tv The Last Word MSNBC November 15, 2011 10:00pm-11:00pm PST
it wasn't them saying, there's got to be losers and there's got to be winners. sorry. the thing that gave them away the latest twist from penn state, assistant coach mike mcqueary now says he did tell police what he saw jerry sandusky doing in the penn state showers. we're going to be joined by a lawyer who's been contacted by some of sandusky's alleged victims. >> involuntary deviant sexual intercourse. >> the scandal at penn state growing. >> becoming bigger and igliar.
>> the "new york times" saying ten more people. >> ten more have come out of the woodwork. >> to report similar assaults and the "new york times" says ten more so a total of 18. >> we have had a series of other accusers that have come out. >> bob costas grilled sandusky about the charges. >> you asked a simple question, are you sexually attracted to young boys. >> are you sexually attracted to young boys. >> he hesitated. >> sandusky made staggering admissions. >> yes i was in the shower. yes i was naked. yes i was a kid and yes there was touching going on. >> where do i begin? where do i begin here? >> he did not go hell no. hell no this didn't happen. >> i don't understand where you inadvertently touch a kid's leg. >> why would he agree to that? >> why were you in the shower with a 10-year-old in the first place. >> i would shout from the rooftops it was absolutely not me. >> do you think this interview is going to do more harm than
good? >> how does he remember the incident with mcqueary if it were as innocent as he would have us believe. >> mcqueary says he witnessed a rape. are you surprised he gave this interview? >> where's this guy's lawyer? >> either he's stone cold innocent and didn't do any of it or he is guilty of all of it. >> i shouldn't have showered with these kids. >> last night in an nbc news exclusive, penn state defensive coordinator spoke out for the first time since charged with sexually abusing eight young boys. tonight a key eyewitness speaks out in an interview with cbs news. >> do you have any idea when you think you might be ready to talk. >> the process has to play out. i just don't have anything else to say. >> okay. just one last thing. describe your emotions right now.
>> all over the place. kind of shaken. >> crazy? >> crazy. >> you said, what -- >> that was penn statewide receiver coach mike mcqueary who told the grand jury he witnessed sandusky raping a young boy in a locker room shower in 2002. in an e-mail obtained by the associated press today, mcqueary told a friend from penn state that he stopped that alleged assault by sandusky and discussed it with police. the e-mail appears to be about a week old, dated november 8th, and reads, in part, i did stop it. not physically but made sure it was stopped when i left that locker room. i did have discussions with police and with the official at the university in charge of police. pennsylvania is not one of the 18 states that require all adults to report suspected child abuse. today senator bud casey called for an expedited hearing in to
how federal laws apply to the sandusky investigation and to ensure that provisions for reporting suspected cases are in place. join me now an expert in representing sex abuse victims, a lawyer who has been contacted by some of the alleged victims in the sandusky case, attorney jeff her man and goldie taylor from thegrio.com rejoins us again tonight. thank you both for joining me tonight. >> thank you for having us, lawrence. >> i want to take a look at more of bob costas interview with sandusky last night. i want us to look at it and to look at it from your perspectives. goldie, you shared with us, as our viewers know last night, that when you were in high school you were subjected to abuse by a high school football coach, and from that perspective of that experience and obviously attorney herman from your expert perspective, let's take another
look at this interview with sandusky. >> i think that i am innocent of those charges. >> innocent? completely innocent and falsely accused in every aspect? >> well, i could say that, you know, i have done some of those things. i have horsed around with kids. i have showered after workouts. i have hugged them. i have touched their leg without intent of sexual contact but -- so if you look at it that way, there are things that -- that wouldn't -- that would be accurate. >> are you denying that you had any inappropriate sexual contact with any of these under-aged boys? >> yes, i am. >> never touched their genitals? never engaged in oral sex? >> right.
>> what about mike mcqueary, the grad assistant who in 2002 walked in to the shower, where he says in specific detail, that you were forcibly raping a boy who appeared 10 or 11 years old? >> i would say that is false. >> what would be his motive to lie? >> you would have to ask him that. >> are you a pedophile? >> no. >> what did happen in the shower the night that mike mcqueary happened upon you and the young boy. >> okay. we were showering and horsing around, and he actually turned all of the showers on and was actually sliding across the floor and we were -- as i recall possibly like snapping a towel, horse play. >> in 1998, a mother confronts you about taking a shower with her son and inappropriately touching him and two detectives
privately record you and you admit that maybe your private parts touched her son. what happened there? >> i can't recall what was i said there in terms of what i did say was that if he felt that way, then i was wrong, and i didn't want to leave that kind of impression. i did lift him and that is what i said. >> shortly after that in 2000, a janitor said that he saw you performing oral sex on a young boy in the showers in the penn state locker facility. did that happen? >> no. >> how could somebody think that they saw something as extreme and shocking as that when it hadn't occurred and what would be their motivation to fabricate it? >> you would have to ask them.
>> how do you account for these things and if you are not a ped file, then what are you? >> well, i'm a person that has taken a strong interest in -- i'm a passionate person in terms of trying to make a difference in the lives of some young people. i worked very hard to try to connect with them, to make them feel good about themselves, to be something significant in their lives. maybe this gets misinterpreted as, depending on -- i know a lot of young people where it hasn't. i have worked with many, many young people where there has been no misinterpretation of my actions and i have made a very
significant difference in their lives. >> isn't what you are just describing, the classic m.o. of many pedophiles there were hundreds if not thousands of young boys you came in contact with but there are allegations that at least eight were victimized and many believe there are more to come. >> i would guess there are many young people who would come forward, many more young people who would come forward and say that my methods and what i had done for them, made a very positive impact on their life. i didn't go around seeking out every young person for sexual needs that i have helped. there are many that i didn't -- i hardly had any contact with who i have helped in many, many ways. >> are you sexually attracted to under-aged boys? >> am i sexually attracted to
under-aged boys, sexually attracted, i enjoy young people i love to be around them. i but no, i'm not sexually attracted to young boys. >> did joe paterno at anytime speak to you directly about your behavior? >> no. >> never? >> no. >> what are you willing to concede that you have done that was wrong and you wish you had not done it? >> well, in retrospect, i shouldn't have showered with those kids. so -- >> that's it? >> well, that -- yeah, that's what hits me the most. >> i want to get your perspective as an attorney who has handled these kinds of cases as to what you think you were
just listening to. you have heard guilty people testify and the way they talk about it. you have heard people who are found not guilty. some people who are innocently charged talk about these things. what do you think you were just listening to? >> to me this is classic pedophile speak. first, a pedophile thinks they are not harming a child that they are loving a child and treating them with care, et cetera. and that's kind of what i hear sandusky describing. but then the classic pedophile also kind of justifies their behavior by all of the good they have done for other kids. he even talked about that. he wasn't sexually interested in every child. there were a lot of kids he barely had any contact at all. in his mind on one hand he is loving the kids and he doesn't think he was inappropriately at all. when you ask him, were you sexually inappropriate with a child, in a pedophile's mind they are not. but to the rest of the world and to the population it is inappropriate and it is classic
pedophile speak to me. >> jeff, the governor yesterday said he would like more victims to come forward, if they are out there. goldie taylor was on the show last night trying to support that notion and trying to give possible victims a sense of support, if they do come out. you have had some contact with some of the alleged victims in this case. do you expect more victims to emerge? >> yeah. i think really just after hearing sandusky last night, that will encourage a lot of victims to come forward. when other victims see the perpetrator or the institution in denial, what that does is that kind of sparks them to say, hey, that's not -- this stuff is true. i'm going to come forward. also what we see is collective empowerment. for many victims when it happens they are isolated. they are scared. they are alone. you saw what happened as soon as there were allegations against the penn state institution, there were riots in the streets.
so in those kind of circumstances, you can understand why victims are afraid to come forward. but now when there's momentum, and victims see other victims coming forward, there's a collective empowerment and it gives them the strength to come forward, which is -- you know, they need to get help. victims should come forward. get professional help because they are not alone and the worst thing for a victim is to suffer in silence. >> goldie, you have had the terrible, unfortunate experience of being around these kinds of predators in the worst possible way, not in a courtroom, but unprotected as a child yourself. you have heard them talk. what do you think you just heard? >> i'm hearing jerry sandusky really out of two ears. one, i'm hearing him as having been victimized in this way, by a football coach, and you got to feel like something's just amiss with this guy. that he really doesn't know that he is harming children.
that he doesn't know that, you know, this isn't the way you show your love and support and passion for children and supporting them in their growth. so i hear out of this ear that something is tragically wrong here. but i also hear it out of the ear of being a crisis communications expert for the mass part of my career. at the end of the day, if i'm jerry sandusky's lawyer, i don't let him make this phone call, let alone with bob costas, one of the top tiered journalist on this planet, sports or otherwise. at the end of the day, he certainly wasn't properly prepared for a live interview like this. and certainly the impact that it could have or i expect it to have on his victims and other victims to come up and stand up and stand out i think could really turn the table on this. >> there are many levels of shock and for me it includes how could a lawyer let this happen? we will come back and jeff, i want to get your perspective on
that one. how did a lawyer let that conversation happen last night? there is more in the show. coming up i. has been a wild day at occupy wall street protests. police came in the middle of the night to clear protests and that sparked an all-day legal battle. we will go to the protest site to see where things stand at this hour. and gabrielle giffords's coe referry. she elised a message to her constituents the intern hero who helped to save gifford's life gets tonight's "last word." ♪ ♪ mama said there'd be days like this ♪ ♪ "there'll be days like this," mama said ♪ [ male announcer ] the toughest job on the planet just got a little easier. with one touch technology and even an air scrubber. the nissan quest. innovation for family. innovation for all. get up to $3,050 total savings on the 2011 nissan quest.
>> how do you feel about what has happened to penn state and to joe paterno and the penn state football program and your part in it? >> well, how would you think that i would feel about a university that i attended, about people that i worked with, about people that i care so much about and, i mean, how do you think i would feel about it?
i feel horrible. >> jerry sandusky speaking to nbc's bob costas in an exclusive interview. we played much of the interview a few moments ago and asked our guests to watch it with us, as well. we are back now with attorney jeff herman who represents sex abuse victims and has been contacted by some of the alleged victims in this case and goldie taylor of thegrio.com, which is a division of nbc news. i want to go to goldie's last point of how could the lawyer for sandusky allow this to happen? i think we can all stipulate at this point, that jerry sandusky is represented by one of the worst lawyers that has ever handled one of these case. >> i was stunned to hear him talk the way he did n. the hundreds of cases i have handled on behalf of victims of sexual abuse never once have i seen their lawyer let them talk. never mind come on national tv and make the kind of statements he did.
it reminds me of father from malta who was accused of sexually abusing congressman folly a couple of years ago. before he lawyered up, he went on the press and said he was horsing around or marmless fooling around with a young boy. you don't usually see that it and it was pretty shocking to see it last night. >> he made his own media rounds. seems like the attention a little too much, saying he guesses he shouldn't have showered with those young boys. i want to go to this e-mail from mike mcqueary because there seems to be some strain between the e-mail and the grand jury testimony. in his e-mail he said, i did not -- i did stop it. he is now saying i did stop the it, not physically but made sure it waspp locker room. who knows what that means.
he may have just stared them down and that was enough to stop sandusky. but then he says the most interesting thing in this e-mail. i did have discussions with police and with the official at the university in charge of police. we don't know, from the e-mail, when he had those discussions. let me read to you the relevant elements of the grand jury report, which is based on mcqueary's testimony and let's see if we can make these things fit that e-mail. it says he saw a naked boy, victim two, whose age he estimated to be 10 years old with his hands up against the wall being subjected to anal intercourse by a naked sandusky. the graduate assistant was shocked, but noticed that both victim two and sandusky saw him them graduate assistant left immediately distraught. now, goldie, it is conceivable to me that those things fit. that mcqueary saw them, they saw
mcqueary. sandusky stopped. mcqueary was satisfied that this was over before he left. does that sound possible to you? >> it sounds possible to me and certainly we've got to hear a lot more from mcqueary to understand, you know, exactly what happened and when, but i just want to know why wouldn't he take the boy with him? why leave him in that shower with coach sandusky? that's perplexing to me. as to when and how he ever spoke to police officers, i imagine that will come out as the facts of the case are revealed. i've got a lot of questions about this and i think a lot of people do as to why you would not physically intervene if you spau saw something like that happen tong a young boy. i think it goes beyond the e-mail. >> the part about the police officers is the most interesting
part because the grand jury report says specifically that the graduate was never questioned by university police and no other entity conducted an investigation until he testifi in grand jury in december of 2010. so, how do we line up that with what we hear in the e-mail, jeff, jeff herman? >> well, i think you can reconcile it in this way. i'm speculating here, but we know that according to the the grand jury, that the report went up to the vice president of the university who specifically was in charge of the campus police. so, he may be kind of backtracking saying, well, i told the head of the police and perhaps this was an officer there at the time that he told it. but pretty clearly, there was no investigation and it certainly doesn't excuse or change the fact that what happened after 2002, in my opinion, was a massive cover-up, that enabled
sandusky to continue to abuse boys for many, many more years. the bottom line here is that joe paterno and the officials at penn state university in 2002 became aware that sandusky was using the football program to groom boys. with that knowledge, they did nothing to stop it. i think they are can culpable. and it's despicable after having that knowledge, sandusky was able to continue to use the penn state football program for the purpose of grooming young victims and destroying their lives. >> jeff herman, the alleged victims who have contacted you, are they already part of the case or are they victims who are contemplating coming forward? >> yes, i can't comment on any of the conversation cans i had. but i think we will hear from more victims. when you are dealing with -- if it is true he is a pedophile
there are probably dozens and dozens of victims going over a period of decades here. i think we are at the tip of the iceberg here. >> attorney jeff herman and goldie taylor, thank you both for joining me tonight. >> thank you. >> thank you for having me. >> coming up, the aftermath of the middle of the night raid by new york city police that cleared out the epicenter of the occupy wall street movement. and tonight's "tax policy super hero is the ingenious member of the super committee who has figured out how to lead republicans around grover norquist's anti-tax pledge that most of them have signed. that's in the "rewrite." ♪ i think i'm falling
a massive police force evicted occupy wall street protesters from the birthplace of the 99% movement. in zuccotti park, protesters are allowed to be back in. and i am joined next. and later we will look at congresswoman gabrielle giffords's first interview since the shooting that killed six and wounded 13 and we will hear from the young man who saved her life. [ artis brown ] america is facing some tough challenges right now.
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have lived almost two months is gone. after a wild day that started with a surprise police sweep of the park overnight, just after midnight, nypd officers, in riot gear, announced that anyone that did not immediately clear the space for cleaning would be arrested. just after 1:00 a.m., mayor bloomberg's office tweeted that ok pants of sioux totty should temporarily leave and remove tents and tarps. protesters can return after the park is cleared. they started to rip down the tents and cleared the area for sanitation workers. 200 people were arrested including a new york city councilman on charges of disorderly conduct and resisting arrest. by 8:30 a.m., the park had been cleaned out and the encamp s removed. mayor bloomberg held a press conference to say he was ready to let the protesters return, but he couldn't because of emergency legal action taken by the protesters.
>> we are now ready to reopen the park, but understood that there is a court order that we have not yet actually received. joining us from enforcing the rules so the park will remain closed until we can clarify that situation. i want to stress that our intention was to reopen the park and to let people go in and express their first amendment rights to protest, or their first amendment rights to just peacefully enjoy the park. >> mayor bloomberg laid out the argument the city would be making in court. >> the law that created zuccotti park required it be open for the public to enjoy for passive recreation 24 hours a day. ever since the occupation began, that law has not been complied with as the park has been taken over by protesters making it unavailable to anyone else. the first amendment protects speech.
it does not protect the use of tents and sleeping bags to take over a public space. protest evers have had two months to occupy the park with tents and sleeping bags. now they will have to occupy the space with the power of their arguments. >> protesters surrounded the perimeter of zuccotti park for most of the afternoon while waiting for the the court's decision. the michael stallman ruled in favor of the city and against occupy wall street protesters deciding, quote, the movements have not demonstrated that they have a first amendment right to remain in zuccotti park along with their tents, structures and generator and other enstallations to the exclusion of the owners reasonable rights and duties to maintain zuccotti park or the rights to public access of others who might wish to use the space safely. around 5:30 p.m., police opened
the barricades and allowed pro testers to return without sleeping ger and if they submitted to a police search. joining me now, by phone, from zuccotti park is a columnist for "the nation" magazine and msnbc analyst. thank you for joining me, ari. >> thank you. >> what is the situation there now? >> the situation is that you have a very similar gathering of people in the middle of the park, it is now more barricaded. there are basically check points, not unlike what you would see going in to a football game and you can only enter through those and only exit through different exits. so it feels a little more regulated, but other than that, and of course, other than the absence of the tents, as you reported, it is similar and the mood is very upbeat here tonight. >> ari, i want us to listen to what mayor bloomberg said today
in comparing what was done in new york to what has happened in other cities. >> i think you have to distinguish between what we're trying to do and what was done in many other places. in many places, they were prevented from going back in after the safety conditions were improved to protest. quite the contrary. here we welcome them back in. if they want to protest, they have a right to do so. brookfield properties has a legal obligation, with an agreement with the city to let them and has said they are happy to have them there to express their views, but that is not the same as taking over the park. >> so, ari, the mayor is saying as crackdowns go, this was the most benign nationwide because they just cleaned up and invited the protesters right back in. >> right. i think mayor bloomberg is asking to be judged against the
standard of other mayors and cities across the country, and i do think they have done better than other places like oakland. if you talk to people who are gathered here for weeks and months, many of them would say that is not their standard. some people argue that their rights are being infringed upon and the standard is the u.s. constitution. others would arguer in an ideological battle with the mayor and that they oppose his views and they his and they want to battle him in their right to assemble which they think is fettered and a broader discussion about the economy itself. >> ari, was there any stra tee teejic thinking, say whieg don't we call ate win. we have been invited back in. why don't we call it our win also. >> it is funny. i saw one person coming in
holding an american flag and saying i love america and want to make the country better and that actually, in at the moment they were prevented from entering. they were making an argument that this was a win for america and this they wanted to wave the flag. some people are walking on the sidewalk, not inside of the park and using that to hand off food and other supportive items while others are inside. i think this is a sense that some people feel this is a step forward and a chance to show that they are collaborative and they will last. so, i don't think it would be fair, i wouldn't want to suggest that it is all complaints. when it comes to the mayor, yeah, the general sentiment down here, including one sign that said, basically mr. mayor, if you are proud of what you did, why did you not want anyone to see it? that would be the sentiment here. >> what's happening there tonight looks like at least a partial win for the protesters to me. ari melber from "the nation." thank you very much for that report. >> thank you, lawrence.
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in tonight's "rewrite," it takes one to outsmart one. we have reported on republicans in the house and senate who are trying to pick the lock that grover norwis has on tax policy and he is the lobbyist who gets anti-tax republican candidates for the house, senate and presidency to take and anti-american oath to him before they take their oath of office. they sign a pledge to norquist, in writing, that they will never raise taxes in any way, including by closing the most egregious tax loopholes. lately, some republicans have taken baby steps toward reasonableness by saying things like they didn't think the pledge was for life, like their marriage vows, but now comes a republican, a signer of the norquist pledge who has figured out how republicans can vote to
raise taxes without violating their pledge to grover. the idea is a work of tax policy genius. like most works of genius, it is stunning in its simplicity and it's deeply and personally embarrassing to me that i didn't figure it out myself since i worked on tax policy in the senate for years. it was sitting right there in front of all of us and none of us saw it. except the freshman tea party supported senator from pennsylvania pat toomey, a member of the super committee. that is trying to come up with a deficit reduction package that includes spending cuts and tax revenue increases. toomey says, republicans can vote to raise taxes without violating the norquist pledge
because a vote to raise taxes will not technically be a vote to raise taxes under current law. this is so great. okay. here are the marginal -- the current marginal income tax rates for tax year 2011. look at these. if the super committee and congress do absolutely nothing, and do not change tax rates in any way under current law on january 1, 2012, tax rates are scheduled to return to the higher bill clinton rates for every tax bracket. look at how much high they are clinton rates are than the current george w. bush rates that are still in place. senator toomey is saying that republicans could vote for an increase of, say, 4 percentage
points in the top tax rate. take t from 35 to 39% and they would actually, technically be voting for a tax cut of .6%. okay. just stay with me. let me run this by you one more time so you can see the simple magic of this. but it says the top tax rate will be 39.6% if the republicans vote for a rate this year that is 39.6% or below that, they will technically not be voting for a tax increase and that is technically absolutely true. like everyone else who has stared at the norquist anti-tax, anti-american pledge, i've never ever been able to see any way around it.
no one has. it has appeared until senator toomey opened our eyes that norquist had written an ingenious pledge that was flawless, that had, pardon the expression, no loopholes, but it was republicans themselves who undermined the norquist pledge so completely. it was a republican president and a republican congress that put an expiration date on the bush tax rates. and it is that expiration date that has allowed pat toomey to outsmart grover norquist. i have had and surely will have many disagreements with pennsylvania's junior senator but tonight, i regard the senator and his staff with nothing short of awe for unlocking the norquist pledge. it's over, grover. you're expiration date has arrived.
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she's had to miss 98% of the votes in the congress she loves. so today, does she think she can go back to washington? >> no, better. >> it's better? >> i -- oh -- >> she wants to get better. >> better. >> you want to get better. >> better. >> and so you think to yourself, i'll go back to congress if i get better. >> yes. yes. yes. yes. >> and that's where you are right now. >> yes, yes, yes.
>> that was arizona congresswoman gabrielle giffords in her first interview since january 8th when she was wounded in a shooting rampage that left six dead and 13 bounded giffords and her husband mark kelly have co-authored a book. giffords posted an audio note to her constituents on her facebook wall. the message was recorded last week in houston where giffords has been undergoing rehabilitation therapy for ten months. >> hello. this is gabrielle giffords. i miss you. i miss tucson, the mountains, blue skies, even the heat. i'm getting stronger. i'm getting better. it's been a hard year for all of us. thinking about that day make
mess sad. six people died. six innocent people, so many people hurt there is lots to say i will speak better. i want to get back to work representing arizona is my honor. my staff is there to help you. they keep me informed on your behalf. i miss you. i miss home. i'll see you real soon. thank you. be alive today if not for the heroics of her then intern daniel hernandez. as president obama noted. >> we are grateful to daniel hernandez, a volunteer in gabby's office and daniel, i'm
sorry, you may deny it but we have decide you are a hero because you ran through the chaos to minister to your boss and tended to her wounds and help to keep her alive. >> joining me now, daniel hernandez who has just won his own election to the sunny side unified school district governing board in the tucson area. thank you very much for joining me tonight, daniel. >> thank you for having me on again, lawrence. >> daniel, what's it like to hear your former boss now finally being able to talk to us and her constituents via that sort of tape. >> i think it puts a big smile on everyone's face to be able to hear her in her own words saying hello and that she wants to come back. it is something that is heartening for all of us to hear her talking which is something that wasn't possible not too long ago. >> what's been the reaction in tucson to her interview and now actually they can hear her voice on facebook?
>> i think it has been absolute joy and people are really excited and all of us know her for being a fighter, whether it was fighting for her life on january 8th or fighting for her constituents on the floor of the house. she's always been a fighter and we are seeing the spirit she's always had represented in her recovery and her process to get better. so it is something that everyone is excited about to be able to see her and see her progress. >> we are getting closer, as everyone knows, to the election cycle next year for that, her house seat an every house seat. her husband has said that she would like to run. how do you think that will work? how could it work as a campaign and how do you think she will be received as a candidate for re-election, if she chooses to do that. she's not said she's made that choice yet. >> i think she even said it last night in the interview she wants to be better and makes sure she is better when she decides to run.
when she makes the decision it will be her decision and on her terms the deadline is approach but there is a lot of time between now and then. and i think we need to give her the time and space to get better so he can make that decision on her own. >> daniel, have the politics of her district changed in any significant way that would affect her re-election? >> you know, i don't think they have changed significantly. we've southeast seen a big mess here in arizona with the governor ousting the independent chair of the redistricting commission. we don't even know what they are district would look like in 2012. the latest district got rid of some of the conservative parts of her district and actually made it a more competitive district than before. for all intents and purposes, if the maps stay the way they are, it would be easier for her to win re-election. >> daniel hernandez, great to see and hear from you once again. thank you for being with us
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