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tv   NOW With Alex Wagner  MSNBC  February 17, 2012 9:00am-10:00am PST

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politico's glenn thrush and sam stein. with all this talk about aspirin, santorum's biggest supporter is causing him headaches. joining us now is hogan, thank you as also for being with us. >> thank you very much for the time, alex. >> hogan let's go to you first, we know there's cooperation between the super pacs and the campaigns, what do you make of foster friess's comments? >> right, well, you know, we are not going to comment on someone who has no affiliation with the campaign. he does not work for the campaign or rick santorum or speak for the campaign and sure
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doesn't speak for rick santorum. so, it's just not an issue we are going to address, as you mentioned before, there's no coordination between the campaign and the pac. so whatever foster says, he says. and some of those things are not necessarily the best things but it's not our place to comment on who has no a mill consideration with the campaign. >> foster friess, let's be honest here folks. he is bringing a part of santorum's record which is his position on birth control that could be a problem. what do you make of it? >> i will give hogan the benefit of the doubt here. it's impossible to hold people to the words that their top donors are putting out there and the same argument was put forward obama with his associations. but you bring up an interesting point, the senator has a sort of tough stance when it comes to conceptions, and you know, this
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issue is not, for some reason it continues to be part of the discussion and i think part of it is because it serves senator santorum well in the primary but the question could be put to hogan, do you find that it's a good stance for something in the general election format? the country is so far beyond this debate that we are having now, you look at the polls and it has to be a little troubling to you that your candidate and others in the republican party are in the minority here, right? >> well, what is really troubling is that the fact, the fact is that rick santorum continually gets misquoted on this topic. he has been very clear about this. and personally he is opposed to conception, but he has said many times, that if a state or federal government tried to legislate conception, he would be opposed to that because he believes in a woman's right to consepgz. his personal beliefs do not cloud his political beliefs. he has been clear on this many
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times. the fact that it continues to be an issue shows the smear campaign that has begun whether it's on the attacks from the left or whatever. the more they realize rick's stance they will say we pretty much agree on the issue. >> i don't know about that i think there's a approximate bit of confusion on where senator santorum is. we listen to the sound bites of had him saying, that he wants to espouse the obtainidangers of conception, it clouds the issue as far as what would happen if we had a president santorum. glenn? >> there's all sorts of policyism indications of holding that view. sex education in schools, and the notion of where health care dollars will be spent, there's a large school of thought, including for the national institutes of health, that c
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conception will a save a lot of money and b, save a lot of lives. are you willing to tell foster friess not to give money to the super pac in support of rick santorum? i think that is a pretty obvious question here. if you do not endorse this message, if this is not something you want him to be saying you have an opportunity to say, stop giving money to this super pac. >> hogan you want to respond to that? >> yeah. i really don't have the opportunity to say that because we do not talk or have conversations and people support different candidates for different reasons. i'm not going to try -- >> it's like jon stewart. >> if they want to donate rick sno santorum, i'm not going say they do not have to the right to. you are taking it down a odd
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road, you cannot be responsible for what people say that are not affiliated to your campaign. >> you have a free speech right to make your opinion known. is this someone that is being linked on your campaign, is this someone you want affiliated with your campaign. >> let's keep in mind, foster friess introduced rick santorum at the conservative political action conference last week. so there's a link there regardless of financial support. >> they are friends and they have been friends for a while. but that doesn't mean they agree on all their positions and statements. you know, we have been clear, we are not going to try and reign in foster friess or keep him from saying something, because we do not really talk to foster friess all that much we do not have conversations with him about anything. foster is being foster and his comments were not good and that is my personal opinion.
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but that is ridiculous. >> congratulations on the campaign, but the reality is that hogan is on tv talking about foster friess's statements and it's a off message and a problem for the campaign. the reality is this, rick santorum is now the national front-runner in the race. and things go viral fast and it's hard contain, i'm sure that hogan would rather be talking about the senator's economic speech yesterday. that shows you the viral nature of this. >> it's not just foster. it is not just santorum or foster friess, we have been talking about conception for three weeks now. 8% of news coverage has been on conception and and 10% on the economy. that should not be on the same
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level. there are significant issues out there. but the point is that -- >> you are missing -- >> -- go ahead sorry. >> you are completely missing the point. this is not a story about conception, it's about taking someone's freedom away. >> that is what i was getting at. it was a story about health care mandate that was turned into a story about conception in large part because of one senator blunt expanding the scope of the amend so that any health care provider could drop the coverage, and two because of foster friess's comments that aspirin could put between a gal's knees and that should be sufficient. that turned it into a conversation. >> and we had a hearing yesterday, an all male panel talking about a -- it's not just a women's issue but certainlily women's voices should be included, should they not? >> the bigger issue you have right now at this point is trying to say that this is his personal opinion and this is what he would do. because people are always going
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to try to confuse that and they are frankly going to think that you are trying visit both ways that we are not personally in favor of these issues but we would act differently. he has to come out clearly and that has not come across clearly that this is how he feels and this is how he would act as a legislator. >> that is ridiculous. i mean, he has been clear on this issue. i mean, it's something his faith teaches and it's something he believes in his faith. but from a policy, public policy standpoint, it's not the government's business had what a woman does with consepgceptioco has been clear on that. it's two different things. >> let's make a pivot to something you want to talk about which is the spending in michigan. and the santorum pac is spending $655,000 on the tv ads and about
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a half a million dollars in michigan. you are making a run here. we mow the romney attack machine, sparta as it's called, they are spending $2 million and the campaign is spending $1.2 million, do you think you can committee with them on the air? >> it's not about competing with them on the air. it's about competing with them in the hearts and minds of the voters. that has been what we have seen in the last few weeks. speaking of going viral, as rick's campaign is exploding across the country and in michigan and ohio. what is important here is that rick santorum can relate to voters and that is a huge difference and of course the voter can relate to rick santorum. that is what he is doing. when he brings the message of manufacturing and smaller government, the people are moving toward that. we are not going toe to toe with romney with his negative d.c. ad machine. th that is impossible.
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he has enough money to take out a small country. but what we are trying do is just compete message to message, messager to messager and you have seen that in three states already, when it's about message, we are winning anywhere from five points to 30 points and i think that is the big difference. >> thank you for joining our program, there's a whole of aspirin for having to deal with our questions from foster friess, we will be looking forward to your movements in the coming weeks. >> good luck, bud. >> thanks, guys. >> mitt romney underdog, as he falls behind in michigan, what does he have to do buckle up the rust belt. answers to that next on "now." [ kate ] many women may not be properly absorbing the calcium they take because they don't take it with food. switch to citracal maximum plus d. it's the only calcium supplement that can be taken with or without food.
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you are looking live at the floor of the u.s. senate where the senate has just passed the payroll tax cut extension, i was going to say that cats and dogs are now friends and money will fall from the sky. that is not happening either. we will talk about this later in the show. meanwhile the battle for the coal mining vote is on, here is what an romney and rick santorum said last night. >> my grandfather was a coal minor and at age six he started working in the coal mines. >> it's those roots, growing up the grandson of a coal minor and growing up in a steel town in butler, pennsylvania that have forged me. >> the coal minor vote. obviously a bid for
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authenticity. let's talk about about how romney is trying to win over michigan voters. >> he has a big issue in trying to thread the needle in terms of not being for the auto bailouts but saying he would not have let the industry go under. he said that he would have made sure that the government financing was there to take them through a bankruptcy. i can understand that but explaining that to an audience is difficult. he is in a situation where a lot of people think he would let this industry die. >> supporting tar and not the auto bailouts. it's again, that awkward, he can have -- wanting to have it both ways. >> the point the romney campaign is trying make which is utleys y ultimately the system by which it has allowed the company to
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grow was the path that mitt recommended in his op-ed. >> the point -- >> they are giving money to the unions that made a lot of money on the deal when the american taxpayers are on the hook for it. >> i think there's been a number of fact checking operations or newspaper columnists who has looked into it and noticed several problems with his op-ed, one the bailout started under bush not president obama. he acts like there w s like the of privacy financing that could jump in. he said specifically that the government jumped in to put cash into the auto industry when they needed it at a time when the auto industry could have looked for private money. lehman just collapsed. >> that was true, but you had a government guarantee backing it
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it could have been a different story. >> correct, but there was a question whether you could get the money in in time. this is another point the idea that it was to the benefit of the uaw and other unions is silly. if you look at the news coverage at the time, there was complaints that the units were having to take a haircut when the bankers were not getting anything like that. >> and these nuances are lost on voters. they do not care about this. this is not just an issue for him in michigan, it's, i think, perhaps strategically moran issue in eastern ohio where you have the parts manufacturers and you have a total killing ground for democrats in ohio, they lost five congressional states that is looking -- the folks in chicago were worried about, it seems like history, but they were worried about rick perry doing well because of states
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like michigan and ohio because of the appeal that he would have to working class voters. they are not afraid of mitt romney. >> well, let's talk about rick santorum and his appeal to working class voters and what he is saying about mitt romney and the bailouts. >> governor romney supported the bailout of wall street and decided not to support the bailout of detroit. my feeling was, that we should not support the government -- the government should not be involved in bailouts period. i think it's a more consistent position. >> this is the thing about santorum, the consistency factor. i think at the end of the day we talk about this, and with mitt, it's the idea that you have no idea where he is standing. we are talking about his economic record and business record, he is getting hit hard on this. and that is why he should be the inevitable candidate. >> santorum has been all over the map on spending.
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that has been a central discussion in michigan. he voted for the bridge to nowhere and debt ceiling increases, he has a long history of pork barrelling in d.c. mitt romney has none of that. >> what about the olympics. >> let's take that. i know some things about this, most of that money was appropriated prior to romney coming in, and it was for security, it's an nsse events and most of it went to the transportation and infrastructure for this item and it's a different item than pork barrels. >> most of it, wait. most of the private money, something like a half a billion dollars of the money that was appropriated privately was gotten before romney took over but the $342 million that was for security and transportation
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was the product of this lobbying campaign that romney and k-street people did in washington. you have statement after statement from john mccain where he accused, mccain who is his supporter now, accused him of pork barrelling and earmarking. >> he turned asround the games that were going broke. and he put on the most successful -- >> i'm not den grating the salt lake city olympics but we are talking about earmarking if he has to hit santorum on it, he has a problem in his own backyard. >> i was talking to phil offset about this, romney has a reputation of having this gradual evolution from moderation to conservatism. and in part because he disavowed reagan. we went back and looked at santorum's run in 1990, he said
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that he was not a reagan republican. he had the same rhetoric that romney is getting hit on every day. for some reason it sticks to romney more. probably because the evolutions are more severe but to call santorum pure is silly. >> i do not think i called -- >> the national glare is coming down on santorum and the things that sam points out will make their way into this campaign soon. >> a couple million dollars that will i'm sure address that. after the break, newt gingrich, we have not said his name yet, newt gingrich is the last man standing a after the final presuper tuesday collapses. guess who is giving him cash? we will ask the panel where the former speaker f ee eer fits in race, next. i had enough of feeling embarrassed about my skin. [ designer ] enough of just covering up my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis.
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we are back, and we are ready to talk about newt gingrich. newt gingrich is receiving a $10 million infusion from sheldon -- super pac, i cannot get this right. rewind the tape. from sheldon adelson, his biggest supporter. what do we make of newt gingrich, we know, he will be alone, last we saw him he was holding a facebook town hall at the zoo but sheldon adelson not discouraged. >> we will go to newt, i would be surprised if there's another $10 million check in the mail from adelson but we will not know because the disclosures will be disclosed on february 20th -- most of the money we
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will not know about until march betwe 20th. he has put in 10 million dollars plus and he has to look at newt's path forward -- >> we calculated his rough estimates $3 million every six hours. and it was not that big a deal for sheldon. doesn't this get to the point that gingrich can kind of coast. if it's not costing you that much money to run a campaign and you is have the luxury of the super pac whampt is -- what is the reason for gingrich to drop out? you the facade of it being there and so you just keep going. >> and he proved that he can live off the land. at the end of the day, it will
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be cockroach's share and newt gingrich. >> he can, but he has bulked up a bit. if he wins georgia on super tuesday, that is 76 delegates and that will put him in a position, the one thing we learned about this race is that what we think will happen has been the opposite. and with this going to june, california and new york will play big roles in ways that, at least new york has in the past, this is going for a long time and for gingrich, he does not have to go anywhere in the short-term if he does not want to on the campaign side he is having trouble raising money. >> gingrich is 1.4% winning the election against obama. >> coming up. lame duck, lame duck or plain
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lame. the payroll tax passed but what is next for congress? zero according to a senator. there a is next on "now." the employee of the month is... spark card from capital one. spark cash gives me the most rewards of any small business credit card. it's hard for my crew to keep up with 2% cash back on every purchase, every day. 2% cash back. that's setting the bar pretty high. thanks to spark, owning my own business has never been more rewarding. [ male announcer ] introducing spark the small business credit cards from capital one. get more by choosing unlimited double miles or 2% cash back on every purchase, every day. what's in your wallet? this guy's amazing. until the end of the quarter to think about your money... ♪ that right now, you want to know where you are, and where you'd like to be. we know you'd like to see the same information your advisor does so you can get a deeper understanding of what's going on with your portfolio. we know all this because we asked you,
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conference report is agreed to, 60-36. >> just moments ago, the senate approved the payroll tax cut extension, the agreement was a show of bipartisan ship but will it be the last until next year? i don't know if that is a retore cal question, but i think it is. washington experts all of you. lyndsay graham said the likelihood of anything else happening, the chances of tackling the issues are zero.
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which is to say that the issues that remain on the docket. if you are looking for a positive spin on this, i do not have one to give you. >> that is nice. >> here is the silver lining. look the payroll tax deal is like a bandaid, it's a ten-month bandaid and settling something that could have caused more confusion. the offset in paying for it is they will auction a bunch of spectrum for the country and what that means for viewers is faster service with respect to three, four, 8 g whatever we are up to and that is a piece of the bill for our country that is a net benefit. >> there's a nightmare scenario being talked about, there's a possibility that the debt ceiling deal will not get us through the election and we will end up somewhere in october before the election. in which case, there may in fact be a replay of this whole drama that we went through and there
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will have to be at some point, a bipartisan action. >> i wonder because of how bloodied everyone was after the last debt ceiling situation, the other silver lining is that the republican caucus kind of got its troops in the line and managed to pass this thing. >> i would not say they were in line. i would say they were fleeing like mad. >> but they did -- >> to recognize what they did in late december. >> this was a victory for john boehner who did heavy lifting behind the scenes. >> it was a victory like in 1940, get off the beach as fast as you can with as few casualties as you can. what i'm hoping for is that we have a brokered convention and the debt ceiling at the same time. >> just to make sure no one >> and let's remember we are throwing in immigration and the health care law. it's going to be a busy year. >> let's add an element of
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seriousne seriousness, it would be nice to have a jobs' creation package of a sort that there was continuity on. congress cannot get their act together and it's unfortunate because the economy could use a boost. >> what about the idea of a potential simpson-bowles redo. i say it because i do not think it's necessarily going to come from congress or the administration or anybody there. but there's a movement afoot among ceos and people in the country who are trying to push it and saying you cannot wait any longer. if it's something that comes from the people it could put pressure on people in congress. >> with the payroll tax, i get my deals mixed up -- >> there was to budget deal. >> thank you. what the payroll tax deal shows that the dynamics have shifting in the other dprekz and that while some polls are showing that independents are moved by the deficit argument of course as you are looking at district by district the conversation is
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turning to jobs. >> they did not pay for the payroll tax cut, it's amazing, you could not have done this a year ago. which in turn could lead you to believe that maybe there's a bit of transportation bill that could be there because people want to pork in their strict. but nothing along the lines of $4 trillion in deficit reduction. >> do you think, do we have a sense that lawmakers have learned anything? i mean this seems to be a bit of hope. i'm not saying they will get legislation passed this year. >> i think fear more than hope. it's funny. democrats were saying it and folks in the white house were saying it for months and months and months in 2010gre gregz offices. they are going to get the sense that -- >> they do not want to go home and deal with the bs that is
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thrown their way. there was a well run campaign that put an intense amount of heat on republicans for possibly letting the payroll tax cut lapse and they did not enjoy it. and they did not want to have to go through it again. so the turkey sandwich is nice. >> they want to keep their jobs. >> we are talking about 55 competitive races that probably lean slightly in the house. 21 democrat, and ten republicans. i'm not sure it's the driving dynamic, i think there's a clashing set of world views. the republicans will pass their budget and do their work and it will stay in the senate and we will get a decision at the end of the year. and from the business perspective, everyone with a brain is saying we need to move forward with tackling these serious measures and
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simpson-bowles was something worth looking at. from the business's community's perspective it's notity -- it's not ideal. >> if nothing happened, the expiring of the bush tax cuts will happen. >> the irony of calling the lame duck session the lame duck session and this actual session of congress. >> if you take off one out of every four on years when do you get anything done? every two year s >> this is a good question, after the break, a new front in the issue against al qaeda, we will ask a journalist who has seen failures first hand about the foreign policyism indication -- policy implications that is next on "now." hey. did you guys hear...
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as the situation in the middle east grows more fractured there's questions about the counter terrorism policy. we have jermey with us today, it's a great piece you wrote. i wanted to discuss a couple of pieces from to story that were interesting. you quoted, remeni tribesman share one common goal with al qaeda which americans. >> you know, president obama began bombing yemen in december 2009, and in the first strike he authorized cruise missiles and
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bombs that shred people to meat, it killed civilians. we know from the wiki leak cables that it was u.s. forces. and we went and saw them and they were saying made in the united states on them. that caused a situation where al qaeda in arabian peninsula, they are limited to the failed underwear bomber, but the fact is that these tribes that did not have a love for al qaeda are starting to say, we share an agenda with them and the u.s. counter terrorism is unpopular. the u.s. backed this corrupt ruthless dictator. he is at the ritz carlton hotel right now. the counter terrorism policy is
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backfiring in an extraordinary way and fulfilling the words of the al qaeda guys, that is what i heard from people, why is the u.s. bombing and why are they hitting simpcivilians? >> the funding of the counter terror movement is biting us, it's counter intu active at the end of the day. >> why do they hit civilians? did you get a answer? >> it cuts to the heart. it's happening regularly in pakistan, the u.s. intelligence relies often times on human intel on the ground. my understanding from the people in the intelligence community and some people are very upset about this. you need three human intelligence reports to put somebody on a kill list, if you have someone with tribal grudges
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they can do death by americans. they say, there's taliban commanders in this house and the third guy comes and says they are preparing a suicide bomber navy seals bursts into a home and end up shooting a bunch of people and it turns out that it was a u.s. trained afghan police officer and that was a true story. it could be that a regime fed bad intelligence to try to kill political opponents. there was a deputy director that was killed in a u.s. air strike and u.s. intelligence officials believe that it was because regime wanted him killed that we were fed bad intelligence. we are the most cluelesses people operating yemen the saudis are more informed than uses. >> and there's a financial
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advantage. >> it's his crack cocaine, the leader is a cleaver deictators e realized that all he had to say to bush was we are with you. he takes our money and builds up counter terrorism groups and it's admitted that his forces are not fighting terrorism, they are being used for defense of the regime in the face of a popular uprising. >> are looking -- foreign policy is not something we have discussed as late, but we have sort of rebuffed accusations that obama was an appeaser. but one of the questions is what will happen in terms of foreign policy, in syria, iran and israel. >> and foreign policy is what people are concerned about. jermey what is the answer? do we increase the budget for the cia to make sure we have our
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own people on the ground? >> there's a school of thought, some are saying that tcount -- e have to stop being afraid of islamist movements in the region, i talked with the forrer he -- the former head of the cia, the united states has been so afraid of the word islam that we are failing to understand the allies we have. if we are setting out to defeat terrorism, what we are doing is creating the threat that we say we are trying to address or to stamp out. what is interesting, alex, is this washington post, abc poll showed that 83% of americans support the drone policy, but i would be curious to see if there
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was a president mccain ins offe if that would be true. they are supporting target assassinations even of american citizens without trial. >> there's no reports of the collateral damage of the drone strikes and it makes liberal democrats feel good that they can support -- >> president obama has gotten a huge pass from libertarians because he is a democrat. and it's one of those things that we see people like glenn green wald talk about all the time. it's not honest to not hold him to the same accountability as they held bush. >> thank you so much for joining us, jermey. a great read, coming up the linspiration, it's coming.
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a look back at "what just happened" that is next on "now." wanna know the difference between a trader and an elite trader? it's this... the etrade pro platform. fast. beautiful. totally customizable. finds top performing stocks -- in three clicks. quickly scans the market for new trading ideas. it can even match options strategies to your goals and lets you see the potential risk and reward. and, it also comes with a dedicated elite service team. got it? get it. good. introducing new etrade pro elite. ♪ [ sighs ] i can't wait till morning. wait! it's morning in china! ♪ [ male announcer ] it's sweet, it's nutty... it's absolutely delicious. kellogg's crunchy nut. it's morning somewhere.
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this week, an unlikely hero won the attention of the nation and he did it without a super pac. it's time to look back and ask, what just happened? >> friends here, i'm -- ann is not here today. don't tell. >> for the first time since iowa, the candidates were left on their own. no debates and no primaries. so another figure captured the american focus, a rising chinese star, no not him, it was lin-sanity of the brain. >> hash tag lining.
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>> jeremy stop asian profiling. >> super lin-tendo and even the president could not resift. >> this is a great story, and the president was saying it's type of story that transends itself. >> i saw pictures of boehner and cantor, these are demons. >> not immediately. >> the president has abandoned his role as leader of the nation. >> it's a fundamentally unserious budget. >> last year's budget was not worth the paper it was printed on. >> but maybe eventually. >> i'm glad we were able to reach agreement. >> the republican party is looking for their own super star. and it could be a linderella
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story. the winner cannot simply be crowned. >> i was behind gingrich by five ten points and i ended up winning. hopefully it will happen again. >> rick santorum, big spender, washington insider. this time romney is firing his mud at rick santorum. >> and if the knicks have shown us anything, don't count out the guy on the bench. or at the elephant cage. >> this is part of my valentine's day, i get to come and hang out with elephants for a while. >> that is -- that was i think actually my favorite, my favorite moment of the week is newt gingrich in front of the elephant cage. i'm wearing my playbook on my arm, football style, it's the wrong sport. has all the primaries and caucuses on it and the televised debate s as we talk about the
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political season, can someone from the back of the bench pull a jeremy lin? >> can they? sure. >> will they? >> unlikely. at the end of the day the process will be long and our party has decided to change the rules so we have this long, long examination of all these candidates' flaws and the positives and negatives it will go to june. at the end of the day, the candidate who i think will likely win the nomination is romney. he will continue a steady march, the only thing i'll say on this is, everyone in the media is saying that romney must win michigan, the truth is that santorum must win michigan. but -- >> both of them must win michigan. >> if mitt wins arizona and michigan, then we move the bench mark and say he has to win five states on super tuesday. >> senior romney advisers were quoted as saying that he must
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win michigan. so i'm not sure it was the media's fault. >> have we ruled out a surge for santorum, and him making a ball of this thing? >> these numbers, i would be worried about these numbers if i were the romney campaign and there were that was, i know you think it's crazy. there was a poll by rasmus a couple of days ago that showed romney, what? down by 20 points at least double digits in ohio. >> that is crazy. >> he may dig his way to freedom. >> we have to wrap it, becky? >> i think it will be romney at the end of the day. >> boring, that is all for "now," we will see you back here monday at noon eastern. and until then, follow us on twitter. "andrea mitchell reports" is next. happy friday to you ms. mitchell.
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>> happy friday to you, the fall out continues after santorum supporter foster friess's appearance on our show gone viral. women senators today are calling the conception debate an assault on women and more like an episode of madmen. senators patty murray and barbara boxer will join us today along with former senator allen simpson. next right here on "andrea mitchell reports." [ tom ] we invented the turbine business right here in schenectady.
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without the stuff that we make here, you wouldn't be able to walk in your house and flip on your lights. [ brad ] at ge we build turbines that power the world. they go into power plants which take some form of energy, harness it, and turn it into more efficient electricity. [ ron ] when i was a kid i wanted to work with my hands, that was my thing. i really enjoy building turbines. it's nice to know that what you're building is gonna do something for the world. when people think of ge, they typically don't think about beer. a lot of people may not realize that the power needed to keep their budweiser cold and even to make their beer comes from turbines made right here. wait, so you guys make the beer? no, we make the power that makes the beer. so without you there'd be no bud? that's right. well, we like you. [ laughter ] ♪ when the doctor told me that i could smoke
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oh! [ baby crying ] ♪ what started as a whisper ♪ every day, millions of people choose to do the right thing. ♪ slowly turned to a scream ♪ there's an insurance company that does that, too. liberty mutual insurance. responsibility. what's your policy? ♪ amen, omen this consepgz thing is sp s expensive, the gals put aspirin between their knees and it was not so costly. >> excuse he me, i'm trying catch my breath from that. >> it's not what people say, it's what people hear, a lot of people that were younger than 71 did not get e