hello and welcome to dw's international talk show quadriga where today we're talking about the one thousand battle hardened islamic state fighters and their fafamilies from germany. some of them are now on their way back home many are already here following i *-*- collapse in syria and iraq. both men and women and among them are vicious killers and war criminals. of those who have returned a number are already on trial what's your germany do with the. today answer for their crimes to be sent to prison should social workers help them. integrate back into society into

neighborhood schools workplaces. islamic state terror today just how dangerous are returning i. s. fighters i'm brian thomas and joining me here in berlin to talk about that. is on here miss our he works for media outlets here in germany and in iraq. he says some i. s. returnees are dangerous but more dangerous is the updated ideology they bring with them. alan posers a commentator for the daily newspaper develop he argues if we want other states to take back to their citizens who we consider terrorist. then we have to take back our citizens who have committed terrorist acts. and kristin helberg is a featured mideast analyst a number of european publications she points out. hi yes is militarily defeated but not ideologically the west must help the kurds in dealing with the jocks. a warm welcome to all of you and

to those of you joining us from around the world kristin if we could -- let's start with you you've also written two books about this topic about hi yes about syria. you spend a lot of time in the country let's get a a demographic of our average i. s. fighter jihadists who is he and what drew him. to fight in syria to fight in iraq well it's not that easy because behind the one thousand fifty german i as fighters that i'll one thousand personal stories. they are quite young the majority of them they have radicalized very quickly usually over the internet. so some of them are converts german citizens convert some of them are migration of they have a migration background in germany but i think what generalizes them would be that they feel a limit at elated from german society that felt that this is not the country this would be. from women for example who left. for the caliphate was sent that i don't want to educate my children in this country i feel i'm a part of this country personal frustration maybe as a

muslim feeling you know. this new anti muslim of ideas and many german citizens so this is a general question off why did these citizens german citizen not feel at home in germany okay then how that their medical as you know this is a this is basically an internet problem. at an internet probably get back to that aspect let's talk about the alienation first allen if you could pick up on that. is it a failure of integration - into german society is a result of the rise of the right what's behind. so many young people. sympathizing with i. s. and even going to fight in -- a rack in syria for them now returning home. no i don't think it is neither of age of integration although integration. has failed in some respects noises you with being discriminated against -- nor really is it or that many people i mean -- we have had home grown terrorism here think of the so called red army facaction the movement of the second of june

people of my generation went underground and they had. thousands of sympathizers hundreds of people who went underground helped them in all sorts of organizations and they when i the alienated know what they no converts to islam or anything so. there you disagree disagree with chris and you think they're not alienated. hey be alienated biz not because they're being discriminated against i think it's something that happens that can happen to you quite. quickly in a e. as as as it could cause the said would over the internet suddenly you find something that seems to explain all your problems. and and gives you a purpose in life and and off you go and you know i we had this with with you it is interesting because the r. f. the red army faction on the one hundred these. highly intelligent -- intellectuals on and on the other hand you as sort of semi criminal korea's hooves and they they bonded and is quite similar with i. s. you have these. semi criminals all real

criminals and but then he was a very intelligent. converts often -- who take the added the ideology off i islamit hoff understood and cononverts t into something which reminds me again more? of european terrorism than of anything you know from his life and he's all of the the similarities certainly the danger amy are. you say that these individuals these young men are dangerous but more dangerous is the ideology can can you expand on that exactly because i think when we defeated dot a qaeda military i kinda still existing till now. and i think this given example how the idol you still existingg with that's people that detainees when they come back here not all of them of course most of my most of them there are still. dangers and they have equipped with the military training today quip themselves with the ideology they just found that image imagination that's we can live in the state. governed by sherry are this is

possible okay the the the the project is filled about still the hope still existing and i think we should just be careful who are we going to bring back. which casey is how distance is he from this that a diligent i i think the most dangerous is the woman be because they are more of the allies than the man. and i i think the combination between what back to the question of why they left germany and i think the combination of the individual problem. what? you are so the problem and the international jihadism. it is not a figment just in germany looks to hold europe it's ward why the problem with this fixed in one time in one place is the toxic view of the brew is an exact personal problems in the ideology. of kristen didn't pick it up actually i what what what elena said okay it's i think it's very important i would very much agree on that i think. that jihadi i don't know gee it's some kind of a youth

movement as it was thirty years ago with the left so that i wouldn't know if you're aware of the way if you wanted to step up against the society as a whole you were looking for justice justice. is a major feature if you talk to xtramath is all about creating it just stayed just order. so at that time it was leftist marxist idea and now it's is not so it's really it's some kind of a fashion as well youth fashion that is. very easily promoter for the internet that gets to these people because it attracts them it attracts women and you pointed out. that that -- it is in fact young women and amy are that's what the new research is showing is that young women are specially attractive why are would they be especially tractor young women particularly -- optimistic were what quality do they have. the quality of women is kind of a digitizing for the i. especially women coming from -- western countries just to get it to save for the localize. members look that people have everything in europe but they

left them back and they come to us that give us. a credibility that's we are in the right time and the right to bed truck and a b. sides of thi. they married with fighters also it is by the that is something interesting and i think. when we look for one example we said we saw a women -- merit -- i as fight our way into cda he killed in the fighting game she came back to germany. and matted and another guy and when to gains to the secondd tie there this is a nickel this is an example show you how dangerous they are. you've interviewed a number of of the i. s. -- women -- women though the brides of the i. as fighters -- it was there an attraction to the anti feminist message that is part of the i. s. ideology what what drew the men though the women yoyou talk. what what well in the end of the day that's women live in the

kind of sure ya? imagination the woman for a play the role as a host wife she should serve her man and she she should keep herself in holes she serve the religions she serve the gods when she said of her man. this is a kind of anti you can say i i antivenomom ism like t . but also with the criminal energy inside because they look to others as unbelievers and they do not accept even to talk with someone i came from iraq and i talk with her. she said i don't want to talk with you because you are unbelievable. something like this all prospective. jurors are you can roll your eyes a bit -- christian. that's true but we shouldn't forget that one third of the i. s. final already came back and among them a lot of women who have completed disillusioned because they went they they thought the caliphate was some. place some ideal plays you know well the people would live in in respect and injustices and

everybody would have his plays and she would have an important role to play. and they will exploit and they were exploited all they felt that this is not the place that they would remain also they came back so not all of them of his very eyes ideologically acceptance persons we have. to admit and i think that the women that other convinced of it they feel that they have a certain place they they have an important role to play. they they are respected as a woman they are against this -- sexualized role of women in the west you know they would criticize is obviously because we have a problem with the windows rolled them into a role model of limits on the left of center. this. of the one thousand and two of them would be something you know that. doesn't help them in their rights but something that that they feel that then they would lose the dignity okay that perspective let's meet one of these women right now among those returning from the battlefields of syrian iraq. as we've been discussing -- not only hardened warriors but also women and children the wives sons and daughters of those combatants one woman attempting to get back to germany is i. s. wife.

now living in the syrian refugee camp with our summer sun she says she was forced into the situation and was a captive bride of islamic state. the room somewhere in northern syria. tens of thousands of people live in the overcrowded refugee camp. among them children wounded men and women and perhaps islamic state militants. want to return to their home countries as quickly as possibl. one is they not give. she used to live in berlin with her turkish husband. on a visit to turkey he forced her to accompany him to syria when he joined the i. s. according to her statements. now her husband is dead. as a strictly spots the eases it's horrible the crimes isis committed in the name of islam. i'm hoping i'll be allowed to come back to my beloved home country germany. hi martin i'm don't cheat on her son was born during the war.

now she's hoping the worst is behind her [inaudible] talk she cruel things happened there. women and children have no value at all. women were horribly mistreated by isis honda. whether complicit or not should isis followers get a second chance. what do you think there is she telling the truth and how do you go about ascertaining something like that you know this is a standard and so what we get when we interview that? this people that they don't have that they don't accept the islamic state the intelligence so on but i think thihis is. we should really think about what they say because i i i voted for me personally i do not believe her because she says she live in islamic state till two thousand nineteen for almost four years. that for yearsrs there where may maybes choses to lift -- the the state and to go to surround himself and we sold many cases

by the way that women really do not accept. a two minute break well it's a difficult sunday managed to the tool tool t to go back bots in e end of the day -- we should think about who are going to come back. in which cases on whole distance has a or they have for the for the ideology and the really if it's in the it's need a lot of work it's the need evidence. when you go to the court you should bring but but -- black and white and the kurds who are. in control of much of the area where these -- former i ask people are are being held so it's very difficult to get that kind of evidence alan what do you think how should we deal with these cases should they be tried in syria. these should be for these individuals once they return here is subject to german law. i'm well. well look i i'm glad that we

have this problem because remember how we pointed the finger at the united states about guantanamo they had similar problems that these two have been. found on the battlefield -- they will obviously had been five does that but you know you couldn't prove it what to do with them so they dump them in a sort of extra legal. a place called one time when we are doing the same with these people were saying to the kurds. you hang on to them we don't want them for whatever reason now. we can do that but then we at war that ought to be we'll devote to climb off on our high horse with regards to when tenable what i think since we have put ourselves. on this position that we say everyone deserves a fair trial that a person like the the wounded young woman who just heard.. shouldld come back to book a to germany and make a case and it should be charged with membership of a of a foreign terrorist organization paragraph one and twenty nine eight and it's two or three years in prison -- and you can make a case and i'm see if if if if if one can believe that i think that's that's one after this another compelling -- issue here and that's what to do about the children what about her little

boy. that's very important because most of these children a very young age they are between one and five years old so really to leave them. in syria or iraq means that we are creating a next generation off young people will have not entered school were not educated with only notified so we can really not afford this though to take care of the children. we dididn't really need a whole set of measures i think it's such a many we need the jurisdiction of course we have a state of law we have everything we need to have a loss. that we need to we have to find proof but it's not it's not that difficult in terms of terrorist organization because you have to prove that they actively supported a terrorist organization. which sometimes it's easier because you find evidence on the internet because they themselves post with victims and with what they did so that it had a certain sums. messy to be honest though not an uneasy but if i i'd like. to ask what to do with the children though as we as we you know we have to close out of here. one point the other thing a social work it's the only thing is like with the other thing is psychological -- what

because obviously who work with these children will try to be radicalized and we'll try to give them a try to to try to set them on zero and start again basically? you have to look rather work very closely with the families of these former i. s. members the families of the women for example maybe the grandparents would take off here in german is what's happening actually this some. experience with this from the last few years when they when the first came back the first few members. amir how do how do other -- islamic countries deal with this problem other arab countries deal with the problem of foreign fighters and returning home their wives their children. or is it different in egypt for example or saudi arabia -- how they approach this issue? well -- they have also kind of free dhea colors i sink -- programs for examines or the abbia we'll where they implementing goals so -- few richie cole of personal and also social worker.

and to get that updated needs -- in morocco for example internees about i think just the cold by step back for the question what we how we should -- the behave with that -- veneman i think the the most important question are we going to face the next generation of i. s.. i hope that i'm wrong but the question is yes because when i see the situation in and the girl that the pollution and the situation politics situation. now or syria and iraq in the making the same mistakes before and before [inaudible] two thousand fourteen rushing. undeveloped countryry without t. a man will be using the car to in the in a strong term and i think people in the end of the day they need. prosperity they need to halt they need they need to have. a kind of a light in the end of the tunnel two is the late to them from the i. s. members but when they come together in this social sin this situation. the i. as will the grown up

again again. i was like in a warm and virus that's waiting to emerge another proper conditions -- this is exactly what i mean when i'm saying we have not forwarded ideologically if you're talking about. really defeating isis on an ideological base we have to think about the reasons why people turn to i. s. and the conditions of life that they official we've determined there they could be personal as well as well as all the europeans we're talking about the regional if you look. at syria if you look at iraq if you look at egypt you have really the ground is prepared for an extremist organization to come back because we have to kate take care about education about political party when they say we are you talking about indignity international about. national community who was supposedly fighting eyes on isis but only on a militarily level which is not enough because we have to take care of of the regions. that we that west destroyed for example city of raqqa lies in ruins for libya right one and a half years after the revelation of record still lies in which is full of mines people are displaced. around by because they cannot

come back they don't have a dignified life they cannot politically participates nor the sunnis in iraq no don't even think about it. think about it. there's also turkeys in the region you can't just point your finger at no less. no you can't point because europe really hasn't learned the lesson from the arab arising stake they miss understand dictatorship with stability this is what we see in egypt if you put a young activist into. egyptian presence this is really what create makes him an extremist in the in the elements would you agree that the west has a special responsibility to go back to syria to iraq to stabilize them in a way. that -- precludes islamic state from rising again. yes i would agree -- a one of the big problems in in iraq was for instance when the americans with them they had this -- after a kind of a rose paddling from members of the old army in the baath party and so on and the americans under general petraeus at this -- john the arab awakening they defeated al qaeda not only military but also politically but then the

americans left. and i kind of comes back and the baath plus i comes back to as in the form of i. s. what's going on now in afghanistan. exactly so always we always you know i bless we we always think of we go in we we we we find. it and then we go out again that does work but that goes let's pick up on this and and the so the islamic state the aspirin if you will these so called islamic state. has been crushed on the battlefield in syria and iraq on the battlefield that is but it's far from a spent force in other countries. like some in africa and as far as field as indodonesia isis f figers were o othe advance. that w was in t twenty foururten the terroristt orgrganization tk the city of raqqa syria. was the start of five yearars of war ending w with thousands dead and captured. now isis is last fortification the village of baku's on syria's

border to iraq has fallen. the islamic state caliphate appears to be in an end with help frorom the internationonal alalliance combatting isis inine middle e east. but observers warn that isis still poses a danger. the extremist militants have gone underground in i iraq and elsewhere includiding t the lear abu backck here i'llll but dott. the terrorist militia can still mobilized thoususands of fightes and tens of thousands of sympathizers. the idea of the islamic state lives on since the summer of twenty eighteen around two hundndred and fifty attacks have been made outside of syria. how dangerous is isis now? i mean what do you think is i. s. more dangerous now than it was prior to its defeat in some ways i believe yes. because we are talking about million of the us dollars investing in a normal economy

that's e. as managed before they defeated in your rock and cd -- tool in turkey in europe. that out the money is there t te financing -- but the system is going on on the ground and be side of this at the steps that is sales still active we have about fifty attacks in iraq still till now every month. and the side of the fact that i. s. would like to show that they are still existing they are trying. to to make some attacks here a and there just to say we are still strong but i think in the end of the day the dangers will be less or more the bent on the question. how? how we are determined to to manage with this problem in the long term not in the short term just putting bombs as you say -- social because political -- engagement there's a there's a long term strategy that we need to have but allen it also needs to be a short term strategy we've had the christmas market

attack here. was an i. s. -- directly but nice affiliated individual our german authorities prepared for iso tax year. in. germany in a way that we you know if i say yes then tamara bomb goes off and and it's it's a seven goal you con be prepared can you because i mean we've seen all the mistakes that were made with the christmas market a tacky and it could. could have been prevented but it's easy to say that after the event i think german the german authorities. are i mean we we never hear about the many attacks that they foil we only hear about the ones that get a we did thahat go through i ask claimed responsibility for the christmas market a deal only with them like a franchise aren't they i mean. if a bomb goes off they say oh it was us and all the people who made the bombs at we're islamic state. you know you never know but loo. we're gonna have to live with terror of for the rest of our lives -- that's for sure. and we just gonna have to get used to it and and and react sometimes not. at the same time i agree with i

mean it's totally a long term strategy look what's happening in in sudan board and in algeria people want democracy people want to total change how they gonna leave them in the lurch are we gonna do something are you arguing for a return. of a strong american presence to the region something that under the current administration would be very difficult -- not only american european i mean it's our neighborhood it's not even america's neighborhood i mean i'm jerry i used to be a member of the european union when it was part of fronts. but it depends what kind of return will not talk about returning them for regime change we're not talking about going back telling the people whom to vote for what to do it's about. supporting the people that in these countries opt for civil society for liberty for freedom will stand up we'll have the the the the courage to do so these people feel let down completely by the european union and as this can turn up wherever in the world. they feel we have to really go back to the conditions of these people and how they live and to not have these have these conditions being abused by i let's wrap up with our central

question is hundreds of josh returned from. me eastern battlefields how dangerous is islamic state here in germany today in a numeric scale from one to five with five being. extremely dangerous how would you rate the dangerous threat. america we starting the area it is a question we should -- i'd set it in two parts one of them they are still dangerous some of them they are not special o of e children. but in the end of the day we should walk in the long term on this question. one to five what's your reading. danger level the five five i would say three based on them on ice them this will take the chance to work with the ones who are ready to assist with the other ones we have to put in jail. three find out. if you are ready to give us your rating. drop in with the comments on our you tube feed follow us on twitter give us your rating there how dangerous is i. as in germany right now what do you think would like to hear from you i'm brian thomas. for all the guests thanks so much for joining us and soul

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