tv Morning Joe MSNBC November 30, 2012 3:00am-6:00am PST
the texts and tweets are coming in. at the top of the show, we asked you why you were awake? producer john tower has your answers. >> i'm an inso mamniacinsomniac and joe do not look early doing this early show. are they being punished by comcast? >> we love it. i don't know what you're talking about. we love it. we are up so early in the next one. what's the next one? >> mandy on twitter. >> mandy, yes. >> come on, guys, be nice to the weather guys. his show was better than what you guys did today. more bill karins. >> more bill karins. control room, do we like bill karins? oh. really? great. you're all fired. okay. "morning joe" starts right now.
see, here's what happened. two summers ago, congress realized that if they couldn't compromise on a deficit and revenue plan, our economy would crash. turns out they couldn't compromise. so here's what they did. in order to force themselves to work together and compromise, they concocted a catastrophic penalty that would itself crash our economy. brilliant. put it another way. if there is an asteroid headed towards the earth, we made it and fired it at ourselves. because otherwise we would never have done the hard work required to protect ourselves from asteroids. >> good morning. it's friday, november 30th. welcome to "morning joe." with us on set, we have msnbc
political analyst and vice president and executive editor of msnbc.com, richard wolffe is here. >> he's here? >> my lord. right here on the set. political editor and white house correspondent for the huffington post, sam stein. >> hi. >> cute thing. and msnbc political analyst and visiting professor at nyu and former democratic congressman harold ford jr. >> good morning. >> good morning. >> he's reading. >> put that down right now. put the smut down. close it up. >> i'm learning to do it. i'm addicted. >> and in washington, msnbc and "time" senior political analyst, mark halperin. thanks so much, everybody, for being with us. >> morning. >> a very provocative, according to "the wall street journal," proposal that tim geithner brought over to the republican leaders yesterday. >> how'd that go? >> "the new york times" said it was, quote, loaded with democratic priorities and short on spending cuts. i'm just curious, it didn't go well. obviously, mitch mcconnell
laughed at the offer, which i would have laughed at the offer, too. >> you would have laughed out loud at the treasury secretary? making a presentation? >> you know what i actually would have said? >> what? >> listen, we're all busy people. this is a critical time. if you're going to come over here and insult us and intentionally try to provoke us, you can do that. but i'm going back to work now. and i'd walk out. listen, this thing, $1.6 trillion of revenue, of new taxes, no specific cuts according to "the new york times" and "wall street journal." actually, $50 billion more in stimulus spending and no specific spending cuts. it was a nonstarter, and they knew it was a nonstarter. richard wolffe, my question to you is, why did the white house decide to have this as their opening volley when they knew the response would be a negative one that they drew?
>> well, they put on $400 billion in medicare cuts. so there were some specifics in there. but was it a hardball opening? yeah, of course it was. the question is, what's the counteroffer, right? they're trying to not just provoke a no. they want the counteroffer. and the counteroffer is, what is it? there isn't one. >> it looks like right now it will probably come back now as $800 billion in new revenue, probably higher specific cuts. >> you forget one extra demand, of course, which is ban the debt ceiling piece. that's huge, right? that's, like, unilateral disarmament. we're going to offer you to unilaterally disarm. i like that one, too. because they were sensible. let's face it, the markets would welcome that, right? >> i think the market would welcome a more serious discussion. i was disappointed in the offer. i think you're probably right that this was a negotiating ploy, the beginning of a long perhaps 30-day negotiation, but when you have ceos of the
largest companies in the country, the biggest in the world, suggesting that one, they might redomicile to a different country, that they're concerned about not only tax rates but regulatory -- the regulatory regime, i'm just not sure that this will sit well. >> that's what i was going to ask you. here we are a year later after we've been through this fiasco already. we've been through the threat of a government shutdown. everybody's known this time was coming. i understand negotiating. i understand taking a hard line. i just wonder, with america and the world, business leaders here, business leaders around the world, the markets, everybody else looking so closely at this, was it necessary for the president to be so provocative with something that, you know, even "the new york times" said was, quote, loaded with democratic priorities, and really gave republicans nothing. >> again, it's a curious offer.
i would imagine there has -- tim geithner's too smart of a guy, and this administration is filled with smart people. they must have a serious strategic plan. but if you were a pedestrian watching this, if the ceo of a company that's not been into the white house, a medium-size to small company, it has to be a source for alarm this morning that maybe they're not nearly as close to a deal as we thought. let alone if you're a ceo if you've been in the office with the president and you've laid out some of your priorities and concerns. >> so but it is step one, though, in a negotiation. >> it is step one. >> okay. so it's like bidding on a house. you always go farther from where you're going to be. >> but you have to be careful, though, when you bid on the house, as you know, you've got to be careful to not start with such an insulting offer -- >> yeah. >> -- that you've just caused the other side to -- >> i don't know. it's always worked for me. >> yeah. >> i've gotten some great deals. >> i don't do it that way. >> i'm just saying. >> but if we don't buy this house, we've got a big problem. >> i was going to say, this
isn't like a house that you say here's my offer, screw it, walk away. >> i don't think that's what they were saying. >> i think they were awfully reckless yesterday with this first offer. >> let me play devil's advocate. although i do agree with what you're saying to an extent. look at the other side that they're dealing with. the republicans they're dealing with. many of the same people that they've been dealing with for the past four years. so what would you do if you knew who you were up against? would you come out there with something that was incred reply giving from the get-go? >> no, but mark halperin, i wouldn't go out of my way undercutting john boehner because this is all about the president and john boehner's relationship. john boehner now, when he walks back to hc-5 and he has that meeting with a republican caucus that he's having to drag to the table to bring -- generate new revenue. he now goes back, and boehner faces a very angry caucus. tom cole came out and said, hey, let's go ahead and raise taxes.
that was remarkable. eric cantor on this show said, we have to raise additional revenue. republicans have stepped forward and said that. if i were a sitting member of congress right now, a guy on this show who has said for years we have to make a deal, my response to john boehner would be very simple. just stop talking to him. don't talk to them until they make a serious offer. just don't. because this is, after all, a party that's been running the u.s. senate for years, and they've never produced a budget. if they want to offer us something serious, great. if not, well, we'll just sit back and wait. really, i've got to say, i'm really stunned by what happened yesterday, mark. tell us why it happened the way it did. >> it was the worst day since election day for optimists like me who thought we were headed towards a deal. i think you put your finger on the exact thing, which is anything which makes it harder for john boehner to join arms
with the president and make a deal is worse for the process. now, look. mitch mcconnell, he has a very easy laugh. he's a guy who likes to laugh. so not surprising that he would laugh at the offer. but you've got charles krauthammer writing today basically saying hey, let's go over the cliff. and the president will take responsibility. the biggest danger is now you've got people on both sides saying hey, maybe going over the cliff isn't so bad. for the democrats because they think it gives them leverage and then having a different kind of tax vote than they'd have to have now because everybody's taxes would go up, and then you could vote to lower them on some. and for the republicans, krauthammer as kind of a canary in the coal mine saying yeah, if we go over the cliff, republicans will get some blame, but the president will own it because the economy will get worse. that dynamic is so dangerous right now. and i think the president and boehner should talk today, and i bet they do. >> or, gentlemen, and all of you might know something about this, it's posturing. and john boehner gets to go back
and say listen, this is what i think i can get out of him. and john boehner gets some of the credit for bringing them around. i mean, there is a process here that i think all of you know just a tad bit about, especially you. >> can you explain this to me, though? >> yeah. >> okay. so if it's posturing, that's fine. we all nld the postuunderstand . again, though, the most important dynamic here is between the president and boehner and republicans who have not voted to raise any taxes in washington in, what, 20, 25 years. >> mm-hmm. >> and so as mark said, the president has just made john boehner's job much, much more difficult. everybody's looking at tom cole now. who's going to be primaried. see, tom, this is what happens when you say -- this is what happens when you go and try to meet democrats halfway. according to "the new york times," they start with a proposal that's loaded with democratic priorities. according to "the wall street journal," the first offer was provocative.
suddenly tom cole looks like an idiot out there. >> or he gives someone to boehner's left so he doesn't look so extreme. >> but again, the president, by putting this offer out there, just made it impossible for another tom cole to step out and be responsible. >> see, i don't know because the curt phone call between boehner and the president makes me feel that they're actually doing exactly what i was saying, which is posturing and getting somewhere. >> first of all, i couldn't disagree more. i think there are lines of optimism to be seen very clearly in this deal. and i'll explain why. let's start with this. we should expect the democrats to offer an offer -- to start with an offer that has democratic priorities in it. we're used to obama negotiating from a position of compromise first. this is clearly -- >> that's just not true. that's nonsense. >> this is the important part. >> no, that's nonsense. >> this is the important part. >> i've been hearing since the election, oh, the president has to be tougher this time. where was everybody the first two years of his presidency where he shoved his health care plan down republicans' throat?
he made sure he got it without a single vote. is that compromise? >> i don't want to get sidetracked -- i could, i guess. with respect to this, though, it seems pretty clear to me that what we're going to end up have happening here is that republicans now will come back and say one of two things. one, rip all the stimulus out of this proposal, and that includes mortgage relief, the $50 billion that you talked about. that includes all the additional spending in there. and then we can start talking. or two, let's get that $1.6 trillion in tax hikes down closer to $800 billion in tax hikes. and either way, boehner gets to go back to his caucus and say, i scored very significant, impressive victories off of obama's first offering. now, obama today can go to his caucus and say, look, i tried to get everything i could get. >> we've got to give. >> and we've got to give. and i think this actually is much more important in terms of setting the frameworks for each of the partisans to say okay, we did what we could.
now let's start moving. >> and to save face. >> mark halperin. >> clearly one of the things the white house offer is intended to do is to smoke out republicans. one of the things the president's most frustrated about and feels he's got a really strong hand on, republicans cannot make up the loss of the tax revenue, or if they want to lower the amount of new tax revenue with spending cuts that are the least bit popular. if they want more entitlement cuts, more discretionary spending cuts, if they want pentagon cuts, the president wants them to specify them. and this offer is intended in part to say here's my math. here's the level of deficit reduction i can reach. if you think you can reach the same or more with more spending cuts, you go first and name them. >> yeah. >> so richard, we have everybody playing chicken for the most part. it's kabuki. you show your spending cuts and then i'll show mine. >> right. it failed before when the president was negotiating against himself. look, i'm going to come back. $400 billion of medicare cuts is
exactly what you would want democrats to do if you want them to start dealing with entitlements. what are we talking about when we say democrats need to deal with entitlements? principally, it's medicare. so that's a huge down payment right there. you can say, well, i don't really believe they're possible, but that's a real proposal. what you're asking for in terms of the politics is that the president somehow solves john boehner's problems with his own caucus. and gives him the strength to go back and be the leader of that rowdy bunch of house republicans. that is not -- that is a hard ask for a president. >> i can tell you, it's not a hard ask, it's a partnership. and actually, as much as bill clinton and newt gingrich loatheds each other at times, they worked together to deal with -- >> on impeachment. >> to deal with republicans like myself on balancing the budget for the first time in a generation, balancing it four years for the first time since the 1920s, paying down the national debt. and you know what? newt gingrich always had to
fight us on his right flank, and he and bill clinton sat in the white house and strategized. >> i have a question. >> republican votes for that first clinton budget that set them on the path. >> joe, i've got -- >> hold on. come on, richard. you must have been sleeping or somewhere in britain in '95, '96, '97, '98 and '99 when we balanced the budget for the first time in a generation. >> joe, i have a question for you. let's say boehner goes back to his caucus and says, you know what? from the president's first proposal, i was able to shave off $600 billion in tax hikes. >> right. >> so i saved that. >> by the way, we're going to end up at, like, 1.2, aren't we, in new revenue. >> probably. i was able to salvage the debt ceiling as a political or policy tool for the republicans to use for future concessions. i was able to eliminate 100 to $200 billion in stimulus spending off of this bill. oh, and i expanded entitlement reform cuts by another $200 billion off of $400 billion. wouldn't that be something he could say to his caucus to say i
did some good here? >> i guess harold and i are really -- we have the same position, which is yes, this may all work if you're negotiating like you're negotiating on a house. you want to buy that you can walk away from. but these are such serious times. and the business leaders that hire americans that are concerned about the economy are so nervous right now, looking at a washington that has been reckless and -- republicans and democrats alike have been reckless and irresponsible that i think business leaders are just as jarred as we are, that this isn't a game, that our economy is riding on washington getting this right. and i'm concerned with a, quote, provocative first offer. >> there are three audiences here. we touched on one of them. it's congress. there's no doubt you've got to go back and understand politics
and negotiations that have to take place. i'm hopeful that the two of you are right. we could be somewhat optimistic two years ago the president said he would not extend the bush tax cuts. he got a deal and extended them all along with don't ask, don't tell, a new treaty between us and the russians, unemployment benefits, payroll tax cut. two, you have the business community which is very, very concerned. and that's where i begin to raise the alarm bells. this is not just a conversation amongst a bunch of washington insiders and washington pundits and press people. and three, you have pedestrians, americans, watching who are going to wonder aloud, is this place still governable, washington? can they govern this country? the offer made this morning, the challenge i have with it, this is no different than the offer that was made six months ago or a years ago from my friends in washington from the president. so as much as -- but understand, you had republicans also in washington who wanted to do a deal. the speaker started off saying we can go with new revenue and give a real deal. now, the president, tim geithner, others are smart people. and i hope and trust they know
what they're doing. but if i'm reading this this morning in memphis, tennessee, in pensacola, florida, i don't have a lot of confidence that progress is being made. if i'm a business owner or if i'm a voter or if i work for a large business anywhere in the country. that's what concerns me about this. >> i'm giving both sides the benefit of the doubt that they're going to make this deadline. i can't imagine they would want to make the faith in washington plunge even deeper than it already is. having said that, sam -- >> we're a step closer. >> -- check your notebook. tim geithner came to the table with something. where was the republicans? did they have something? >> this is richard's point which is that now that they have put this out there, i think the ball is in john boehner's court to say, okay, this is an absurd offer. here's something more practical. and you know, it's sort of a smart move politically, i guess, for the administration because spending cuts, entitlement reforms that you detail are inherently unpopular. and if you have to go and say we want to do x, y and z to
medicaid and medicare, you are going to end up paying somewhat of a political price for this. whereas when you look at the public opinion polls raising taxes on the top 2% tends to poll very well. so i do think there are political advantages to forcing -- >> shouldn't they leave the room and figure out? come on, now. >> no, no, no. >> there are staffers behind the scenes. >> what they need to do is they should get on airplanes, and at taxpayers' expense, they should fly around the country, and they should run this like they're still running in a political campaign instead of sitting down across the table looking face to face at the person that can help them make the deal. so the president's going to be campaigning today. good for him. i hope he enjoys it. the problem is, mark halperin, with where we are right now that this provocative offer from democrats will elicit a provocative offer from republicans, and we will then
have democrats shocked and stunned and deeply saddened. and we will be another step closer to the fiscal cliff. >> this offer reinforces what my belief has been the whole time. which is boehner is going to have to allow a vote that doesn't get a majority of the majority, that is basically built on democratic votes and a few -- enough republicans to get to 218 in the house, not an offer where the president really risks losing a lot of democrats and builds off republican votes. the president won the election. i think the president thinks he can build that majority. but boehner's going to have to believe that it's worth it to say to his party, we're going to vote on something that a lot of us don't like. he's going to have to vote for it. and that's the kind of thing we had with the t.a.r.p. vote. it's the kind of thing we've had with some other tough votes. but nas a different kind of coalition than the president and boehner together saying we're each going to offend the base of our party. there are going to be some democrats offended, but it's clear the president thinks he's
going to get a democratic bill on this issue through the congress. >> i want to say this, and richard, i'll direct it to you for a response. and i say this only as a public service announcement. for those of you who have been hearing for some time, what you heard from mark and sam, the president won this election. >> he did. >> apparently, yes. >> richard, the president won his election. john boehner won his election. eric cantor won his election. over 200 republicans won their election. and not one of them won their election and got sent to washington to raise taxes. >> right. >> so we have people that look and say oh, the president won. okay. well, we're going to just raise -- if you want to know what the next step is and why john boehner's situation is so tough, it's not because these people are smoking weed in the back going crazy and throwing things against the wall. >> that's not the worst idea. >> but because they got elected by promising to draw a line in the sand on new taxes.
>> you know what's going to happen, joe? >> that's what government's about. >> no republican is going to vote to raise taxes. they're going to vote to cut taxes because automatically, taxes are going to go up. the bill that will be presented to them that they will be voting for is to cut taxes. >> that's right. >> and so when they face that primary challenge and they say you raised taxes, they'll go, no, i didn't. i voted for a tax cut for 98% of americans. what you going to do about it? >> i love it. >> i'll tell you, that may work if you run as a republican on the upper west side of manhattan. i will tell you that will not hold water in the redneck r riviera. in fact, i would vote against it. >> even though you care about the deficit. you would save yourself in a primary even though this would fix the deficit more than anything else. >> richard, that is perhaps -- can i channel your father? >> you may. >> that is astonishingly superficial. >> it is comical. >> it is comical. >> that was terrible.
>> if you look at raising taxes on people making $250,000 a year, that is so far -- as a matter of arithmetic from being the biggest driver of the debt. medicare's ahead of it. medicaid's ahead of it. >> it's not chump change, joe. it's real money. >> no, no -- >> it's not chump change. >> you just said it was the biggest driver. it is the biggest chump change compared to medicare. it is chump change compared to medicaid. >> joe, to counter that -- >> i'm sorry. i'm sorry. do you not like the -- wait, hold on. >> from a guy named grover. >> do you not like the fact that -- >> no. >> -- simple math just undercuts this liberal argument -- this liberal argument that it is all about taxing the rich. that if we can just tax the rich, we're going to take care of our problems. taxing the rich will take care of us for what, how long, six months? >> this is two different things. when you talk about entitlements, you're talking
about a long-term deficit problem. we've got a deficit problem right now that you can deal with right now with taxes. going up on this particular bloc. that is not a small thing for the deficit right now. that's what we're talking about. >> oh, i know. >> we have to deal with the short-term deficit and a long-term one. >> that's why i've said around this table republicans should be more responsible about bringing in more revenue. but i will be damned if i will support any tax increase that is not met with serious spending cuts. and no party, republicans -- >> agreed. >> -- or democrats ever put forward serious spending proposals. and for people at home whose ears are like having steam, left wingers, i criticize john boehner's -- remember his plan to stop the government shutdown? it's going to save $38 billion. it ended up costing, what, $10 million or something like that? >> yeah. >> it happens all the time. politicians in both parties,
harold, say they're going to cut spending in these deals, and it is always garbage. it never happens. what, i'm going to support raising taxes so washington politicians can defer responsible choices on spending cuts again? no. >> i agree. if mark halperin is right that the formula is fewer republicans, more democrats voting for this, remember, boehner runs for speaker next year. can he hold on to the speakership if he ends up supporting the minority of republicans support to avoid going off the cliff at the end of the year, if mark is right, which i've got to think has to be a concern for those of you who want way deal. coming up, former white house adviser for health policies zeke emanuel joins us on set. also, the moderator of "meet the press," david gregory. "the washington post's" eugene robinson and "parade" magazine maggie murphy. up next, mike allen with a look at the "politico playbook." but first, bill karins with a check on the weekend forecast. bill. >> happy friday morning to you, mika. and it looks like the west coast is the trouble spot.
the rest of the country, we're going to warm it up for a fantastic sunday in many areas. let me take you into it. this morning, by far the worst weather all through california. i just read something that at some of the highest elevations in the mountains in california could get up to 100 inches of snow. 100 inches of snow over the next three to four days. crazy. it's raining hard this morning in san francisco to sacramento. san francisco, it's going to be a rainy three days. another big storm coming in saturday afternoon, saturday night. it's going to rain through sunday. you get a break monday, then another storm on tuesday. we have a lot of flooding concerns in the rivers in california in the days ahead. let me take you through the forecast as we go at it. this huge storm in the west, it's not going to move across the country. it's just going to stall out. if you're anywhere from denver to the east coast, don't expect a lot of wet weather this weekend. it should mostly be dry. and notice the temperatures. they're warming up in the middle of the country, and that will head east as we go throughout the weekend. so your friday forecast, really no airport concerns out there. we may have a few showers in new england on saturday. also around minnesota and the
great lakes. but the warm air, 60s in the midwest, 60s in the southeast, and then finally by sunday, even the mid-atlantic into the northeast gets a taste of that. washington, d.c., near 60 by sunday. so as we start into december, no signs of any big shots of cold air. and no snowstorms either. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. [ male announcer ] introducing the new dell xps 12.
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nice shot at reagan national airport in washington, d.c. beautiful day coming in washington. the sun hasn't come up just yet. let's look at the "morning papers." "the washington post." two u.s.-based companies confirm that 100% of syria's internet service went offline yesterday. cell phone service also went down in damascus and other parts of central syria. activists claim president bashar
al assad shut both services down to prepare for a major assault against rebel forces. state-run television reported the outage as a "technical failure." sam, take the next one. >> this is where i read, right? >> yes, read. >> "the seattle times." the united nations has voted overwhelmingly to recognize palestine as a nonmember observer state. shsymbolic victory that palestinians hope will strengthen their hand in future peace talks. both the u.s. and israel strongly object to the move, arguing that palestinians must first recognize israel's right to exist before gaining new rights at the u.n. all right. harold, let's do "the l.a. times." >> i enjoyed watching him do it. >> i'm getting nervous. "los angeles times." a new study finds ice sheet melting in greenland and an antarctica, more than 300 billion tons of glacial ice are lost each year. the earth's sea level has risen eight inches since pre-industrialization times.
>> that was a good read. you were overemphasizing a tad bit, but i like it. i'll give you some lessons. >> my posture, do i do this? >> you just want to be centered. you want to be strength, warmth, confidence is what you want to exude. you want to cluster some words so you don't bore people. >> i thought i was talking too fast. >> in my next life, i'm going to be a consultant and teach people how to truly learn how to communicate on television. >> that is great. >> you think that's what i should do? >> yes. >> should i make that career change right now? >> what would the hours be like? >> the hours would be a hell of a lot better. you wouldn't have to put on makeup and wake up early in the morning. with us now, chief white house spo correspondent with "politico," mike allen. >> don't forget, engage your core, very important. >> yes, engage your core, but not here. all right. a rising star and u.s. senator-elect from texas, ted cruz made a speech last night,
calling on the republican party to rebrand itself and embrace what he called opportunity conservatism. what's that? >> mika, aside from elizabeth warren, the most-watched new member of congress in january is going to be ted cruz, new republican senator from texas. 41. cuban-american. interestingly enough, he was born in canada, but he's researched it, and he's eligible to run for president because his mom was a u.s. citizen. and last night's speech has increased already talk about ted cruz in 2016 and the message that he has for a new republican party. mika, very interestingly, he argued that republicans didn't lose the argument against president obama over government in the last election. he says they didn't make it. ted cruz says that the real problem with mitt romney's disastrous 47% quote was that it accepted the notion that some people are rich. some people are poor.
and that's how the pie looks. and then you redistribute among them. he's saying no. true conservatism -- and we've heard joe say this around the table -- >> absolutely. >> -- true conservatism means that everybody can do anything and that the republican party's missed that message. that's what they need to turn to. >> it's going to be interesting to see how they do that and if ted cruz becomes sort of the force in this. what do you think? what's your gut, mike? >> he's already offering himself -- he clearly wants to play that role. >> yeah. >> he said last night, i'm something that's not supposed to exist, a hispanic republican. so ted cruz is one of the most interesting parts of this reinvention of the republican party. another part of it, the new emphasis on immigration. >> yes. >> the effort to reach hispanics. we have a story up today saying that already republicans are going to pieces over this. that in the couple days after the election, it seemed like a no-brainer for the republican party to do something on immigration. but now in congress they're trying to talk about how to do
it, and nobody can agree. there's talk about trying to do a big biel, cover legal and illegal immigrants, but others say no, that's why people didn't like health care and financial reform. democrats know that if you don't do the big bill, you probably don't wind up with the most controversial part, which is a legal path to citizenship for people who are now illegal. >> i would say keep an eye on ted cruz on all this because he could be the voice. mike allen, thank you very much. >> happy weekend and engage your core. >> exactly. sam just did. >> i have no idea what that means. up next, the atlanta falcons put an end to drew brees' historic touchdown streak in dramatic fashion. highlights from thursday night football straight ahead. ♪ [ male announcer ] lifts to clear obstacles.
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did you see the game last night, harold? >> drew brees had a tough night. >> man, that was rough. it's time for sports now. earlier in the month, drew brees and the saints, man, they beat the falcons. they beat my falcons. it's the only loss in atlanta's season. last night there was a rematch. and boy, the falcons' defense, they got a pound of flesh from drew brees. first quarter, falcons up a touchdown. brees goes deep, and it's intercepted.
picked off by thomas daeku. tony gonzalez catches this ball. he elevates and falcons lead, 17-7 going into halftime. the saints were trailing by four points in the third quarter. brees goes back, interception. >> oh, my. >> that's the third pick of the day for brees. it couldn't get worse, could it. fourth quarter, brees trying to cut into the deficit. this one's going to go all the way for -- interception. >> what? >> yet another interception. drew brees, intercepted five times. >> that's a bad day. >> that is a bad day at the office. also, niz nfl streak of 54 consecutive games with a touchdown pass also came to an end. the falcons win, 23-13. they can now clinch the dwigs title this weekend if the bucs lose to the broncos. don't you love johnny football? i love johnny football. >> you mean, like, how much do i love him? >> well, that is a question.
>> yeah. >> do you love him so much that you would shave your golden locks and shave johnny football's likeness into your skull? >> okay. >> would you do that? i'm asking for a reason. >> well, i know because all i'm going to say is the artist who rendered this is quite talented. in college football. >> there's johnny football. >> there's kids at his school who got, you know, i guess johnny manziel. johnny football-themed haircuts. >> oh, my god. >> johnny manziel. >> this kid, christian chavez, says he was told not to return to school until he got that removed from his head. >> why? >> are you serious? he got that cut into his head? that's not easy. >> because it doesn't adhere to the school's dress code. the kid plans on keeping the haircut for a couple more days. look at that. somebody's kind of talented. >> so harold, is johnny going to win the heisman? >> he'll win the heisman.
>> harold's getting rg3 tattooed on his head. >> johnny football? >> he's exciting. he has a great victory under his belt. who else is there? >> his numbers are better than tebow and cam newton's when they won the heisman. >> he hasn't spoken to him all year because there's a bann ene for texas a&m football. no one talks to him. he might end up winning the heisman. >> richard wolffe? how's liverpool going to do this weekend? >> i think it's going to be a commanding draw. >> 0-0! >> iron grip on the middle of the table. no one can break it. >> these are grim days for the reds. when we come back, dr. zeke emanuel joins us on entitlement reform and whether to raise the medicare eligibility age. that will be fun. here we go.
45 past the hour. here with us now, former white house adviser for health policy, dr. ezekiel emanuel. why don't i touch off the conversation by reading dan senor's piece, the death of mediscare, fighting democrats to a draw on medicare including the fact that republicans retain comfortable control of the house may well be seen one day as a key moment in american politics when mediscare attacks finally lost their potency. the campaign showed republicans that it pays to deal with attacks head on rather than run from them, that treating the american people in a mature fashion pays dividends and that calm, persistent and well-reasoned arguments can overcome demagoguery. >> so let me give you the background really quickly. i see you laughing here. >> what? >> dan cited in the piece all
the exit polls had showed republicans won big with seniors. also some other polls, they drew even on the issue of medicare. i'm not going to debate polls. we could all find a poll on medicare that would show what we needed. they did win among seniors. so apparently the whole paul ryan is the devil thing didn't latch on. but what do we do now to keep medicare -- you know, you watch the show. we talk about it all the time. how do we make medicare stronger? how do we keep it going? how do we stop it from bankrupting? >> so i think that there are, as we go forward, there are going to have to be two things that people do. the first thing is we are going to have to reduce our medicare spending. and at the center for american progress, we put out a report two weeks ago, just after the election, about how to get $385 billion saved. i think that has helped explain where the cuts would come from. >> is it all on the providers
side or is some of it on the beneficiary side? >> some of it's on the beneficiary side because we do want to have wealthier medicare recipients pay more for their part "b" benefits. but i think separate from that, we also need to think about changing the system. and i would say each player needs to change. first, on the doctor side, we definitely -- or the hospital side. we definitely need to change how we pay them. we have to get off this fee-for-service paying them to do more and pay them -- that's very important. >> that's a revolution. >> right. >> and that's going to be very, very hard to do politically, and you know that. how do we convert -- >> wait, wait, wait, joe. when i go out to talk to doctors right after this show, i go off to talk to new york presbyterian. >> right. >> they are ready for this. because they don't see the current system as sustainable. >> so are we talking about with a happens at the cleveland clinic where you're rewarded for results instead of -- >> correct. >> -- running tests? >> we need to make it
systemwide. >> the cleveland clinic model? >> i wouldn't put that as my number one model. i think there are lots of other smaller models working amazingly well. >> give me an example americans can look at. what model works best? if you could scale it from the federal government, which model? >> there is a group out in california called care more. it runs about 30 centers. and it works with medicare advantage. so it's got over 65s. it does what i like to call concierge medicine for the chronically ill. 10% of the public consumes about two-thirds of the dollars, and they focus all their attention on that 10%. they have calls out to the home. they actively monitor things. they bring them in with car services when they don't get in. >> that's the key, the chronically ill. >> you got it. >> we hear time and time again. a small percentage -- >> drives all the costs. >> -- the majority of the costs. >> nonprofit or for-profit? >> it was bought by wellpoint a
year ago in 2011 for $800 million. and what they're trying to do is see, can they expand it? but that's just one example. there are many other examples. there's a small group of oncologists out in philadelphia that have completely changed how they intersect, and they brought their emergency room visits way down, their hospitalizations -- >> what's their name? >> huh? >> who are they? >> i think it's mainline oncology. it's oncologist. you know, but, i mean, it's all about completely changing how you deliver care, and you can only completely change how you deliver care by really getting paid differently. >> yeah. >> i have a question. you talk about the overlines on fee-for-service medicine. an argument is one of the reasons that that happens is because doctors have become incredibly cautious about litigation, and they want to do as much as possible in order to avoid being sued. so what components do we have in reducing medical costs vis-a-vis tort reform? >> so not a lot. >> okay.
>> i think tort reform's important. the center for american progress report we put out had a key element for tort reform. we don't think caps on noneconomic damages is the way to go. we think a safe harbor. if you practice medicine that's approved by the profession that's driven by what doctors say is right, you should have a presumption that you didn't do malpractice. but, you know, when everyone looks at it, not a lot of the cost is driven by malpractice alone because it's reinforced by how they're paid. it's reinforced by how they're trained. it's reinforced by the sense of a good doctor does everything. >> but medical malpractice costs do drive, and not just on the policy, but on defensive medicine. >> i think psychologically. >> i've seen is it firsthand. i think we've all seen it firsthand. and i was an attorney. and i saw a doctor getting hit with a $3 million lawsuit because he didn't run an ekg when he properly diagnosed a woman with a gallbladder
problem, operated on it three weeks later she had a heart attack. she turned around, she sued him. >> yep. >> she got a $3 million reward. of course, it was overturned three years later, but that doctor was scarred. and the message was sent to everybody in his practice, run an ekg on everybody. >> right. >> it cost, what, $60 billion over ten years, i think cbo says that. >> look, i agree with you, and i was a strong advocate for malpractice reform. by the way, remember, the president was a strong advocate for malpractice reform. he wrote an article when he was a senator in "the new england journal of medicine" for malpractice reform, which most people don't remember. and when he gave that joint speech in congress in september, he said, look, we have to -- >> you're just saying it's not the main driver. we've got to focus on how doctors are paid. >> that's one thing. a second thing is medicare sets prices for things like wheelchairs or hospital beds or laboratory tests. why don't we use the market? you believe in the market. i believe in the market.
let's just open up the competitive bidding. >> there's so many great ideas. >> that's why i think we can get $400 billion and completely change the medicare of the 1960s into one for the 21st century. >> can we ask you one final medical question? >> oh, no. >> we have to go to break. >> have you gotten your brother, ari -- >> to calm down? >> medical help yet? psychiatric care? because ari really -- we're worried about him. >> he needs to talk to someone. >> ari is one of the most self-reflective people you would ever meet. >> that's my point. >> he needs less self-reflection? >> screaming. >> screaming is how he gets it out. he goes home with his kids. >> help him. dr. zeke emanuel, thank you so much. >> thank you. still ahead, the moderator of "meet the press," david gregory and "the washington post's" eugene robinson. keep it right here on "morning joe." [ knock on door ]
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♪ i'm disappointed in where we are and disappointed in what's happened over the last couple of weeks. but going over the fiscal cliff is serious business. and i'm here seriously trying to resolve it. and i would hope the white house would get serious as well. >> we can debate at length whether the november 6th election was a mandate, but i don't think we can debate the basics that it was a work order, a work order from the american people to members of congress
and to the president, roll up your sleeves, work together and solve the problems. we got the message. did speaker boehner get the message? because the message was work together. what we hear from him is all of his pain and frustration and angst dealing with the tea party in his own caucus. well, there comes a point when he needs to look beyond his caucus to the house and to the nation. >> all right. welcome back to "morning joe." >> i guess the more things change, the more they stay the same. it's depressing, you're right, harold, we've seen this movie before. this was a year ago. this happened a year ago. and i know the media says oh, it's the republicans' fault any time the house doesn't completely fold into what the president wants. but "the wall street journal" this morning calls the president's offer provocative. "the new york times" says it's crammed with democratic priorities and very few specific spending cuts. and so there's going to be a he said/she said, and i just wonder how the markets are going to respond to that.
>> it will be interesting to see, the president will speak at noon. i think you'll see the afternoon trading, it will be interesting to see how people react to that. dick durbin has been a big and mature voice in this thing from the outset. >> yes, he has. >> and it's interesting to watch at his comments and tone has changed. i'm hoping that he finds his way to the continued stature and posture he put forward early on in this conversation. >> he had a lot of courage when it came to simpson-bowles. >> for simpson-bowles. >> a couple days on this show, he talked about needing to cut $400 billion for medicare. dick durbin, although i disagree with him on a lot of issues, is very responsible. >> he and bowles say they've been the biggest voices. >> the tea party, if they put john boehner in a position where it makes it harder for him to pull them over the line, they're just pushing us closer to the
fiscal cliff. >> i'm not sure that's what's happening. i think they're giving john boehner a platform to have a strong arm on this. richard wolffe, by the way, licking his chops as you're speaking. i'm not sure what he's up to. he's thinking. >> it's breakfast. >> he's thinking. also with us, we've got sam, harold and richard at the table. also with us, mark halperin in washington and joining us also from d.c., contributor of "the national review," jim garrity. and pulitzer prize-winning columnist and associate editor of "the washington post" and analyst yew queen reugene robin. >> mark, we started talking about this last year. i've been hearing from a lot of republicans who have always been against raising taxes but have understood that revenue is part of the deal this morning saying that they are actually very surprised that the president's opening offer has now put them in a position where they're thinking about walking away from it. are you -- are you surprised with the president's opening
offer, this provocative offer? >> i am surprised because, again, it infringes upon the personal part of this, which is really important. and as we talked about earlier, pushes boehner away. i'll tell you what i'll predict. the emergence of one of our favorite characters in this drama is joe biden. i think joe biden -- >> i thought you were going to say donald trump, but go ahead. >> no, he's at costco. >> now that he's got his costco trip out of the way, he's got good relations with boehner and mcconnell. i think biden's going to have to bring these people back to the table and say look, that's just our opening offer, and get down to the deal. some people are talking now in washington about a smaller deal, not a grand bargain, but enough to get past the fiscal cliff for six months or maybe even a year to try to get the bigger package. >> so if halperin thinks biden's going to be the definer here, i'm a little concerned because anyone who goes to costco does not care about spending money. >> it's a fascinating question.
eugene robinson, i must ask you -- we love joe. joe's amazing. >> he's perfect. >> does tom cole this morning feel a bit like uriah being sent out front only to be slaughtered? yes, let's be generous, let's talk about raising taxes, though i'm one of the most conservative conservatives. let's be responsible like the media's told us to be responsible. and then the president comes out with his offer, and everybody's just staring at him. he's going to be primaried. >> well, he could be primaried. i think that's the risk he ran. i think tom cole, what he said was smart, actually, and would be smart for the republicans to take. >> yeah, if you live in georgetown. >> to take a deal with 98%. look, what the president has done is put out a sort of maximalist opening position, and the way i look at it, it gives boehner some room to maneuver now. boehner can now agree to more
and say, well, the president didn't get all he wanted in that ridiculous first offer. and we got something back out of the deal. but still move. at least there's room for that. and my view is that that's kind of what boehner will ultimately want to do. he'll want to make a deal because i don't think time is on the republicans' side. in this negotiation. >> i think, actually, time's not on america's side. and i mean that. it's not just republicans who are going to have their 401(k)s shredded. it's not just americans who are going to see a double-dip recession. i mean republicans. it's going to be everybody. jim, i don't get it. jim garrity, i don't get it because i will say this. back in the '90s, i saw bill clinton always being very mindful that newt gingrich had to deal with right-wing nuts like me.
and they were constantly scheming trying to figure out, okay, how do you get around scarborough, around matt salmon, largent, you know, the usual suspects. he's just made it so much harder for boehner to go back to hc-5 and say, come on, guys, we're going to have to meet halfway, hasn't he? am i missing something here? >> you might have thought that having known the storm clouds over grover norquist and hearing the uprising and all the fury over that that obama was going to have to give them some sort of fig leaf, some sort of concession, say well, yes, we had broken a promise, it was a really difficult decision for a lot of us, but we got "x." you know, the geithner offer of yesterday didn't have any "x." and what's fascinating about this, obama seems totally, totally convinced that if we go over the fiscal cliff, this benefits him. the public will blame the republicans. okay. i suppose it's entirely possible. in fact, it's probable of that category.
but does obama really want to start the second term going into recession again? the interesting thing, with this offer on the table, sequestration and the expiration of bush tax cuts for everyone is the best option for republicans right now. but as least under that, you can dispel this notion -- the biggest obstacle is this attitude of the public that we can solve the problem of the debt, we can solve the problem of entitlements just by raising taxes on the rich a little bit. it's fundamentally not true. but my attitude to say all right, fine, let's go with that. let's even go with tax increases for everybody. even that bottom bracket going up from 10% to 15%. let the bush tax cuts -- if they must expire, let them expire for everybody. and then we'll see how far tax increases can take us in dealing with these problems. and the answer is not that far at all. >> not that far at all. richard wolffe, you've been sitting here patiently, i've noticed the morphine pump is now exhausted. you cannot contain yourself anymore. the twitching has begun again. tell harold ford and jim garrity
and me why we're wrong. >> educate them. >> please educate them. >> where do i start? jim makes a curious point. i'm not entirely sure what reporting he's basing his opinion about the president on, that he wants to see the country go off the fiscal cliff and into recession. there's nothing private or public that this president or his senior aides have said which suggests that's the case. now, it may be that there are some in washington who think there are some political advantage maybe on both sides. i don't think -- >> could the president -- >> the senior leadership. >> -- be overconfident that their knees are going to buckle and they're going to cave as we get closer to the fiscal cliff? could that be a possibility? >> sure, they think the trump card in this is they can let all the bush tax cuts expire. but what you've seen in this so-called first offer is really just a risk statement of everything the president's previously said. while we're doing this kabuki around the negotiation, is this the first offer? are they trying to prompt the republicans to make the first
offer? what is the real first offer here? and by the way, we talk about the markets. if you look -- we can see what happens with the stock market, but what really matters is the bond markets. and when you look at how the bond markets valued u.s. treasuries throughout this period, it's low. this is cheap time for the treasury to borrow money. that means bond markets are saying we think the u.s. government, congress and the white house is going to fix this problem. ultimately. may not be right now, but ultimately they will fix it. long-term bet is with this country. >> hey, jim, how long has it been since the republican congress has voted to raise marginal tax rates, income tax rates? i'm trying to think, is it 30? maybe 40 years? it's been a while, hasn't it? >> that sound s correct to me. i'm not going to correct you on that. >> i would guess at least back into the 1970s. i wonder, could it be that the president is looking at his own victory and maybe trying to apply that to house republicans
who have been elected for decades by promising to never raise taxes under any circumstances, not because of a guy named grover, but because what they believe in their heart because of a guy named reagan and a woman named thatcher and a guy named buckley and because it is what they believe more than anything else in their heart of hearts about governing? >> yeah. i mean, you know, the argument for a lot of conservatives, once the republicans become the party of tax increases, what do we need them for? they become indistinguishable from the democrats. just a quick point on richard wolffe's point, i don't think there's anyone that's said obama wants to go over the cliff. >> you just did. >> i'm saying that basically the attitude that the bigger losers in going over the cliff would be republicans. i'm not sure the collateral damage to obama would be significant. right now the obama approach is to go hold this rally in philadelphia in allyson schwartz's district, a democrat, and somehow it's going to change
the minds of house republican. you've just been re-elected in a year of close to 65 million votes. you're probably going to be okay in which turnout's going to be significantly lower. >> hold on, jim. >> one of those cases -- >> hold on. i can tell you that if i were still in congress, i would go on talk radio, and everybody in northwest florida would just be horrified that the president was in a democrats' district in pennsylvania, that would make me collapse and go, oh! i will do something that i think is bad for small business owners all across -- no, actually, i don't mean to be a smart ass here. i don't know who is telling him to do this. i don't get it. >> the best possible scenario. let's say that these campaign-style rallies really work. and that you get -- and it goes, you know, people are going to show up to this are going to be typical obama supporters, but that's okay. but for every republican, it's the same old folks calling in saying make a deal with the democrats. now, the problem is every -- the altitude of obama is look, i should be getting my way. but for each one of these house
republicans is wait a minute. i won, too. >> yeah. >> why should i be the one who's expected to concede? >> republicans could have come to the table with something instead of just looking at -- >> you mean like putting budgets on the table every year? >> they've got one. >> every year and democrats don't. >> what did the republicans have? going to work off, i guess, what they have now, and they will negotiate it out. i have enjoyed watching richard wolffe seeth as jim speaks. it was unbelievable. i could feel it over here. you were seething. >> you really need to get out more. >> yes, mika. >> at this point what do you think will happen? to me it seems like the beginning of a negotiation. it doesn't seem like the end of the world here. >> no, it seems to me like the beginning of a negotiation in which yes, the president believes he has the upper hand. because he and the democrats won broadly the election. obviously, they didn't beat the house republicans who were
re-elected, but to their mind, if not a mandate, there was a message sent as dick durbin said, there was a work order. and so this is the beginning of the work plan, i think, for the president. and, you know, he's tried it the other way. he's tried starting with the position that incorporates all the republican ideas. and what happens is the republicans say thank you very much, and now we want x, y and z on top of that. and many of us spent much of his first term writing is that really the way you start a negotiation? don't you negotiate away some of the stuff you've given in your initial offer? so i think the president may be trying it a different way. >> i actually have a question for jim based on what eugene just said, which is just on the tax component, wouldn't it make sense or wouldn't boehner be able to sell a plan to his caucus where he says, listen, from obama's opening offer, i was able to salvage the estate
tax rates. i was able to salvage the dividends tax rates. i was able to shave off 400 to $500 billion in tax hikes that the president wanted. and on top of that, i was able to secure a promise to do comprehensive tax reform within a year. all from the president's first offer. wouldn't that be at least a little bit palatable to some of the republicans in the caucus? >> i think your word choice is perfect, a little bit palatablp. >> that's all they need. >> the attitude of let's make specific concessions now with regard for other concessions to come down the road, that player to be named later you hear about in trades. i think you're going to get enormous apt of skepticism in the house gop caucus to that. because they feel they've seen this movie before. when you were showing the footage of durbin and boehner, i thought it was footage from the debt ceiling argument. >> but isn't the better alternative which is to see all the tax cuts he e s expire? >> how will he pass the massive
obama tax cut without the house? >> i'm assuming they'd want to have a big tax cut, right? >> no. >> they would sit on their hands post-january 1st and say nothing? >> do you think republicans are so stupid in the house they don't see that move coming and say, you know what? you go ahead and you try to pass your tax cut through harry reid's senate, and we'll pass our tax cut through the house. and good luck. >> so they would just rather have everyone's tax -- i'm shock that that would be the end result. >> harry reid would rather have it his way or nobody's way? >> no, i'm saying you can negotiate in these flex three weeks about this package of tax cuts. >> i don't mean this to be directed towards you -- >> but here it comes. >> -- no, i'm just saying generally, there is such an arrogance in the media since the president won. they think that these house republicans are -- >> have nothing to say. >> -- have absolutely nothing to say. >> i do agree with that.
or nothing of value. >> they act as if they were elected by 60% to 80% of their own district. they think they're going to sit down -- who in "star wars," who was it that luke would always strike down, you know, all the -- >> darth vader? >> darth vader's guys in white suits that just would have walked into -- >> the stormtroopers. >> the stormtroopers. they were the worst fighters ever. how did darth vader get to where he was with those guys that were p patsies? there were so many of them. but my point is -- so you say to me, you know what? barack obama's just going to pass tax cuts for the middle class. great, pass that through harry reid's senate and then talk to me because we're going to pass tax cuts for everybody. and let's take that debate, and guess what, republicans will win big in an off-year election. >> no, i understand, and i don't think that's a possible outcome, but it does seem like a more likely outcome if nothing happens that the president will have a bill that basically accomplishes what he wants to and then begs them to vote
against it. and i just don't see -- maybe i am naive. >> let me tell you what will happen. and i know this will happen. it will pass. that bill, the president's bill passes the senate. >> it's already passed the senate. >> and then republicans will pass tax cuts through all and then through the house. >> what people voted for was compromise. they want to see it work. they did not vote for the president and democrats to say my way or the highway. they didn't. they didn't. they want it to work. >> i think the disappointing thing for some and particularly republicans and those who may be watching is we talk about the republicans have not given first. and i think there's some truth to that, but there's another side. you've had republicans walk away, as jim said, and i have a question for him, but jim said walked away from this norquist pledge and suggested that revenue should be on the table. i think it makes it harder -- i think we can't overlook the fundamental point about how hard this is going to make it for boehner and some of the republicans to now go back. i understand in opening negotiating thing, and i
understand tim geithner is a very bright guy and the white house is full of bright people, but i don't quite understand the politics of this one because the republicans have given a bit. so i guess my next question for jim would be what is going to be the counter, then, from boehner? because i think he has to put a counter on the table even if they think the president's offer is unreasonable, do the republicans counter with an unreasonable plan that has no tax increases but all spending cuts, or what does it look like, jim? >> the simplest and broadest idea of how you'd get to something where house republicans will be able to say, okay, maybe i can take a second look at, you know, breaking the grover norquist pledge. is something that makes the democratic base as upset about an entitlement reform program, some sort of cut, it could be social security, medicare, medicare, something in there that gets their base as irate as grover norquist is going to be over a tax increase, in which both sides can say the only way to get out of this problem is for both sides to make sacrif e sacrifices. republicans will have to go out
and break a promise that they ran on that in some ways defines them. that's a huge concession. in exchange, democrats will have this change to the entitlement reform that they once thought could never be touched. maybe there you get a solution. by the way, i don't like to characterize my position as let it burn. that sounds like something you'd see on a throw pillow at heath ledger's joker hideout. having said that, two weeks as we get closer to the deadline, maybe folks will have different attitudes towards these issues. >> the thing is, mika, and this is the only point i'm making, and i could be wrong. all i'm trying to do for people watching the show is to give conservatives like me who was anti-tax, who was anti-tax in congress and let people know how those republicans, that people aren't focusing on enough, who basically have one-third of the power in this process how they are thinking, the pressures that they are facing and also what they believe. so for years, the mainstream media has said throw grover under the bus.
they've thrown grover under the bus for years. they've said oh, you've got to agree to new tax revenue. eric cantor came on the show the other day and said we agree. we need new tax revenue. those were pretty extraordinary moves forward. and to have those two steps moved forward, you know, moving forward with those two steps and then having this proposal come out, i think it's a problem. i think the president's going to have to come out today, and he's going to have to clean this up some way. and gene, you probably disagree. by the way, gene, were you the one that said stormtrooper? did you pick that one up? >> me. >> oh, that was you. that was sam. >> "star wars" dork. >> i disagree only in this sense. i think that is the way many democrats have felt over the last several years in dealing with house republicans. they felt we've put this on the table. we've put that on the table. and they just took it and
demanded more. so not, you know -- >> okay. i get that. >> -- it's not always fair play, but from the perspective of democrats, this is putting an offer on the table that is more fully consistent with the party's ideas and values, and then let's talk about it. >> okay. except that hasn't worked in the past and we're trying something different now, i guess, is what we're all looking for. i would wonder, though, at this point on the issues that are painful and that is, you know, cutting spending, entitlement programs on issues that are painful for people in a real tangible way, why can't they get together behind closed doors and come out with it together? why does it have to be lumped on the republicans or lumped on -- i mean, it doesn't work. >> that's the question americans are asking. >> it begs the question, really -- >> fix it. >> -- it's a question that we have to be asking or at least i'm asking, why is the president in philadelphia holding a campaign rally instead of sitting behind closed doors, you
know, with john boehner? i keep going back to the 1990s, who would ever look at bill clinton and think -- would look at bill clinton and newt gingrich as the models of, you know, of compromise in the age of impeachment. but those guys did not like each other at the beginning of the process. in fact, they hated each other in '94. but they spent four years behind closed doors, you know, knocking each other's heads. they figured out how to balance the budget together. and they will both say it. the president will say to gingrich, gingrich will say to the president, four years in a row for the first time since the '20s, and the president is flying off today to a campaign rally. i'm rooting for the president. i am. i'm rooting for boehner. i really am. i want them to all succeed. i want us to avert this crisis. it depresses me, though, the way the president's team is having him perform on the national stage. i think this is a bad mistake. >> i think it's too early to tell.
"national review's" jim garrity, thank you. eugene robinson, thank you as well. your post is online at washingtonpost.com. >> can we go to richard? we need a stretcher to carry richard out. >> seething. >> we need zeke! >> no, please, get his hands off me. >> when we come back, a preview of "meet the press" with moderator david gregory. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. when you take a closer look... ...at the best schools in the world... ...you see they all have something very interesting in common. they have teachers... ...with a deeper knowledge of their subjects. as a result, their students achieve at a higher level. let's develop more stars in education. let's invest in our teachers... ...so they can inspire our students.
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been wearing. by the way, obama couldn't have met the guy in a restaurant? he had to make him come to the white house? that's some cold brew. hey, romney, what's up, man? hey, isn't it funny? you almost lived here. this was almost your place. just 3 million votes, you know what i mean? oh, you worked so hard for seven years and you were just about to go in and then you said sorry [ bleep ]. >> joining us now from boston, the moderator of "meet the press," david gregory. as we take a live look at the white house. >> did you see this? >> oh. >> david gregory, the guy that found you out in the streets in l.a. playing stickball and took you in and said kid, you can be a star one day, jeff zucker, right here. hired at cnn. that's exciting for jeff, isn't it? >> it is. it's cool. >> absolutely. absolutely. he'll do good things. >> that's all he has to say.
that's all he's got to say. >> i think we're all thrilled for jeff. >> okay. that's all he's got to say. >> wow! >> he's a company man. he's a company man. >> all right. >> no, you know, he doesn't want to upset phil. you know, buddy, you can't talk about, you can't say. >> phil gets upset. >> he gets upset. >> he gets really hurt. he gets emotional. >> we can't have jeff doing too well, right? >> no. >> i know. >> did you hear what phil said? >> what about phil say? >> about zucker. he's just turned on him. just vicious. >> really? >> hateful diatribe. >> oh, no. out loud? >> for people at home, the two are about as good a friends as you can have in television, which isn't saying an awful lot. >> that's right. >> that says nothing, actually. i've had a few friends in television. >> how did that work out for you? >> not well. >> not well at all. so david, we've been trying to
negotiate -- we've been talking about the president's opening line of negotiations. harold and i are concerned. we think that he's made john boehner's job exponentially more difficult. but everybody else around the table -- and we're outnumbered, harold and i, think it's much ado about nothing. it's just an opening offer. where do you stand on it? >> i'm a little in the middle on this. i think ultimately both sides have to get to this pain point. and i think the president's a long way from there. but he may still be preparing the ground for it. i mean, you know, we can't just have a reprise of july 2011. you were saying before why is the president going up to pennsylvania? they tried the backroom route, and that didn't go so well. the president wants to try to releverage the election, whatever influence he has, and really drive this deal on taxes. i do think ultimately, you know, he comes down from that position. perhaps there's, you know, a lot more willingness to give on
entitlements beyond $400 billion specified in spending cuts, and he's not doing that. and on the other side, if you're boehner and republicans to your point about representing their districts, they've got to at least be fighting a good fight against tax increases before they're willing to compromise. i think the worst part to watch is what we're watching, which is the annual negotiatictual negot. >> right. let's bring mark halperin back into the conversation. is there hope from what we've seen so far that this could go somewhere? joe and i see it two completely different ways. i think this is a very solid beginning in terms of everyone getting set up to look like they're doing what they're supposed to do. does that make sense? >> well, look, as i said before, yesterday was the worst day we've had so far, but i think that the missing piece we haven't talked much about is the spending cuts. remember, those sequester cuts that hit discretionary spending and defense spending, that was part of what was supposed to bring republicans to the table because they don't want those cuts to the pentagon, for
national security purposes. david, i want to ask you, if you're john boehner today, what's your motivation for making a deal? >> well, i think your motivation is still ultimately that you recognize the president and the democrats have more leverage over the tax question. that's why you've signaled that you're willing to give some on revenues. but that you have to demonstrate to your folks that you're going to be very tough about spending cuts, about pushing for more on entitlements, and getting to a place where, as jim was saying a few minutes ago, that there's a pain point that the democrats have to reach as well. it's not just republicans. that both sides have to be able to get to the end of this thing and say yes, the president won re-election, but there is nobody who gets away with this thing without feeling pain. that's the only way we move the country forward on such a tough issue. i think that's where he demonstrates that he's got a lot of fight left in him, and there we go. i mean, i think that, you know, we know how this works in washington. we'll get down to the very end
if there's going to be a deal, and up until then, there's going to be a lot of angry moments about how unreasonable the other side is. >> david, we often talk about how john boehner has to worry about the more hardcore conservatives in his caucus, but doesn't the president also have to worry about how progressives are going to act and react when they hear about cuts to sbi entitlements? these are people who showed up in record numbers to re-elect him. they think he's got a mandate. >> right. >> don't democrats have to worry about their base as well in all of these negotiations? >> well, i think so. but i think that, you know, the president can still focus on some of the larger goals and probably has more sway with his base, you know. i mean, he's got to worry about his party's prospects, obviously, in two years, but this is now a second-term president. and he wants to think about, you know, sort of the greater good for the country and making that argument even to democrats as we
move forward. look, it was president obama who, four years ago, said you just can't kick the can down the road about entitlements. so i think he wants to be somebody who presides over some big change there after he gets the tax deal that he wants. and i think that's where these conversations go. that he gets at least new increases on rates before the end of the year as a down payment toward a bigger conversation about entitlement reform and tax reform that happens next year. but i still come back to the same place. that whether it's entitlements or just even on the basic spending, there's got to be a pain point that democrats say, look, we're willing to go here, and the democrats have to be willing to accept this as a way to move the entire process forward. because i think they have to speak to joe's point as well. these are republicans in districts where they did very well. they have to be able, for their own political standing, to be able to go home and say yes, we made a big compromise. you may be angry about that, but this is what we got in return
that's actually very good for the country. >> harold, let me ask you on that point, what did you win by in 2000? what was your percentage? >> i won my first race with 60% of the vote. i was re-elected four subsequent times with 80 plus percent of the vote. >> so in 2000 you got 80 plus percent of the vote? >> not too bad. >> and george w. bush won the presidency. >> i see where you're going. >> no. i'm just saying, just people need to look at the fact that there's more than one reality. barack obama wasn't the only person who won. i'm not saying this to denigrate the president or elevate the president. i'm explaining the negotiations right here. you get 80% -- i got 80%, you know, when i ran in, you know -- actually ran unopposed in '98. in '9d6 i got 83%. i didn't give a damn what they said. they didn't call and say i got
elected, joe, with 52% of the vote, you've got to go with me. i said that's great, mr. president, i got 80%. >> he probably did do that because he tried to make social security reform the centerpiece. >> right, and it didn't work. >> republicans didn't support it. >> it didn't work. david? >> joe, isn't one of the big questions here what boehner ultimately does is a legislative strategy, not just trying to deal with folks who won in their districts and who are opposed to taxes, but does he put a bill on the floor that he knows he has to rely on heavily on democrats to pass? is he willing to take that step, and what happens to me? >> by the way, david, i want to underline the fact, i can't say this enough, i think republicans need to make a deal. i think they have to agree to new revenue. i agree to that. i'm only responding this way off of this first offer where a lot of people watching think, well, the president won, so he should get his way. >> here we go again. >> here we go again. but david, i was talking to harold about this earlier off camera. john boehner can't just get a majority of the majority. if you are a republican in this
house and you're voting to raise taxes -- and i've been there on these votes -- you turn and you look at your buddy next to you, and you go, i'm not voting for this. i'm letting you go back to your district or go on the house floor for the next ten years and say that i'm a squish and that you're a hero. >> right. >> i'm not going to take your bullet so the country doesn't go over the ledge. if i vote for it, you're going to vote for it. and that's what goes on. and it's going to go on here, david, there aren't going to be 40 republicans that get a free pass on raising taxes while the other republicans take the bullet. they're either all going to vote for it or none of them are going to vote for it. >> go ahead, sam. >> well, as someone who was elected with 64% of the vote -- >> did you get 64%? >> i feel like i have as much a mandate as harold. >> actually, harold got 80%, as did i. >> tougher district here. you know, i think the most audacious thing that the president did was not the size
of the tax hikes that he wanted or the low aspect of entitlement reforms, it was saying to john boehner, hand me control of the debt ceiling. and the reason that's audacious is because john boehner has basically one remain point of leverage over the white house, and that is when they have to raise the debt ceiling again. boehner can negotiate a semi-decent deal for the republican caucus in the next three weeks and then still have the ability to turn arnoound an demand more of the white house with the debt ceiling. as long as he doesn't give that up, he'll be okay at least for the near term. >> david, who do you have on sunday's "meet the press"? >> secretary of the treasury, tim geithner. i think he's going to clear all this up. but i'm going to take these points from joe and ask him that question. i do think it's interesting that the president did win re-election, and to the point about democrats and their sensitivities, he is certainly representing that in this initial offer. the assumption has to be that nobody's going to be greatly
offended by that and that the negotiations will continue. >> david, that will be a good one. thanks very much. coming up -- >> thank you, david. is china's economic boom overhyped? one magazine says that the future of industry right here in america, is right here in america, that's ahead. and up next, "parade's" annual giving issue takes a look at how the son of warren buffett is trying to do his part. "parade" editor maggie murphy joins us straight ahead on "morning joe." ♪ aids is not going to take my baby. ♪ aids will not take our future. ♪ our weapons are testing... education, care and support. ♪ and aids... ♪
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warren buffett is the oracle of omaha, then his 57-year-old son, howard, a farmer who works 1,400 acres of corn, soybeans and wheat in central illinois might just be the donator of decatur through his howard g. buffett foundation. he gives away tens of millions of dollars annually to improve living standards in impoverished communities worldwide. and lately, though, the foundation has also been focusing on the home front, working with feeding america. which, boy, where do we begin with feeding america, maggie? because america's food environment has so many -- is laden with problems. >> one in five children in 50 million food impoverished americans, 1 in 5 are children. i think this news really struck howard buffett by surprise in his own hometown of decatur. i think two-thirds of the high school students are taking free lunches. and that, he said, was in a town
where food processing is its home. >> exactly. >> and he basically decided, this is a problem we can fix. as he says in the piece, he wants to put hunger in america out of business, which does sound a lot like his dad. >> hard to do because you have to also look at the food and how it's made and the processing is such a part of the problem because you can have a hungry child who's also obese. and it doesn't make sense, but when you look at the way food is prepared and what is fed to these children when they can eat, it's not a good option for them. >> it's not, but you know, howard says, too, that there's no shortage of food, good produce food, in america that farmers either don't farm or harvest or is rejected by supermarkets. >> right. >> because it doesn't look perfect. >> right. >> and he basically feels that we can fix this. no farmer would let any child go hungry. there's a way to get this food into the right places. we just have to fix the infrastructure. >> and if you get it into children's bodies early in life, they will want that food. good food.
>> they will want to food. they will understand the nuances of good food versus junk food. i also think there's just really a chance that howard feels that we can all get involved in this through feeding america, map the gap, look at our own areas and just sort of say where in our own hometowns are there food insecurities that we can help fix? >> exactly. i love it. >> there are great local programs in cities across the country >> there are great local programs in cities across the k country like d.c. central kitchen, they recycle leftover food from the hotels, the conventions, and put it back into homeless shelters, schools, senior groups. i mean, there is good work going on but they need help. they cannot do it on their own. >> can you talk about how he ended up in this mission or at this place, and usually you would expect the son of the financier to finance. >> he says that he loved farming from the start. he says his parents had a
gardener early on. at 5 years old taught him to grow corn in the backyard. and from that moment he was in love with tractors and farming. he's been a farmer his whole lala life. he has been involved in global hunger and solving those problems but he feels those are somewhat intractable but he thinks american hunger is a very fixable problem. and i think the other thing is much like -- it's been a week we've been buffeted by buffetts. warren this week. i think what is interesting is both men are deeply passionate about and putting all of that smarts and business acumen to the test. >> okay. so, also in "parade." >> yes, look, who is this? >> willie geist. >> he does a q&a. >> yes, he does. >> deep, insightful questions about himself including on "morning joe" what do you, joe scarborough and mika brzezinski bond over and what do you disagree about the most? and he goes there. >> he totally goes there.
do you want to reply? do you want to share that? >> in sunday's "parade." >> don't reveal too much. >> i'm upset. i'll just say. i'm upset. >> willie. >> yes, he went there. >> can you believe it? a week away and that's it? >> so disloyal. >> i think it's great he met his wife in sixth grade. it's just the sweetest thing. >> i love it. he is just such a sweet thing. >> and they, very funny. it's an issue filled with wonderful men. >> he's dead to me now. it's the giving issue of "parade" magazine. we're back in just a moment. hey big guy, i want to get a big tv for my big family, for the big holiday. we like to watch big games. we got a big spread together... so it's gotta be big. how about the 55-inch lg tv. it's led and has incredible picture quality... that's big... but i got a little budget.
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good friday morning. it's 8:00 a.m. on the east coast. 5:00 a.m. on the west coast as you take a live look at new york city. >> i think it's time for a lively debate. >> oh, let's do it. i know everyone was so excited about the plan the republicans put -- oh, wait. back with us on set -- >> it was the president's plan. >> right, because they didn't have one, the republicans, richard wolffe, sam stein, harold ford jr. and -- >> so it begins. >> mark halperin in washington. >> a very, very provocative, very provocative reporting to the "wall street journal's" proposal that it tim geithner brought over to the republican leaders yesterday. >> how did that go? >> "the new york times" said it was, quote, loaded with
democratic priorities and short on spending cuts. i'm just curious. it didn't go well. obviously mitch mcconnell laughed at the offer. which i with would have laughed at the offer, too. >> you would have laughed out loud at the treasury secretary? >> you know what i would have said? i would have said, listen, we're all busy people. this is a critical time. if you're going to come over here and insult us and intentionally try to provoke us, you can do that. but i'm going back to work now. and i'd walk out. listen, $1.6 trillion of revenue, of new taxes, no specific cuts according to "the new york times" and "wall street journal." actually $50 billion more in stimulus spending, and no specific spending cuts. it was a nonstarter. richard wolffe, my question to
you is why did the white house decide to have this as the opening volley when they knew the response would be a negative one that they drew? >> first, they put $400 billion in medicare cuts, so there were some specifics in there. but was it hardball opening? yeah, of course it was. the question is what's the counteroffer? they're trying to not just provoke a no, they want the counteroffer. and the count earp offer is -- what is it? there isn't one. >> it looks like now it will probably come back now as $800 billion in new revenue, probably higher specific cuts. >> one extra demand, of course, which is ban the debt ceiling. that's huge. that's like unilateral disarmament. we can offer you to unilaterally disarm. >> i like that one, too. >> it was sensible. let's face it. the markets would welcome that, right? >> i think the market would welcome a more serious discussion. i was disappointed in the offer.
i think you're probably right that this was a negotiating ploy in the beginning of a long perhaps 30-day negotiation. but when you have ceos of the largest can companies in the country, the biggest in the world, suggesting that they may to a different country, concerned about not only tax rates but the regulatory regime, i'm just not sure that this will sit well. >> harold, that's what i was going to ask you. here we are. everybody has known this time was coming. i understand negotiating. i understand taking a hard line. i just wonder with america and the world, business leaders here, business leaders around the world, the markets, everybody else looking so closely at this. was it necessary for the president to be so pro-vvocativ
with something that, you know, even "the new york times" said was, quote, loaded with democratic priorities. really gave republicans nothing. >> again, it's a curious offer and i would imagine tim geithner is too smart after guy, this administration is filled with smart people. they must have a serious strategic plan. if you are a pedestrian watching this, a ceo of a company that's not been to the white house, a medium sized or small company, it has to be a source for alarm this morning that maybe they're not nearly as close to a deal. let alone if you were a ceo or have been in the office with the president and laid out some of your priorities and concerns. >> but it is step one, though, in the negotiation. >> it is step one. >> it's like bidding on a house, you always go further from where you're going to be. >> but you have to be careful when you bid on the house. as you know, you have to be careful to not start with such an insult iing offer that you jt
cause the other side -- >> i don't know. it's always worked for me. i've gotten some great deals. >> i don't do it that way. >> i'm just saying. this isn't like a house that you can say here is my offer, screw it. >> i don't think that's what they were saying. >> i think -- >> now look -- >> i think they were awfully reckless yesterday with this first offer. >> let me play devil's advocate. i do agree with what you are saying to an extent. look at the other side they're dealing with, the republicans are dealing with, many of the same people they've been dealing with for the past four years, so what would you do if you knew who you were up against, would you come out there with something that was incredibly giving from the get-go? >> no, but, mark halperin, i wouldn't go out of my way undercutting john boehner. this is all about the president and john boehner's relationship. john boehner now, when he walks back to hc-5 and he has that meeting with a republican caucus that he's having to drag to the
table to bring and generate new revenue, he now goes back and boehner faces a very angry caucus. tom cole came out and said, hey, let's go ahead and raise taxes. that was remarkable. eric cantor on this show said we have to raise additional revenue. republicans have stepped forward and said that. if i were a sitting member of congress right now, a guy on this show who has said for years we have to make a deal, my response to john boehner would be very simple. just stop talking to him. don't talk to him until they make a serious offer. just don't. because this is, after all, a party that's been running the u.s. senate for years and they've never produced a budget. if they want to offer us something serious, great. if not, well, we'll just sit back and wait. i'm really stunned by what
happened yesterday, mark. tell us why it happened the way it did did. >> it was the worst day since election day for optimists like me who thought we were heading towards a deal. i think you put your finger on the exact thing which is anything that makes it harder for john boehner to join arms with the president and make a deal is worse for the process. now look, mitch mcconnell has an easy laugh. he's a guy who likes to laugh. so not surprising that he would laugh at the offer. but you've got charles kra krauthammer saying let's go over the cliff. now both sides saying maybe going over the cliff isn't so bad. for the democrats it gives them levera leverage. everybody's taxes would go up and then you could vote to lower them on some. and for the republicans, krauthammer saying, you know what, if we go over 0 the list, yeah, republicans will get some
blame but the president will own it because the economy will get worse. that dynamic is so dangerous right now and i think the president and bane earp should talk today and i bet they do. >> or, gentlemen, and all of you might know something about this, it's posturing and john boehner gets to go back and say, listen, this is what i think i can get out of him and john boehner gets the credit for bringing them around. this is a process here that i think all of you know a tad bit about. especially you. >> can you explain this to me, though? >> yeah. >> fess f it's posturing, that's fine. again, though, the most important dynamic here is between the president and boehner. >> yes. >> and boehner and republicans who have not voted to raise any taxes in washington in, what, 20, 25 years? >> mm-hmm. >> and so, as mark said, the president has just made john boehner's job much, much more difficult. everybody is looking at tom cole now who is going to be prima primaried. this is what happens when you go and try to meet democrats halfway. according to "the new york
times," they start with a proposal that's loaded with democratic priorities. according to "the wall street journal," the first offer was provocative. suddenly tom cole looks like an idiot out there. >> or he gives someone to boehner's left so he doesn't look so extreme. >> but, again, the president by putting this offer out there just made it impossible for another tom cole to step out and be responsive. >> the curt phone call between ba boehner and the president makes me feel they are posturing and getting -- >> first of all, i couldn't disagree more. i think there are lines of optimism to be seen very clearly in this deal, and i'll explain why. let's start with this. we should expect the democrats to offer an offer -- to start with an offer that has democratic priorities. we're used to obama negotiating from a position of compromise first. >> the second thing -- >> that's nonsense. >> this is the important part. >> that's nonsense. you know, i've been hearing
since the election, the president has to be tougher this time. where was everybody the first two years of his presidency where he shoved his health care plan down republicans' throats? is that compromise? >> i don't want to get side tracked there. i could, i guess. with respect to this, though, it seems clear to me what we're going to end up have happening republicans will come back and say one of two things. one, rip all the stimulus out of this proposal and that includes mortgage relief and the $50 billion you talked about, all the additional spending in there and then we can start talking or, two, get that $1.6 trillion in tax hikes down to closer to $800 billion in tax hikes. either way boehner gets to go back to his caucus and say i scored very significant, impressive victories. now obama today can go to his caucus and say, look, i tried to get everything i could do. >> you've got to give. >> and we've got to give.
i think this is much more important in terms of setting for each of the partisans to say, okay, we did what we could. now let's start moving -- >> and to save face. >> mark halperin? >> clearly one of the things the white house offer is intended to do is to smoke out republicans on the map. one of the things the president is most frustrated about and feels he has a strong hand on, republicans cannot make up the loss of the tax revenue if they want to lower the amount of new tax revenue with spending cuts that are the least bit popular. if they want more entitlement cuts, if they want pentagon cuts, the president wants them to specify them. and this offer is intended in part to say here is my math. here is the level of deficit reduction i can reach. if you think you can reach the same or more with more spending cuts, you go first and name them. >> so, richard, we have everybody playing chicken for the most part. you show your spending cuts and then i'll show mine. >> right.
and it failed before when the president was negotiating against himself. look, i have to come back. $400 billion of medicare cuts is exactly what you would want democrats to do if you want them to start dealing with entitlements. what are we talking about when we say entitlements? it's medicare. that's a huge down payment right there. you can say i don't really believe that's possible but that's a real proposal. what you are asking for in terms of the politics is the president somehow solves john boehner's problems with his own caucus. and gives him the strength to go back and be the leader of that rowdy bunch of house republicans. that is not -- that is a hard ask for a president. >> i can tell you it's not a hard ask. it's a partnership and actually as much as bill clinton and newt gingrich loathed each other at times, they worked together to deal with republicans like myself on balancing the budget
for the first time in a generation. balancing it four years for the first time since the 1920s. paying down the national debt and, you know what, newt gingrich always had to fight us on his right flank and he and bill clinton sat in the white house and strategized. >> republican votes for that first clinton budget that set them on the path -- >> hold on. come on, richard. you must have been sleeping or somewhere in britain in '959, '96, '97, '98 and '99. >> let's say boehner goes back to his caucus and says i was able to shave off $600 billion in tax hikes. so i saved that. i was able to -- >> we're going to end up at $1.2 in na revenue. >> i was able to salvage the debt ceiling as a political positive for the house republicans for future sessions. i was able to eliminate $100 billion to $200 billion in stimulus spending off of this
bill. oh, and i expanded the entitlement reform cuts by another $200 billion off of $400 billion. wouldn't that be something he could say to his caucus, i did some good here? >> i guess harold and i have the same position which is, yes, this may all work if you're negotiating like you're negotiating on a house you want to buy that you can walk away from. but these are such serious times. those who are concerned about the economy are so nervous right now looking at a washington that has been reckless -- republicans and democrats alike have been reckless and irresponsible that i think business leaders are just as jarred as we are that this isn't a game. that our economy is riding on washington getting this right and i'm concerned with a, quote,
provocative first offer. >> three audiences here. we touched on one of them, copping. you have to go back and having served, understand the politics and negotiations that have to take place. i'm hopeful the two of you are right. the president said he would not extend the bush tax cuts. a new soft deal. i'm sorry, a new treaty between us and the russians. unemployment benefits, payroll tax cuts. the business community which is very, very concerned and that's where i'm beginning to raise the alarm bells. this is not just a conversation amongst a bunch of washington insideers in washington pundits and press people. and, three you have pedestrians, americans watching who are going to wonder aloud is this place governable, washington? this is no different than an offer made six months ago or a year ago.
we can get new revenue. the president, tim geithner and others are smart people. if i'm reading this this morning, if i'm reading this this morning in pensacola, florida, i don't have a lot of confidence that progress is being made. if i'm a business owner or if i'm a voter or if i work for a large business anywhere in the country. coming up, an american comeback. for decades u.s. manufacturing has been at a disadvantage to the rest of the developing world. we're going to go inside atlantic magazine's cover story on why the global trade winds are starting to shift back in our favor. >> why? what's your segway here with bill karins? >> something about -- >> what? being shifty? my goodness. >> you have the giggles. >> here is bill karins. >> all right. >> bill? >> well, good morning, everyone. we'll have to see if mika
recovers from that one. the west coast has been the area of the nation that's seen the worst weather the last three days will see you right through your weekend. this is a huge storm that's sitting here spinning off the coast and it's going to continue that big green blob is rain. the white house are the clouds and this is a very impressive storm that's produced some huge waves. this is huntington beach, orange county, california, kicking up to 15 to 20 feet. professional surfers love it. here is what we'll deal with as far as we go through the rest of the morning, the highest rainfall totals will be found, it looks like, in the san francisco area north wards up along the coast. it's a nasty drive. interstate 80 and interstate 5 heading from sacramento northward up into the mountains. not a lot of snow with that system, by the way. it's a pretty warm storm. the rest of the country the warm-up begins. beautiful day today in the midwest. sooner or later especially by s sunday that kicks to the east coast. notice on saturday a lot of clouds, a few showers or sprinkles around boston to new
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welcome back, joining us now james fallows. why the future of industry is shifting from china to the u.s. and he writes in part this. through most of post-world war ii history, the forces of globalization have made it harder and harder to keep manufacturing jobs in the united states. but the latest wave of technical innovation, communication systems and production tools may now make it easier, especially to bring new products to market faster than the competition by designing, refining, and making them in the united states. at just the same time social and economic changes in china are making the outsourcing business every costlier and trickier. james joins us here. good to have you. >> we've been hearing people talking about this possible
trend for some time. you look at alabama taking jobs. south carolina from bmw. airbus coming to mobile, alabama. on people say at some point maybe we'll get back to a position where it makes sense for china to actually have us manufacturer what they're manufacturing over there now. are we getting there? >> i think it's not going to be anything as direct as jobs now being done in chinese factories move back to cleveland or montgomery, alabama, or anything like that but the next wave of new business startups becomes more attractive for them to develop in california, in texas and tennessee, then in southern china. and so the growth we're starting to see is in some of the high-tech ferms back in the united states rather than in china. >> basic economics. it used to be so much cheaper to get things done in china. now wages are starting to rise. workers are starting to get choosier. >> they are. and i went back to some
factories just last month. i've been seeing the last six or seven years the fascinating thing is they're going through in it about a decade 150 years of social transformation in the west. so the shift from, say, the 1840s and england where people worked in the sweatshops to the 1890s and the beginning of labor unrest, to the 1920s, the kind of ambitious urban youth. that's all happening in china right now and it's harder to just control these people. >> richard? >> yeah. i'm interested to know a little bit more about the impact on chinese politics from this. okay? when you see a rising middle class, they're not just asking for better wages, traditionally when you talk about comparisons with europe, they ask for something else, too, which was great how countries were govern ed and more rights across the social sphere. so does one thing follow another in china? >> i think it may well be.
all the problems the u.s. has to work out and i think of those as problems, the ones the chinese have to work out as genuine crises and contradictions because they've come this far the last 30 years with an authoritarian system. the question is whether they can keep going with a society they've created without really transforming their system. they have to change their system and they can't change their system. >> that's fascinating. they have to traps form their system. we're wringing our hands over math. >> exactly. >> math problems. how much do we take from here? we've got a solid system. we just -- >> there are problems and then there are just general things you can't see and answer to. i think the chinese transition is in that category. you hope that in the next few years they'll do what they've done the last 30 which is find ways at the last minute to avoid a crisis but it will require even more skill than talks between obama and boehner. >> i remember after reading k s kissi kissinger's book on china, a fascinating world view we are
sort of evangelical about spreading democracy. china sees themselves as the center. no, you come to us. i said, is that true? do the chinese not want to sweep into europe? he said, no, you understand what the chinese want, look at the gdp number. it has to be at 9% or 10% or they feel they lose dprip on power. >> the narrative to any family in china if you look back about ten years they're better off. that's when the real problems set in. >> what are the poll outlets or ways that this country, that america can have sort of a resurgence in manufacturing.
>> the natural gas boom and things like that placing an emphasis on speed. if you have an idea for a new product you want to get to market five weeks from now, it's possible to do that better in california, in texas and boston rather than going to hong kong. >> that's very -- >> you did mention on the list one of the things that the obama administration loves to talk about which is government investment in green technologies. we keep hearing we can't concede the next decade of things like solar panel technology to the chinese, henceforth we have to invest in companies like sillinger. is that true? >> it's true, i think,a gross sense. the chinese have been pouring money into pharma and aerospace. the u.s. needs to sort of invest in this to stay even at least with the chinese.
discussing mainly small, private startups. and i think a lot of these will spin out of the clean energy industry. sustained government investment in industries of the future, i think, is important. >> i was going to say if china is becoming more expensive because people are asking for higher wages, didn't we see the same thing when japan was a low-wage country, hong kong, isn't there always going to be a country like bangladesh with lower wages that production will shift, too? >> possibly, except china is so much a category of its own. the scale is the biggest in the world. the infrastructure is unique. you want to move things to burma, you have new airports in burma, you have no ports, no supply base. and so there is a particular category that china has. they are working out their problems. part is moving to china. but, also, i think things will come back to the u.s., too. >> so, sam was talking about clean energy.
>> yep. >> and we've certainly seen barnicle talk for some time how the united states needs to catch up with china. they're making a huge investment. but let's talk about dirty energy. >> yes. >> only because we have such a revolution coming in this country that people -- i don't think people have any idea what's -- and i'm not calling natural gas dirty energy so don't kill me for this, but there's going to be debate. in 2002 we heard that maybe we had a decade. 15 years tops of natural gas supply. now it's 75 years. which means -- >> yes. >> it's forever because nothing is static. technology grows. so we're set on natural gas. by 2020 we're going to be the number one producer. it's crazy. it's mind blowing the number one producer of oil. more than saudi arabia. how does that shift the plates between china and the united states? >> it is a plus for the u.s. for various technical reasons there's not really a world market for natural gas. it's hard to export.
so our crisis can be lower than china's on an enduring basis. >> does that make our industrial costs less? >> yes, it does, for any petrochemical type products, for lots of manufacturing products, it's one more advantage that we have. and the increasing cost and complexity of shipping, also, is another advantage here. as long as any of us remember, the globalization news has been bad and there are signs it's becoming good and that's worth noting. >> let's talk about the transition to the new leader. >> yep. >> they only do this like once every ten years and it was rocky. what's going on internally with the chinese? >> if anybody knew the answer to that question -- >> i know. but you have probably the best guess of most journalists. >> i think one striking thing is how little anybody knew until the instant the seven new members of the standing committee were introduced people didn't know five minutes earlier
who they would be, seven or nine, et cetera, a sign of a general opaqueness. there are some indications of little, creeping generalizations but just yesterday a very ominous announcement by the naval authorities they're going to intercept all international traffic going through the south china sea. which if they really mean it would be hell on wheels. so who knows? >> we it did an interview with jon huntsman this week where he was talking about this and he was talking about how new media is basically going to be the flora of a very important political revolution in the country. these stories of corruption we're reading in "the new york times" are going to filter their way into the populace somehow and start asking questions. he feels strongly that at some point the new government is going to have to undertake a series of very important political reforms to clean up essentially. is that valid -- >> the most optimistic case you could make for china, which also is optimistic for the rest of the world, is the current leadership being of a somewhat
younger generation recognizes they can't keep on with this old model, that china as a society and as an economy is more mature than china as a political system. so it's time for the political system to match the rest of the country. that's the optimistic prediction. the pessimistic prediction is all of the log jams within chinese interest groups make that impossible, so i will be an optimist and hope to liberalize. >> the new issue of "the atlantic" is why the future of industry is in america. james fallows, great to have you back on. thank you very much. >> thank you, james. we appreciate it. when we come back, longtime finance executive frank savage joins us to share his inspiring success story and why can his friend, bill cosby says being next to him could make you depressed about yourself. he joins us next on "morning joe." a hybrid? most are just no fun to drive.
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his friend, bill cosby, writes this. did i tell you that prang is a generous man? you take one look at the man and you know he's comfortable with his life. and that feeling, it's very, very contagious. at times one could could almost become depressed when thinking of oneself thinking next to frank savage. one might say, why am i not like this? why are we not like this? what is it about you? >> what is the savage way? >> well, the savage way is always having a positive outlook and believing in yourself. these types of characteristics were instilled in me by a mother, a single woman who came up with twins, and she set off to make her mark in the world. >> she re-invented herself, right? >> she re-invented herself. she instilled certain principles in my sister, my twin sister, frances, and myself. believe in yourself. have a lot of confidence. don't shirk away from a challenge but recognize opportunities when they come. also, honesty and integrity. and lastly, i think she really
taught me that you have to put the customer first. she was a business woman. i was with her in her business every single day. >> so you were raised in segregated washington. >> yes. >> your mother decided to become a hairdresser, a master beautician? >> yes. >> and who would ever believe it, through this business and from her being such, again, not really highly educated but being a great businesswoman, you began meeting some diplomats, some leaders, and you got this remarkable experience growing up. >> well, my mother opened her door to a world that would ultimately evolve, but she didn't know that. for example, she used to come to new york every single l year to participate in the international beauty show at the coliseum, which is now the time warner center. and she would take my sister and myself along with her. so she would be there fixing hair, as we used to say it, and she would have us running all
around. so we were around people who were international. when she returned to washington, she changed the name of her business to beauty clinic international. she really did, she began to reach out to the international community this washington, d.c. and this was a long time ago. and she carried us along with her as she did that. she opened up so many doors. >> what did you learn from her? >> or from the world that she created that you were in. >> well, one thing i learned always believe in yourself. most of the people in my family, and most of the african-american families in washington at the time worked for the government. everybody in our family worked for the government except my mother. my mother never worked for anybody a day in her laf. she was determined to make it on her own regardless of the struggles. and that's what i learned from her. and that really actually helped me a lot as i went into the corporate world, that opportunity opened up to me, and i was alone. but i had to believe in myself. i walked into it because i felt
that i belonged there. >> you say you were alone. i mean, that's an understatement. again, i talked about you growing up in segregated washington, d.c., but also in the corporate world you were alo alone. you grew up in a segregated world. when you walked into a room and you had to know people weren't looking at you as a man. they were looking at you as a black man and you had to tear down that wall and make them look at you. >> yes. >> as somebody that was capable. and, first of all, talk about the low point. and then talk about what was your breakthrough point where you realized, you know what, they not only look at me as equal, they now have me as their boss. >> well, first, i have to go back to my mother. see, i always believe in myself. i had a lot of self-can haonfid so i never thought that i was really breaking down a door. i didn't think that way. i didn't go in thinking i'm not as good as someone else.
i felt that i was as good as anybody. i had a great education, i had a great supportive family. when i walked into the doors of citibank, i felt like i belonged there. i was prepared for it and so i walked into it. >> even though, again, you were a trendsetter. >> i was the only one. i was the first officer in the international division of citibank. most of my friends wanted to stay in the united states. i wanted to go abroad. i always had an international bent to me which started really from my mother and actually was nurtured at howard university and taken up to the highest level at johns hopkins. so whatever room i walked into, and i can't overemphasize this, i felt comfortable in my skin. i felt comfortable as an african-american. i did not feel inferior. if you walk in with an inferior complex, then you can't win. you lost before you walked in. >> isn't that the power, seriously? the power of a strong mother. >> absolutely. >> remarkable. >> can you talk a bit about how
the city of d.c. has shaped you and how it's changed? and do you ever go to ben's chili bowl? >> some of the best hot dogs in the world. >> wref, of course. >> look, washington was a nurturing city when i came up. it was very nurturing. quite frankly in many ways it was stable because you had the government there, so they provided sources of employment. >> it has changed dramatically. >> but washington has changed dramatically. my city really is new york city. >> okay. >> i mean from the time i was 8 or 9 years old, bright lights, big city. i was absolutely taken over by new york city. and i love new york city because it's such an international city. i consider new york, and i may as well be sitting any place in the world, and still the greatest city in the world. it's an international city and really this is where i think i've come into my open, quite frankly, working with people in new york in this exciting environment that i live in. but at the same time i've traveled all over the world. i've worked all over the world from japan to south africa.
i was an adviser for ten years. africa needs to increase its economic development and build a business middle class which i think is happening right now. so i've been all over the world, but i love to come back to new york city. >> so the good is "the savage way." and i'm thinking you might want to take a lesson from your mother and change the title to the savage way international. >> yes. >> it worked for her. it might work for me. i'll talk to my publisher about that. >> thousands and thousands of those that will be flying off the shelves, you can read an excerpt from the book on our website, mojoe.msnbc.com. a pleasure to meet you. >> thank you very much. >> business before the bell with brian sullivan next on "morning joe."
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welcome back to "morning joe." let's go now to brian sullivan international for business before the bell international. how is it going, brian? a guide to recognizing your saints. a dark movie with robert downey jr. that's the theme song for that. our theme song today is will we get a fiscal cliff deal done? and i appreciate the music and hopefully we'll hear some sweet music from congress about this. getting down to the wire, guys. >> wow. i don't even know where to start. >> don't stop. keep going. >> please stop. please stop. >> i had a lot of sugared cereal for breakfast this morning. >> references -- he's great is what he is. >> a deejay? you're a deejay? >> a guy throwing around references coming off wilkos
like that is aok can me. >> movie anchorman today, sullivan. >> stop it. >> so, brian sullivan international, what exactly does san diego mean in german and, secondly -- >> it's an ancient german word. >> my god. >> and, secondly, brian sullivan international, what do the futures look like right now based on the distressing opening salvo yesterday between tim geithner and republican leaders? >> mika can't hide behind the book. they don't look like much. they're flat to slightly down. everybody is in wait-and-see mode here. there's a story out that mitch mcconnell burst out laughing when tim geithner presented him with the president's kickoff proposal. i know you have probably been hitting on that already this morning. the markets are increasingly believing that a deal may not get done. i got back from a three-day road trip. i was in philly, charlotte, talking to businesses, big and small. everybody i spoke to thinks a deal will get done.
so there seems to be an increasing disconnect between sort of businesses and wall street and that could not be good. wall street likes certainty more than anything else. >> yes, they do. so are you really shocked by the fact that the majority leader in the senate burst out laughing? you do that to me every morning. >> yes, i do. >> you roll your eyes. >> mm-hmm. >> you roll your eyes. you mock me. >> yes. >> deservedly so. >> yeah. so i don't understand the question. >> guys, also there's a great article in "the new york times" about tax rates and there's a couple takeaways from this. i don't know if you've been talking about it, that tax rates, tax burdens have gone down over 30 years. but there's two ways to read this story, rate, and we have the author actually on our show, street signs, apple bomb will come on the show and will talk about the article. i agree with him about a lot of things because data is data but at the same time you can also have a couple alternative headlines on this.
number one, tax revenues have remained about the same regardless of tax rates. the government sort of takes in about the same regardless. and while federal income tax rates have gone down for lower and middle income families since 1980, state and property taxes have gone up by about the same amount. so federal has gone down. so here is my bumper sticker for you guys. maybe i'll print it up this weekend. >> sure. >> blame your mayor and governor. don't blame your president. >> okay 0. see, on that note then, joe, i just -- i know that it's not -- when he says i won and you don't like it, he's just putting out something there that just seems like a little tone deaf to what republicans want to hear. there are some, the consumer confidence, housing, the news on the economy, there are some signs that perhaps this administration might know what they're doing. is that fair to say? >> hold on.
>> so you can't say it. >> i can't even say it. >> why don't you pull a mitch mcconnell on me? brian sullivan, thank you. all right, coming up -- >> that's how mitch mcconnell laughs, right? >> things are looking up -- >> brian, thank you so much. >> so sorry, jon stewart suggests the president was rubbing it in with mitt romney. that's coming up in the best of late night. [ male announcer ] citi turns 200 this year. in that time there've been some good days. and some difficult ones. but, through it all, we've persevered, supporting some of the biggest ideas in modern history. so why should our anniversary matter to you? because for 200 years, we've been helping ideas move from ambition to achievement. and the next great idea could be yours. ♪
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