tv The Dylan Ratigan Show MSNBC August 5, 2011 1:00pm-2:00pm PDT
i don't think they'd distinguish themselves. but you'll get into that. dylan, take it away. >> you have to know today, the big story today is job wars. happy friday to you. i am dylan ratigan, and by now you've probably seen the number. 9.1% for the most recent month, overall unemployment rate, down a tick from last month because the number of people considered to be in the work force continues to shrink, all of those american whose have simply quick looking for work are no longer counted. which means real unemployment is exactly double that number. 18.2%, or 1 in 5 is either looking for work and can't find it or stopped looking for work. the other number i'd like you to focus on today. 117,000. that's the number of jobs we created in the economic engine of our country last month. less than one tlerd of what we would need to be creating on a monthly basis to even address this crisis. remember, we need 360,000 job as
month to get anywhere close to that 6% unemployment number we enjoyed a few years ago. and that, of course, the barrier to all this, the political leaders who fail to address its underlying causes despite the rhetoric that offer us. >> what i want the american people and our partners around the world to know is this -- we are going to get through this. things will get better, and we're going to get there together. >> we'll get to the politics in a few. first, what's going on here? peter morici and the former right-hand man on the economy, and jared bernstein, pleasure to see the both of you. before we get into the whole, all the rest of it, look at the actual number, peter. what stands out to you from today's report? >> well, 117,000 jobs, as you said, about one-third may be less of what we really need to get, and i don't know how we get much higher then in the months ahead. you know, the economy appears to
be in a little better than neutral. it's moving forward. it's growing, but it's like a plan on a bicycle moving slowly. it would be easy for it to fall off. it's either got to speed up or fall off. i don't see in the end what will speed it up. >> jared, we did a series of reporting this week, jobs wanted series. we talk and trade policy. we talk about bank policy, tax policy. regardless of what you think those policies should or should not be, is it possible for any nation, america or any other nation, to have a robust economy if its policies don't incentivize investment in the country? >> i don't think so. especially at a time like now. if we were percolating along as full employment, the private investment machine as it were might be up and running. we certainly have low interest rates. that should be stimulating, but as you correctly pointed out it's not happening 3 firms are sitting on well over $2 trillion of cash. the key missing variable here is
demand. if consumers aren't walking into doors, into stores and into the small businesses, mid-size, large businesses, investors aren't motivated to sing that cash into new projects. >> consumption the foundation of the vast majority of the economic activity and prosperity in recent years. at the same time a lot of that consumption was funded through borrowed money, individually borrowed or institutionally borrowed or a surf rovereign le. is the debt crisis that led, or maybe perhaps fed into the consumption boom, a wake-up fall for us? in other words do we need to relook the way we're looking at tax policy, looking at banking policy an trade policy to drive investment and prauxz as opposed to consumption and borrowing? >> it's not just the policies you mention although they're all important. look, the american middle class got nowhere in the decade of the 2,000s.
median household income ended up just where it started. >> i got that. >> if you want to get he'd, you've got one choice, and that's to borrow. credit slow flowed freely. that's how that mechanism worked. we got to get the job market working, man. >> peter, when you look at it, though, there has to be another way to kraect jobs that's not just let's borrow money so people can consume worthless trinkets to create jobs for each other considering we have massive energy problem, massive health care problems, massive infrastructure problems. aren't the best jobs, jobs that actually solve problems? >> yeah. you talk about demand. you know, demand is growing. i took apart the numbers this week and since the recovery began, in real terms, demand has been growing in the united states at about 4.5%. in real terms annually. the problem is, imports have been rocketing. that comes down to oil and china. imports from china. fe we had a better trade policy and were developing for domestic oil and gas and jared and i can
quibble over how that should be but but agree it should be done, we could be energy independent. america could be energy independent and if we pushed out the chinese imports making them trade fairly, we'd have all the demands we need and be out of the soup. >> jared, is this -- for those who look at this and say, man i wish there was a political leader, a republican leader in the presidential field, the president himself, a democratic leader, who could seize the sword as it were and say we're going to create jobs on a mission to the moon. and that mission to the moon will not be the moon. the mission to the moon will be clean independent energy in america, or some equivalent. is that too naive? too simplistic to think if we just had a leader point us in a direction we could share this goal we might be able to get somewhere? >> i don't think it's naive or simplistic. we need simplicity. the complexities of financial
engineering haven't served u.s. very well. my only caveat, peter correctly cites the import and export and clean energy is part of the solution. put both together you'd solve a relatively small part of the problem. >> i disagree. >> no. we should do so. what are piimports? 12% to the economy. consumption, 70%, invest another 15%. we have to fire on numerous fronts. i like your idea of clean energy. that hits on the manufacturing sector on the energy sector, it hits on the investment sector. so there's a lot we could do there. >> and, again, the barrier -- the thing i get frustrated in hosting this show and people get frustrated in watching this show, sometimes, it's kwai hon notally because there's a ration's conversation, appears there's an opportunity to do something that's not happening, peter. and then we always come back to
the same answer, you guys aren't politicians, so it's a different situation, but i get a politician in the room. what's the barrier to clean energy agenda that would tap into trade deficit, investment in america, job creation, et cetera, et cetera. it always comes down to, oh, well, you know, the political process and the nature of special interests is such there's too much interest and blah, blah, blah and how many times will we have to walk up against that brick wall before we knock it down? >> energy requires, like going to a buffet. you don't want to take all of your meal by having salmon or all your meal by having the roast beef. if we combine, you know, more domestic -- >> that's not my question, peter. i'm certain that you -- >> let me get there. >> go ahead. sorry. >> if we have to -- we have to recognize getting there requires to us do things like new sources of energy. conventional oil and gas. better kovatio conservation. the republicans want one piece of that. they'd like to drill more.
the democrats would like another piece. electric cars. the reality, we freed to do all the things everybody wants to do, and that would generate much more than the percentages that jared points out, because it would generate so much domestic infrastructure and investment. the point -- >> a private infrastructure -- >> the point you made, bilks exactly right. however you want to combine it. what we need is leadership. it comes out with one simple message. here's my jobs plan. it's not a 15 point plan. not a plan that democrats or republicans have to fight about. nothing to do with deficits or debt. it has to do with, as you said a moon shot. whether it's clean energy, national infrastructure, rebuilding the public schools. let's come up with a plan, get america excited about it, and get to work. >> listen, did you tell that to the vice president for goodness sakes, jared? >> well, i'm going to keep working on that one. >> please, do. please, do. a pleasure to see both of you. i learn from both of you and appreciate it. thank you guys.
peter moricmorici, jared bernst a look at real solutions on jobs coming up. also ahead, wanted, dead or alive. you're going to like this. we got a bronze star recipient coming up who will take all of us inside some of america's most famous military manhnlts. in fact, he wrote a book about it. plus, playing god in "planet of the apes." talking to the director of what is sure to be this summer's net blockbuster. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ introducing purina one beyond a new food for your cat or dog.
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we sdoentd don't have sometime to wait when it comes to putting folks back 0 work. >> where are the jobs? >> what's the priority? we believe it is great jobs. >> america's number one priority, the creation of jobs. >> where are the jobs? >> the biggest concern the american people have is jobs. >> our big challenge right now is creating jobs. >> and where are the jobs? >> those very same people are the ones that give you extractionary banking policies, extractionary trade codes and peels when she ask, where are the jobs? as if i was reaching into your pockets stealing your money and asking where your food was. for years we've heard politicians talked talk, but when 2 comes to setting trade policy, setting banking policy, setting the tax code, when are they going to begin to walk the walk? our mega panel today is in effect ari, democratic
strategist, krystal ball, former congressional candidate and msnbc contributor and reuters editor at lafrg, christya freeland. for the while, the jobs talk will political value. it appears the lauhalf life is rapidly declining as people realize it is little more than talk. how much longer will the talk be tolerated and what about the response to its obvious hamm hollow or rhetoric nature be? >> this week, totally hollow. we had at the beginning of the week the debt ceiling deal, effectively washington tying its hands saying there will be no job creation. really, when you think about what kind of government, what can they do to actually create job, the government can create jobs. set up an infrastructure bank. the government could stop firing people. since may of 2009, half a million government workers have lost their jobs.
so the government right now is not part of the job solution. the government is part of the job problem. >> and the interesting thing is, you have a democratic base that seems to believe if only their ideas and regulations were in place the money would spend there way, there would be jobs and a republican party base in place that believes, or that if you simply annihilated the government's existence altogether there would be jobs, when it seems apparent that the pathway to jobs is to identify a problem to put people around the problem trying to solve it and then invest in that solution. >> right. what we've heard from democratic politicians and, to me, they have barely been talking about jobs. >> fair enough. >> and what they said has been absolutely hollow. you have democratic politicians saying, well, we could do x, y and z but it would never pass. they don't bonger to bring it up or argue for it and i'm tired of that. we need to figure out what
should we do? and then think about the politics how to get done. >> even before that, don't we need a shared north star? we are going to a -- for full em ploit. going to clean energy independence. >> yes. >> going to really high quality, cheaply available health care. i have no idea how to do any of think, but i'm going to work with all of these really beautiful, smart, highly motivated people together that are impassioned and purposeful and every day we'll work together to try to get closer to solutions that get us more jobs, cleaner energy and better health care and instead we have people that are using -- their ability to push their particular idea or their particular mechanical object is a manipulation to get power for me. my idea is better than ari's idea. now is i'm in charge and have the power. >> unlikely. >> that's like a fantasy. >> can i make a minor point
here? >> please. >> the president's talking about pirchting and commentators are saying, here we go with the pivot. that's misleading just in that one word, because you cannot pivot off as you say a plan and an approach over the next ten years that ties the government's hand. talking about government role in creation, we're talking about spending on public sector job, to your point, or spending at home to create the programs and demand for private -- or, last one. or three, doing some sort of relief, like the proposals circulating about saying, 20% tax break for new jobs even the veterans proposal is circulating has some of that. >> or not allowing china to distract capital. >> that's -- >> domestically. >> i'm talking domestically, too, though. you can make all the plans you want. if you're allowing, if there's a vacuum cleaner of money off your house there's not much you can
get done. the vacuum cleaner on the american house is the trade policy. to ignore that, not you were, to watch the government ignore that is frustrating. anyway, we don't want to flus tra truss trait. the audience has been through a lot this week. we can say different things, and i guess my question is we know we have an unemployment problem, we know we have a debt issue. i think like being overweight as opposed to having a broken leg. we do need to lose a few pounds. metaphor. we obviously may have a major middle eastern issue. this is massacre in syria. there's no evidence of any path towards resolution that is non-violent in that region, no evidence of a resolution that does not provide potential threats to energy. we also know that the financial markets are starting to churn up. how does all of that add together politically? we're kind of stuck in jobs and
debt, where we've been for a while, but it's clear we're going to be adding middle east chaos, oil volatility and financial market volatility if not financial crisis to that cocktail. >> yeah. i think you're right to focus on syria and i would add to that frankfurt and europe. >> why? >> economic shock can come from there. what we've seen this week and really since 2008 is the u.s. economy which used to be able to shrug off external events is now so weak it's on its back, and with maybe gently just barely starting to get up, but every time there's an external shock it is knocked right down. the political impact of that is 2010 is not very far away. i think has the president was counting on, to kind of do a little political jujitsu, persuading everybody he was the reasonable adult in the room, republicans are crazy and hope
he gets re-elected, but if any one of these external shocks, could just wipe the economy out and then he knows -- >> and honestly, it's a miracle the president's approval rating somewhere around a low 40%, it's a miracle it's that high given where we are right now. the only thing we heal hreally s bact pocket, the republican stable of candidates is so weak. >> exactly. like being inspired because you're not greece. >> exactly. we agree. >> there's a reason to party this weekend. >> and the other thing is -- >> nots the republicans. >> seems voters are still blaming bush for the bad economy and they've placed more blame on republicans in congress in particular for the just ridiculous debacle. >> at the end of the day -- yeah, at the end of the day, this is a beautiful, powerful, wealthy, resource-rich,
magnificent country of brilliant people. of passionate people. of purposeful people, who suddenly are being told that their best bet is that you're not going to be as bad as the tea party. not as bad add greece. >> right. >> this is a country that was the leader in the edge of thought, and government and prosperity, and we still have the resources, ari. that's the -- we aren't greece. right? we are stinking rich as a country. we are stinking rich, in terms of the not only the capital that we have, but the number of human beings and the human resources and human department has exists in this country and the own bear dwroer its manifestation is the end of a race to the bottom where the democrats listen, at least we're not the republicans. yeah. that's pretty good. thanks for that. i'm talking about taking advantage of the opportunities that are in front of us to solve problems on energy, on health care, et cetera, and i do not understand how this political system can deal with those
problemsed way it's set up. >> actually you asked about the politics. where some of the low expectations for this administration are striking. let me give you one data point. at this point in jimmy carter's presidency, his approval among democrats, not his detractors, among his party, was at 37%. okay? barack obama -- >> people were done with him. >> exactly. barack obama is at about 85%. >> democrats. >> with his people. you asked me what's he doing with the tea party? not as well. to your point, where you have that support you have to spend it. a lot more than a pivot. it needs to be a strong innovative policy. >> but they can't talk. they have to actually do something. they just said we're not going to spend any money on anything. >> as a pundit -- that's talk. >> nor are they addressing tax code, trade, nor are they addressing banking. really, they are of the belief if i paint you a picture of a hot dog that you in some way will feel less 4u7k hungry.
>> exactly. >> it doesn't work. i tried it. next, we do what politicians won't. answer the question, where are answer the question, where are the jobs?ive. to save some money, i found one that uses robots instead of real people. 'cuz robots work for free. robot 1:good morning... robot 1:...female child. sfx: modem dial-up noise woman: flaws? yeah, um, maybe. anncr: there's an easier way to save. anncr: get online. go to geico.com. get a quote. 15 minutes could save you 15% or more on car insurance.
as we come to grips with the fact that the only half of our country or slightly more than half is actually working. 58%. the actual number of people with jobs. it's important to remember there are so many ideas how to fix this. wonderful idea, huge ideas, little ideas apartment everything between and resources. so many resources. we're so wealthy, so much ability. but we lack at this point in time the shared goals and i think more importantly we lack the integrity of shared problem solving that allows us to make progress towards that shared goal, and maybe losing ground. examples of some of the good ideas out there, you've heard them, some have, some you haven't, creating a national infrastructure bank to fund investment and create jobs in america. an idea. getting rid of tax incentives
for american companies to invest overseas, instead drive that money into our own country. not a bad idea. enacting short-term taxes to counter of trade deficit specifically with china who taxes our imports to their companies at ten times what we tax theirs. certainly worth a debate. right? those just a few of the recommendations from our specialist today who served at ceo of such big named institutions at at&t broadband and the s network, currently managing partner at intermedia partners, a delight to welcome you back. you, of course, no krystal, ari and christya. we have the resources, many other have ideas wet we do not fear have the integrity, ability or resolve to pursue it and it frustrates pretty much everybody. >> you have to go back to the comment christya made in the last segmented. i mentioned it to ari as we were walking in. the spigot got shut off. we have been foreclosed from all of the solutions in the document i shared with you, dylan.
that's a tragedy. there are amazing women and men committed to fixing this country. their ideas are sound. we put several down on paper. 20 great people came together at the request of the congress, and it will virtually none will get enacted because as christya said, they've turned the spigot puff. a conscience decision to do it through cuts, no new revenues. we committed to what's called pay-go. we need resources to put the programs into place. three thing out of that lis to still get kun. the national infrastructure bank, the money lies around. no political will with the combination. >> why not? geithner said with the white house no bank but my bank. >> a power play. the treasury secretary wants to be the one who has the power over the financial system, and an infrastructure bank would threat than power? >> right.
because he is comfortable only with the traditional commercial banks. the president told him, as contrary, do the bank, but he's in the agreeable to what's calmed bidomestic. do the bank, fix china as poor n the earlr think it's re resonate, take the anger the tea party pug together towards deficit and takes the unemploy the americans and get them so ticked off they do something dramatic, and i don't care who it is right now. >> the concern is, what we're talking about is harnessing fire, right? the question is, how do you harness fire in a way that doesn't come out the way that it did with the tea party, destructively. instead harness fire in a way that comes out constructively to breed prosperity? >> i'm so happy to hear you're
saying this. to me, i speak as a foreigner. i'm canadian. one of the real mysteries of american politics right now is where is the possibility of movement on the left? >> prosperity. >> look at the economy right now. the middle class is being hammered, and we said -- >> i don't think it's on the left. i don't think it's on the left. >> right now it can only be the extreme right that's done a good job of harnessing that rage about the system. >> that point's correct. >> why is the left just focusing on the -- >> as the five of us i'm by far the oldest and lives tlooud through the rage of the '60s and early 57 '70s. rage mixed with equal optimism. right now there's neither. no optimism. no rage, just malaise and un-we. we've got to figure it out. i don't care what candidate comes out of ahead. if they can drag along the middle class that you speak about. but let's go back to one quick point pup said do we have the resources? we do in the aggregate, by far.
unfortunately, half of the nation's income resides in the top 3%. so the disappointment i have over the president's unwillingness to go to revenues, which he just perpetuated the income and quality that you and i talked about so often. >> i wanted to ask you something specifically about that. another troubling aspect of what little job creation we've seen is that it's very heavily planted towards low-wage job, only getting lower waged. high-wage jobs we've actually continued to see a loss of, even while the wages get higher. so we're seeing an increased widening, a complete loss of the middle. what sort of policy prescriptions would you have to try to combat that and how this really focusing on income and equality? >> the last time i was with dylan, one of the saddest comments i could make, krystal. at the end of my career i pay a lesser rate of tax personally than at the beginning. i pay a lesser rate of tax than any of the four of you, because of manipulation of the system.
and in 1980 when we adopted trickle down, it breaks me heart to realize that it wasn't just a reagan ploy. it was a later bush, clinton and seemingly obama. when president obama promised us in iowa the income inequality and re-employment of the middle class were his top priorities, to find this late into the process we're not doing either, is heartbreaking. >> yep. >> so it's not just -- it's not the left. i am by nature a progressive democrat. but my concern is 90% of american workers today have not had a real wage increase for pushing 20 years. that's independents, that's republicans, that's democrats alike. where is the anger that was so dominant in my generation around women's rights, around rights of people of color? of the environment. you pick it. we were all very upset, and we got, we had a lot of optimism. >> let me ask you -- what do you do about the 4 million
discouraged workers, as you put it. a statement out today, you go through the people not counted. 4 million discouraged basically dropping out of even looking in the labor market and two to your other point what do you say what's going on in wisconsin and other place where is labor is pushing back and trying to have a check? some sort of aggresse activity. wrap about those issues? >> the problem, you and i know so well, for every official unemployed woman or man -- employed, there's an unemployed. embedded in the discouraged worker 1 a disproportionate number of women and men over 50. they are not going to be re-employed in a modestly rejuvenating economy naturally. so ari, the only thing that's going to help them back is government assistance, and the one thing we know works, it is timeless. it worked in canada. it works everywhere, is in infrastructure, it's a got a buy
domestic component. my president said, not on my watch. it's craziness. and so if we have to focus on that elder and the younger, there's 5 million women and men who are 18 to 26. half of whom have a b.a. or b.s., can't find their first job. half with a diploma. no first job. those are targets of opportunity. >> what if we took all the yng people and matched them with all the old people and put them together working on projects helping each other do stuff? >> you'd be 41 1/2 years old, and might get re-employed. >> get a job then. right. you know what i'm talking about! we're solving problems here. all right. thank you all. thank you so much. and, again, i maintain tremendous optimism for the simple reason that the ability to solve problems is something that exists, i know, in the people of this country, even if it's not manifesting in the government of this country right now and maybe not painful enough yet, unfortunately, it will become painful enough at some
point in time and hopefully we'll respond at that point in time. three ways to bring prosperity back to our country. trade, tax and bank reform and how those policies right now extract money from our nation. check it out along with anything else that you see here on the show. of course, we want to hear from you on the twitter at dylan ratigan and on facebook. coming up, why is nasa's mission to jupiter being manned by legos? just one phillips' colon health probiotic cap a day
the juno launch marks the phase of a new stage in space exploration continuing our tour of the solar system. this is not manned, unless you counts the three lego figures onboard. one is played to resemble jupiter, the roman god that inspired the name of the planet. the other is jupiter's sister and wife, i might add, times were different back then, and finally, a mini galileo, the famous atrostrologer. not spoked to make it to jupiter until 2016. folks at nasa are betting it will be worth the wait. next -- >> you have no idea what you're dealing with. >> the prequel that shows how we were overtaken by apes.
we talk to the director of weren't ever the summer's hottest flicks after this. to power our lives. while energy developement comes with some risk, north america's natural gas producers are committed to safely and responsibly providing decades of cleaner burning energy for our country, drilling thousands of feet below fresh water sources within self contained well systems and using state of the art monitoring technologies, rigorous practices help ensure our operations are safe and clean for our communities and the environment we are america's natural gas.
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real. >> we first started making the film we wanted to, said it here and now, make it as realistic as possible. we had two choices, really. couldn't use actors in prosthetics suits. really, the great apes we know and love today don't look like us. they don't work like us, anatomically. so we will the choice. use likates or use performance captured technology and we didn't want to use live apes for all sorts of reasons. thankfully we didn't have to, because of the technology, which basically is -- an actor actually being able to perform a role, but then on top of him, we can sort of digitally create what you would call a digital makeup, prosthetic and that transforms them into these apes. >> was that same technology you were able to then present, the film through the first-person perspective of one of the apes? >> absolutely. a real challenge when you're
talking about making a film that has as its protagonist an animal, actually an animal very different than us and not asking the audience to really believe in that animal. not talking robots or creatures fantastic in any way. these are real living, breathing creatures that we know very well. so we were asking the audience to believe in these computer generated creatures. what works and what has been so successful that we've seen as we've made his film is that they have 0 a soul. that's the first time you've seen that in cinema in many ways. like a real creature that is really reality-based. look into his eyes you believe it's there. >> witness you got over the incredible high hurdle of the mechanical aspects of poor trarg the film in the way you describes your aspirations, clearly you've achieved, the story you're telling really sounds like a moral narrative in science run amuck, in power, in
abuse of power. what do you define as the core message that you're carrying right now? >> well, i guess i'm not a big fan of film or any kind of form of storytelling, you have to be careful what you wish for, don't open that book. i think you know, one of the beauties of our civilization and species is that we have that opportunity and that ability to progress and evolve and that comes through discovering. it comes through science and it comes through medicine, and it's what makes us great in many ways. so i wasn't looking to sort of moralize, to sort of tell that black and white story about all science is evil, and i think we're all safe in saying to find a cure for a disease such as alzheimer's would be a truly wonderful thing. that's what's so great about the drama of a story like that is, you know, then the, i guess the decisions -- like all great -- all moments in history it all lies with the individual.
it's up to the leader. it's up to the decision-maker to make the right decision, and that doesn't always happen. >> you know, more and more we're getting to that stage as a species that we are so heightened in our awareness of things, that actually the stakes are getting higher and higher. the decisions that we make are so crucial now both for our planet, or ourselves, for our future, that those who are making the decisions, i think, you know, it comes down to those people really making decisions that they must be aware that they have really greater consequences for all of us. >> and those decisions are bager than ideas or mechanics that go to a fundamental value system? >> yeah. it's doctor frankenstein. that's the thing. ironically, we've created life through technology but we're also talking about what do we do once we've done that? what happens then? how do we use it? >> on a cultural note, just to change the subject for a moment,
what do you think charleston heston will think of your movie, would think of your movie? >> i think -- i mean, that's such a question to answer. i guess -- i think for me when i set out to make this film i wanted to tell a great story. a really exciting story. a summer blockbuster. but i also wanted to challenge the audience. you know? all of us did. all of us making this political wanted to ask certain questions that not only enter tarranted but leaves you with something when you leave the cinema. i guess the kind of the thing i would like everyone to take away from watching the film is that sense of empathy nap sense of believing in each other and believing in species that are not us, but also at the same time hold a mirror up to us. that's what's so great about the "planet of the apes" mythology. that's exactly what it does. i'm sure charlton heston signed up to tell the first story. >> for those who could watch the film and perhaps be concerned you're portraying some sort of
sci-fi documentary, future documentary, i understand there's a group of british scientists forming an activist group to prevent certain types of primate testing for fear of a "planet of the apes scenario"? >> yeah. i read about that not too long ago, i mean, fortunately, thankfully, the great apes aren't used in this any more. purely because it's too expensive. a sad indictment of us, i guess, but there are many monkeys and 1i78 simians part of laboratory testing and they've discovered a parody through the use of this. they discovered there is that ability, i think a number of lab rats that have massively increased intelligence and far more intelligent and advanced in than their wild counterparts. i think that's intriguing and also quite worrying, i think. >> which suggests at the very least, plausible fantasy that versions of this adaptation are
far conceivable? >> absolutely. which is what we set out, the story we set out to tell. it's a real base, reality based as we could possibly make it. it is very much based in hard scientific facts. >> that, ruper wyatt and his film 'the rise of the planet apes" debuts today in theaters everywhere. coming up on "hardball," the market's obviously a press. missing jobs and a presidency now on the line. chris matthews has the political stakes for the economic meltdown. first a real-life manhunt. what it takes to catch the world's most wanted outlaws. as a manager, my team counts on me to stay focused.
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or next guest, a former paratrooper and president's speech writer. how's that for a resume? his latest book, on america's military manhunt, outlaws, bandits, think billy the kid, but in a more 21st or 20th century sense. again, joining us now, the author of "wanted dead or alive c manhunts from geronimo to bin laden" a kpeting read. everybody loves the manhunt as a story, and everybody loves to sort of either demonize or turn the bandit into a hero. what is the message that you're carrying in this book? >> well, first of all, the book is history of strategic manhu s manhunts, anytime u.s. forces are deployed to kill or capture an individual, as 125 years before the navy s.e.a.l.s raid that killed osama bin laden
almost to the day may 3, 1886 the u.s. congress pass add resolution offering as 25ds,000 rewa reward, a big reward, for the killing and captures of geronimo. it's a retelling of these almost tom clancy-esque military campaigns. real life military campaigns with lessons learned for future policymakers and military commanders. >> and give me a couple lessons? >> one that surprised me given the convention's wisdom after osama bin laden escape from tora bora in 2001, troop strength isn't a variable. almost in no other case we send a quarter of the items army after jer ron roh in 1885 and '86 and only a party of five men ended up being able to track him down and induce him to surren r surrender. we sent double into muss cexico after almost xaxly the same terrain and wasn't able too get them. it wasn't troop strength that was a factor between success and
failure in those cases. >> what is it? we spend a lot of money, spend -- we love to spend resources on things. not just in the military, on anything. we don't get much for it. sounds like you might be on to something. >> what really matters in the first strategic manhunt, a separate campaign than -- >> i'm looking for a particular individual. >> the key variable is what i call human terrain. the attitude the local pop lucien towards the person who we're targeting. that determines whether or not we'll be able to get human intelligence from the local population, determines whether or not we'll be able to have reliable indigenous forces helping us and determines whether or not you'll be able to, the target, all men, whether or not they were escape border we can't go across. >> basically, if the locals like him, he's got a good chance of hanging out. if they don't, he's got problems? >> very much so and a very frustrating thing sow tell u.s. policymakers and commanders.
it means we don't control -- >> the common terrain? >> we don't control everything that matters for success and failure in some of these praises and it's very hard for academic, opposition policymakers to accept that reality. >> you say that it's a manhunt. have we ever had a womanhunt? >> no. not yet. >> is that a reflection of men, women or of the government? >> i wouldn't get -- >> beyond both of our pay grades. >> yes. >> and there is something in this, though, which is that -- the manhunt is about the -- you can see the cover of your book. bin laden, geronimo, saddam. it is the bandit, if you will, in the movie that frequently becomes the cult hero? >> a lot of these men have very much been romanticizes in their afterlife. for geronimo, it started quickly. he was very much considered -- i don't want to call him a terrorist. i don't want to get into trouble.
when he says scaped -- led an escape from the reservation in 1885, mass hysteria they were so afraid of him. as soon as they were put into exile. the apaches were horribly treated he started to become a folk hero right away. as whistle stops, he would block letter his autograph and sell it. started appearing at wild west shows, to the point where theodor roosevelt was elected president in hi inaugural parade he specifically requested that geronimo march in his, ride a horse and be a part of hits inaugural parade. this led to romanticization of hollywood and this happened in a lot of cases. poncho via has a romantic air and others, u.s. special forces trained bolivian rangers that killed him. few of the men we've gone after
tend to grecognized as unadulterated bad guys. >> that, at the end of a day, the natural aspect of human psychology, the appeal of those who reject the man and -- >> probably that there's a certain appeal to the outlaw in our popular culture. >> does it appeal to you? is that why you rote, intriguing -- >> no. for me, it's is a shame, incredible american military hero, lieutenant charles gatewood, the one who induced geronimo, nobody knows about. a man captured 100 miles behind enemy lines. to get bin laden, flew 130 miles from afghanistan, led 90 men behind enemies lines. only had enough food for three days and accidentally took too much soon, squandered it and went the last three, four days without food. these men are completely lost in military history, though, unfortunately. >> not anymore they're not. you mak