tv Lockup World Tour MSNBC October 15, 2011 9:00pm-10:00pm PDT
>> announcer: due to mature subject matter, viewer discretion is advised. tonight, on "lockup: world tour." >> i'll [ bleep ] murder you. >> we go behind prison walls in scotland, the knife murder capital of europe. >> i slashed people, i stabbed people, i scalded people. >> we meet a killer with a sadistic streak. >> what do you do with pliers? >> oh, different things. >> and the interview takes a startling turn. >> he wants us to stop. >> violence erupts inside a maximum security prison in
belgium. >> he's a crazy man. he's a murderer. you know? but i'm not scared. you know? what the [ bleep ]? you threaten me? >> but in this prison when tensions rise inmates can cool off in the sex room. >> two hours for sex. ♪ >> to americans it's a country best known for chocolate, waffles, and beer. belgium. roughly the size of maryland. it's considered to be one of the safest nations in europe.
but criminals do exist here. and the most hardcore can be found 50 miles east of brussels in the town of hasalt. prison hasselt was built in 1975. it houses men and in a separate unit women. >> other prisons in this country they are old prisons, they are more than 150 years old, and they have a culture. a bad or a good culture. but they always have a culture. we started from zero. >> as the nation's newest high-security prison, hasselt employs a wide array of technology to manage inmates. but many of the other security policies are nothing at all like we've ever seen in the u.s. from 9:00 at night until 6:30 in the morning correctional officers are not allowed to go inside cells without special permission from the prison director. >> at 9:00 the prisoners are locked in their cells. the big chief comes to collect the keys.
you can't go in a cell. >> you cannot? >> yes. >> why? >> that's the rules here. >> what do you think goes on behind these doors? >> i don't know. and i don't want to know what goes on. but when you go around, make your checks, you can sometimes smell the weed. the only thing you can do is the day after get a complete checkup of the cell. but most of the time you don't find anything. >> but that's not the only unusual security policy. while american correctional officers who have close contact with inmates don't carry guns, hasselt officers carry even less. >> none of the staff has any weapons? there are no pepper spray, no batons? >> the only equipment we carry are our keys and a cell phone. that's about it. but if necessary we can get plastic shields, batons. the restraints, the chains, protective armaments. i don't even think i ever wore a
helmet. >> male inmates considered to be the greatest threat are segregated in their own unit. section 20. >> when they are psychotic, when they use a lot of drugs, when they are aggressive, when they're risk for escaping, then they come at section 20. >> borak ursin is a section 20 inmate awaiting trial for attempted murder of a wheelchair-bound man. >> they say that i put a man through a window. like this, like you see. but this is -- >> in a wheelchair? >> in a wheelchair, yes. >> unlike most high-security units in american prisons, where inmates are locked in cells 23 hours a day, borak and other section 20 inmates are given access to common areas. but less than 24 hours after our arrival a fight breaks out between two inmates.
surveillance footage would later reveal that borak ursin, shown speaking on a pay phone, was one of the participants. he is suddenly approached by another inmate, who has just picked up supplies and food from the prison canteen. and just seconds later they take each other to the ground. correctional officers swarm the two men and take borak into custody while the other inmate picks up his supplies and leaves the scene. borak will be confined to this stripped-down isolation cell until he attends a disciplinary hearing for the fight. >> we went to interview borak in his isolation cell a few minutes after this fight. he was very upset. he felt he was being treated as the perpetrator when in fact he was actually the victim. >> i was taulg with my mother. i said mom, everything okay?
ta, ta, tt. he said to me i want to talk to you. i said what do you want? he say what do you want? i will kick you, beat you. >> barok's opponent is a violent repeat offender who is currently awaiting trial for manslaughter. he says barok started the fight. >> he jumped you and what happened? >> jump -- it was over -- it was not a real fight. >> unlike barok, eric was sent back to his regular cell and not placed under any new restrictions. borak claims eric receives special treatment from the prison. >> eric is in fact a former
paratrooper. but borak says he got the better of him in the fight. >> first he got me, but i turned him around, you know, and i got him good, you know. but the sheriffs, they all catched me and they pulled me off of. you know? they don't touch him with one finger. him. why? you fight with two, huh? you don't fight alone. you know what i mean? >> do you have a lot of influence? >> yeah. >> next on "lockup: world tour." >> two hours for sex. >> inside hasselt prison sex room. and borak ursin's disciplinary hearing goes from bad to worse. [ male announcer ] cranberry juice? wake up!
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the security system at prison hasselt in belgium is as technologically advanced as any of the american prisons we've ever profiled on "lockup." >> everywhere are cameras and monitors. from a very secure place where no prisoners may go we watch everything. that's our security. for the moment we have no escapes in this prison. but the inmates, probably they think a lot about escaping. but the security is very high. >> preventing escape is a high priority at hasselt. that's why peter denilizak was transferred here two weeks ago. he was sentenced to five years for the armed robbery of three jewelry couriers and then boldly tried to cut that sentence short. >> i notice when you walk you have a limp. why? >> it was an accident when i escaped.
there was a construction going on in the prison. it was a -- they had this ladder. and we run and jump over the fence. so i actually made it out. i run. and they catch me. five, six kilometers in a little village called warneton. and from there they move me to this prison. >> he says his escape was motivated by the pressures of being the parent of four young children. >> before they were going in the soccer team. now they cannot go because of there is no one to take them there and there are some complications with little children, you know? >> in the united states an escape attempt usually leads to more time in prison. but it's a very different story in belgium. >> it's the law that says the fact of escaping is not a crime, but they can do another crime. for example, if they escape with the prison clothes, keeping those prison clothes is a crime.
unless they send the clothes back. and in the past we have someone who escaped jumping out of the window. after two, three days, we get the clothes back, washed and cleaned. so he didn't make any crime. >> in accordance with belgian law, since peter committed no crimes during his escape, he received no extra prison time once he was captured. >> nice surprise. happy surprise. i don't like surprises, but it's a nice surprise. >> peter's only punishment was a two-month stay in hasselt's high security unit, section 20. but it's all worked out for the best. he likes it here. >> it's a five-star hotel compared to the other ones. food, here they give same way that they give in any belgian restaurant. any belgian traditional restaurant, what they give, they give also here. same taste, same everything.
>> yeah, i guess when you escape they put you in a better place. >> don't try to run again? >> while peter might take comfort in a good maeshleal, ph vervaki finds it in the daily mail call. >> it's a letter from my girlfriend. it's nice to have all day, every day a letter. you know? these are from june 2008 till now. you know. this one is the last one. you know? 671. and this is from the day before. 670. we never have a day we didn't write. never. never. >> but when phillip mails his letters, they never travel outside the prison's walls. his girlfriend, connie ohunelt is also serving time at hasselt. >> my love is big for my partner. 14 years together.
>> while the hundreds of letters to each other symbolize their love, ironically, it was a bonnie and clyde-like robbery spree of belgian post offices that brought them here. >> we are so close that we going together in hell, you know. we give our life for each other. >> since belgian post offices also offer banking services, they were the couple's prime target. >> i told her many times, i say connie, you know, we have to be careful, it's bad luck to be caught. you know? and she say yeah, we have to stop. and then i say yes. and after i say no, we need the money. >> on their ninth robbery they were not only caught, phillip accidentally shot himself in the leg trying to escape. but the pain was more than just physical. >> i failed to my promise to her, you know? to give her a better life.
>> fortunately, for connie and phillip, they're inkars raicarcn a nation that understands the power of love. the couple is at loud to see each other for an hour three times a week. but once a month they're allowed a special visit. >> two hours for sex. that is different. nobody look. that's fine. >> in belgium they just cut to the chase. they call this room the sex room. and it was a very surprisingly lovely-looking room. very large bathroom, very nice lighting in the bedroom. large size bed. big size bed. very neatly folded towels on the bed. and a little shocking. packets of condoms on the towel. >> the prisoners have to write to have private visit. but it's not only a sexual visit. a prisoner can ask his father or his mother or his sister.
but mostly it is used as a sex room. >> so what's going on now, phillip? what are you preparing for? >> to visit my wife. you know? it's very nice. >> and the banana? >> to get power. >> are you happy? >> happy, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> the things human need, you know? and if you love someone, you need your sex with her. you need to be alone for two hours. you know? >> coming up -- >> why would i want to fight with a paracommander? ex-paracommander? they are scared. believe me.
i know this. >> borak ersen seeks justice. >> and later -- >> no. >> basically, you threw somebody off the bridge and you choked somebody to death. >> yeah. >> a shocking interview with one of scotland's most notorious killers takes a startling turn. for convertibles, press star one. i didn't catch that. to speak to a representative, please say representative now. representative. goodbye! you don't like automated customer service, and neither do we. that's why, unlike other cards, no matter when you call chase sapphire preferred, you immediately get a person not a prompt. chase sapphire preferred. a card of a different color. (phone ringing) chase sapphire preferred, this is julie in springfield. yeah, maybe not. v8 v-fusion juice gives them a full serving of vegetables plus a full serving of fruit. but it just tastes like fruit. v8. what's your number?
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inside belgium's prison hasselt inmate borak ersen has just spent his second night in an isolation cell. he's there for getting into a fight with another inmate. >> i'm the black sheep. always. if there's anything, it's always me. >> this morning he will meet the prison's disciplinary committee to find out if there will be any further punishment. the inmate borak fought, eric franzens, will also go before the disciplinary committee. but he seems no more concerned now than he was when he casually walked away from the fight as officers swarmed borak. >> what do you think's going to happen? >> i don't know. >> are you worried? >> huh? >> are you worried? >> no. >> no?
>> prison officials claim that eric franzens is a well-behaved inmate and that it's only his violent reputation outside of prison that requires them to house him in section 40. >> with the police he has a very heavy reputation, that he's a very heavy guy in the criminal environment. it is a reputation that follows him. and he has a lot of crimes. and it's often with guns. >> i'm 39 years old. i was before ten years in jail for armed robberies. and then i got free and i come back for two years for a fight. and now i'm in jail. they think that i killed somebody. >> under what circumstances did this person die? >> bullet in his head.
>> you fought -- >> yeah. and the chief, they scared of him and they put me. why would i want to fight with a paracommando? ex-paracommando. why? they are scared. really, believe me. i know this. i'm here. he's not here. you know? he's in his cell. yeah. he's watching tv now. "sex and the city" maybe. you know? yeah. >> the two inmates will have separate hearings. and eric's is held first. after the charges are read, officials ask to hear his side of the story. and he responds in his native dutch.
erik. >> a short time later borak is escorted to the hearing room. and his outlook is less than hopeful. >> how's it going? >> they want to [ bleep ] me. always like this. >> when erik gave his account of the incident, he was very calm and very respectful in the disciplinary board. when borak came in to give his account, it was a very different story. he claimed erik was blackmailing him and became very aggressive with the director.
personality. and he became more and more aggressive the last few months, last few years. >> what happens now, burak? >> i don't know. they will give me penalty, i think. a good one. but i don't give a [ bleep ]. [ bleep ] them. they think they're going to break me. [ bleep ]. >> a short time later the disciplinary committee reaches a decision. there will be no sanctions for erik franzens, but burak ersen will receive two additional days in isolation for being argumentative in the hearing and another month in section 20 for the fight. we caught up with burak three days later, after he was moved out of isolation and back into his section 20 cell. he was in a much better mood. >> here. that's chocolate. you know, you want? this is good.
america, you don't have everything. eat. next on "lockup world tour" -- >> what do you do with pliers? >> all different ts. >> one of th most infamous murderers in scotland. and an old-timer stirs up trouble. >> i tried to explain to you, lock me up if you want. you lock me up, i'll burn my peter. >> burn your peter? >> aye. the people. because: bad weather, the price of oil those are every airline's reality. and solutions will not come from 500 tons of metal and a paintjob. they'll come from people. delta people. who made us the biggest airline in the world. and then decided that wasn't enough.
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let's get you back to "lockup." >> announcer: due to mature subject matter, viewer discretion is advised." directly between glasgow and edinburgh scotland is shotts, the sort of rural farming village that dots the island's central interior. but just beyond its green fields and grazing sheep is a much more foreboding presence. this is hmp, her majesty's prison, shotts. a maximum security facility that houses more than 500 of scotland's most violent criminals. >> all the prisoners in shotts will be serving four years or over. that in scotland will mean they committed a serious crime. 52% of the prisoners at the moment here are serving a life sentence.
most life sentences are given for murder. so we have a lot of murderers here. >> many of the men convicted of murder here are young, still in their 20s, and claim drugs and alcohol led them to kill. drugs played a role in the incarceration of 29-year-old chris hutchison. but he was on the supply side, and his crimes made headlines. >> so you were a drug dealer? >> a wee time drug dealer, aye. did a wee bit. yeah. >> but hutchison was a drug dealer with a sadistic streak. he's serving a 25-year to life sentence for two murders, attempted murder, kidnapping, and torture. >> how did those people die? >> one fell off a bridge. another one died. >> one fell off a bridge? wouldn't that be an accident, not murder? >> aye. >> what happened? >> fell off a bridge. >> were you there when he fell off the bridge? >> aye. >> how'd the other one die?
>> the other one just died, didn't he? he choked. >> on his food? >> no. >> so basically, you threw somebody off a bridge and you choked somebody to death? >> aye. >> chris was very flippant when describing his crimes. he seemed to take them very casually. and he had this odd habit when there was a break in the interview of kind of half singing a song. >> bop, bop, bop. >> and belching. >> [ belch ]. >> shah, la, la, la. >> [ belch ]. >> but as we probed deeper into his crimes, we soon learned that hutchison's murder victims were not the only ones who suffered. those who did not pay up on their drug debts often met especially sadistic consequences. >> how long had you held somebody hostage? >> i kept them for 24 hours
before. >> torturing them? >> on and off. >> what kind of tortures? >> just all sorts of tortures. nailing people's hands. nailing people to doors. hammers, nails, pliers. >> what do you do with pliers? >> all different things. all different things. >> one of the men hutchison murdered was his cousin. >> how did your cousin die? how was he murdered? >> choked him. >> with your hands? >> with a rope. tha ta, ta, ta. >> did he know he was going to die? >> mm-hmm. gave him a choice. his hand or his life. >> and what did he choose?
>> he didn't choose nothing. i chose. >> it must have been pretty bad what he did. >> he wants us to stop. >> the interview is suddenly stopped by a shotts correctional officer providing security. >> it was one of the strangest experiences i've ever had filming in a prison, to have an officer interrupt an interview, take the inmate away, and then confer with him. i later found out in scotland the inmates actually have a very good chance of making parole and this officer was concerned that if chris became too descriptive in his crimes it wouldn't bode well for him. >> when the interview resumes, hutchison discusses why he killed his cousin. >> my cousin and his dad got my brother on drugs. my brother died in my arms. so it affected us, didn't it? it's my big brother. i loved him. so it's obviously going to
affect me. >> it was the two that got him on drugs, wasn't did in. >> so that's what created this -- very hard person i see now? >> i would say, aye. i know it was, aye. obviously my brother died, that hurt me, yes. it doesn't matter who anybody is, that was my brother. i loved my brother. still love him to this day. >> 16 years old obviously. >> at the time of the murder it was widely reported he had dismembered the body and even gouged the eyes out. >> and how did they say you took someone's eyes out? >> can't remember how i done it. they they say i just took them out with a spoon orring something. so they say. >> and no regrets no, remorse? >> just something that happened. >> so what were you, an enforcer or just kind of a tough drug dealer? >> just a small time drug dealer. just didn't take [ bleep ]. >> they want to fight with me,
they'll fight with my rules. knife. >> knives. the common link of most of scotland's inmate population. >> live by the knife, die by the knife. there's only one bottle left ! i've got to tell susie ! the vending machine on elm is almost empty. i'm on it, boss. new pony ? sorry ! we are open for business. let's reroute greg to fresno. growing businesses use machine-to-machine technology from verizon wireless. susie !
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are your lashes thinning as you get older? why wait? ask your doctor about latisse® from allergan, a company with 60 years of eye care expertise. of the 500 inmates at her majesty's prison shotts in scotland, more than half have been convicted of murder. according to a united nations study, scots are three times more likely to be the victim of violent assault than americans. and in a culture where handguns are illegal, more than half of all murders are committed with knives. in fact, some call scotland the knife murder capital of europe. >> looks like a pretty bad slash mark.
>> oh, there's people's got worse than that one. people got one all the way down here. >> part of the lifestyle? >> uh-huh. >> mikesale one of the ones who have been on the wrong side of the blade. he has just arrived at shotts to begin a six-year sentence for assault and robbery. >> okay. tell me. what happened to your face? >> it was a fight that broke out. one guy got bottled in the face. one guy got stabbed and one guy got slashed. and the guy that got slashed was me. live by the knife die by the knife. >> we quickly learned shotts is full of young men whose lives have been put on hold because of knife violence. and for many of them like 22-year-old adam gallagher the knife violence was fueled by a combination of alcohol and drugs. >> i stabbed people, slashed people, scalded people, and it was all a way for me it survive.
>> gallagher came to prison four years ago on a murder charge. he claims he didn't know his girlfriend stole a drunken man's wallet. when the man pursued them, gallagher struck. >> gallagher received a life sentence but is eligible for parole after 15 years in prison. he works here as a barber. >> my mom and dad, well, middle-class, suburban people. they didn't bother anybody. so for me to come into the jail for murder, it was heartbreak for them. >> shock. >> shock, heartbreak. that's why i barely talk to them anymore. know what i mean? >> how much time do you think you're going to be in prison before you really have a shot at parole?
>> truthfully, i don't believe i'll ever get out. and that's just my perception of it. know what i mean? >> so how does a 22-year-old face the fact when he wakes up every morning that he's spending the rest of his life -- >> drugs. turn to drugs. i've been in this hole three weeks and there's not been a day that went by that i've not had drugs. >> what type of drugs? >> heroin. >> how are you taking -- >> smoke it. i seen you looking at my arms, yeah. people don't go for needles over here. absolutely hate them. >> so are you high right now? >> no, no, no, no, no. not yet. >> when does that happen? >> when this is finished. >> drugs have impacted steven galloway's life as well. he's spent most of his adulthood behind bars. but he's maintained a sense of humor about it all. >> what's got 100 legs and three teeth?
a meth queue. >> as soon as we met steven we found he had a very acerbic wit. even when the joke is pointed out you you have to laugh. >> he said did a supermodel just come down? obviously, he's got it wrong. i'm only messing with you. don't take it personal. know what i'm saying? >> but beneath galloway's humor is a desperate past. >> usain bolt. all right, one minute. >> he's currently serving just under four years for assault and robbery. >> i was a drug user. i just wanted cash. so i just went to the post office, bank. and that's how i used to do it. >> how? >> i used to rob it. >> galloway only has 15 months left in his current sentence and says he wants to clean up his life and stay out. but with his past record another conviction could send him away for good.
>> so i know i've only got one chance left and if you can be clean in a place like this you can be clean outside. you know? i'm 42 now. i've been in all my life. and all of a sudden i'm 42. 42. sow i want to try and, you know, get out and stay out. >> but an adulthood in prison doesn't always prepare one for life on the outside. >> for me to go out there and get a flat on my own, i'd just be lost. i can't cook. i can't do nothing. you know? you can't learn life skills down here know what i mean? because everything's done for you in this place. you've got no bills, or you know. nothing. >> how do you manage yourself here? >> have you seen my cell? i'm on my dinner break. >> but galloway knows how to survive life in prison. start by making friends with the corrections staff.
>> cheers. >> he was offering candy to us. to the officers. to the other inmates. steven actually even asked one of the officers to take his canteen to the new inmate, michael maher, but he made no attempt to hide his real motive for being such a nice guy. >> why? >> why i'm i giving him? because he's got none. hasn't got any money, hasn't got a canteen. so i thought, you know, future. he's got loads of stuff. and he owns his pub and got his own stuff. hey, remember the time in the seg? it's all about you know what i mean? thinkinging ahead, susan. you know while saying? >> when maher returns to his cell he finds the gift left for him. from the scouse, the term for someone from liverpool.
>> next on "lockup world tour" -- >> i'm trying to explain to you. lock me up if you want. if you lock me up, i'll burn my peter. >> burn your peter? >> aye. >> after a rowdy night one of shottss old-timers might have to pay the price. >> and how do you plead? >> guilty. because: bad weather, the price of oil those are every airline's reality. and solutions will not come from 500 tons of metal and a paintjob. they'll come from people. delta people. who made us the biggest airline in the world. and then decided that wasn't enough. yeah, maybe not. v8 v-fusion juice gives them a full serving of vegetables
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for violent acts, fueled by a lethal combination of alcohol, drugs, and knives. but they're not all youngsters. >> hey, i was drunk. the man that i murdered insulted my pal. so i stabbed him. and he died. >> 60-year-old jimmy reed is about halfway through an 11-year sentence for culpable homicide. the equivalent of manslaughter in the u.s. >> it was a man i knew well. like a friend. i didn't mean to kill him. that was proved in the court. i wasn't convicted of murder. i meant to stab him. but i didn't mean to kill him. but he died. >> while this was the first time he'd killed a man, jimmy's drinking has resulted in numerous prior convictions. he spent most of his adult life
in scottish prisons. and his sister, who lives in the u.s., says he should be thankful for that. >> she said if i was in america the cops would have killed me years ago. because of my carrying on when i'm drunk. she said american police will zap you and [ bleep ] shoot you. >> jimmy was also carrying on the night before we met him. he had received several disciplinary reports for causing a disturbance. it started when he couldn't account for all of his prescription medication, which is a prison requirement to prevent drug dealing. >> i was two pills short. two. i was supposed to have 42. i had 40. >> where did the other two go? >> i took them. they're mine. i got them off a doctor. but they put me on report for that. >> okay. what else? >> because i should have had 42. i had 40.
so i went crazy. >> what did you do? >> what did i do? everything. >> jimmy started off by continually ringing the emergency call button in his cell. >> just keep ringing the [ bleep ] bell. >> this one over here? >> aye. rung the bell for hours. not getting much joy. so i [ bleep ] lit it. i set the alarm off. >> by setting off his fire alarm jimmy prompted the local fire department to visit the prison. we joined him the next day, when he had to face the prison's deputy governor to answer for the five write-ups. the first concern was the missing pills. >> now, the charge for this first one is where you did not produce the correct amount of medication when required to do so. so do you want any materials takephonar this one? >> nop. >> and did you receive written notice of the discharge? >> i did. >> do you understand the purpose of the hearing? >> i do. >> and are you ready to go
ahead? >> i am. >> nurse o'neill checked the medication and found he was three tablets short. i placed him on report. is that correct? >> well, i would say two. >> you would say two. >> aye. >> okay. but the nurse is saying three. based on what she's said. how do you plead this morning? are you pleading guilty or not guilty? >> guilty. >> you're guilty. okay. the second report, then, mr. reid, for this report do you want any materials for taking notes? >> no. >> you swore at an officer and threatened to set fire to your cell. is that charge correct? >> aye. >> it is. and how do you plead? >> guilty. >> guilty or not guilty? >> guilty. >> okay. when being served with a report, james reid became abusive to me. this is officer stuart milton, telling me to get the [ bleep ] off. he then threatened to set fire to his cell. i placed him on report. >> i tried to explain to him, log me off if you want. if you lock me in i'll burn my peter. >> burn your peter? >> yeah. >> that's the reason why you've been put on report?
>> aye. >> okay. your third report, you've been charged with disobeying a lawful order, and this was continually placing your buzzer through the patrol period. when they responded to the buzzer and asked what was wrong he was met way response of [ bleep ] off. how do you plead? >> guilty. >> guilty. i'll find you guilty on that one. two more to go. right. okay. the fourth charge, then, is disobeying again, a rule where you've been continually pressing your cell button again for no reason. >> guilty. >> guilty. the last report of the evening was where you've intentionally endangered the health and personal safety of others. and this is where you activated the smoke detector in your cell, thereby causing the fire alarm to activate requiring the prison staff and the fire service to attend. do you understand that this charge? >> yes. >> and how do you plead? >> guilty. >> guilty. so you've pled guilty. i'm going to find you guilty on that basis.
all right, mr. reid, we're finished with the reports to this evening. thank you. >> jimmy's otherwise good behavior record over the past year helps him catch a break. he receives seven days loss of recreation time. his prison job wages and access to his cash account to buy supplies and snacks from the canteen. >> you're okay with it? >> for five reports, yes, i'm okay. >> jimmy is escorted back to his cell in d hall. the prison's protective custody wing. >> jimmy's done a lot of time in the jail. he's not a young chap anymore. jimmy has enemies in different establishments. and the mainstream halls. so that's why he's kept separate. >> i'm just getting medication off a doctor and a prisoner tried to take them off me and he sent another prisoner to my cell. i told the guy to [ bleep ] off. do me or i'll do you. i said, you're 30 years younger than me, but i will [ bleep ] murder you.
so either [ bleep ] off or shut the door. he [ bleep ] off. if they want to fight with me they'll fight with my rules. knife. then he -- then he won't fight. because he knows, he may not win. >> jimmy might convey a tough persona inside shotts. but he has serious concerns about what awaits him on the outside when he finally leaves. >> i killed a man who i knew well. which had two big sons. who are about 30 years of age, that region. who will cause me a problem when i get out. i understand that. i killed their father. so there's a problem. they may come looking for me. if anybody killed my father, i'd
[ bleep ] look for them. so i'm expecting that. do i walk away from it? or do i head back? my hands are tied. if i head back, i'm back in prison. but can i let these guys hurt me? they may not just hurt me. they may knife me. i knifed their father. it's a problem i've got ahead of me. i may move out of town. >> you think you're going to drink? >> why not? >> seems to cause you problems. >> i've been doing it for 40 years. every time i'm out. can i see myself stopping it? no. you want the truth, you're getting it. no. no.
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