sides to come up with the solution, we are not
neutral, as western countries, in this equation. western countries, the united states and germany, have given close to unconditional support to israel while denying this to the palestinians. they are not honest brokers. they are n not neutral in this equation. if they were, then i think there could be promise. it's interesting, when the foreign minister of germany entered office, and his speech, he said, "the reason i wanted politics is auschwitz." it is given as an example that he is going to have a different politic than his predecessor. his predecessor set as well, i am in politics because my father was a national socialist, all the way until he died.
-- thes you that germany israel perspective can go this way or that way, so don't think there is one voice regarding israel. israel calls itself a liberal democracy, and it is for its citizens, not for all inhabitants. mostly jewish citizens. but not all of the people living under israeli rule are living under occupation. this is the key ququestion, what can n germany do? involved with the affairs of another country is difficult, but if israel calls itself a liberal democracy, then ok, welcome to the club. in order to be a part of this club, you have to observe human rights and equality for all citizens. it is positive politics that the --man government can pursue an excuse me, if it is ok to okd some marines, if it is
to support israel and other matters, why is it not ok to take part in the regional politics that israel is a part of individually? shani: i don't ever think germany can be a neutral broker. we see a slight change in german policy towards israel, more of a critical voice. they are much more loud today than in the past. but i don't see how germans let themselves be the ones pressuring israel because of the burden of the past, because of the fear, because of the discourse we are so used to that is dominated by the holocaust. .kram: quickly, i just want to say there was no israel before 1948. beingt like world war ii reduced to the holocaust, as horrible as it was. the fact is that what happened
happened to european jews and not the state of israel. the state of israel, as far as i know, does not speak for every jew in this world, no matter what it likes to proclaim. criticizing and putting pressure on the state of israel has nothing to do with being jewish. that's my point. add, this touches a wound here in germany, because very often we speak about israel and then we moved to the discussion involving anti-cynicism in germany. it is not the same topic. people getting into arguments on streets because of that, that's one thing. people who get attacked because they have a yarmulke on their head, that's a different thing. it is something to keep in mind when you speak about amit -- anti-semitic some in europe. peter: where do you want the
situation to go next? akram: i hope there is an end to this conflict. that can only be by ending the israeli occupation of palestine, and whether that is a situation where we have a democratic state, or it just stays [indiscernible] which in my opinion no longer exists. shani: i think the end-all is peace. how do we get there? i don't know. i think it is going to be a much longer process. ofer: a good partnership. a civil partnership. that's the solution. peter: thanks for being with us here today on "quadriga." see you next week. ♪
[applause] joshua fouts: such a great pleasure to be with you all here today, and it is an even greater pleasure for me to be able to introduce to you our next speaker. our next speaker is someone i have known for quite a few years, and i have been trying to get him to speak to you since i began at bioneers 4 years ago. there are two main reasons i thought cory doctorow could make an invaluable contribution to our gathering. first, i think he is one of the most visionary, prophetic, and lucid science fiction authors of our era. some of his work has profound things to tell us about our society and its possible futures. the other, more pressing reason is because i think the battle for an open think the battle for an open internet, one we are in the
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