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tv   MSNBC Live  MSNBC  July 5, 2013 6:00am-9:01am PDT

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>> sustained. >> you certainly had to hope that was your son screaming even before you heard it, correct? >> i didn't hope for anything. i just simply listened to the tape. >> in your mind, as his mother, there was no doubt whatsoever that it was him screaming, correct? >> absolutely. >> did you have any thought in mind how you would react if it -- if you believed or didn't hear your son's voice? >> i really didn't know what the tape was all about. >> and everybody else in the room when they listened to the tape, who was the first one to react? >> i was. >> and everybody else then reacted similarly to you, correct? >> well, they also heard the tape themselves. >> correct. and every one of them then told
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you that they agreed with your opinion that it was trayvon martin's voice, correct? >> they didn't tell me anything. >> when you mentioned a moment ago that you didn't know what -- nobody spoke to you to tell you that you would soon be listening to screams from the event that led to your son's death? >> no. >> mayor triplet never said anything like that to you? >> no. >> nor did any of your other family members? >> they haddent heard the tape at that time. >> the question is whether or not anyone told you to prepare yourself for the event, for the trauma, of having to listen to
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somebody scream moments before your son was shot? >> no. >> nobody mentioned that to you? >> no. >> tracy martin never told you about that? >> no. >> and you just listened to it one time, correct? >> that's it. >> a moment your honor. >> thank you, your honor. obviously based upon [ inaudible ]. >> any redirect?
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>> yes, your honor. >> you were asked about hope. did you hope your son wouldn't be dead, trayvon martin? you were asked by the defense counsel about hope. you still hoping he would still be alive? >> i hope he was still alive. >> and -- i'll ask this, but i'll ask you, did you enjoy listening to that recording? >> absolutely not. >> thank you. no further questions. >> okay. miss fulton -- >> your honor, ma'am, in the risk of another objection i don't mean to put you through this anymore than necessary but we need to, but you certainly would hope that your son trayvon martin tin did nothing that could have led to his own death,
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correct? >> what was your question again? >> you hope as a mom, you certainly hope that your son trayvon martin would not have done anything that would have led to his own death, correct? >> what i hoped for is that this would have never happened and he would still be here. that's my hope. >> absolutely. and now dealing with the reality that he's no longer here, it is certainly your hope as a mom, hold out hope as long as you can, that trayvon martin was in no way responsible for his own death? correct? >> i don't believe he was. >> i know. and that's the hope that you continue, correct? >> i don't understand what you're trying to ask me. >> again, i don't mean to put you through more than we need to. no other questions. >> miss fulton, you may step down, subject to being recalled. just so we know, we're having an issue with the evidence locker door. as soon as that gets resolved you'll be more than likely recalled. thank you.
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>> want to call your next witness, please. javaris fulton, please. >> and there you see trayvon martin's mother sybrina fulton stepping down, though she may be called back at some point. bring in lisa bloom, our msnbc legal analyst. craig melvin live in sanford and here with me in studio, professor cobb, following the trial as a contributing writer for the new yorker. lisa you first, where we stand right now and sybrina fulton's testimony just there, did she exclusively help the prosecution? i mean, the -- there was tension i felt as mark o'mara was asking her questions, although as you correctly said prior to her testimony, he had to do it? >> he absolutely had to. i think she did extremely well on the stand.
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she was poised. she was composed. she didn't take the bait to fight with mark o'mara on cross-examination and she held steady to her statements that was her son trayvon martin screaming on that call. i think mark o'mara did a good job of trying to just plant a little seed in the jury's mind that perhaps she was hoping rather than really knowing. >> all right. we're going to go back now to the trial. i believe this is javaris fulton, trayvon martin's older brother. a student at florida international university. >> and what year will you be at fiu this coming fall? >> this will be my senior year. >> do you have a major? >> yes. >> what is that? >> information technology. >> and are you a full-time student? >> yes. >> are you related to trayvon martin? >> yes. >> how soon. >> that's my brother. >> and are you older or younger than trayvon martin? >> older. >> how much older? >> about four and a half years.
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>> what is your mother's name? >> sybrina fulton. >> and what is your -- are you related to tracy martin? >> yes. >> how are you related to tracy martin? >> that's my dad. >> is he your biological father? >> no. >> why do you call him your dad? >> well, he's the only dad i know. i grew up with him. >> did you and trayvon martin grow up together? >> yes. >> and how would you describe your relationship with trayvon martin growing up? were you all close or what? >> yes. we were very close. >> despite the four years age difference, between the two of you, you and trayvon martin do in this together when growing up? >> yes. >> let me turn your attention to the month of february 2012. were you and trayvon martin living together at that time? >> yes. >> and who did you live with? >> my mom, sybrina fulton, my
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brother and my uncle. >> let me turn your attention to sunday, february 26th. were you aware that trayvon martin was with his father tracy martin in sanford, florida, that day? >> yes. >> did you go to sanford that weekend? >> no. >> at some point were you notified that trayvon had been killed in sanford? >> yes. >> and when were you told? >> monday. >> and who told you? >> my mother. >> since your brother's death have you had an opportunity to hear a tape that contains screaming and a gunshot? >> yes. >> can you estimate for the members of the jury approximately how many times you've heard that tape? >> anywhere between 10 to 15 times. >> and how have you heard it? have you heard it on a computer? on tv? on the internet or what? >> i've heard it from a computer
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and from tv. >> and do you recognize any voices on that tape? >> yes. >> whose voice do you recognize? >> my brother. >> trayvon's? >> yes. >> what parts of the recording do you recognize as your brother's voice? >> yelling and screaming. >> had you ever heard trayvon martin yell or scream as the two of you were growing up? >> i heard him yell but not like that but yes. >> your honor, that's all i have. thank you. >> cross? >> good morning. >> good morning. >> you actually were not certain it was your brother's voice when you first heard it, though, correct? >> correct. >> as a matter of fact, you had talked to a reporter about whose
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voice it may have been, correct? >> yes. >> and you told that reporter geo ben knee as it on march 31st of 2012, that you weren't sure, correct? >> yes. >> you said that honestly, really having listened to it, i've heard it, i would think it was my brother but i'm to the completely confident? correct? >> uh-huh. >> you have to answer out loud. >> yes. >> having listened to the tape the first time you listened to it was in the mayor's office in sanford, correct? >> yes. >> and your mom was there? yes. >> and other family members? an your attorneys, correct? >> yes. >> during that time you listened to it along with everybody else, correct? >> yes. >> and from having listened to it, it was your thought that it might be trayvon, correct? >> when we heard it in the
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mayor's office, how do i -- i wasn't -- i guess i didn't want to believe that it was him. so that's why during that interview, i said i wasn't sure. i got to listen to it clouded by shock and denial and i didn't really want to believe that was him. >> sure. but you recall where you listened to that, middle of march, march 16th of 2012, would that be about right? >> i don't remember. >> it was a full two weeks before you had your sit down interview with the reporter, wasn't it? >> i'm not sure. >> okay. if i were to mention a moment ago that the interview is on cbs
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miami channel 4 on march 31st do you have any reason to contest that? >> no. i'm not sure of the dates. >> okay. i mentioned also that the tape, we'll find this from other witnesses, the tape was played for the family on march 16th or thereabouts. any reason to contest that? >> no. >> if that was about two weeks did you listen to the tape in between? >> probably not. >> in the two weeks -- >> i'm sorry. >> no. >> well, the reporter actually played the tape, didn't he, when you were there? >> i'm not sure. actually, could you -- i'm not sure of the time you're talking about anymore. >> okay. let me ask it this way. do you recall sitting down with geo benitez, a reporter for cbs miami channel 4, and talking to him about who you thought may
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have been on the tape? >> yes. >> do you remember that event? >> i remember. >> i'm sorry? >> yes, i remember. >> that was the event that i talked about earlier where you first answered to him his question, was, who did you hear crying for help? do you remember that question? >> i don't remember the question. >> okay. what i would like to do is with the court's indulgence, play that recording for you and ask if you remember the call at that point, the tv program at that point. >> judge, i object to that as being improper -- >> you would need to do that outside the presence of the jury. >> i understand. >> ladies and gentlemen, if you'll please put your note pdas down, follow the deputy back to the jury room. >> all right. so there's some sort of a delay right now. seems like it's a procedural
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incident that has to be taken care of there. lisa bloom, what's going on right now? is this the fact that there was evidence that's being entered that wasn't cleared? is it like that? >> there is an audio or video recording that mark o'mara wants to play on cross-examination with this young man where it appears that he tells the reporter he's not sure it's trayvon martin screaming on the tape. so on cross-examination, the defense is allowed to ask about that. he wasn't sure before. now he is sure. the judge wants to hear that recording outside the presence of the jury to make sure that it's proper and admissible evidence. >> okay. let's go back and listen and see if that has been cleared or not. >> answer and i think proper impeachment to play his own words. >> i think he said he wasn't sure and if the rules of impeachment require that you show the witness the statement or let them listen to the statement, and that's done to
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themselves and since it's going to be played in open court the jury needed to be removed. if you can play it for him and we go from there. >> yes, your honor. >> judge, for the record, i believe the witness's answer was that he told the reporter he wasn't positive it was his brother's voice. i think this is not going to be proper impeachment because it's consistent with what he said in court. >> let him listen to it. >> you heard those calls. >> it has video. i don't know that it's necessary for the witness to see the video. rather than go through warming up the projector -- >> just play it, yeah. you heard those calls and i know
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that you mentioned the cries for help. when you heard those calls and those cries for help, who did you hear crying for help? >> i'm not sure. honestly, i'm not -- i don't -- really haven't even listened to them that good. i've heard it, but -- my brother but i'm not completely positive. >> for these purposes, does that assist you in remembering the conversation you had with geo benit benitez? >> yes. >> ta was your voice, yes correct? so yes. >> you did say to him the words "i'm not sure"? >> yes. >> i think that is the purpose of impeachment, but i am going
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to renew my request based upon his interpretation concerning his answers -- >> i need to hear his answer to the original question. the state is saying that he answered similarly. so if the court reporter could take a moment to read it back. >> as she's doing it. i think when i said his words, he said yes, but when i asked limb again later, the later question, the more relevant question, he said i really don't remember. it was for that reason that i wanted to remind him. yes, the first question, he did. but then he equiv cated towards the end of his testimony. >> i think his answer, i don't know, was do you remember the reporter asking you that particular question. he did not equivocate about what his answer was. >> thank you. >> if you don't say anything so the court reporter can look back.
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>> i'm not sure which questions you're referring to, but i've just read this. question, good morning sir. >> it was the first question i asked. >> okay. question, you actually were not certain it was your brother's voice when you first heard it though, correct? answer correct. question, as a matter of fact you had talked to a reporter about whose voice it may have been correct? correct. want me to keep going? >> i want -- question, you told that reporter geo benitez on march 31st, 2012 you weren't sure, answer correct yes, you said honestly you haven't listened to it i've heard it i would think it was my brother but i'm not completely positive.
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answer uh-huh. >> question you have to answer out loud. answer yes. >> this was the impeachment of a collateral matter as to whether or not the question was asked but his answer is the same. >> i would ask that the court reporter, my concern was that he equiv cated when i asked him just at the end of the examination before he took a break, so maybe we can have the last three or four questions just so -- >> okay. >> in context.
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>> i'm still not quite sure what question you want. let me ask it this way, when do you recall sitting down with giovanni benitez a reporter for cbs miami talking to him about who you thought may or may not have been on this case. answer question. question do you remember that event. answer i remember it question i'm sorry. answer yes, i remember it. question that was the event i talked about earlier where your first answer to his question was who did you hear cry for that help? do you remember that question. answer i don't remember the question and then you wanted to play the tape. >> whether he remembered the question is a collateral answer. his answer was the same, that he told the reporter that he wasn't sure. whatever words were used. so that's not necessarily -- that's not impeachment. it's a collateral manner of what
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the reporter may have asked. >> and i would -- >> did not differ. >> and i would renew my request that it be played in front of the jury for a couple reasons. one, his eequivocation just now and two, that the best evidence actually is his own words that he spoke to the reporter it shows his inflection, his hesitation, and rather than having just the cole low question. >> what is the purpose? for impeachment? because the court's finding it's not impeachment. is there another legal basis for playing that recording? >> it's the best evidence of the event that happened back then, your honor, even if he testified to it now, he's testifying quite honestly, in a very different attitude and inquiry. >> that's not a legal basis. >> i understand the court's concern. >> for impeachment purposes it may not be played because his answer is the same today as it was then so that's not impeachment. his not remembering the
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reporter's question as a collateral matter because it's not the question that matters, it's the answer that's given. so your request is -- the objection is sustained. >> correct. for purposes i would like to have this clip which we played marked as an exhibit. exhibit jj? >> not come in but marked as jj. okay. i hear the locksmiths are here and the jury is out. let's take a brief recess to try to get that door open. i'm going to remind you you're still on the stand while taking our recess. walk around, go back to where you were, but you cannot discuss your testimony with anybody, okay? all right. the court will be in recess until further notice. >> so the court is in a brief recess, everyone, and javaris fulton has completed his testimony for now. he may be called back to that stand to continue. let's bring in nbc legal analyst
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lisa bloom to talk about what just went down there. i have also two others joining us, i introduced as the contributing writer for "new yorker" magazine and reporter in sanford, florida. this was mark o'mara's attempt to try to muddy the waters if you will and take down the relevance of javaris fulton's testimony saying he recognized his brother's voice as being the one crying for help on that 911 call? >> take down the significance of it? i would say so on direct examination, javaris fulton said i recognize that voice, that's the voice of my brother, trayvon martin. on cross-examination, he had to concede that the first time he heard that recording, he wasn't sure that it was trayvon martin and he heard it for the first time when a local reporter played it for him during an interview. mark o'mara for the defense wanted to play the audio of that
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interview to underscore that that's, in fact, what this young man said the first time he heard it but the judge would not allow that because you're only allowed to impeach on cross-examination which means a prior inconsistent statement. well substantiates what he said on cross-examination namely the first time he heard it, he just didn't know. there was no legal significance to playing that on cross-examination. so it was not admitted. >> okay. gilani, sometimes we're interpreting things differently, not experts in the legal speak. but it would seem that mark o'mara is trying to just say out of context, the first time you heard this, you weren't quite sure. now that you've heard it time and time and time again, you have developed this certainty, correct? that this is your brother? >> he made that statement to both sybrina fulton and her sonja var ris trying to counter balance the fact that they are
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his closest relatives, they think this is trayvon martin. i think the other thing that's really crucial here is that you remember back to the first day of the trial, that the prosecution opened with the young man, his fiancee's son, whom trayvon went to the store to get skittles for and they're closing with his mother and his brother who looks a great deal like him. >> doesn't he. >> so it's eerie to see this young man who is a spitting image of trayvon martin and a reminder of, you know, what this young man won't get to experience. a college student, well spoken and they're saying well, could this have been what trayvon martin would have grown into had he not died tragically last year. >> i was asking lisa bloom earlier about whether she agreed with the timing of these witnesses right now and the testimony and, you know, absolutely. this will be a positive closing point here before the defense will be able to take over on monday. msnbc's craig melvin is joining us from sanford. you have information about
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sybrina fulton, trayvon's mother who may be coming back to the stand in. >> yeah. you know what, we expect her to be recalled and shown some evidence. what's happening right now, by the way, inside the courtroom is fairly interesting. there's a problem with the evidence locker we're told and it seems as if the problem could very well be that, you know, whoever usually has the key, isn't around. they've had to call in locksmiths to get into the evidence locker. we accountant when they get into that evidence locker that at some point they'll call sybrina fulton and show her evidence. but we also don't know when that's expected to happen. judge nelson, who is known for running a fairly tight shift, typically when she calls a recess, it's 10, 15, maybe 30 minutes. if you just heard there, a few moments ago, this is sort of an indefinite recess because of these technical issues. we should note that before testimony started today, both attorneys, attorneys for the defense, both attorneys, attorneys for the defense and
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state, stipulated to a particular witness, dr. bow, who is a medical examiner that conducted the autopsy on trayvon martin. we thought we might be hearing from him. it does not appear at this point as if we are going to hear from the medical examiner. both sides stipulating basically that this was a medical examiner who conducted the autopsy and that was it. the witnesses that we're getting right now, sybrina fulton, the 36th witness for the state, javaris martin, the 37th witness, could very well be the last witnesses unless, of course, the state decides to call tracy martin, trayvon martin's father. all that being said, we fully expect the state to rest its case today. it remains to be seen whether the prosecution -- whether the defense at that point calls its first witness this afternoon or whether they wait until monday. a lot of that will depend on timing. at this point a lot of timing seems to revolve around this evidence locker they can't seem to get into. >> thanks for keeping a close eye on what's going on inside the courtroom both from your
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vantage point and with your access to the tapes and what's going on. so for all of you, we have a court recess right now which means we're going to take a short recess ourself, pay a few bills and get a few commercial breaks in but be back here with continued coverage on msnbc. >> time for your business entrepreneurs of the week. dave and neil launched warby parker in 2010 to shake up the world of prescription eye ware starting with the price. what began as a purely on-line business was an instant success. why are they focusing their energies on opening up retail stores now? for more watch "your business" sunday mornings at 7:30 on msnbc. is like hammering. riding against the wind. uphill. every day. we make money on saddles and tubes. but not on bikes. my margins are thinner than these tires. anything that gives me some breathing room makes a difference.
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or trouble breathing. tell your doctor your medical history. and find an arthritis treatment for you. visit and ask your doctor about celebrex. for a body in motion. welcome back. i'm alex witt. we're closely watching compelling testimony coming out of sanford, florida. we heard for the first time from sybrina fulton testifying about the 911 call she heard. >> i heard my son scream. >> i understand. the alternative, only alternative, would you agree, would be that if it was to the your son screaming it would be george zimmerman, correct? >> objection as to speculation. >> sustained. >> you certainly had to hope that was your son screaming even before you heard it, correct? >> i didn't hope anything.
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i just simply listened to the tape. >> just a short while later we heard from trayvon martin's brother, older brother jahvaris, talking when he heard the 911 tapes. >> do you recognize any voices on that tape? >> yes. >> whose voice do you recognize? >> my brother. >> trayvon's? >> yes. >> what parts of the recording do you recognize as your brother's voice? >> the yelling and the screaming. >> so i'm back with nbc analyst lisa bloom, as well as here in studio gilani cobb following this trial for "the new yorker" and lisa, are you surprised by the brevity of trayvon martin's mother or was that pretty much all we could expect to get from her under the circumstances? >> i think that before her testimony, the lawyers at a side bar were arguing about the scope of her testimony and how much could come in and the judge made
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a ruling on that, that limited it to what we heard. i know that she's subject to recall. we may hear more from her depending on evidence that's gathered from the evidence locker where everybody is looking for the key. we'll stay tuned for that. i would have also expected to hear more what we call foundational questions. meaning other times in your life in trayvon martin's life had you heard him screaming and what in context had you heard him screaming to support her testimony. we didn't hear those kinds of questions. we heard a little bit of that with the brother, had you heard him screaming and yelling before. he said yelling. we've already heard from an audio expert in this case, from the quantico at fbi who said that people have a very different voice when they're speaking and when they're screaming which i think comports with our common sense. surprised we didn't hear more background questions. clearly the mother did say that is trayvon martin, that is my son's voice screaming, said that from the first time she's heard it and maintained that consistently through today on her testimony.
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>> you know, lisa, speaking of the first time when mark o'mara took to begin questioning her, he offered his condolences for the loss of her son. and immediately, the prosecution objected to that. what is that about? is there legal precedence that you can't have an opinion like that or, you know, thoughtful condolence or what was that? >> let me tell you something, mark o'mara is one of the finest criminal defense attorneys i have ever seen. he has a very calm demeanor. he chooses every word that he says very carefully. he does not mistakenly say anything in that courtroom so that when he began with i apologize for your loss. not just condolences for your loss, but apologize, i think that had to have been carefully thought out in advantage. that is improper. we attorneys in the courtroom are not supposed to be making statements. we are supposed to be asking appropriate questions. and that was not appropriate and the judge admonished him for
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that. he got it out and the jury heard it and allowed him to appear like a sympathetic person before he had to embark on the cross-examination of trayvon's mother. >> but the word apologize. did he use that word, do you think, i'm asking you to speculate and get inside his head, the fact that his client has admitted killing trayvon martin, so that there is blame, there's ownership of it, he's apologizing on behalf of george zimmerman? >> well, he didn't say on behalf of. he just said i apologize. who does he represent? he represents george zimmerman. we heard george zimmerman earlier on this week on an interview with sean hannity from fox news when asked if he has any regrets, if he would do anything differently, months later when he conducted that interview, he said, i think this was all god's plan. something that jury could really take as offensive comments. he didn't say i'm sorry this happened, it's a terrible thing, this young man died, sure if i
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had to do it again it would turn out differently. perhaps mark o'mara had that in mind when he began his cross-examination with i apologize for your loss? interesting. gilani we were watching sybrina fulton's testimony here, as a mother, be on my part, i could feel my heart pounding as i listened to her and watched her eyes blinking. i couldn't tell whether she was, you know, holding back tears. she's a very calm, thoughtful, deliberate witness. her impact as you consider what you're going to write about this, what's your take away? >> i mean, there's a kind of quiet heroism about her because she's there under unimaginable circumstances. no matter what you believe about this case, this is still a woman who is grieving the loss of a child. no parent ever really recovers from that. and so i think that, you know, what she does is humanize trayvon martin. if this has been a case that has
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been about forensics, that's been about, you know, details of, you know, who said what, who was on top when they were wrestling, what we now recognize is that this was a 17-year-old young man. i think that is the point that the prosecution wants the jury to leave with. >> yeah. and craig, i want to bring you into the conversation. as you well know you've been covering this, the martin family, sybrina fulton included, has always said what we want to have here is a trial, is to have this incident brought to justice that way. whatever the outcome. do you get the sense that people there in sanford, florida, feel the same way or is there a definitive lean towards what they expect to come from this trial? >> you know, that's a good question, alex. i've spent time talking to folks here in sanford and i'll tell you, folks in sanford are ready to get all of this behind them. obviously the media has been camped out here for the duration
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of the trial. we were, of course, camped out shortly after the arrest. and i talked to folks in the hotel after i checked in and basically, folks here in sanford are fully aware that the eyes of america and that the eyes of quite frankly a lot of eyes all over the globe, all those eyes are on sanford. the concern here is sanford, florida, becomes forever synonymous with this tragedy. there is a lot of talk here about that. you mentioned the jurors a short time ago. and we, of course, have been keeping a very close eye, a very close eye on how the jurors react to certain testimony. how the jurors react to certain witnesses, certain attorneys as well. during sybrina fulton's testimony we can tell you that all of the jurors, all of them, which is actually quite rare, were apparently taking lots of notes, looking down during that 911 call as well. but again, that's sort of one of
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the things that we're doing a lot of here, is trying to gauge juror response. but right now, of course, we're waiting for the evidence locker to be reopened here in sanford, florida. >> we are. we know a locksmith has appeared and will be taking to getting that open and then that trial can get back under way. all right. craig, thank you very much. we'll ask you to continue standing by as well as you, gilani in studio with me and lisa bloom following things from burbank right now. we're going to take a break from the trial but not from the show. as we have some really exciting things happening. msnbc being involved in this. the essence festival, it is under way in the big easy. this event it is now in its 19th year, a celebration of the african-american community. it features everything from semi nares to concerts, big time ones. we are teaming up with essence communications and broadcasting live from the festival all weekend and my colleague has more from new orleans where she has been posted. mara, good day to you. today is kickoff.
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>> yes. good morning. alex, a lot of people here are talking about the trial, they're following it closely so, of course, that news is also affecting this event in that way. today is the first day of the event. you can see the essence stage is set up behind me as well as a number of other attractions here at the convention center. this event expected to draw tens of thousands of people to the city of new orleans for the first time this is a 19th time they've done it, for the first time they've changeds the name from the essence music festival to the essence festival and doing that to reflect the diversity of the events and programming they have going on. there is still a lot of music every night, concerts, performances, by artists like ll cool jay, maxwell, jill scott and the queen bee of them all beyonce. she's the last one that will close out this whole show. they like to call this a party with a purpose. during the day, they have their empowerment experience. that's a number of panels and
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discussions, you know, it's really an opportunity for people in the community to come together and have important conversations about issues that they think need to be addressed. earlier i got a chance to speak with the president of the national urban league, and he told me what some of those serious issues are. >> i think that the key issues are jobs and economic empowerment, education and our children, and the protection of democracy in voting rights. those i think are the three critical issues facing communities and facing the nation at this present point in time. >> now, of course, morial is former mayor of new orleans so this is a homecoming for him. for the first time this year msnbc is the broadcast partner of this event. right over there, can't see it yet, but you will today and throughout the weekend is our set. a number of hosts will be anchoring their shows from here. i'm standing at reverend al's
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blueberry pie cafe. the pro mo about the blueberry pie took on a lot of weight, talked about it, that has grown into the blueberry pie cafe and rumor has it they will be giving out blueberry pie today. anticipate sticking around for that. >> i bet you. notice the smile on your face when you talk about your hopeful new best friend mrs. carter who will be performing at the end of the weekend. >> yes. >> best friend in my head. >> you know, wherever it is it's all good. thank you very much. and, of course our coverage from the essence festival starts today at noon. just over two hours from now. with "now" and then "hardball" "news nation" "politics nation" and the ed show. we take a short break but will be back with more on the trial of george zimmerman. testimony expected to resume shortly. ♪ this summer was definitely worth the wait.
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the current president of south africa says nelson mandela
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remains in critical but stable condition in a pretoria hospital. president jacob zuma made the comments amid rampant speculation and other conflicting reports about the 94-year-old's condition which has led to confusion. nbc's ron allen is in pretoria, south africa, with the latest. good day to you, ron. >> here the hospital in pretoria, the crowds continue to arrive at the hospital offering their prayers, singing hymns and paying respects to nelson mandela. the official word from the government is he remains in critical but stable condition, although very little detail has been released about his condition inside the hospital. that's why there's a lot of rumor and speculation. a report making the rounds he is in a persistent vegetative state on life support and his family has been advised to discontinue care. the government flatly denies that and says it's not true. in the past the mandela family has reacted negatively to simpler reports. we heard from mandela's wife graca, who says he is at times
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uncomfortable but not in pain and in her words doing just fine. meanwhile, here in pretoria, the vigil continues. back to you. >> all right. ron allen in pretoria, thank you very much from there. from now we go to egypt, a lot of developing news out of that country this morningp in in cairo, thousands of supporters of ousted president mohamed morsi are on the move. the republican guard headquarters where he is believed to be held under house arrest. amid the so-called day of reject sln with pro-morsi protesters holding demonstrations inside the city. joining me is ayman mohyeldin. let's talk about the crowds and if they are armed, what you know about that. >> right now as we understand it, the main center point for the rallies that have been converging here in cairo is not far away from the republican headquarters, the seen all along for the pro-morsi supporters. they've been there, rallying, wanting to have their president reinstated. we understand at this point some
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of those protesters marched on to the republican party or to the republican guard headquarters and it was there they were at least met with the police. there was a confrontation as we understand it. we are getting initial reports of casualties. no confirmation of any fatalities at this point. though there are eyewitnesses who are reportingp that the police there opened fire on the crowds or the army there opened fire on the crowds and that may have led to some of the casualties we're getting reports about. a tense situation that is developing right now at the headquarters of the republican guard. alex sp. >> amman, a couple developments i want to discuss with you. militant attacks on the army in sinai, the general prosecutor having resigned from his post and the african union has suspended egypt. overall how does this reflect the country's stability right now? >> the first point you talk about extreme hi important. the sinai peninsula, the northern part, has seen over the course of the last years a rise
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in militancy. right now as we understand it egypt's military has been put on a heightened state of alert following an attack on one of its post overnight. over the course of the last 48 hours, a the lot of past 48 hout on the sinai peninsula are displeased with the decision to oust president mohamed morsi. they say they will carry out attacks and avenge his removal. i is a very deteriorating situation we understand now. the african union news, an indication how not only countries in the region but internationally, how they're responding to the decision to oust the former president. there is a lot of criticism for how he managed the country. at the end of the day, the argument many people were making, he was democratically elected, he had the constitutional backing to govern. that is what the african union based it's decision upon. as you mentioned, a lot of internal politics taking place in egypt. the general prosecutor formally
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appointed by mubarak and then ousted by former president morsi, he has resigned after he came under some criticism for the way he launched a crackdown over the past 24 hours on some senior members of the muslim brotherhood and other members. a lot of developing pieces right now. >> before we let you go, the border crossing between gaza and egypt has been closed. what is the significance of that? >> reporter: it's extremely significant for the people of gaza. they live on the palestinian side of gaza and they're only condit to the outside world is through that border crossing. the military has closed that border crossing preventing palestinians from leaving gaza to egypt. there is security concern for egypt because a lot of tunnels run along that border from gaza to the northern part of the sinai. it has been believed for several years a lot of intelligence reports those tunnels have been
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used to smuggle weapons along with other basic necessities for the people of gaza and now there may be a flow of weapons in the other direction allowing people to come in and perhaps create a dangerous environment in the northern city of sinai. >> thank you. in other news this morning, pope francis announced john paul ii will be cannon he neeized a . and so the second miracle was attributed earlier this week by a plenary meeting by cardinals and bishops. strong numbers from the labor department which issued it's june jobs reports today. 195,000 jobs were added last month although the unemployment rate remains stuck at 7.6%. in addition, the last two months were better than originally thought. april job numbers revised upwards from 149 to 199,000.
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in may, from 175 to 195,000. we are going to come back with more on today's testimony in the george zimmerman trial. stay with us on msnbc. about who to hire without going to angie's list first. with angie's list, i know who to call, and i know the results will be fantastic! find out why more than two million members count on angie's list. angie's list -- reviews you can trust. "that starts with one of the world's most advancedy," distribution systems," "and one of the most efficient trucking networks," "with safe, experienced drivers." "we work directly with manufacturers," "eliminating costly markups," "and buy directly from local farmers in every region of the country." "when you see our low prices, remember the wheels turning behind the scenes, delivering for millions of americans, everyday. "dedication: that's the real walmart" southfork ranch in dallas for a cookout with world champion
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i wouldn't but i never had the tapes myself. >> it's been the better part of a half hour on a break and we're now back with testimony from trayvon martin's older brother. let's listen in. >> your conversation with mr. b benne beninita was you wanted to listen to it again. >> say it again? >> between the time i first listened to it and another time, did you ever ask someone to listen to it again? >> no. >> in your words, the first two
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times is what you needed to hear, is that correct? >> not what i needed but i didn't want to listen to them again. >> yet your answers earlier remain the same, of course, you said what you said to mr. benitez about not being sure who it was on the tape, correct? >> yes. >> and though you said a moment ago you didn't want to listen to it more you actually have listened to it many more times since, haven't you? >> yes. >> was there a reason why in between the fist two weeks you didn't want to listen to it but were okay with listening to it 10 or 15 times afterwards? >> yeah. it's emotional. i didn't want to listen to them again. >> but you have listened to it at least 10 times since, correct? >> yeah. well, no, in total ten times, so if that was two, maybe eight separate occasions.
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>> you said a moment ago that you lived in the house with sybrina fulton and trayvon martin, correct? >> yes. >> tracy was not living there at that point, correct? >> no. >> when you say you consider tracy martin to be your dad, he actually left the home a long long time ago, correct? >> yes. >> how old were you when he actually left the home? >> 9 or 10. >> and that would have put trayvon at presidential what age? trayvon martin? >> if i was 9, he might have been 5. >> the two of you didn't really hang out together, did you? you and trayvon martin? >> yes. but, i mean, it depends what you're talking about. >> okay. you didn't have the same
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friends, correct? >> no. >> if you were to go out somewhere you might go out and do something with your set of friends and he would go out and do something with his set of friends? >> correct. >> certainly as brothers you would do things together or whatever that might be, correct? you didn't run in the same circles, did you? >> no. >> you didn't interact with him on facebook? >> not really, no. >> nor on twitter? >> no. >> but you did interact, of course, with your other friends on those social media sites, correct? >> occasionally, yes. >> may i have a moment, your honor? >> yes.
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>> and when tracy martin left home, he actually got re-married, didn't he? >> yes, some years later, yes. >> was trayvon martin then spending a lot of time -- the new wife was alicia, correct? >> yes. >> did you spend a lot of time with your dad over at that house? >> yes. >> and did trayvon martin as well spend a lot of time over at that house? >> yes. >> he was more living there a lot of the time in the last few years, wasn't he? >> not really. >> what do you mean by that? >> he -- how it went -- let me see, i guess, growing up, we usually spent the weekends over there or whenever we wanted, i guess, we could go over. and towards the end i don't
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know, it was about the same. >> thank you. i have nothing further. >> thank you. any redirect? >> mr. fulton, you were asked about listening to that 911 call with your brother's screams on it for the first time at the mayor's office. was that emotionally difficult for you to hear? >> yes. >> were you still sort of in denial about your brother's death at that point? >> yes. >> and then you don't recall listening to that tape again between the time you heard at the mayor's office, in the interview that you were asked about, is that what you're saying? >> yes. >> all right. >> but you did tell the interviewer that you would like to think it's your brother's voice but you weren't completely positive, is that what you told him? >> yes. >> object, your honor -- i'm
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sorry. withdraw it. >> since that time of the interview, you had an opportunity, you said eight, possibly more times to listen to it? >> yes. >> do you now believe it's trayvon martin's voice yelling for help on the tape? >> yes. >> you were asked about growing up. how old were you presidential when your mother, sybrina fulton and tracy martin divorced? >> 9. >> as i understood what you said after that point, you primarily lived with your mother, but you would visit tracy martin on the weekends? >> yes. >> and any other time you wanted to? >> yes. >> would trayvon go with you to trayvon martin's house to visit? >> yes. >> you now go to fiu, correct? >> yes. >> where did you go before that? did you go to a different college? >> yes. i went to famu. >> where is that located? >> tallahassee. >> when you were at famu in
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tallahassee, would you come home and stay with your mother and trayvon martin? >> yes. >> were there occasions that trayvon martin, your brother, went to visit you in tallahassee when you were in school there? >> yes. >> okay. but back in, i guess the fall of '11, and the first months of 2012, you were actually at fiu, back in miami? >> yes. >> thank you, sir. >> may mr. fulton be excused? >> yes, ma'am. >> thank you very much, sir. you may be excused. state please call your next witness. >> the state would recall sybrina fulton. >> your honor, may we approach brief briefly? >> yes. miss fulton, you're still under oath so we don't need to square you in again. please approach.
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>> good morning, everybody. i'm thomas roberts. we've been listening to this compelling testimony of trayvon martin's trial. both family members taking the stand today and we see sybrina martin back on the stand. show was there earlier. the first witness to take the stand, they let her go off because there wa an issue with the locker, the evidence locker. our craig melvin is standing by watching all this unfold. let's talk about that because she was excused earlier. maybe they dealt with that issue of finding the person in charge whoever locked up the evidence locker? >> reporter: actually, thomas, we're not sure they did find the person who was in charge of the evidence locker. they had to call in some locksmiths to get it open. what we are expecting here when
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sybrina fulton resumes her testimony is for some evidence to be presented and to have her comment on that evidence. we also think this could very well be the last witness for the state, if trayvon martcy martin called. earlier today both sides stipulated to some testimony from the medical examiner that the medical examiner who performed the autopsy on trayvon martin was in fact the doctor who performed the autopsy. at this point, we do not expect to hear from the medical examiner. the state's 29 witnesses, we expect that could very well be it for the state. judge nelson has indicated as soon as the state finishes presenting it's case, the defense will be expected to present it's first witness. that could very well happen this afternoon. mark o'mara has told some local facilit facility -- affiliates in the orlando area he plans to present
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a vigorous case and a number of witnesses. sybrina fulton expected to resume her testimony and the state will question first. at that point, we expect her to be cross-examined by mark o'mara. >> also joining our coverage is lisa bloom, our nbc legal analyst in the studio and professor cobb, a contributing writer for "the new yorker," following the trial. let me start with you. what do you think of what sybrina fulton has been able to describe this morning about the 911 tape. it seems that's where most of the questioning has remained around? >> there was a dispute earlier, in the case, in the trial about whether or not they would have, you know, audio technicians and specialists talking about what voice was on the recording, the technical aspects of it. i don't think any of that necessarily competes with a mother saying, this is my child and i know what my child sounds like. there's a certain kind of emotional content, i think,
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comes with that. the other thing implicit in this interesting argument the defense posed to her saying, well, if this is not your son, does that mean he in fact did something to bring about his own death? i'm not sure how those two things necessarily correlate. regardless who it is yelling for help that doesn't necessarily tell us who is the aggressor in initiating the conflict. you saw him draw those two things together and she didn't respond or take the bait. >> we saw his older brother just leave the stand, has a compelling resemblance to trayvon martin, a lot of questions about when he was first given access to the tape and questioned about a reporter by it, he didn't seem so certain in the beginning of that, not saying it wasn't his brother but wasn't certain about it. they seemed to play that up from the defense side. >> the defense said that. he also said in his own testimony to the prosecution, he
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said, i didn't want to think that that was my brother, because of shock, denial and sadness. make of it what you will, either a person that has come along to the conclusion this is his brother because everyone else thinks this or just someone understand blue in denial because you don't want to hear a loved one screaming for help moments before they die. >> with sybrina fulton starting off the day, first witness called, mark o'mara coming out of the gate apologizing, the judge edadmonishing him for tha. what's the tone you think the defense has taken so far with the family of trayvon martin? >> i think they've been very careful with this. lisa bloom also pointed this out, it didn't really look good during the interview with sean hannity when george zimmerman said, this is god's plan, and he didn't strike people as particularly upset that however this happened, i wish we'd never
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encountered each other on this day and maybe he puts this point out there, we're sorry for your loss and they don't look like complete villains. >> how do you think the prosecution feels at this point. it seems, as all observers have been watching what's going on in this courtroom, do you think they are closing out strong, if this is it, with the family members, being their final witnesses. >> people have criticized this prosecution. i'm not a legal expert. i will say in the last two or three days, they really brought a focal point what their arguments have been. you saw the medical examiner raising the crucial point she did not think george zimmerman had suffered really life-threatening injuries or injuries consistent with having your head pounded on concrete. you saw the college professor saying mr. zimmerman was in fact aware of the stand your ground doctrine, they discussed it extensively in class, a class he got an a in. then they're veering back to the family members.
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they start out with a clo close -- would be a family member -- the son of his father's fiance and now they're closing out with a person who looks just like him, a very well-spoken intelligent hand some young man who gives you the image of what trayvon martin might have grown to be. >> it's also very compelling when you hear a mom talk about the voice and saying, yes, i recognize that voice, heard that voice since i was baby, basically. i've grown up recognizing that voice. that has to be compelling to this jury, an all female jury and all, i believe, are mothers. >> right. i think the prosecution is wear of that. i don't think they did this by accident. >> craig, do we have any more information about what's going on with the evidence locker? is that one of the holdups we're seeing with some of the delay? i know sybrina fulton was originally taken off the stand because there was evidence they wanted to bring into the conversation, get her to testify to? >> reporter: no.
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we're told in fact from our eyes and ears inside the courtroom the locker issue itself has been resolved. this is precisely what we saw the first time sybrina fulton started her testimony, before the first question was asked, there was an immediate sidebar. the same has happened this time. presumably, the attorneys for both sides once again are talking about what she will and what she will not be permitted to testify about. because, again, as we saw with jahvaris fulton, there had to be a sidebar to discuss the testimony and the attorneys are trying to take care of that on the front end. based on the fact that she was dismissed because of the issue with the evidence locker, we are assuming that at some point during this testimony, there will be some evidence presented to sybrina fulton for her to comment on, so that may be what this sidebar is about, the evidence that will be presented
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and what she will and will not be allowed to testify to, with regards to that evidence. we should also note here, typically, judge nelson has given the jury a break in the morning. because there was that 30 minute recess for the issue to get the locker open, we don't expect there will be a morning break today as well. it looks like -- it looks like the sidebar is breaking up at this point. >> all right, craig. i will ask you to stand by. let's take a quick break on msnbc. we'll be back with much more right after this. the cream smooths the look of lids... softens the look of lines. the serum instantly thickens the look of lashes. see wow! eyes in just one week with olay. see wow! eyes in just one week i'm gonna have to ask you to power down your little word game. i think your friends will understand., it's actually my geico app...see? ...i just uh paid my bill. did you really? from the plane? yeah, i can manage my policy, get roadside assistance, pretty much access geico 24/7. sounds a little too good to be true sir.
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now with alex wagner, noon eastern on msnbc. >> welcome back, everybody. our continuing coverage of the george zimmerman trial. court is on a five minute break. we're waiting to hear from trayvon martin's mother once again. we have been listening this morning to very compelling testimony in the george zimmerman trial with both
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trayvon martin's mom and older brother taking the stand this morning. she was the first to take the witness stand and she was asked about the anybo911 recording ta the night her son was killed. >> do you think they're yelling help? >> yes. >> what is your -- >> there's gunshots. >> you just heard gunshots? >> yes. >> ma'am, that screaming or yelling, you recognize that? >> yes. >> and who do you recognize that to be, ma'am? >> trayvon benjamin martin. >> that was sybrina fulton. she's been called back to testify once again. let's listen in. >> do you recognize this button here? >> yes. >> is this a button your son always wore, mr. trayvon martin always wore?
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yes. >> no further questions. >> any cross? >> no. >> thank you. may this witness be excused? >> yes, ma'am. >> call your next witness, please. >> we have craig melvin outside the courthouse. that was really quick they were able to get the evidence, a button trayvon martin may have
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worn. >> reporter: during that five minute break, the judge asked the jurors to leave the room nor a second and defense attorneys during that time. mark o'mara, don west, consulted briefly with the defendant, george zimmerman and the attorneys gathered at that bench conference. bernie also spent some time talking to sybrina fulton. this is the medical examiner who performed the autopsy. earlier, there was a stipulation and we were led to believe because of that stipulation he might not testify. again, the medical examiner appears to be taking the stand. could be the last witness for the state, could being the operative word. >> again, he performed the autopsy on trayvon martin. let's listen in. >> you can state your name for
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the record, please, sir. >> good morning. my name. shiping bao. s hirsch p-i-n-g b-a-o. >> what is your occupation, sir? >> i'm the associate medical examiner in volusia and seminole countie counties. >> and if you could just briefly tell us about your specialty, what area of practice you have and your education background, training. >> i received my medical degree in china, coming to the united states in 1992, when i was 29 years old, to pursue american dream. i did my pathology training in birmingham, alabama and finished my forensic pathology fellowship in tarrant county medical examiner's office. after that, i was deputy medical
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examiner in tarrant county, texas, for two years, before coming to florida. i am certified by american court of pathology in anatomic, clinical and forensic pathology. i have medical licenses in the states of florida and texas. i am the fellow member of the national association of medical examine examiners. >> dr. bao, if you could, please explain forensic medical examiner. >> as a medical examiner in forensic pathology, i review ports from investigators and the police department and do autopsies to determine the cause and the manner of death.
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also, i serve as the fact witness and expert witness in the courts, such as today. >> how long have you been with your current position at the medical examiner's office in i guess the seventh circuit in volusia and seminole counties? >> yes. our office cover both vol luusi county and seminole counties. >> can you briefly explain to the jury what an autopsy is? >> autopsy means to see for self, is the postmortem examination of human body to determine the cause and the manner of death. the cause of death is either an injury or disease. injury, such as gunshot wound to the head, stab wound to the
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chest, a blunt force trauma due to motor vehicle accident. disease such as heart disease, cancer or streak. t -- stroke. the manner of death is classified in five categories, homici homicide, one person killed by another, such as in this case, trayvon martin was killed by another person. suici suicide. one killed him or herself. accident, such as motor vehicle accide accident, drowning, nature, such as heart disease or stroke. if we do not have enough evidence to determine the manner of death, we call and determine. autopsy includes the identification of human body, external and internal examinations to record the
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disease, injury and other evidence, plus toxicology tests. >> dr. bao, if we could, approximately how many autopsies have you performed in your career, sir? >> so far, i have done more than 3,000 autopsies, in which about 150 to 200 homicides. i did about 20 court testimonies or depositions. in the last five years, i have done about 300 to 700 cases a year. >> and as you stated, you previously testified in florida as an expert, is that correct? >> yes. >> your honor, at this time i tender the witness -- >> both in texas and florida. >> at this time, i tender the witness in forensic pathology. >> you may so testify. >> i don't have any voir dire. >> thank you very much. dr. bao, in this particular case, you performed an autopsy
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later identified to you as trayvon martin under your medical examiner number 12-24-043? >> yes. >> where was the autopsy performed, dr. bao? >> where? >> yes, sir. >> we did autopsy on february 27th, 2012. i started autopsy at 10:30 p.m. after autopsy, i typed autopsy report start at 4:06 p.m. and finished 5:10 p.m., same day. >> was that done at the medical examiner's office in volusia county? >> yes. daytona beach. >> did you determine the cause of death, sir? >> yes. >> what was cause of death? >> the cause of death was gunshot wound to chest. >> what was the manner of death? >> the manner of death was homicide, meaning he was killed by another person. >> if you could, tell us what trayvon martin's height and
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weight was, sir? what was his height? >> i would like to present to the jury how i did autopsy. >> yeah, please, please. >> trayvon martin came to my office as unidentified human body. he was not identified at the time. all we know, he was black boy, he was shot. he's dead. there is no name, no age. the first thing, we do the x-ray and try to locate the bullets or fragments of bullet. we find out he had some fragm t fragments at his lower chest. his body was sealed in a plastic bag with number 0000517.
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after we look at x-ray, so we open the bag. we saw a black boy 71 inches long, 158 pounds. he had a defect, a hole on the anterior sweatshirt with blood. and the sweatshirt there was another t-shirt, again, there was blood, a defect and soot, s-o-o-t, soot. after we removed the clothes, we saw a defect on his left lower chest three-eighth inch diameter with soot, s-o-o-t with
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aberration around wound with stippling, also called powder tattooing. after we removed the skin, there was defect between left an teriol number 5 and number 6 ribs. so the bullet went through directly from anteriole through posterior through anterior cardiosack,s which the fiber tissue around the heart, through right ventricle of the heart. anterior right ventricle of the heart, through posterior right ventricle of the heart through posterior pericard iosac. he built was recovered in the piri cred
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pi pericard pericardiosac and the bullet went through the right lower lobe of the lung. we have three lobes on the right, two lobes on the right. the bullet went through the right lower lobe of the lung. the two fragments was record in the right pleurl cavity. at that point, i believe trayvon martin was still alive. his heart was still beating. every time his heart was beating, some of the blood would go to from right ventricle to the pulmonary artery, to the lung. and supply his brain. i believe it is my opinion that he was still alive, he was still in pain, he was still in suffering. >> objection, your honor.
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that's not a relevant issue at this time. emotional. >> your objection is relevance? overrule overruled. >> he's in suffering, he's in pain. >> objection. we'd object to speculation. >> no, it's my opinion. >> when there's an objection i have to rule on it, okay, so please just wait. if counsel will please approach? >> sure. >> good morning again, everybody. this is thomas robertson in new york watching this compelling testimony from dr. shiping bao who performed the autopsy on trayvon martin. his testimony was interrupted after saying trayvon he believes was still alive and in pain and suffering and the defense objecting to that testimony. msnbc analyst lisa bloom is with
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me and mr. cobb from "the new yorker." lisa, let me start with you. it seems as if the doctor was reading from a script when he first got on the stand. how likely is it the prosecution would have given him questions ahead of time to be able to answer them. once the prosecution asked what was the height and weight of trayvon martin, he did not follow script and give height and weight information. he went into how the body arrived at his office. >> highly unusual. the way this is supposed to go is question answer question answer. witness s are not allowed to testify in a narrative, meaning just give a lengthy statement or dissertation on a particular issue. i was very surprised when he was asked the height he didn't simply say 5'11", he went off on what he wanted to talk about. we know there was a stipulation advanced to some of his testimony. perhaps it was on this point. you really zeroed in on an interesting point they're now at
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sidebar about. his ability to testify that trayvon martin, after he was shot, remained alive for some period of time, that he was in pain, he was suffering. the defense objected and said this is really not relevant, just for an emotional appeal and the judge said she would allow it. i would expect that's because it is relevant to consider whether trayvon martin remained alive for a period of time, to see if it's consistent with george zimmerman's story. george zimmerman said after he shot him, trayvon martin said, you got me, or words to that effect. he then slumped down. there's a question about whether his hands moved. zimmerman said he left trayvon martin with his hands out. the body was found with the hands underneath. i think whether or not he was still alive afterwards is relevant to the case and perhaps that's why the judge ruled as she did. i think now at sidebar the attorneys are arguing about the extent of this testimony. how long will this witness be able to go on and talk about the suffering trayvon martin endured during the shooting. >> doesn't it matter the doctor
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said, in my opinion. he led into the statement what he was talking about after the shooting and said in my opinion, i believe tropical stoayvon mar alive and went into 3 descriptive terms of suffering. doesn't the jury, they heard the part, in my opinion, they know it's his professional opinion what he believes. >> that's right. he's an expert witness. he's allowed to testify as to medical opinion. he is the medical examiner. lay witnesses like you or i, if we went in, we couldn't testify as to our opinion, only as to facts. expert witnesses can testify as to opinions. >> is it odd it seemed he had prepared answers to certain questions and was reading from a script? >> he's allowed to bring in his report and he's allowed to look at his report. he's supposed to just answer the questions and only allowed to refresh his recollection looking at the report. since that wasn't objected to, i'm assuming to that's been agreed to in advance as part of
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an advance stipulation. >> they're back too work in there. >> did you say he was 5'11" and 158 pounds, is that correct? >> yes. my autopsy report is 71 inches, which is 5'11". when you say he's 5'11" or 71 inch, is there actually a measureme measurement? is the body put on a table and actually something that measured it? >> it's a length. we measure the body in lengths because the dead man cannot stand. it's not height. >> the body after a person dies does not grow or anything, does not shrink, just stays the same? >> yes. >> did you determine his age as being 17 years old, sir? >> one day after autopsy, he was identified by his father. at that point, february 28th, 2012. >> 17 years old? >> yes. >> was his date of birth february 5th of 1995?
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>> yes. february 5th, 1995. >> dr. bao, i will show you some photographs. before i get to this, you briefly mentioned, does your office have a medical investigator go to the scene where the shooting is? yes. >> did one go in this case? >> yes. >> does the investigator make sure the body is sealed in a bag that we will show photographs of? >> yes. >> when you performed the autopsy, do you have assistants helping you? >> yes. >> specifically in this case, two assistants? >> i have two assistants. >> in terms of the autopsy you're going to talk about, the assistants work under your supervision, they're all in the same area as you? >> yes. >> are photographs taken to document the relevant evidence that you will be talking to the jury about? >> yes. >> all right. let's go -- if we could, dr. bao, i will show you state's exhibit 81. do you recognize that
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photograph, sir? >> yes. >> and what is that a photograph of, sir? >> can i have something to point to? >> i apologize. >> for the jury. >> we need a pointer. button right here. may i approach the witness, your honor? >> you may. >> this is a photo of -- >> sorry to interrupt. may i have the physical exhibit so that i can follow along with what's coming? are these all in evidence already? >> the photos -- >> they're in evidence. >> yes. show that there may be -- >> they're right there, if you would like to looking through them or keep them at your desk as long as the clerk gets them back. >> as the court is aware we tried to expedite things by
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pre-marking. >> if you need those you can just looking through and take them back to the -- >> should be 81 through 108. >> okay. >> thank you, your honor. >> you're welcome. >> do you need more time? >> you may proceed. >> state's exhibit 181 -- i'm sorry, 81. i apologize. do you recognize that? tell us what that photograph depicts? >> this is a photo of plastic bag carried trayvon martin. >> okay. >> and would this be -- >> the h means the head, 12 means 2012, year of 2012, 24 means seminole county, 043 means
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this is 43 cases from the year, 150 pound. >> okay. all right. let me show you state's exhibit 82. what is this photograph show? >> this one shows black male, case number, and identified number 3. this is, again, the case number. this is f, feet. >> and then state's exhibit 83, is that a -- >> this is another view of this body bag. feet, and the case number. >> okay. >> and state's exhibit 84, what does that photograph show, sir? >> this is seal. vc me volusia county medical examiner. seal number 0000517. case number nobody can open the bag before me and look at it. >> so, in other words, when the bag comes -- let me go back a second to 81, 82, 83, 84.
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the bag itself is sealed where the body is, trayvon's body is sealed in that container and comes to your office and you all actually cut that or open that up, is that correct? >> yes. >> let me show you state's exhibit 99. you previously talked about an x-ray. tell us, when you said x-ray, is that x-ray taken before the body is removed from the bag? >> no. before the body was removed from the bag, we took the x-ray, tried to locate the bullet or fragments. this is one of them, the spine is right. there is the fragment in the area of the heart. >> okay. >> there are two fragments in the area of the right lung. there's another view of x-ray, spine, the stomach, the colon, arm is right. again, you can see this lead in
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the area of the heart and the two more fragments of jacket in the area of the lung. >> when the body comes to you, dr. bao, is this a photograph showing how the body is exactly in terms of clothing that trayvon martin was wearing, state's exhibit 85? >> yes. >> okay. this is the first photo we took, case number, the defect on the sweatshi sweatshirt, with some debris, and this is blue plastic bag. >> when you keep referring to "defect," you're talking about what ends up killing him, the gunshot wound showing the shirt in the whole. >> defect means the hole. >> okay. >> state's exhibit 86, what does that photograph show, dr. bao? >> this is another view of his
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body, the defect here, case numb number, his hand and two legs. >> so at this point, you're showing -- you're trying to photograph just showing the legs or part of the leg, is that correct? >> normally we use three photos to cover the whole body. >> state's exhibit 87, does that show the -- tell us what it shows, sorry. >> this is another view of trayvon martin, case number, and his shoes and the pants. >> state's exhibit 101, i guess i apologize. after the body comes in, are the clothing then removed and you observe that and then you go to the body itself? >> yes. >> state's exhibit one101, what does that photograph show? >> this is the sweatshirt, whho sweatshirt and it points to the defect on the left and case
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number. >> state's exhibit 102, is that a what you refer to as a defect or hole that caused the gunshot wound? >> yes. caused by gunshot wound. >> okay. >> state exhibit 103, what does that photograph show? >> this is the back view of the sweatshi sweatshirt, appears to be wet. >> state's exhibit 104, what does that photograph show, dr. bao? >> this is another sweatshirt under the holy twsweatshirt sin it is the blood, the defect, the marker. this, the black appears to be soot, s-o-o-t, soot. again, case number. >> all right. and dr. bao, just to make sure that the jury understands,
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state's exhibit -- i'm going back to state's exhibit 85, was that sweatshirt that we just talked about underneath this hoodie or sweatshirt? >> yes. ye yes. >> state's exhibit 104, is that the front part of that sweatshirt? >> yes. >> state's exhibit 105, what does that photograph show, sir? >> this, just the close-up of previous one. again, the defect, the blood, and the soot, which is burnt powder from the gun. >> state's exhibit 106, what does that photograph show, dr. bao? >> this is the back view of shirt. there's no defect, which means there are no exit wound. >> state's exhibit 107, what does that photograph show? >> this is the pants.
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appears to be wet and some debris. >> okay. is that the front part of the pants? >> yeah. front view. >> state's exhibit 108, what does that show? >> it's the back view of the pant pants. >> state's exhibit 88, what does that photograph show, dr. bao? >> this is trayvon martin, 17 years old. this -- >> is that a photograph to showing the upper part of his body? >> yeah. normally, we have three photos. these photos show from head to the abdomen. the defect -- >> this right here is just for photography purposes, been blacked out, is that correct? >> yes. >> there was a defect, left lower chest. other than that, trayvon martin was healthy. there is no disease, no injury.
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other injury, other than gunshot wound. >> and you stated, i believe, he weighed 158 pounds, is that correct? >> yes. we weighed by ourselves. >> state's exhibit 89, what does that photograph show? >> this is another view of trayvon martin, from the chest to the knee. again, we can show the defect, other than this defect, there is no disease, there's no injury. >> while we have this photograph here, dr. bao, i will circle the hands. did you make observations as to the hands, sir? >> yes. >> did you observe any blood? we will talk about an injury you will talk about in the left hand, other than that, did you observe any blood on the hands? >> yeah. other than some small aberrations on fifth left fifth finger and the left fourth finger, there is no other injury, no other disease. >> okay. did you observe any blood on the
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hands? >> no. >> state's exhibit 90, what does that photograph show? >> this is a view of trayvon martin from the thigh to the feet. again, there is no disease, no injur injury. >> dr. bao, state's exhibit 91, what does that photograph show? >> this is the back view of trayvon martin from the head to this area. there's no disease, there are no injur injury. >> state's exhibit 92, what does that photograph show, dr. bao? >> this is another view of trayvon martin's back. there is no disease, no injury. >> state's exhibit 93, what does that photograph show? >> this is soview from trayvon martin's back from the thigh to the feet. again, no disease, no injury. >> dr. bao, i'm now showing you
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state's exhibit 94. what does that photograph show, sir? >> this photograph show the defect on the left lower chest. >> okay. >> three-eighth inch diameter. >> i'm sorry snooncht three-eighth inch diameter round defect. we can use the close-up one. >> yes, sir, i'm coming to that one. before i get into that, you have a measuring thing to show where the injury is so people can see it and also the measurement itself? >> yes. this one has both the scale and the case number. >> let me show you state's exhibit 95. show us, what does that show, dr. bao? >> this photograph shows the defect with ring aberration around the defect, which is consistent with entrance wound.
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also, the soot, s-o-o-t. and the 2 by 2 inby-2x2 inch st, powder tattooing which is aberrations caused by arm burnt powder from the gun. >> dr. bao, how can you positively say that what i'm circling right here is the entrance wound, the gunshot wound, how can you say that's the entrance wound? >> because the entrance wound is different from exit wound. exit wound normally elongated and normally, there is no soot, no stippling, this case is one of the easiest case in my office. there is no exit wound, has to be entrance wound. so, in other words, you find the fragments or bullet inside his body, there's no exit? >> yeah. i have 100% confidence i look at this wound, i can make judgment
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this is entrance wound of intermediate range in the first three seconds. >> intermediate rang in? >> in first three seconds, when i look at this wound with 100% confidenc confidence. >> dr. bao, i believe that's even a closer up of that gunshot wound -- i'm sorry, state's exhibit 96. tell us, if you can -- you have the green marker, go ahead and tell us- >> this is the fat adi pos pose tissue under the skin. this is the tissue, fat and skin consistent with entrance wound. >> i will ask you a few minutes about the soot. is this what you're talking about when you say soot or stippling? >> the black one, this soot. >> okay.
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>> this punk tuating aberrations is stippling. >> is that from the gunshot wound or bullet? >> yes. >> state's exhibit number 97, what does that photograph show? >> this is superficial aberration caused by blunt force trau trauma, one-quarter by one-eighth inch aberration, left fourth finger. >> you also find something on the pinky finger on the fifth? sn>> two very small, i cannot en use ruler to measure them, two of them, much less than one-11/ inch, two aberrations on left fifth finger. >> other than the gunshot wound that you talked about, which i'm going back for the record, state's exhibit number 96 and
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state's exhibit number 97, the injuries you described to the left. is this the left hand? >> yes. left hand. >> did you find any other injury on any part of his body? did you find any injuries to this is right handed an all? >> no. >> his right hand at all? >> no. >> state's exhibit 100. is this what you ended up recovering from the body, sir? >> this is lead from bullet. i record this one in the per pericardio sac in the right century capital se ventricle of the heart. this is behind right cavity of the right lower lobe of the lung. >> let me go back to state's exhibit number 96 or 95 for context. tell us if you could, dr. bao,
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when that bullet entered the chest of trayvon martin, what happened? how did he die, if you could, just tell the jury. >> the bullet went straight directing it from the front to the back. with perforations of anterior wall of the space between fifth and sixth ribs. the bullet went through the pericardio sac. went through right ventricle of the heart, went through the posterior wall of right ventricle of the heart. we recovered 1700 milliliters of
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blood in the right plural cavity. 1,000 milliliters of blood in the left pleural cavity. i believe he was alive for 1 to 10 minutes after he was shot. his heart was beating until there was no blood left at the point his heart stopped and his complete silent. >> okay. >> this was a fatal shot, correct? this is an obvious question. >> there is no chance he can survive. no chance, zero. >> if you could, in terms of the track of the bullet, does it come straight or is it at an angle either going up or down on the body?
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i know you'd have to look at the body anatomically correct? >> in my opinion, straight from the front to the back. >> a straight shot right into the heart, basically? >> yes. >> you mentioned already, i want you, if you could, explain to the jury, when you say stippling and soot, what you mean. i progress to state's exhibit number 96, going back to that. if you could, explain it, if you could, what we mean by stippling and soot, what we mean by that? >> the meaning of soot and stippling, so we can make a diagnosis of intermediate range. in my autopsy report, i give three ranges of shooting. contact, intermediate and indeterminate. >> okay. >> contact is what, the muzzle from the gun itself.
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>> contact is complete from this one -- contact entrance room is complete different from this intermediate one. >> this is not a contact 2001 t -- contact wound from the skin itself? >> i look at contact every day in my office. if there was contact, there would be skin aberration and imprint fiber of the clothes. in this case, i have 100% confidence this is intermediate range of shooting. >> when you say intermediate range, what is that range? are you able to determine or give your opinion as to what to the range could be? >> by definition. >> yes. >> intermediate range is if you see the stippling. if you see the stippling in the intermediate range. if you see intermediate range, you needs to see the stippling. >> in terms of the range, what
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is this range you would opine is consistent with this? >> i look at many books, i try to find out what's the range for intermediate range. >> is that -- >> first, i need to explain to the jury. the range is my opinion, not the fact. the fact is there is defect, soot, there is stippling. i have my opinion. the fact is different from opinion. for the fact, there is no right or wrong, just truth of force. >> i object to the witness's characterization of facts versus opinion. >> let me ask you a question specifically. i'll be glad to re -- >> but fact opinion is very important in the justice system. >> hold on, dr. bao.
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>> you have to go ahead and let him re-ask the question, sir. >> let me ask you a question. >> yes. >> there are different ranges, in terms of, you mentioned contact and then there's intermediate. does that range from .4 inches up to 4 feet? >> yes. i look at many books. the clothes in the book -- >> i will ask you about. >> the range is not effect, opinion. >> i will object. >> you will have to wait for the question and then provide the answer. >> dr. bao, we will get in into -- assuming there was no clothes, you had the intermediate range, which is .4 inches up to 4 feet, correct? >> yes. i did not measure them. all i have is from the book. >> yes, sir. >> is my opinion. >> yes, sir. i will get to your opinion explaining to the jury. >> very important. >> yes, sir. did you determine that since he was wearing clothes, this would be called an dark d.c.
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what's the word? >> intermediate target. they are two different terms. tell us about that. >> okay. in ter me intermediary target i-n-t-e-r-m-e-d-i-a-r-y, in s r intermediary target is the object between the bullet and the target in clothing, the clothing, materials in the pock pocket, in other case, could be car windows, could be arms. when you have in ttermediary target, it is more difficult to determine the range of shooting. >> so in this case, you h had -- you had clothe iing -- >> yes. >> you had two sweatshirts that
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were acting as that, correct? >> yes. >> does that help you account why you're saying, in terms of the range, that that served as an in between the bullet or, i'm sorry, the muzzle of the gun and the skin, is that correct? >> no. >> the clothing? >> no, it's different. tell me what effect the clothing had. >> the clothing will block some soot and some material from the gunsh gunshot. i want to explain to you h how -- how i did this autopsy, how i determine the range. >> yes, sir, please explain to the jury -- >> the intermediain tetermediar definition, not by measurement. no effecfacts, just opinion. >> you're going on what is classified by in ttermediary
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range? >> by definition. >> you're not measuring. >> nobody can use the eye to determine the range. is there no such thing. >> you mentioned the clothing as serving as some barrier between the muzzle of the gun and the body itself, is that correct? >> yes. now, based on your examination of the clothing and also the body, do you believe there was some contact with the clothing by the muzzle of the gun? >> i believe there's loose contact. >> loose? >> loose, l-o-o-s-e. >> okay. tell us about that. >> because, yeah,the contact including loose contact and hard contact, h-a-r-d. if it was hard contact, i would see some -- the imprint of fiber of the clothes over here. so i did not see that, so i believe this is loose contact to the clothes, which cause the
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stippling pattern on the skin. >> and can you determine how loose it was, other than it was just loose? can you say how loose it was? >> i don't know. just loose contact. >> now, how about the fact that you had two sweatshirts, what's referred to as the hoodie and another sweatshirt? does that add an a ddditional barrier in terms of loose? >> i cannot tell. i want to talk about the position of the body when shot. in the movies and tv, they tell you exactly what happened. can you say, based on autopsy exactly the position trayvon martin was, in terms of standing up, sitting down, lying down, on top of somebody, below somebody, are you able to say u unequivocally the position of the body when he was shot? >> i have no fact, i have zero opinion. >> okay. can you say unequivocally he was
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shot from the front, in other words, somebody -- the gun was in front of him when he was shot? >> yes. i do know that. >> is there any dispute about that? >> no. >> now, i want to talk about how long trayvon martin was possibly alive, in terms of you've already opined about that. i want to explore a little bit more by some questions. in terms of -- thank you, your honor. in terms of is death immediate and i want to talk about whether he went unconscious or not. do you understand? >> yes. >> my question is, would he have been unconscious a few minutes based on your opinion. >> first, i need to explain to the jury how i have the opinion. opinion is based on the fact and my lifetime learning experience.
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>> you're talking about other autopsies you've done in your life? >> yes. i believe trayvon martin was a live for 1-10 minutes after he was shot. >> so, you're going to give a range, in terms of possible which the longest, correct? >> yes. give margin of error. the reason i give 10 minutes because just three weeks ago, while -- >> dr. bao, let me stop you, they don't need to know about your other -- you've got prior cases you've dealt with. we'll leave it at that. that's fine. >> okay. >> because this opinion. >> you're talking about your opinion is based on your experience. >> yes. >> okay. we can't get into specifics but the jury understands that. let me ask you another question about that. are you saying that his brain is still typically alive, in other words? >> yes. >> that's what you mean by still alive in terms of conscious, his brain is still alive? >> yes. >> he can still feel pain, in other words? >> yes. >> okay. are you saying that he could move or he couldn't in temps t
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can you say one way or another? >> in my experience, another autopsy i did three weeks ago, i don't believe he can move after shot. >> okay. >> let me go to the bullet fragments you talked about already. your honor, may i approach the witness? >> yes, you may. pleural. judge, she needs to change paper.
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>> good morning. this is thomas roberts in new york headquarters. we continue to follow the george zimmerman trial and dr. bao the medical examiner did the autopsy on trayvon martin. the biggest news to come out from the testimony of dr. bao is he believes trayvon martin could have lived for 1 to 10 minutes after that fatal shot that trayvon martin received straight to the heart. his right ventricle was injured by the bullet, two different holes made and dr. bao testifying trayvon martin had no chance of survival after that fatal shot. let's go back and listen, they're looking at the bullet now.
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dr. bao, i'm going back to state's exhibit 89. you mentioned the hands and you mentioned an abrasion in his
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left hand. i want to ask you specifically about state's exhibit 89. when you did the autopsy and observed the hands, other than the abrasions we will talk about, did you observe any blood to his hands? >> no. >> did you observe any injury to his hands other than the one documented? >> no. >> objection, asked and injured. >> sustained. >> when you observed injuries to those hands, would you have taken photographs of those injuries? if you observed injuries to those hands, would you have taken photographs of those injuries? >> yes. i should. >> i will show you what's depicted in this photograph. if you could, tell us about this right here that i'm circling right here. when you said abrasion, what do you mean by that? >> it's a super offici official -- superficial injury from blunt force trauma this injury, in my opinion, could have happened before trayvon
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martin met george zimmerman. >> it's not responsive to a question. this is again a narrative. >> overruled but go ahead and ask your next question. >> my question is are you able to say when this occurred? tell us, in terms of what you mean, when this occurred, when this injury could have occurred? >> this could have occurred two hours before he died, could have happened right after shooting on the way down to the ground, could have happened during the physical struggle. >> okay. so it could have happened two hours before he even came into contact with the person who shot him, could have happened during the shooting and then even after he was shot, he fell to the ground? >> yes. >> if you could, tell us state's exhibit number 97, the size of this abrasion? >> one-quarter by one-eighth. >> when we say "abrasion," can you compare that to other types
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of injuries to the skin in terms of contusions or laceration, can you tell us what you mean by abrasion versus the other two? >> there's two types of ground force trauma. first, superficial injury of the skin we call aberration, second, laceration, means there is break of the skin which caused the bleeding. third, is a contusion, means skin is still inta tact, but the is hemorrhage under the skin. aberration, laceration, contusion. >> so you're getting from less severe to more severe, is that correct? >> yes. yes. >> so the abrasion would be the least severe, is that correct? >> yes. >> you didn't have any evidence of contusion to this finger right here or did you have any evidence of contusion? >> no. >> you mentioned there was something on his -- on his, i guess, the fifth finger or pinky of his left hand.
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am i sinkling it right there? >> yes. these two small aberrations, too sma small. i have no opinion. >> would this abrasion cause bleeding? in other words, do you expect bleeding to occur from that abrasion. >> the blood still inside. >> i'm sorry? >> the blood still in the capilla capillary, why we see this red stuff. >> would this be classified blie a scratch to the skin? >> yes. >> dr. bao, as part of your autopsy, did you also -- i apologize, your honor, we don't need the light back on. thank you. may i approach the witness again, your honor? dr. bao, as part of the autopsy, did you do what you refer to as fingernail scrapings? >> yes. >> let me show you -- >> the technician -- i did not do that.
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yes. >> state's exhibit 191, you recognize that, sir? >> yes. >> are those the two -- will call them as little sticks. i don't know what you refer to them as. >> yes. are those each used one for the right hand and one for the left hand? >> yes. >> what is done? does the stick actually go northea underneath the fingernail? like the right and left? >> every fingers. m >> also, as part of the autopsy, is dna or a blood card taken from the trayvon martin's body? specifically, state's exhibit 186? >> yes.
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>> finally, sir, let me show you state state's exhibit number 98. is this what's called an identification photograph? >> yes. >> your honor at this time i believe there is a stipulation the court could read that to the jury. >> yes, ladies and gentlemen, the state of florida and the defendant hereby stipulate to the following, the body examined on february 27th, 2012 by dr. shiping bao, bearing medical examiner case number 12-24-043 is that of trayvon benjamin marti martin. >> dr. bao, i know you talked about the gunshot wound entrance was from the front and it was
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straight to the heart, is that correct? >> yes. >> okay. >> your honor -- >> please keep your questions or comments to me, not to each othe other. >> the state's exhibit number 6 96 -- i apologize, this should be actually 95. i guess, is this the heart would be directly behind this gunshot wound or where would it be if you were looking at this photograph right here, state's exhibit number 93? >> i cannot tell from this photo. we removed the skin, removed the rib. at that point, we saw the pericardio sac. then this is the heart. you cannot tell. >> you can't tell from this photograph itself -- >> you cannot tell from this photo the bullet went through the heart. you have to open the body to see tha
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that. >> thank you, your honor. if i may have a moment, your honor? >> yes, you may. >> i don't have any further questions. >> thank you. cross. >> could we take a short recess? >> ladies and gentlemen, we'll take a 10 minute recess. please put your notepads face down on the chair and follow low deputy jarvis back into the jury room. >> we're watching the testimony this morning of the medical examiner right there, dr. shiping bao, he performed the autopsy of trayvon martin's body after the fatal encounter with george zimmerman. very interesting testimony from the doctor this morning. our legal analyst, lisa bloom is watching, along with craig m melvin outside the courthouse in sanford, florida and joining me, dr. cobb, writing for "the new
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yorke yorker". lisa, let me start with you on the testimony of dr. bao and jumped ahead a little bit provided by the prosecution for the answers. certainly the answers are very telling of the situation trayvon martin was in after this fatal shooting saying he could have lived up to 10 minutes, the shot could have happened as far as 4 feet away and his hands are basically clean except for a small abrasion that could have happened prior to the encounter with george zimmerman or on the way down after being shot. so it really leaves a lot to the imagination of what really happened, according to george zimmerman's account. >> right. one interesting question is trayvon martin was right-handed. if indeed trayvon martin did punch george zimmerman in the face, and we see the injuries on zimmerman's nose, why is it that trayvon martin has no marks on his hand whatsoever? not a contusion? not an abrasion, not a scratch, not a laceration, nothing. i would give this witness
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relatively low marks for style. this is a professional witness, medical examiner who presumably testifies all the time and seemingly had a difficult time keeping his answers to the questions proposed to him, a relatively elmen tarry thing. on content he was pretty good and introduced really interesting testimony about trayvon martin remaining alive from 1-10 minutes after the gunshot. we know the paramedics arrived about 10 minutes after he was shot and they pronounced him immediately dead at the scene. the medical examiner said trayvon martin may have remained alive with brain activity, experiencing pain and suffering but he would not have been able to move. that's important because george zimmerman has said that he spread trayvon martin's hands out on the ground. he left him with his hands out but we know that trayvon martin's body was found with hands underneath. if he was unable to move, how did that happen? that's an unanswered question in this case.
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stay tuned for cross-examination. that's when you can really see how witnesses do and that will be after this short recess. >> lisa, what do you make of the testimony of the distance of how far away the shot could have been fired? because, according to his testimony, up to 4 feet. >> right. intermediate range. with an in ttermediary surface, namely the two sweatshirts trayvon martin was wearing. this is going to be a focal point on the cross-examination that is to come. we know the defense is going to argue the physics of this case supporting zimmerman's self-defense claim and says he was down on his back and trayvon martin straddling him. martin was in a position because of gravity, trayvon martin's shirt would have separated from his body and the bullet went at intermediate range through the shirt and body in a way the defense says this is self-defense supporting the positioning, as zimmerman
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claims. >> with the testimony we got there from dr. bao saying this was a straight shot to the heart. it left two holes in the right ventricle of trayvon martin's body the doctor testifying there was literally no chance of survival of thatnay -- fatal injury. craig melvin is outside. we've been seeing dr. bao and the prosecution reference autopsy shots in the room. we know trayvon's father stayed in the room and that was it. trayvon's brother and mom departed. >> reporter: yeah. that's right, thomas. tracy martin in the courtroom. we saw shots during his testimony here. you could see him looking in the direction of those photos being shown. we should note we are not showing those photos because many of them, as you might imagine, are too graphic for cable television during the day. tracy martin, not looking away, looking at those photos. we should also note here, we've
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been paying very close attention to how the jurors are taking in all of this information. their response to certain pieces of evidence. their response to certain witnesses. just heard from one of our producers inside the courtroom that said, the jurors seem to be most engaged, seem to be taking the most notes when they were looking at the abrasions on trayvon martin's hands, as you and lisa just pointed out, two abrasions on the left hand, we found out earlier from sybrina fulton, trayvon martin was in fact right-handed. that seemed to be getting comparatively a little bit more attention from the jury. again, right now on a 10 minute recess. we expect after this recess that the defense will begin it's vigorous cross-examination of dr. bao, the medical examiner, the medical examiner who just testified. >> you bring up the point about the hands, testimony again, that abrasion on the left hand. no signs of any damage to trayvon martin's right hand and
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also they talked about doing the testing underneath his fing fingernails looking for any today evidence and nothing found on the nails of trayvon martin. we will take a quick break and be back with you after that. ♪
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ventricle of trayvon martin's heart. dr. bao is saying essentially no matter what, this was a fatal shot, no chance of survival. our msnbc analyst, lisa bloom is watching this. as we talk about the account george zimmerman gives of trayvon martin straddling over him and gravity again working in the favor here of george zimmerman, talking about the fact blood was trickling down his throat because of the fight. in essence, after a shot was fired, wouldn't gravity work from blood from trayvon to splatter on to george zimmerman? how come none of that was found? sn>> that's a very good questio. we know that trayvon martin was wearing two sweatshirts. the bullet went through, of course, both sweatshirts into his body. we'd have to examine the amount of blood on the inner sweatshirt and outer sweatshirt. i do believe the dna expert testified there was some of trayvon martin's dna on george zimmerman. that could not be determined
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what kind of bodily fluid it was. presumably, that was blood. >> lisa, when we hear from dr. bao on cross, where do you think that they will look for weak spots in what we've heard so far about his testimony? because he has given an opinion and framed a narrative that this young man, after being fatally shot, was in pain, was in suffering and lived up to 10 minutes. obviously that has to take an effect on the jury who has to look at the autopsy photos of trayvon martin. >> the pain and suffering testimony, while very emotional and sad, is not particularly legally relevant, especially not during the guilt phase. that's something that could come in later if zimmerman is convicted and we're considered sentencing, the pain and suffering of the victim would at that point be relevant but at the guilt phase, the only question is whether this is self-defense or murder or manslaughter if the judge
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ultimately gives that lesser included defense to the jury. zimmerman admits he shot and killed trayvon martin, that's not really in dispute, the fact he took the gun and intentional ly pointed pointit at trayvon m and pulled the trigger is something the jury knows. >> there is the potential tracy martin could be called. we heard from sybrina fulton, trayvon's mother and jahvaris martin, his brother but haven't heard from trayvon's dad. >> i'll be honest, i asked tracy martin this morning in the lobby of the hotel whether he would be called today. he indicated to me that he did not know. now, obviously he could have just been telling me that but there is a chance he might not know. we do know this. the state is expected to rest it's case today. it remains to be seen whether
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the defense starts it's case this afternoon or whether judge nelson adjourns this afternoon at some point and the defense begins to present it's case monday. we do know judge nelson has demonstrated time and again she is very concerned about the length of this trial. the jury has been sequestered, will be sequestered the duration of this trial. she seems to be pretty hell bent on moving this thing along. you guys were also just talking about the heart is still beating and trayvon martin being in pain, we should note that there was, of course, immediately an objection to that and -- to that testimony being offered by dr. bao. judge nelson sustained that objection so we don't know what the jury will be given in terms of instruction with regards to that testimony. >> all right, guys. i want to say stand by because they've gotten back to work in the courtroom and on cross with the defense. let's listen. >> setting the stage a little bit, when you prepare to do an
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autop autopsy, you use technicians to assist you, is that correct? >> yes. >> and in this instance, you had two technicians, correct? >> yes. >> priscilla feller and ben dorton? >> yes. >> each of them had a specific role? >> yes. >> would you tell the jury, please, what the role was for each of those assistants? >> ben dalton helped me with the autopsy. priscilla fuller, she helped me to write out the fact during autopsy. and also she put all the evidence together, because she had the clean hand. ben and me, we do autopsy, our gloves are contaminated, so the priscilla will write down what i tell her to write down. i will say, there is defect
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between fifth and sixth ribs, she will write it down. >> before you get to that point, though, of course, there has to be a preliminary inspection. >> yes. >> and the bag is opened. and you see the individual there in the manner in which they were transported from the other location? >> yes. >> in this instance, there were no plastic bags around mr. martin's hands, is that correct? >> yes. correct. >> you're familiar with that term? >> yes. >> and it's a crime scene investigation type technique, where if there may be blood evidence or other kinds of evidence on the hands -- >> yes- >> they can be literally put in a plastic bag and sealed? >> there is no blast stick bag on the hand. plastic. there is just the body bag. >> what you're saying is trayvon
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martin's hands did not have those plastic bags that sometimes accompany a body from this scene of the incident to the medical examiner? >> actually, you cannot use plastic bag on the hand. it is the standard. it is the right practice that every time you should use paper bag instead of plastic bag on the hand. on the body is different story. you cannot -- >> let's talk about the hands just for a moment. >> okay. >> because i'm assuming that we saw a sequence here, with the evidence photos of the way that mr. martin's body was presented to you, and to your staff. >> yes. >> there were no paper bags on the hands. >> yes. >> which meant that they were not put on the hands at the crime scene, the scene of the incident? >> yes. they did not do that.
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>> you are familiar with that procedure? >> yes. >> the purpose of it is to preserve the in telling dwg bei integrity of any evidence that might be on the hands? >> yes. >> you would have shown a photograph of that, i take it? >> yes. when the hand is bagged, we take the photo before the bag will be removed. >> in this instance, am i correct, that mr. martin's body remained at the scene prior to it being transported by delivery service for about three hours? >> i do not have that information. >> don't you have the not notes -- i'm sorry -- from your investigator that went there? >> i did not go there. >> right. do you have the notes she would have kept about her arrival time and the time -- >> yeah, i do. do i have the note. >> when her name is tara malphurs, tara clark, correct? same person? >> yes. >> what time did she get there?
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>> in the narrative, she wrote -- >> no, i don't want a narrative reading, i'd like you just to tell me what time did she indicated that she got there? >> this is not my writing. i just read it. it is not my evidence, it is not my opinion, it is other people's reading, so i just tell you that -- >> these are notes that miss malphurs would have made in connection with the work that she did on behalf of your office? >> yes. >> it is not part of the autopsy report. >> correct. but you have access to these notes. >> yes. right here, i read to you. i cannot remember this numbers. >> agreed. >> yes. >> the question though precisely is, what time did she get there? >> approximately 2144 hours,
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means 9:00 p.m., 44 minutes. >> the incident is -- occurred around a quarter after 7:00? >> in the notes here, she sa said -- >> well, you can use that as a frame of reference. there's lots of evidence that the event occurred around a quarter after 7:00. so -- >> i ask the witness be allowed to answer the question and respond to the question. >> he may do so. >> okay. >> your honor -- >> if you want, you can read the note. >> no, the question is this. >> this is not my note. it could be wrong. i'm under the oath, right? if i give you wrong information, it's perjury. do you understand? i'm under the oath. i cannot give you wrong informati information, so it is not my notes. >> let me ask this question to try to clear that up.
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>> okay. >> assume, for your answer -- >> yes. >> that the event occurred about a quarter after 7:00. >> that's what you say, i don't know. i really don't know the information. the timeline at the scene. >> yes. please assume that the event occurred about a quarter after 7:00. >> okay. if you are right. >> if tlf here is any dispute i that the jury can resolve that at some point. just as a rough time frame, a quarter after 7:00 is when the event occurred, correct, for our purpos purposes? >> i don't know. >> i'm asking you to agree, i'm just asking you to assume that's when the event occurred. >> you can assume that. >> yes. miss malphurs arrived at the scene about 2 1/2 hours later, correct? >> i don't know. again, i do not have that information. you cannot ask me yes or no
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question. >> based upon her notes that are part of your record- >> okay. >> she says she arrived at the scene at 2144? >> yes. right here. >> that's about quarter of 10:00? that's about 2 1/2 hours after the event which we have assumed, for our purposes, occurred at 7:15. >> okay. it's not yes or no. i just say okay. >> and that in her notes, she left at about 10 minutes after 10:00. >> i did not see that on my note. >> do you have the notes that she made in connection with the case that are -- if i could approach the witness, please? >> yes, you may. >> dr. bao, let me direct your attention to -- >> okay. this is what i have. you may have different things, so -- >> no. that's the same. right here.
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>> okay. cleared the scene at approximately 2210. >> yes. >> that's tsm. that's miss malphurs? >> yes. right. >> she left about 10 after 10:00. >> yes. >> so if we're assuming for the moment the event occurred about a quarter after 7:00, it was just about three hours that mr. martin's body was at the scene? >> yes. oka okay. >> at least to some degree, unprotected from the elements? correct? >> objection, improper -- >> i don't know. >> factual basis for that. >> please rephrase your question. >> you cannot ask me because i don't know. if it's yes, it's wrong, is no is wrong. >> you know the hands weren't bagged j.c. correct? >> yeah. that i know because i did not see that. >> uh-huh. you know the body was at the scene about three hours? >> i don't know -- all i know,
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his body was at the scene for some period of time. i do not have timeline. i do not -- prepare to say this here. >> wouldn't you have reviewed the notes of the investigator as part of your overall understanding of the event in anticipation and preparation for this autopsy? >> no. actually, is not. >> so you don't have any idea wh what's supposed to have happened when you do the autopsy? >> all i know was, in the morning, i did autopsy. he was shot and he's dead. >> so you had no idea what any had said about what had happened the night before? >> we had -- normally -- i do not remember -- i told mr. o'mara during deposition, did not have any -- >> let me be precise with the question. >> okay. >> you did the autopsy without any knowledge, having reviewed any information, about what was
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supposed to have happened the night before? >> i was told, again, i do not have any recall, i do not have any memory of the day of autopsy. i cannot answer your -- any question about that. all i have is the notes i have. >> let me be sure in understand. >> without notes, i cannot tell you any fact, without notes, i cannot tell you any opinion. >> okay. what you're saying today to me and to the jury -- >> yes. >> is you have no memory- >> yes. >> of any of the events surrounding the autopsy itself? >> yes. i tried very hard. >> is that true? >> true. 100% true. i tried -- >> if you might let me ask -- >> let me explain to you. >> objection. >> just one second, please. >> my objection is he's not allowed to answer the question. >> we have to -- i said this before, we have to allow the court reporter to take one person speaking down at a time. if you will, please, after your
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question, allow dr. bao to answer. dr. bao, after you have answered, wait for the next question. thank you. you may proceed. >> so -- >> again- >> i couldn't tell you why -- >> stop. >> may i ask the question, your honor. >> i didn't answer your first question. >> dr. bao, please wait. there is another question. if he has not finished answering the first question, he will be allowed to do so. please wait for your question until he finishes his answer. >> okay. >> i tried. >> could we read the question back? i think it was a yes or no question. >> i didn't explain to the jury why this happened. >> your honor, may the witness please -- >> why i cannot remember anything on the day of autopsy and other people can remember. so i did intensive study and i tried many times myself, two days -- a few days before your deposition, which is nine months after my autopsy, i came to my
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office from 8:00 a.m. -- >> your honor, he's not responsive to your question. >> yeah. i explain why i did not remember. i put everything in front of me -- >> your honor, please ask the witness -- >> to respond to the question. >> i tried very hard. i do not remember. >> once more, we cannot interrupt each other. dr. bao, are you finished with your answer. >> i need to explain to the jury. >> you have. we're ready for the next question. >> no. >> please allow -- >> i do not remember anything, zero. >> okay. >> anything on the day of autopsy. i depend on my notes. >> we understand, sir. please stop speaking so mr. west can ask the next question. >> okay. go ahead. >> thank you. go ahead. >> understanding that you have no memory of the events surrounding the autopsy. >> yeah. no memory. >> your testimony today then relies upon your autopsy report? >> yes. the notes. and the photos. >> are the notes different than
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the report itself? >> no different. >> so the autopsy report are the notes that you're talking about? >> yes. >> so, as we were starting a moment ago, let's talk about the procedure. >> yes. >> at what point do you become -- this is generally, now. >> yeah. >> because i know you don't remember this one. >> yes. >> but generally, at what point do you see the body? >> generally speaking, it is not a fact that every morning we have conference at 8:30 a.m. then we start to do autopsy. if it's homicide, as is in this case, we check identification. we open the bag and take photos. >> may i interrupt a moment to
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ask a more precise question because i don't think this is responsive -- >> now, we have three people. now, i'm speaking so four people speaking at time. >> please state your objection. >> my objection, he's not being allowed to answer the question. >> it's okay. it's my job. >> my objection is he's not responsive to the question and i would like to ask a specific question. >> okay. >> wait for your next question. >> okay. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> as part of the autopsy protocol generally speaking. >> yes. >> at what point do you see the body? is it as soon as the bag is opened? after the body has been undressed and clothing collected? after the initial photographs are taken? after the fingernails are scraped? at what point do you see the body? >> as soon as bag opens. sometimes i open. sometimes technician open, sometimes we open together. as soon as we open the bag, we see the body. >> in your autopsy report, you say the body is viewed
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unclothed. >> yes. that's start from -- that's autopsy report. >> right. in the report, you say -- this is your report. >> yes. >> the body is viewed unclothed. >> after we remove the clothes, then body is unclothed. >> my question is, are you testifying you saw mr. martin's body fully clothed or did you see the body after your technicians unclothed the body and prepared the body for autopsy? >> i was there the whole time. the body received in the plastic bag, we opened the bag, we removed the clothes. autopsy report start from without clothes. i do not describe the clothes. >> how do you know you did that in this case then? >> i do not know. i do that every case. >> that's your regular protocol? >> yeah. that's my opinion, not of the fact. >> let's talk about what happens
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then. >> yes. >> the bag is opened. >> yes. >> and then i assume the body is removed from the bag? >> yes. the bag is removed from the body. >> all right. and the body then is clothed. >> yes. >> and then photographed? >> yes. photographed before we removed them. >> yes. do you take those photographs? >> normally, i do not. >> do you know who took them in this case? >> either ben dalton or priscilla. >> and those would be the photos taken of mr. martin's clothed body, correct? >> yes. >> and then after those photographs are taken, what happens next? >> the ben dalton, he would remove the clothes. >> and where would you be during this? >> i look at the -- i don't
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recall what i did at the time -- but generally speaking, i could look at the hand, look at the face. >> but you don't know if you did in this case? >> no, i do not remember. >> it's possible then that mr. dor t dorton would do his assignment and then remove his clothing? >> that's his job. he was trained to do that. i have full confidence he did right. >> so you don't know if you witnessed any of that, you just know at some point -- >> i was there. i should be there. i believe, without the fact, it is my opinion i should be there. >> i agree, you should have been there. >> yes. >> so you're not sure if you would, you believe you were. >> yes. >> and then did you -- do you know what happens to the clothing at the point that it's removed from the body? >> say again? your question? >> what happens to the clothing
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when it's removed from the body? >> we will pick them and put in the paper bag i gave to the police department. >> is that what happened in this case? >> should be. >> did it? >> should be. i told you, i do not remember anythi anything. i explained why i did not remember and other people remember. ve very -- what happened too years ago. my brain is not too bad so i did a -- >> your honor, may i ask a specific question and elicit a specific answer? >> you tried -- you asked me the question, i don't know -- >> what i want to know in this case. >> yes. >> was the clothing removed and packaged in paper bags. >> i don't know. but should be. >> it should have been. >> yes. >> and you knew that the sweatshirt was damp? >> i saw it from the photo.
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all my memory is new memory, okay. >> so, in other words, you snkn, from your training and experience as a medical examiner, if clothing is wet, it needs to be packaged in paper bags? >> yes. >> and if it's -- if plastic bags are used -- >> actually before we pack them we let them dry a little bit. >> did that happen in this case? >> again, i tell you, i did not know. >> okay. so the procedure would have been -- >> yes. >> to dry the clothing -- >> yes. >> and package it in paper. >> yes. >> but you don't know if that's what happened here? >> yes. in this case, i do not remember, i cannot tell you anything. >> you do know -- >> beyond my notes. >> you do know from the photograph of the sweatshirt, hooded sweatshirt -- >> yes. >> it looks wed? >> >> yes. it looks wet? >> it would be a violation of protocol to take a wet sweatshirt and seal it in a plastic bag? >> there is no plastic bag other
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than plastic bag carry the body. >> so, in other words, that you would never, in your lab, take a wet piece of clothing, that's potentially evidence, and seal it in a plastic bag? >> if anybody do that, he'll be gone next day. he'll be fired. because this is very basic concept for us to use paper bag instead of plastic bag. this is rule. >> a no-brainer? >> yeah. a no-brainer. everybody do that. i have confidence they do that. >> all right. so the clothing is removed, and packaged, as appropriate? >> yes. that would include shoes? >> yes. >> you saw shoes in the photo? >> yes. i saw shoes. >> do you know where the shoes are? by any chance?
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>> now? >> uh-huh. >> i have no idea where it is right now. when body come in, shoes is on fee feet. >> the photograph that you saw here today showed the shoes? >> yes. >> and you believed those are the shoes that mr. martin was we wearing when his body was presented to you? >> yeah. before i came here, i spent hundreds, hundreds of hours review the photos, review my not notes. all this thing i tell you today is based on my notes, is new memory, is not of the old memory on the day of autopsy. i don't believe anybody can remember anything two years ago. i did the research about that. the memory could be false memory, old confused memory, recent -- >> are you reading from something now? snow yeah, yeah. i typed down myself >> may i see what you're referring to, please? may i approach the witness?
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>> because i puzzled by that, i could not remember the thing and other people can. >> your honor, may the witness not answer until i've had a chance -- >> yes. >> show me what you're looking at. >> before this testimony, i told you, i spent hundreds, hundreds of hours. i typed down potential answers to your potential question. this is my notes. >> may i see them, please? >> i'd rather you do not see this, my notes. nobody saw that before. >> okay. >> dr. bao, if you're going to be reading from your notes, both attorneys are entitled to see what you're reading from. >> okay. >> so please allow him to do so. you may approach the witness. >> only the notes that you prepared in anticipation of your testimony today. >> okay. so you will return to me as soon as possible? >> yes.
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>> your honor, may i look at those at those notes, too, your honor? >> yes, you may. >> your honor, perhaps it would be convenient if we made a copy for counsel. i can continue with some questioning, and then we can look at them with our leisure. >> you can make your copies. >> so they can make a copy? it's my -- it's my notes. i type myself. nobody read them before. >> okay. these are not the actual report that you rendered. >>. no. it's my personal note. i use my own time in the evening, weekend. i type this -- >> counsel would like to take them and sit down and look over them. you may do so an return them to dr. bao.
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hi, everybody. this is thomas roberts in new york. just want to bring you up to speed on what we are watching here. msnbc legal analyst, lisa bloom, fill us in. the witness that dr. bao is being, he wants to be very factual and also provide great context to the jury, but it seems as if he is not being allowed to from the defense side of things. >> well, i look at this as a trial lawyer. he is a professional witness. he's the medical examiner. this is a man who presumably comes in and testifies frequently as part of his job responsibilities. so he should be familiar with the rules of court. one of those rules is, you need to directly answer the question that is asked of you. you're not permitted to go off
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on topics that you may find interesting, that you may think the jury is interested in but were not asked of you. for example, just before the attorneys got this information that they are mulling over now, he went off and started talking about memory and false memory and how interesting it is that we don't have good memories and so we have to preserve them. in most courts that would have been reined in significantly and he would have been instructed, especially on cross examination, to answer only the question propounded to him. he also had to admit that he had typed out notes that he was referring to during his testimony. now that may not sound extraordinary to you, but witnesses are not allowed to do that, except under certain situations -- if they can't recall something, then they may be allowed to look at their notes or look at a report. you can't simply bring in notes and read from them during your testimony. that's what he did. then he was surprised to learn that the attorneys would be entitled to look at those notes when he did that. that's what the attorneys are doing now. i find all of this really rather extraordinary for a professional witness like dr. bao.
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>> but this is from the very beginning, when i asked you does it look like he he's reading from a script, these are his professional notes, english is not his first language. he seems very detailed and very thorough in what he's trying to present to the jury, to this courtroom. but is it that odd that someone would come in with their notes to use as a reference? he shouldn't be an encyclopedia of memory knowledge to this one case. he has a lot of other cases probably going on. wouldn't the notes just be typical? >> well, his report would be typical. he does a professional autopsy report. and, yes, he can refer to his report when he doesn't recall something. that is typical. but to type up notes in anticipation of questions and answers and to go off on topics that are not being directly inquired about, that is unusual. the judge has admonished him a couple of times to just stick to the questions asked. nevertheless, he tends to sort of go off on tangents, then he
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has to be reined back in again. >> okay, they're back up with more questions from defense attorney west here. let's go back in. >> -- a copy of these. i'm going to want to have an opportunity to review them more carefully and have an opportunity to question dr. bao specifically about them but i need a little time to do that. and i can proffer why, but i need that time and i think the rules provide anything that a witness uses -- >> this is a speaking argument and we could do that outside the presence of the jury. ladies and gentlemen, we'll go ahead and break for lunch at this time. please put your notepads face down. >> we're just watching as they got started back up, and the defense requested more time so the judge will break for lunch about five minutes early, but i want to get some context from the reverend al sharpton. he joins me now from new orleans with where msnbc is down there
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holding free clinics, as well as a sponsor of the essence festival this weekend. it is the 19th year there. rev, i know you're busy doing other things but this is very gripping testimony this morning with sybrina fulton testifying, trayvon's brother. what do you make of what we've seen so far as we get close to where the prosecution is about to rest its case? >> well, i thought it was very interesting this morning. i did watch sybrina fulton's testimony and javaris' testimony and i think that it was very compelling to hear sybrina, as the mother, identify that it was trayvon on the tape. i think that the defense did what defense lawyers supposed to do, try to raise doubt. i don't know how successful that will be. we'll see what the jury says. from where i sat, i think that she handled it very evenly. she was not rattled.
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she didn't go for the bait of being argumentative. i think the brother came off the same way, just being very honest, that he had had -- he was in denial initially. he didn't want to deal with what his brother's death was and how it happened. he didn't even want to deal with the tape. then he later came to deal with it. and then said that that was his brother. i think it is interesting the defense had one theory with the mother, thomas, that well, you wanted your son to be right so you wanted to say that was your son. but he didn't have that with the brother. so was he saying the brother didn't want his brother to be right? it kind of like came a little convoluted to me. but again, defense lawyers have to do what defense lawyers do and that's defend their client. >> again, we see the seal that's just popped up for the great state of florida. that means they are officially in their lunch break there at the george zimmerman trial. we have left the scene there with dr. bao, who is the medical
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examiner who did the autopsy on trayvon martin. so when they pick up after a quick lunch break, we will go back to the defense and the cross examination of dr. bao. so we encourage you to stick around for that. i want to thank our msnbc legal analyst, lisa bloom, our craig melvin, but that's going to wrap things up for me this morning. i'm thomas roberts. thanks for watching. don't go anywhere though. "now" with alex wagner comes up live next. a special show coming live from the essence festival in new orleans. la's known definitely for its traffic, congestion, for it's smog. but there are a lot of people that do ride the bus. and now that the busses are running on natural gas, they don't throw out as much pollution to the earth. so i feel good. i feel like i'm doing my part to help out the environment.
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