tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC July 2, 2013 12:00am-1:01am PDT
deny the validity of election they didn't win, historic legislative battles they lost. the american people decided otherwise. barack obama has the title president of the united states. mitch mcconnell has the title, too, not quite so great. sore loser. that's "hardball" for now. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. good evening, from new york. i'm chris hayes. tonight on "all in" this was the creepy looking logo for a creepy sounding government surveillance program called total information awareness that was introduced shortly after 9/11. a program to basically record and analyze all digital information generated by u.s. citizens. after it became public, it was officially discontinued and our government never again used technology to spy on the communications of american
citizens. no, i'm just kidding. they are totally still doing that. my commentary on that is coming up. also tonight the republicans' never-ending war on obama care may be nothing but the political posturing of a few dead enders but having a real effect for millions of americans. the ability for some people to get basic health care in this country. we'll show you how politics really can hurt real people coming up. we begin tonight with this photo of ohio governor john kasich signing into law a new state budget that includes some of the most restrictive abortion rules in the entire country. yes, it's another image to had to our growing slide show collection, photos of old white men working to take away the reproductive choices of american women. we saw it just a couple months ago in the house when congressman trent franks held a hearing with an all-male congressional panel about a bill to propose a nationwide ban on abortion after 20 weeks. there was, of course, last year's infamous all-male witness panel at a house hearing on contraception coverage under obama care. and who, of course, can forget
the classic iconic president bush in 2003 signing the partial birth abortion ban bill surrounded by a bevy of beaming dudes? sunday night, ohio governor john kasich placed himself firmly in the shameful tradition signing a bill that requires abortion providers to perform an ultrasound on any woman seeking abortion and requires the doctor not only to inform the woman if a fetal heartbeat is found and ask her if she'd like to listen to it. reprioritizes funding, almost surely resulting in drastic cuts for family planning group, and get this, cuts public funding for rape crisis clinics if they counsel rape victims on abortion options. think about that, you're a rape victim, walk into a rape crisis center and the counselor cannot talk about abortion with you at the risk of cutting off the funding for the organization. and as ohio state senator nina turner told me on friday night, all this was added to the budget at the very last moment. no hearings.
no debate. >> they put provisions in like thieves in the night, like cowards that they are. they didn't even have the decency to have their anti-woman legislation stand alone so we can debate it. >> those some of the strictest in the country, they're now the law in ohio. this particular chapter in ohio is over, and the fate of the ohio governor and lawmakers will be left to the voters of ohio. the battle in texas, however, is just entering its dramatic third act. today, thousands of people lined up around the texas state capitol to make their presence known on the first day of the special legislative session called by governor perry. his attempt to ram through a restrictive abortion bill republicans were not able to pass last week thanks to state senator wendy davis' epic and now famous filibuster. actually quite a star-studded event in the capital. natalie maines of the dixie chicks was on the stairs singing her anthem "not ready to make nice."
stephanie march showed up to give texas lawmakers a piece of her mind. >> the idea, the idea that anyone has the right to tell me what to do with my body, particularly a politician, is ludicrous. make no mistake, if we were here to pass a bill today legislating what men could do with their penises, they'd lose their minds. i said it. >> state representative senfronia thompson led the crowd with a booming chant of women will not be bullied. leticia vande de putte took a crucial role. and it was wendy davis' turn to thank the crowd that literally carried her over the finish line during her 11-hour filibuster and once again she took aim straight at governor rick perry. >> let's remind governor perry that fairness is and always will be a fundamental texas value.
texans deserve someone who will stand up for them and their values. it shouldn't be unusual for a public official to stand and fight for the men and women who elected them. elected them. it should be a job requirement. >> now, truly inspiring protests aside, texas observers are already saying that texas republicans have learned their lesson from last week and will figure out a way to get the restrictive abortion bill passed. that may be so. you know, i look at pictures of thousands of people on the steps of the capitol on a monday at noon fighting in a state that has had a -- democrat party for so, so long. i'm reminded of an organizer saying you can't win if you don't fight. joining me leticia van de putte. were you surprised by the
turnout at noon on a monday on the steps of the capitol? >> in the texas heat in july, we thought there may be a couple hundred people, maybe 1,000. but over 6,000 showed up outside and probably another 2,000 inside. we have never seen anything like this in texas government. >> so here's my question to you. there are people on the other side of this issue, and the governor is one of them, lieutenant governor dewhurst is basely saying, okay, this is a very vocal minority, we're in texas after all. these people elected us, governor and lieutenant governor. they gave us big majorities in both houses. all these rallies, all these folks. lieutenant governor dewhurst. the vast majority of texans are behind this legislation and want to see us get it done in this
special session. >> i think he's really confused. what he is failing to recognize is that the majority of the people there today weren't our activist democrats. in fact, i wish they were. these were people who said, enough is enough, and particularly women and the men who support the women in their lives. i mean, what's happened with texas republicans is that they only pander to those that are going to vote in the republican primary, forgetting the majority of texans. >> so here's my question. today the senate was put into session and then recessed i believe until july 9th. there's going to be house hearings tomorrow if i'm not mistaken. everyone is saying, i want to read you lieutenant governor dewhurst's point on this. we're not going to get it back in the house within filibuster range. we're going to make sure we've got plenty of time and no human being can talk for two weeks.
they seem to have a game plan where they think there's nothing that you or wendy davis or anyone else can do to stop this bill from getting passed. >> they have a game plan, all right. the first play in that playbook is limit public testimony. tomorrow in the house, it's now a new number because we're a new special session. so it's house bill 2 and they're going to start testimony at 3:30 in the afternoon but end testimony right at midnight. and so play number one is stop the public from voicing their opinion which has never been done. >> so i want to remind folks of how this all got kicked off. there was a kind of people's testimony that happened around these bills before the wendy davis filibuster in which activist came from all over the state, drove in from miles and gave their testimony, how it would close down clinics around the state, particularly in remote areas where people won't have access to this kind of care.
they talked and talked and the republican chair tried to shut them down. they yelled back. that was the spark of when happened. you're saying tomorrow they learned their lesson and going to truncate how many voices are heard in that hearing? >> that's correct. so the way you get things through in a very quick manner, even in a 30 day special session, is you don't let the public speak. so they know that there are thousands of people that are going to show up. so in their playbook, the new rules are we'll start at 3:30 and, oh, by the way, we're going to end until midnight, when so many of the house hearings last well into the morning during the regular session. so what they can't get done in a normal manner, they're going to shut out all rules and do anything to pass these bills. >> so all eyes tomorrow, then, on this house hearing, and i imagine activists and other folks and regular people who are on steps today are preparing themselves to show up to testify. it's going to be a big question about whether they gavel that close at midnight tomorrow night.
>> i think they're going to gavel, but what they don't understand, these aren't just activists. i mean, i recognize some people, but these are just folks who through the internet, and because of the press, has seen what this horrible agenda is. attacking women. demeaning women. and endangering them in their health care. >> texas state senator leticia van de putte. thanks for your time. >> thanks. joining me now, connie schultz based in ohio. connie, my first question, looking at texas and uprising it sparked there, do you feel like ohio republicans got away with something this weekend? >> they sure did. it was so outrageous a number of newspapers editorialized against, which you've don't see a lot here in ohio. and said they had no business doing this and kasich should have vetoed it. of course he didn't. that was some photo, wasn't it? >> it was an amazing photo. the thing i find jaw dropping about it, when you talk about abortion politics in this
country, it's the case, gender breakdowns on polling a lot of this is remarkably equal often. many women believe abortion is horrible, evil, it's murder, et cetera. yet the people engineering these bills can never quite seem to understand to maybe find some of their women colleagues to include in these photos. >> it's so insulting to ohio's women. this was an arrogance, and i would take it further, this was a disdain for women. and when you look at what unfolded and you look at that pick her, what that telegraphs to all of the women in ohio is they don't care what we think. kasich thinks he can win with his majority of male voters in popularity poll and ignore women's rights and get away with it and get re-elected. this is about sex, power, and imposing their morality on all
the rest of us. i tell you, i had a lot of conversations today with leadership, both with ohio naral, with kelly copeland, then with stephanie, excuse me, at planned parenthood, and it's so clear that they're right now just trying to figure out what exactly they're going to be able to do to challenge these laws. you know, they sneak them in, in a budget bill. there's no debate. it sounds very similar to texas. i was just listening to the senator. >> right. >> it's very secretive. now the challenge is how do we let everyone know about this? how -- i am convinced that a lot of voters, particularly women in ohio, have no idea yet what happened. >> you know, that's exactly my question because the way this all got passed, using it, putting it in the budget, going through the budget process, not having big hearings on this, and the fact this was a deal with the devil that kasich made with the kind of right-wing base of the republican party. my question to you is, how many ohio voters wake up today knowing what just -- i mean, when i read the details, you
have a woman who's in front of you in a rape crisis center and having a conversation with her, and if you talk about abortion, you could look at your funding get cut. that's generally draconian. >> yes, stephanie kite and i were talking about that today. the thing that a lot of people don't know yet is potentially 13 counties could be, could lose the only family planning clinics they have. we're not talking about planned parenthood clinics but other clinics that provide the only family services to women in the entire county and could lose it because of the cuts in funding. this is big. also, you know, i've been wondering this today. where are the doctors? not the doctors who provide abortion services. where are the podiatrists and oncologists and every other kind of doctor? what the governor has signed into law is that it's okay now to provide an actual script for a doctor to read to his patient. that's how interventionist this is. >> yeah. >> that they're telling -- the good news is, what a lot of people don't understand about this bill is the doctor can -- we'll have to read that script. he or she will have to read the script.
but then he or she can go on to explain what he or she actually thinks is happening. >> well, there's also, i mean, i was reading some of the coverage today. there's some question about legal avenues challenged, because that sounds tremendously like compelled speech to me which is in constitutional dicey territory along with other parts of this bill. columnist connie schultz. thank you for your time tonight. >> thanks. coming up, republicans take aim at barack obama and hit working people with no health insurance.
if you thought republicans were satisfied having cast dozens of symbolic votes to repeal obama care, you should know the fight against health reform is shifting to new ground. we have officially arrived at the kitchen sink stage of the battle complete with criminal sidewalk chalking and firmly worded letters to the nfl. the bizarre new battle over obama care implementation is next. plus the day after george zimmerman shot trayvon martin in sanford, florida, he learned to the scene of the shooting with police. that visit was captured on tape and was played in court today. it's a narrative that is both gripping and chilling. that's coming up.
if the competition for america's worst governor for a sport that could be wagered on, i'd be putting a lot of money on pennsylvania's tom corbett. now, he's not a brand-name favorite like rick perry or texas or rick scott of florida or an unknown like paul lepage of maine. he is quietly making his run for america's worst governor thanks to stories like this one. the arrest of an activist whose crime was drawing a message in chalk outside the governor's mansion last week. the police citation indicates a.j. marin was charged with disorderly conduct and states "the above did engage in an
action that served no legitimate purpose and that he did write derogatory remarks about the governor on the sidewalk." and here are those remarks. so derogatory and disrespectful they prompted the arrest of this man. you may want to send young children out of the room. he wrote, i'm quoting here directly, "corbett has health care, we should, too." sorry you had to see that, america. people are clearly angry. i mean, this message was written against corbett's latest move in america's worst governor competition. corbett exposes the expansion of medicaid to cover uninsured pennsylvanians under obama care. in doing so, his state, pennsylvania, will walk away from $4 billion for the next 3 years and leave an estimated 700,000 residents without state-provided health insurance. if you were to sketch the worst caricature of a republican, you'd describe him as --
finally getting affordable health insurance purely out of spite. yet here we are with republicans in 21 states and 6 still up in the air looking to deny low-income residents federally funded health coverage. it's not just at the state level. in the senate, mitch mcconnell and john cornyn are sending letters to professional sports leagues like the nfl and nascar telling them not to cooperate with any promotion about upcoming health care implementation warning the leagues against taking sides on obama care. we are seeing an entire national party dedicated to a form of sabotage. the intent of which is to make sure that the ordinary working people have a hard time getting health insurance. that's it. i mean, think about how perverse that is. we're the republican party and we're here to break things. they're not just playing politics. they are playing with people's lives. joining me now is nicole lamoureux, executive director of the national association of free and charitable clinics.
msnbc has partnered with the nasc for a one day free clinic in new orleans this wednesday july 3rd. nicole, my first question for you is for these folks, say the 700,000 pennsylvanians who are making between the federal poverty line for a family of four, around $25,000, and 133% of that which is what the medicaid expansion would apply to, those are folks making around $32,000 a year. family of four. >> right. >> what -- what does it mean to them that they are not going to be eligible for medicaid? >> basically what it means it is they're not going to get access to the much needed health care they need. basic things like a physical, testing for diabetes. things we take for granted. you know, one thing we find all across the country is those people who are healthy take their health for granted. those people that are going to be excluded from medicaid expansion need this help and they're being ignored because people are playing politics with people and that's ridiculous. >> and this is precisely, i mean, i think we should note here this is precisely the kind
of strata that is most likely in terms of income to be uninsured, right? more people are covered by medicaid as it currently exists. people making a fair amount of money and have jobs that give them benefits are covered. it's precisely these people who the law was intended to help that are going to be pushed out of the help they were supposed to get. >> exactly. you know, one of the things we see across the country is that 83% of the people who come to free and charitable clinics come from a working household. let's throw out that rhetoric that they're lazy. these are people who are supposed to be getting this care and being ignored and pushed aside. >> my question for you is when you see folks coming into these clinics, the people who use your services, who are in a situation the way they're getting health care, going to a free clinic such as yours, is there an awareness of this law that's coming, if it's implemented properly, could do a lot for their lives? is there awareness of it or a
disconnect between precisely the people this law should be helping and the law, itself? >> there's a complete disconnect. i think that people understand it in theory only. that's why these clinics are so very important. so we can educate them on what is going to be happening in the next couple of years. really, people get confused. that's what the republicans are doing right now. they're just confusing the people who need this health care the most. that's why these clinics are so very important. not only do we get them health care, but we educate them as well. >> explain to me how that confusion plays out. what are the stakes of someone being confused about this law if they're someone who's making $28,000 and doesn't have health insurance? >> well, quite frankly what happens is that many of the people that we're going to see in new orleans haven't been to the doctor in over five years. think about that for a second. that means they're foregoing the testing that they need. we have people who are going it to have a heart attack on our floor because they couldn't afford health care and didn't know they could in the future under the affordable care act. that's absolutely ridiculous.
we're saying to them, you do not matter by these republican governors saying they're not going to expand medicaid. health care should be a right. it should not be a privilege. >> when obama care is up and running, i mean, i'm asking you as someone who delivers health care to folks that need it every day. are you -- my hope is that you are put out of business. i wonder whether you think you will be. >> you know, i have to tell you, across the country, the 1,200 free and charitable clinics would love to go out of business. unfortunately we know we're not going to go out of business. then in these states that are not expanding their medicare programs. we're still going to be here. since the 1960s we've been standing in the gap of providing health care to those who don't have it. some day we hope we will be able to go out of business. >> nicole lamoureux, i hope so. msnbc is sponsoring the one day free clinic in new orleans this weekend.
these clinics are only made possible by our viewers, so we thank you in advance. there was a surveillance program under george w. bush that was so creepy that once people found out about it, it was officially discontinued. by officially discontinued, i mean officially moved to a secret budget and continued. i'll explain next.
obama and his family in africa, so, too, is george bush along with his wife, laura. the couple were renovating a health clinic in zambia, when they decided to gift us all with rare post-retirement face time. president bush took the opportunity to weigh in on the massive domestic surveillance scheme known as prism that began under his watch and remained secret until last month when information about the program leaked by edward snowden was published by "the guardian" and the "washington post." >> put the program in place to protect the country, and one of the certainties is civil liberties were guaranteed. so i'm pretty comfortable with it. i did what i did. i know the spirit in which i did it. >> prism program, in which the nsa is able to collect and search americans' internet data did, indeed, begin during the bush administration. the program's ancestry is both fascinating and infuriating. the roots of prism stretch all the way back to a program called total information awareness. now, if that name rings a bell, it should, because when it was
proposed in the wake of 9/11, it got a huge amount of press. total information awareness was the brain child of john poindexter who got his conviction in the iran/contra overturned on appeal. it was a data mining program, access all sorts of digital information from just about anywhere. the idea was that a potential terrorist would leave a digital trail bullet in order to find that trail you had to collect all of the digital information there was. from anywhere and everywhere that you could find it. and the program had this creepy logo of a pyramid with this all seeing eye looking down on earth. i mean, look at this thing. if you were to ask alex jones to design a logo to make every single neuron in his conspiratorial brain fire, this would be it. it's almost as if the government was trying to control conspiracy theorists. total information awareness was creepy enough that it didn't just set off alex jones of the world. there's a huge backlash against the idea of just collecting
everyone's data from left, right and center. it sounded to a lot of folks like the kind of data mining that treats everyone in america as a potential terrorist suspect. so congress stepped in and used the 2004 defense appropriations bill to defund total information awareness. but that was not the end of the story. because allowing a program that's being rejected by the american citizenry to die off is not the only option when you happen to be working on surveillance. option number two is just doing it anyway but secretly. listen to journalist shane harris, one of the best source reporters in world on the nsa, describe what happened in the wake of the backlash after total information awareness was defunded. >> tia would be, as they say, defunded from the defense budget, but all the money for it would be moved over to the classified side of the budget, the black budget as it's often called. and it was disbanded in name and all the various components of
the research program were separated, were given new cover names, and almost all of them were then shifted over to the management and control of the national security agency. which unbeknownst to everyone in america, most people in america at the time, had been running its own total information awareness program. so tia is shut down publicly and privacy advocates really declared a great victory for this. unbeknownst to them, the work just continued in secret at the nsa and became part of this larger vast surveillance apparatus we're learning about now. >> or in other words, the beginning of what would essentially become prism, the formerly secret data mining program we're just now learning about. in the uproar of prism and nsa revelations, there's been a tendency to focus on privacy concerns. is the government reading my facebook messages? but i think that's a mistake because quite frankly, well, in that sense, no one really has privacy anymore to begin with. most of us have willingly handed over all of our information to google or whatever other software company has us sign in
with every little bit of information about ourselves. no, the real problem, the real problem for all of us isn't the privacy concern, it's the secrecy. the problem is we didn't know about this. we didn't sign off on it. because secrecy acts in this very insidious way to insulate the government from the most basic kind of democratic accountability. when barack obama proposed the affordable care act, there were lots of people that freaked out about it. talked about death panels and being on the slippery slope to socialized medicine. because people didn't like it, the president didn't have the option to just take the affordable care act and move it into the black budget. he wasn't able to say, well, people don't like my idea so we're going to set up the insurance exchanges in secret with secret money. because that's not the way democracies work. nothing in the domestic sphere operates under those principles. you have to have the argument with people. convince them that you're right or face the consequences. those are the basic ground rules for self-governance. and it is incredibly toxic to any democracy to have this other
channel you can switch to whenever you might lose the argument. i'm not concerned by what the nsa is doing because i think they might read my facebook messages. i'm concerned because the nsa is spending billions of dollars doing all sorts of stuff that i as a united states citizen never really got to sign off on. democracies can and must be able to have secrets, and in fact, all democracies do. but what decent, functioning democracies worthy of the name cannot have are huge, multibillion dollar programs and bureaucracies and laws and legal frameworks and authorizations that are all invisible to their citizens. justice may be blind. citizens cannot be. we'll be right back with #click3.
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three awesomest things on the internet today beginning with a pretty serious payday for a former public servant. time now to check in with four star general david petraeus. following an extramarital affair with his biographer and time away from the spotlight, petraeus agreed to take a gig as visiting professor of public policy at the city university of new york, a public college. adjunct professors typically earn less than $3,000 per course. as gawker found out, david petraeus will be making slightly more than that. $200,000 for one course. he'll work about three hours a week with the help of a group of graduate students to take care of course research, administration and grading. that works out to approximately $2,250 per hour. terrific news for david petraeus, slightly less terrific news for the number crunchers. as a spokesperson tells gawker, the university is in the process of fund-raising for this position. the second awesomest thing on the internet today, the chance for add venturers to make their mark. google street view capturing the world one intersection at a time.
what about the far flung hard to reach places? travelers heads out to remote locations can borrow one of google's trekker devices, a backpack equipped with a camera to capture a 360 degree view of the surroundings. those will help the rest of us get an up-close look at a volcano, cave or rainforest. on the downside, they will look only slightly cooler than al franken and his one-man satellite uplink. the third awesomest thing on the internet today, a reminder no matter how great your weekend was, no more amazing than jennifer lopez. there were backup dancers and costume changers on the stage. lopez traveled all the way to the country of turkmenistan to sing happy birthday to its president gurbanguly berdymukhamedov. the guy likes jennifer lopez and presides over the most impressive government in the world.
j-lo's publicist says it was vetted by lopez's representatives. had there been knowledge of human rights issues of any kind, jennifer would not have attended if only there's some device you can type in a guy's name and find out all the terrible things he's responsible for. however, all is not lost. as one twitter user put it, on the bright side, gigli's no longer the worst thing she's done. beyonce did sing at a new year's eve bash entertaining the family of moammar gadhafi and elton john performed at fourth wedding of rush limbaugh. find all the links for tonight's #click3 on my website, allinwithchris.com. we'll be right back.
day six of testimony in the george zimmerman trial brought us a truly riveting narrative from the mouth of george zimmerman, himself, in the form of multiple recorded interviews. zimmerman is charged with second-degree murder in the killing of trayvon martin. he pleaded not guilty claiming self-defense. officer doris singleton read a statement written by zimmerman in which zimmerman refers to trayvon martin as the suspect. >> in a darkened area of the sidewalk, as the dispatcher was asking me for exact location, the suspect emerged from
darkness and circled my vehicle. >> and that statement zimmerman repeatedly uses the word "suspect" to refer to trayvon martin and prosecutor bernie de la rionda asked officer singleton about this. >> he uses the word "suspect" to refer to trayvon martin. have you uttered those words or have you informed him in any way that's the word he's supposed to use to refer to trayvon martin? >> no. >> whatever happened, whatever ensued between those two men, that man and that boy, whatever the legal determination of this jury is whether zimmerman's actions meet the legal environment for second-degree murder. in george zimmerman's eyes, the person walking around was a suspect. in a recording of a lengthy interview between zimmerman and officer singleton was played at trial today. here's part of it. >> you've never seen this guy before? >> i don't recall. it's always dark. they always come around nighttime. >> the videotape of lead investigator chris serino's
interview with george zimmerman the day after the killing of trayvon martin, the scene of the death was also played for jurors the other day. here's part of it in which zimmerman explains the moments of the altercation with trayvon martin. >> my jacket moved up. i had my firearm on my right side hip. my jacket moved up and he saw it. i feel like he saw it. he looked at it. he said, you're going to die tonight, [ bleep ]. and he reached for it but he reached, like, i felt his arm going down my side, and i grabbed it and i just grabbed my firearm and i shot him. one time. yes, sir, he was on top of me like this. i shot him. and i didn't think i hit him because he sat up and he said, you got me. you got it. you got me. something like that. so i thought he was just saying, i know you have a gun now, i heard it, i'm giving up. so i don't know if i pushed him off me or he fell off me. either way, i got on top of him and i pushed his arms apart.
>> joining me now is michael eric dyson, msnbc political analyst and professor of sociologist at georgetown university. karen desoto. and danielle cadet, editor for "huffington post black voices." good to have you here. it was really riveting watching george zimmerman in various incarnations, being debriefed by a police officer, by serino, doing this walk and talk where he's sort of describing it. one question just strategically, in terms of a trial law question. >> okay. >> karen, if you're the prosecution, it basically amounted weirdly to watching george zimmerman testify about the events that night. it felt like this bizarre one-sided situation in which there's a thing that happened between two men, one of whom is dead, the other one shot him, and he is one there in court describing what happened. why would the prosecution of all people be flaying all that tape? >> it's actually very uncommon to have statements and video. normally that doesn't happen in a criminal case. you don't get that information.
there's always inconsistencies between videotape, multiple statements. that's one thing you want to show, what he said on one day is different from what he said on the next. that's definitely why the prosecutor was bringing that up. >> they were pointing out, obviously the prosecution was pointing out ways in which the story was changing. every time he talks about trayvon martin -- i just saw "white house down" this weekend. it was awesome, by the way, like, really incredible. every word out of this character, trayvon martin, sounds like some action movie villain, like tonight's the night you're going to die, and you got me. there's another point where he pops out of the darkness and says, you got a problem? you got a problem now. all these zingy movie-esque statements. >> if you're talking about a 17-year-old boy from miami, this doesn't sound -- he doesn't sound like he would talk like this. nobody really sounds like --
>> that's the point. >> after getting shot, saying, you got me. you've watched one too many superhero movies or one too many thug movies. just when he said that, that struck me as extremely odd because what individual gets slot and all of a sudden says, you got me? i don't think that would be the first thing that would come out of anybody's mouth. >> absolutely. the point is, first of all, according to his friend, rachel, he was creepy cracker. >> right. >> now he switches to vertigo, you got me. he switches genre. we're the figments of imagination of people with dark intent. george zimmerman proves a set of beliefs we've been arguing about for the plast 10, 15 year, about stereotyping, profiling, becomes material. >> that's precisely what's before the jury. we should be clear here. the judge ruled pretrial that specifically invoking the term racial profiling is out of bounds. you can use profiling but not racial profiling. the sub text, of course, after all of this, why is george
zimmerman so obsessed with this kid and tracking him? the reason that's materially relevant to getting a conviction is right, karen, because of what the burden of proof is, this prosecution, for this very high charge of second-degree murder. >> exactly. i think that's what a lot of people don't understand. the prosecutor decided to go with the second-degree murder. not manslaughter. when you're talking about the standard which is an unlawful killing of a human being perpetrated by any act, imminently dangerous, and here's the kicker, evidence of a depraved mind. depraved mind beyond a reasonable doubt is extremely high standard. depraved means perverted intent. evil. corrupt. that's a very high standard. i don't think people really understand that's the instruction the jurors are going to get. >> yeah, and it's difficult, i mean, i have sympathy for that person who made that decision. on the one hand, if he doesn't go, second-degree murder, black people go, really? i mean, my life is worth, like, manslaughter? so i feel sympathy for that. then to overrule, the ability to
talk about racial profiling as a judicial component of this case, underscores, again, why it makes a difference to have people as actors and as producers. as judges and as -- >> also i think the irony here is whatever the eventual outcome of this, but if the outcome -- i'm not saying it will, but were the outcome to end in an acquittal, immediately people would be like they overcharged. overcharged was done in the context of this horrible thing that happened. >> if they had gone any lower than a second-degree manslaughter charge, i mean -- >> second-degree murder you're saying. >> i'm sorry, second-degree murder charge. people would have been outraged. >> if it were manslaughter, you would not have to -- if were manslaughter -- >> it would be more of a negligent -- they would still use the self-defense. it would be a negligent standard which is a lot lower and easier for a prosecutor to argue. same thing in casey anthony, they charged for first-degree murder when they couldn't prove intent or why the child died.
these are the things you have to keep in mind. >> here's the other thing about watching the video today. particularly the walkthrough. the thing that struck me was, man, that dude looks like he's pretty messed up. like, he kind of got beat up. i remember when the photos first came out, there were scratches on the back of the head. when you see his nose in this, it's like, okay, he took something in the face. and so then the question becomes, okay, what if, and i want to, like, open this hypothetical and answer it when we come back. what if everything zimmerman said about how it all went down is true? it's still -- what i want to say from the standpoint of justice, not necessarily the law is, it's still not okay that this kid is dead. like, that is why i find myself getting worked up about it as i'm following the trial. i want to discuss that right after we take this break.
he said, you got a problem now, then he was here and he punched me in the face. i stumbled and i fell down. he pushed me down. somehow he got on top of me. >> on the grass or on the cement? >> it was more over toward here. i think i was trying to push him away from me. that's when i started screaming for help. i started screaming, help, help, as loud as i could. and that is when he grabbed -- oh, i tried to sit up. that's when he grabbed me by the head and tried to slam my head down. >> that's george zimmerman speaking to local police right after, a day or two after, trayvon martin was shot. joining me is michael eric dyson, msnbc political analyst. and professor of sociology at georgetown university. karen desoto, criminal defense attorney. and karen cadet, "huffington post black voices." that account george zimmerman gives in that taped interview differs from other testimony we heard.
maybe he jumped -- but it's like you followed him, you followed him. you precipitated this whole thing. if it ends up being the case you precipitated him and trapped him for no reason other than he was a suspect in your mind, then it went down the way you said, and this dude beat the crap out of you because you were following him, then you get to shoot him and what? >> you're making the point because this is the frailty of the -- or i think the inherent injustice of the stand your ground law. who can stand their ground? you jump on me, you ambush me, you have a set of stereotypes in your mind and i cream you. i'm getting the best of you. oh, you're going to beat me? >> the standard here isn't even stand your ground. this is just self-defense. right? >> i mean, obviously this was a tragic accident, but i think that trayvon martin's parents have a great case against the state of florida because the concealed weapon is the problem here. no states allow people to, you know, have concealed weapons on their person. >> lots of states. >> texas.
>> texas, well, and we can talk about texas because there's a lot of cases out there. but having somebody, allowing somebody to have a concealed weapon is like having a toddler with a machete. >> when you watch all this, the other thing that kept coming up to me is i just wish we could go back in time and take the fun gun out of this equation. more than anything. more than any single magic wand that i could wave. it would be to just -- >> that's the reason why he felt comfortable pursuing him. >> yes. >> at the end of the day, when the cop says why are you out of your car? if you think about it, with all the other witnesses, everybody has said, i didn't want to get involved. >> everyone's staying inside. >> i didn't want to -- i didn't even want to call the cops. i didn't want to have anything to do with this. for some reason, george zimmerman is the only person out of everybody in this community who felt comfortable pursuing this suspicious individual. >> because he had a gun on him. >> and here's the point, you can be in the wrong, you can pursue somebody. the cops told him, don't do it. the 911, don't do it. he goes and does it anyway. now i get, i as the victim of george zimmerman, trayvon martin gets killed because he's
defending himself against a guy who has a jungle of stereotypes and this hero belief that he is the supercop and he's going to beat this person bad. it's the perfect storm of all that's bad. >> the problem, it wasn't illegal for him to follow somebody, wasn't illegal for. him -- >> you're saying illegal. >> illegal. therein lies the problem. >> what would clear the bar? i mean, i can't ask you to read the mind of the jury. if you're talking about what this depraved mind would be. to me, that's the thing we watched throughout this week. increasingly to me that emerges as this really difficult standard. first of all. and second of all, this question of, it ends up being fundamentally a character assessment of who this person is in that moment. >> exactly. >> more than it ends up being, the witnesses saying who's on top of who. >> if we switch the color of those two guys this is a completely different outcome.
>> msnbc analyst michael eric dyson, criminal defense attorney karen desoto. "the rachel maddow show" starts right now. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. they held a party today in texas. 5,000 people turning out on their lunch hours in austin. look at this. outside the state capitol in the baking july heat. they had dancing and music including from natalie maines from the dixie chicks and a band called the bright light social hour did a song that went on for at least four minutes and contained a single word, wendy. ♪ wendy, wendy, wendy that would be wendy as in wendy davis. the texas democratic state senator who last week filibustered an antiabortion bill in texas until the clock ran out on the special session. and even though texas' majority republicans are back again this week as of today trying to pass that same bill, the scene outside the texas state capitol in austin today, at least for opponents of that bill, it was kind of a party today.
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