tv The Last Word MSNBC April 2, 2013 7:00pm-8:00pm PDT
but this is the two levels at which this big decision is operating. do we believe less government is always better? do we dislike government doing anything? if so, austerity. if not, can we both protect the things we do now, like letting kids in franklin, indiana go to preschool, and think big, ambitious, think mapping the human brain. can we still do big things? now it is time for "the last word with lawrence o'donnell." have a great night. three months ago, wayne lapierre said he and other nra officials would answer questions on any television program. since then, wayne lapierre and everyone at the nra have refused our invitations to come on this program every night, until now. >> the nra announced new proposals. >> former congressman asa hutchinson. >> false and misleading
statements by william jefferson clinton were repeated by witnesses to the grand jury. >> spearheading the nra charge. >> the first recommendation is for model training programs. >> training teachers and personnel to carry weapons. >> designated arms school personnel. >> which could include side arms, shotguns to ar-15s. >> allow for weapons to be carried on school properties. >> there's going to be requirements for changes in state law. >> it is a different story in the states. >> i would be interested what connecticut is doing. >> connecticut is leading by example, passing some of the strictest gun control measures. >> the bill includes a registry for existing magazines and the assault weapons ban, calls for background checks for private sales. >> totally inadequate. >> 90% of americans believe universal background checks are essential. >> there's no guarantee the nra will accept these
recommendations. >> the national rifle association is the natural, obvious choice to sponsor this program. >> i am employed as a consultant. >> this is the head of the effort, asa hutchinson. >> involved in a same-sex marriage political marriage with wayne lapierre. >> we need common sense. >> common sense gun regulation. >> if we fail, it can only get worse. the national rifle association released its taskforce's report on how to reduce a modern american way of death. gun massacres by america's uniquely, well equipped, mass murderers, who used rapid fire weapons with high capacity ammunition magazines to gun down children and teachers at sandy hook elementary school. men, women, and children at a movie theater in aurora, colorado, and a congresswoman and her constituents in tucson,
arizona. after three months of study, the nra taskforce recommendation was exactly what the nra said it would be three months ago. >> we should put armed security in every school. >> that was wayne lapierre three months ago, and here was the director of that taskforce on his first day on the job three months ago. >> armed, trained, qualified school security personnel will be one element of that plan. >> that was former congressman asa hutchinson who served as head of the dea and undersecretary of homeland security department in the bush administration, and first came to national attention as one of the house prosecutors in the impeachment trial of president clinton. joining me, congressman hutchinson. thank you for coming on the program.
we have been trying to get anyone from the nra on for the last three months. you're the first person to do this for us, i want to first thank you for that. >> well, you're welcome, and i'm not with the nra nor do i represent the nra, nor am i spokesman for the nra. i am in here as the director of the taskforce that just looked at the school safety issues, and lawrence, i am delighted to be here, but that introductory piece really misrepresented the background that led up to this taskforce and our findings. for example, philadelphia uses magnetometers for every high school student to go through, but they don't used armed school resource officers. we're not trying to change that. that's their prerogative. we are delighted with the security measures that they have in place. we want to help them there. you go out to los angeles, they choose a different model with armed school resource officers, about 300 of those in their unified school district. that's their prerogative there.
and so our report makes recommendations that are useful for whatever model the schools adopt, but yes, if you're going to use a school resource officer, have greater training. if you're going to use armed school personnel, have 40 hours of training, make sure they're trained properly, and then have many other tools far beyond simply an armed officer that will help these tools, particularly middle america, that is facing the challenge of few resources, but they want to be able to protect the children. our 252 page report provides some solutions for them. >> congressman, you made much today of your independence from the nra, so i want to go through some checklist items on that, because on the taskforce report like this as you know when you were in congress and the administration, when the report comes in, you want to know what is the independent standing of the report, where biases may be.
what was your score card with the nra? >> you have to check. >> somewhere close to 100%. >> i come from arkansas, that's the -- >> and that's kind of a beginning point on just how independent this taskforce is. the second question i would have about that, did you select the members of this taskforce, you personally? >> yes, i did. >> and why, if you selected them, did you not select a single person who has spent one day of his or her life in a classroom as an educator? >> well, i'm not sure that's a true statement that you're saying. >> well, it is. i'm going to clarify it is. there are 13 members, including yourself, all have law enforcement backgrounds and security backgrounds. there wasn't one person in there with any form of an education background or any experience as a teacher or school administrator, and this taskforce was charged with and
you accepted that charge of school security exclusively. >> well, for example, i have met with principals and superintendents and heard their viewpoints and their concerns. they've greatly impacted the report that we're producing. michael dorn is a school safety expert out of georgia that's nationally recognized. we have consulted with him. we have consulted with the national association of school resource officers and like i said, administrators across the country. so we brought in a broad viewpoint. but it is also important that the former secret service, they're the ones that were called in to look at the virginia tech after incident report, the homeland security officials, law enforcement training, we wanted to look at better training models for those that work in sensitive environment, and i can't think of anybody better, and you're
looking at they're recommending 40 to 60 hours of training for anyone who utilizes for a school resource officer, for enhanced training for them, for enhanced training if you have armed school personnel, it would be very substantial training. so that's the expertise we brought in for this review. >> i am looking at the members now. rbt solutions is a company, there are 13 members of your taskforce, five of them work for that same company. another company that is not listed on here, six people are affiliated with, command consulting group. rbt solutions is actually in the business, isn't it, of training school security officers. they would make money, a lot of money, if these recommendations that they voted for on your taskforce were actually carried out? >> well, i doubt that. they're actually -- they do work
primarily for overseas military is my understanding. >> so is it your understanding no one is involved in the taskforce that's involved with any company that would in any way profit from the recommendation made by this report if it was carried out nationally? >> i don't think so because nationally if this is carried out, schools are going to make decisions as to who in their school, are they going to expand school resource officers. those are relationships with the local sheriff's office, the local police department. >> but congressman -- >> they're training, you interrupted me. >> go ahead. >> their training is provided by local law enforcement, the law enforcement training center, for example, for the state. if you go to armed school personnel, i hope they utilize the private sector, not just a state function, generally would be state by state that would provide this training. >> and how much were you and the taskforce members paid for this
work? >> well, we're not going to provide you with a line by line. >> why wouldn't you do that, congressman. >> because it is none of your business primarily. >> if you're submitting a report to be evaluated as an independent report and you're being paid by the people who you are giving the report to, the credibility of the report rests on a lot of things, including that payment relationship. so i would like to ask you how much did the national rifle association pay you individually to do this, and are they still paying you? >> lawrence,let me tell you, i compiled this group of experts to provide the report. have you read the 252 page report? >> yes, i have, it is right here on my desk. if there's any page you want to refer to, i am happy to go straight to it. >> let's go to the best practices. >> go ahead. >> and if you look at best practices, if you look at the interior lock section, where it talks about the importance of
the right kind of locks to protect the teachers in the school, if you look at the perimeter fencing, it has the examples there of the best practices across the country. this has nothing to do with firearms, this has nothing to do with school resource officers, this has something to do with assessments schools do to develop the right security plans. have you looked at the section which recommends that school safety become a part of the adequacy standards for school education by the states, this is not money, this is local control, this is saying safety is important to the children. i have been very frustrated that we present a comprehensive report that will do something good for the safety of our children across this country, mark mateoli came as a sandy
hook parent, said i want to express my thanks that someone is doing something about safety. i wish the debate would move in that direction because that's exactly what will save children's lives. >> i would like to talk about two children in particular, a six-year-old, veronica moser sullivan, and nine-year-old christina taylor greene and your report. your report is concerned exclusively with keeping children safe in schools. that's what the nra charged you to do. that was the limit of it. and so you and the nra are concerned with keeping children safe in school, but when they leave the school, it is the nra position that those children are on their own if one of those children goes to a movie theater, say in aurora, colorado, as veronica moser sullivan did when she was six years old, she can be shot to death, and the nra will make no comment about that and make no recommendations about what to do about that, and christina taylor
greene at nine years old after going to school can go watch her congresswoman, gabby giffords, in a shopping mall parking lot and you and the nra have absolutely no recommendation how to keep that nine-year-old girl safe in america if she's in a shopping mall parking lot. why aren't you and the nra doing a taskforce on movie theater safety and shopping mall safety? >> every instance you refer to is an incredible tragedy. i have been a federal prosecutor, i have dealt with crime, i've had to deal with victims. those are all individual tragedies. how do you respond as a society to those individual tragedies that we see? you respond by law enforcement, you respond by security, you respond by addressing the problems of society. i tackle one thing at a time in life. i am tackling school safety.
we believe we made some good recommendations. i wasn't asked to look at the safety of movie theaters. i was not asked to look at the safety of members of congress. i was asked to look at the safety of schools. we have done that. we have performed that, we made some very substantial recommendations that i hope will be considered by the federal congress, by our states, and i hope the nra. they haven't made decision to accept these recommendations or not. one of them is a mental health component for our schools that we need to do better in so that whenever we have incidence of bullying or other anti-social behavior that's dealt with promptly in the schools, these are part of our recommendations that i hope will be accepted by the nra, but also will be looked at by individual schools as better practices. >> congressman hutchinson, you made reference there to tackling this problem. i want you to listen to someone who literally tackled this
problem. listen to patricia moesch, one of the people that tackled the shooter, the man that tried to kill congresswoman gabby giffords. let's listen to her. >> i immediately got to my knees and they were shouting grab the gun, grab the gun. and i couldn't reach the gun because it was in his right hand and that was the distant one from me. as they were doing that, he pulled out a magazine from his left pocket and had it in his hand, but he dropped it on the sidewalk, and i was able to recover it before he could get it. by then, the gun had been secured and i noticed he was flailing his legs, and i was afraid he might be able to get free, so i knelt on his legs, on his ankles. i did that for a couple of seconds. >> congressman, that gunman was stopped because he had to
reload. he was using a magazine that carried 33 bullets. he obtained that legally. he showed no interest in obtaining any weapons illegally. if we had still been living under the law that dianne feinstein helped push through into law in this country and that you opposed, he wouldn't have had access to a 33 bullet magazine. he would only be able to shoot ten bullets. i said publicly i blame the shooter for the first nine or ten bullets, but i blame the government and people in the government that allowed him to have those extra bullets to shoot the rest of those people, kill christina taylor greene and other people there. isn't it reasonable as you sit here tonight to think that we should not be equipping our mass murderers with the highest capacity magazines we can possibly equip them with? >> well, we need to certainly
keep weapons out of the hands of those that are prohibited by law from having those weapons, and that is those that are convicted criminals, those who have been adjudicated mentally -- >> congressman. >> can i finish? >> you and i agree they will get those weapons. when they get them, what kind do you want them to have? >> let me finish what i was saying. >> do you want lower capacity weapons when crazy people and criminals get their hands on them? >> i want to have laws that are in force. i want to have background checks that are meaningful and that means you have to put information into a system, and 32 states now are not even putting information into the system to make sure we have adequate background checks, so let's improve that system. you're wanting to reduce, have the gun control laws, whether it is magazine capacities or
whether it is the type of weapon that somebody has. that is a debate you can have. my debate, although i don't agree with that as a solution because i don't think that's going to save children's lives, i think what we are proposing will help address, help schools to address from a local standpoint, improve security in their schools, and regardless of all of the protections, all of the laws you pass in congress, you're always going to have someone that will get a gun illegally that will go into a school and what is going to be the response there. are you going to let a teacher put her life on the line without any officer in the school that can come as response person? i don't think that's the right course. i think teachers should teach and others should protect. that's an option that our school should have. i don't think it needs to be demagogued by saying, you know, president clinton proposed and
put in armed guards in schools, is that an irrational concept that president clinton opposed? that has been adopted by some schools as a good safety measure. you can debate the other items. this is an important feature for school safety in our generation. >> congressman, i'm not arguing with you over your proposal. what i will argue with you about is the efficacy of it and what we might expect for it. for example, as we know, there was an armed guard at columbine and that didn't stop anything. and as you know, most bullets fired by police officers in america who have much more training than the school officers you're talking about, most of the bullets american police officers fire miss the target they are aiming at, and as you know, the nypd has much more rigorous firearms training than anything you're proposing for these school officers, and the hopes that you're suggesting for the school officers are very
unrealistic, especially when you consider that incident we had here in manhattan in front of the empire state building where two officers fired 16 bullets, they had to kill a gunman there, then they wounded nine bystanders, trained new york city police officer bullets wounded nine bystanders. so when you say let's have these minimally trained gun officers in schools, you have to recognize that what you're suggesting is something that has a very limited capacity for success, as do many of the other proposals that come from my side of this debate. we understand that there are limited capacities to the proposals we are making, that none of them are perfect. what bothers me, congressman, you make it sound like the good guys with the gun can solve every problem we have with mass murderers. >> one point you made, you said minimal training.
if you read our report, you will see we are enhancing training. >> congressman, that's nothing compared to nypd officer, and you know it. it is a joke compared to what police officers get. >> i'm sorry, i thought i was supposed to be able to answer questions that you would ask. i really misunderstand the purpose of these interviews. >> i'm sorry. >> you made the comment there was minimal training that's recommended in our report, yet our report enhances training to 40 to 60 hours for school resource officers. you have to remember that they already have gone through what a new york police officer goes through. they go through the law enforcement training. they're sworn officers. then they're assigned to the school with specialized training. we want to enhance that even to a greater extent because it is in a sensitive environment, and no one that carries a firearm in a sensitive environment should have a minimal amount of training, and they should coordinate that with the law enforcement, but whenever you look at whether it is sandy
hook, whether you look at any other incidents, it is a law enforcement officer arriving with a firearm, which dismantles the circumstance and causes the shooter either to kill himself or to put down his gun or be killed. but it takes that officer who arriv arrives. we want to reduce response time, so they're quicker, reducing response time will save lives. >> curtis, one more question, i thank you for staying with us this long, and that is something that wayne lapierre said, the man you're working for at the nra on this contract to deliver him a report he asked for. before our last presidential election, he sent out a fund-raising letter filled with ways to i guess put fear into the hearts of nra members. one of the things he said i am going to quote to you now. he said if president obama is reelected, this is a quote, the night of november 6th, 2012, you
and i will lose more on the election battlefield than our nation has lost in any battle, any time, anywhere. now, congressman, that of course is spoken by someone who evaded military service himself. have you ever heard a more despicable thing dishonoring our war dead than you have heard from wayne lapierre? have you heard anything more despicable than that from anyone that ever hired you or anyone you have voluntarily associated with? >> let me just say this about the nra. it is a very serious initiative that they have engaged in for school safety. as mark matteoli applauded the nra for something something to protect our children. >> what do you think about what lapierre said about the country war dead, he said all of the war dead in the history of this country would not be -- the
suffering that we would have, with president obama reelected, which is the world we're living in now, in other words, the suffering that he said you would be going through right now is worse than what american war dead have gone through, how does it feel to work for a man like that and take his money? >> quite frankly, lawrence, i don't trust your recitation of his statements, and so i'll just have to read that for myself and comment after i read it myself. >> congressman, this audience you're talking to knows exactly where that came from. that's been on this program before. that's the guy you're working for. >> my task was school safety. we've looked at it. it is a serious commitment of the nra. i applaud them for that. i hope they adopt the recommendations we made, and i hope that it does something long term for school safety, and i think that should be applauded and i don't think you need to demonize someone that wants to support that effort. >> i think, congressman, i think
wayne lapierre demonized himself when he said that if barack obama wins that this country will lose more on the election battlefield than our nation has lost in any battle any time, anywhere. those are the words of the man you're working for. congressman, asa hutchinson, we're out of time. i thank you very much for doing this tonight. i obviously have a lot to talk about this, and you're the only person involved with that organization who has come here, and i really appreciate you doing that and giving us this time. thank you, congressman. okay. that will be it. coming up, the congressional campaign in south carolina and we will see what we have left in the show, because i think i blew out the whole schedule of the rest of the night. having a pretty spectacular tuesday. ♪ but i don't notice the loose rug at the top of your stairs. and that's about to become an issue for me. ♪
i'm really glad that girl stayed at home. vo: expedia helps 30 million travelers a month find what they're looking for. one traveler at a time. expedia. find yours. the votes are in and america now has the greatest congressional campaign ever. stephen colbert's sister, elizabeth colbert busch versus mark sanford who won the republican nomination tonight and made political history in his victory speech by thanking the woman who was his mistress during his governorship and is now his very helpful fiance, though even he admitted she is not nearly as helpful politically as his former wife
was. >> thank you to my fiance for her long suffering, put up with me being on the road for more than just a few months, and i thank you for that as well. >> eugene robinson, you're from south carolina. wtf here, what the what the! explain this to me, how did it come to this. >> i so love this. i spent four years in buenos aires. here is all you need to know. the charleston newspaper sent out reporters to interview people at the polls, couldn't find very many, turnout was light, found a few. one woman said she voted for mark sanford because, quote, i believe in recycling. so i thought that perfectly summed it up. to me brought to mind perhaps a plastic water bottle discarded on the app latch and trail.
>> if she believes in recycling, she's his biggest fan. di dick, polled better against mark sanford than the other candidate. is this a good outcome for her? >> it is a clear, distinct, very contrasted choice on one hand, a business woman who has success in business, hasn't been in politics, who is beloved in the community, and on the other hand, a guy that's lied to south carolina time and time again. none of the republicans, especially bostic, the most recent opponent, ran any negative television or radio. and i think you're going to see independent expenditures and colbert busch campaign and the democratic party peeling the bark off him. and it is so easy to do. >> eugene, the national democrats have a decision to
make about how much money to try to pump into the race. where do you think the outcome will be on that? >> well, it is worth putting a few bucks in to tell you the truth. normally you think of this deep in south carolina as basically a republican district and you'd say hard time winning this one. mark sanford with colbert busch, a very good candidate, i think they'll end up putting money into it, seeing if they can steal the seat. >> dick, does stephen colbert help or hurt if he comes down to the district? >> well, he helped because he is a state treasure. they love him in charleston, great for the state, through his comedy, is great to the state of south carolina. he is raising money for elizabeth, and i think he is a big, big plus. and i think she's going to win this thing. >> elizabeth has a higher approval rating than stephen.
thank you both for joining me. >> thank you. coming up, you're not going to believe this. we actually have the soup nazi, the real soup nazi, larry thomas, the actor on seinfeld. he is upset, i know you think he is always upset, but he is upset with what gun nuts have done using his image. he is going to tell us why coming up. take these bags to room 12 please. [ garth ] bjorn's small business earns double miles on every purchase every day. produce delivery. [ bjorn ] just put it on my spark card. [ garth ] why settle for less? ahh, oh! [ garth ] great businesses deserve unlimited rewards. here's your wake up call. [ male announcer ] get the spark business card from capital one and earn unlimited rewards. choose double miles or 2% cash back on every purchase every day. what's in your wallet? [ crows ] now where's the snooze button? the act of soaring across an ocean in a three-hundred-ton rocket doesn't raise as much as an eyebrow for these veterans of the sky.
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marriage equality, and one more senate democrat. that's next. and later, a truly moving story from afghanistan. a six-year-old girl who was in effect sold to pay a debt in afghanistan was saved from her fate by a lawyer in afghanistan. that woman, that lawyer, will join us live from afghanistan to tell that story later. you really want to hear about this, that's coming up. oh, he's a fighter alright. since aflac is helping with his expenses while he can't work, he can focus on his recovery. he doesn't have to worry so much about his mortgage, groceries, or even gas bills. kick! kick... feel it! feel it! feel it! nice work! ♪ you got it! you got it! yes!
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other's existence, never mention each other's names ever. until today when rush just couldn't take o'reilly's rewriting himself on marriage equality. today, another republican broke with the limbaugh line on marriage equality, illinois republican mark kirk became the 50th u.s. senator to support marriage equality, the second republican senator to do so. republican ohio senator rob portman announced his support last month. senator kirk who had a debilitating stroke last year released this statement on his blog. when i climbed the capital steps in january, i promised myself i would return to the senate with an open mind and greater respect for others. same sex couples should have the right to civil marriage. our time on this earth is limited. i know that better than most. life comes down to who you love and who loves you back. government has no place in the
middle. democratic senator tom carper of delaware also endorsed marriage equality today. coming up, what happens when a man can't pay a debt he owes in afghanistan? his child, his daughter, is taken as payment. the story did not end tragically, thanks to a woman in afghanistan who will join me live from kabul coming up. this day calls you. to fight chronic osteoarthritis pain. to fight chronic low back pain.
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medium turkey chili. >> medium crab bisque. >> i didn't get any bread. >> just forget it, let it go. >> excuse me, i think you forgot my bread. >> bread $2 extra. >> $2? everyone in front of me got free bread. >> you want bread? >> yes, please. >> $3! >> what? >> no soup for you! >> in tonight's "rewrite," rewriting the soup nazi. that was the unforgettable soup nazi played brilliantly by larry thomas on seinfeld. no soup for you was the verdict
jerry and the gang risked if they didn't follow the soup nazi's ultra strict code of conduct. that conduct was transferred to this t-shirt using larry thomas' image saying no serbu for you. it is the only product he has made not designed to kill people. his company, serbu firearms produces one of the weapons now banned in new york state under the new law pushed in by governor andrew cuomo. the banned weapon, 51.5 inch sniper rifle that costs $7,000. serbu has been publicly bragging that he has refuse today sell that rifle to the new york city police department because, quote, we have a policy of selling to state law enforcement agencies only what is allowed to be sold to private citizens in that state. and so the no serbo for you is
aimed at every police agency in the state of new york, including the nypd. joining me from los angeles, a man who is not happy about any of this, actor larry thomas, seinfeld's soup nazi. larry, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> you're welcome, thank you. >> how did you find out there you were on this crazy t-shirt? >> well, it was on facebook. and a facebook friend of mine said hey, did you see this. i looked at it and went oh, yeah, that's great, you know. i mean, i've already got a problem with people using my image illegally, you know, whatever to make money. but that was kind of a hot button issue on top of it. >> and how close was that t-shirt to your feelings about gun and ammunition control in this country? >> well, i didn't want to get complicating about this. it really doesn't behoove a work a day actor to let everyone know his politics, i am advocate of
gun control and crime prevention. you know, i don't see the point of not allowing the police force to have a better weapon than the criminals on the street. so i kind of disagree with serbu on that one. >> you may be glad to know that in fact, the nypd never made an offer to actually buy one of these firearms, so his refusal to sell them to the nypd is like my refusing to sell a last word mug to the nypd. there wasn't as much reality to this as may have appeared, but larry, the issue underneath this is also the use of your image. what rights do you have in a situation like this? >> well, it really is sketchy, you know. you might have to go to court, but i immediately went to facebook to say this is infringement on my personal rights, somebody is using my
face to sell something, and they said it didn't meet their criteria, so they refused to take the post down, and i thought that was pretty wild, you know. so anyway, i went to the post, new york post, they said we'll print a story on it. after that, both serbu and the t-shirt company called me and said we're not doing this any more, we are pulling it. >> larry thomas, thank you for joining us tonight. >> thank you. up next, we go live to afghanistan with an amazing story about a woman that saved a six-year-old girl from a terrible fate next. five hundred bucks for your deductible. the truth? at allstate, you could pay zero. allstate gives you a hundred dollars off your deductible the day you sign up. then another hundred off every year you don't have an accident. let the good hands reward your safe driving with a deductible that goes away. ♪ deductible rewards. one more way you're in good hands with allstate.
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afghanistan. the first pile of money we sent to afghanistan was all cash, before an american soldier's boot hit the ground, the cia was there handing millions in cash to rent the temporary allegiance of warlords. untold amounts of 600 billion we spent in afghanistan have been cash, completely totally unaccountable cash. how much of that cash has been wasted? we're talking cash in afghanistan here. it certainly did not go to building schools. a bipartisan commission created by congress has estimated that as much as $60 billion was lost in afghanistan and iraq, just lost. they can't tell you where it went. and you know this kind of commission has every incentive to low ball the number. their job is not to sow further doubt about the efficacy of operations in afghanistan. so of 600 billion that the united states admits to spending
in afghanistan, how much do you think was lost or corruptly siphoned off in the wrong direction? 10%? 60 billion? let's be modest. let's say only 30 billion, 5%, went the wrong way in afghanistan. that's are you familiar $1,000 per capita for the people of afghanistan. that would be $11,000 for taj mohammad and his family, and that would have meant that he would not have to sell one of his daughters to pay his family's medical bills, including the cost of trying to save the life of his three-year-old son who died this winter. alyssa rubin the "the new york times" told this gripping story yesterday on the front page. there is taj's six-year-old daughter, naghma, happily sitting in her school which she loves attending, oblivious to the fact her father had lost her
in a debt collection case decided by the village elders in a tribunal. the jerga ruled since he couldn't pay the $2500 that he borrowed to pay the medical bills, that he would have to surrender his six-year-old daughter next year to be married to the 17-year-old son of the man he owed the money to. the most taj mohammad can possibly earn as an occasionally hired laborer is $6 a day, not enough to buy the basics the family needs. naghma is growing up with barely a roof over her head in a refugee camp with 900 refugee families from war torn areas, mostly in southern afghanistan. taj mohammad told the times a six-year-old girl doesn't know about having a mother-in-law, a father-in-law, or having a husband or being a wife. you know, my daughter loves going to school and she wants to study more and more, but the boy she is marrying, he sent his
mother yesterday to tell my wife look, this is dishonoring us to have my son's future wife go to school. i cannot tell them what to do. this is their wife, their property. as i read this story yesterday, the newspaper was shaking in my hands. i was thinking i will pay the $2500. how do i get there, i'll go this weekend, what do i have to do. as the last word staff began making phone calls to afghanistan yesterday, we discovered quickly that i wasn't the only one who had that reaction to this story, and in fact, the debt had already been paid and naghma's childhood had been saved. joining me now, the woman that saved the day and may have saved the life of six-year-old naghma mohammad, kimberly mottley, an attorney that joins us now from afghanistan. kimberly, there's a little delay in the way we speak here. tell us how you found your way
into this case and then how you solved the problem. >> okay. well, basically i found myself in this situation, i was contacted by an anonymous donor who basically wanted to pay the debt off, in addition to many other donors. they contacted me because basically what i do in afghanistan, i'm the first and only international that actually litigates in afghanistan, so people are sort of aware that i deal with such human rights cases here on a pro bono basis. once they contacted me, there are a lot of really great people that wanted to give the money. i then sort of explained to them it is just not that easy. you can't just give people money here necessarily for something like this. what needs to occur is that there needs to be another jerga that takes place that in is essence an extradition
proceeding that appeals the first jerga which has already given her hand in marriage. in order for this to happen, i was happy to help, i have a six-year-old daughter, i was a six-year-old girl. obviously this story is just something that obviously like with many other people resonated with me and my heart strings. so i contacted taj mohammad and i contacted the person to whom he owes the debt to, dos mohammad. to have a second jerga done, you need to get all parties to agree, the two parties that are there. in addition to that, you need to have the village elders agree, the moolahs, the religious leaders of the situation to agree to basically having another jerga. so that's what they did. because i wanted to make sure the money went to where it was intended to do, which was to save naghma, i basically told
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