tv The Last Word MSNBC July 11, 2013 7:00pm-8:01pm PDT
is it will be a big deal. and the earliest it could possibly happen is late tomorrow once the jury is handed the case tomorrow afternoon. so keep that timing in mind. and watch this space. that does it for us tonight, we'll see you again tomorrow night. now it is time for "the last word" with lawrence o'donnell, have a great evening. this time tomorrow night, george zimmerman could be a convicted murderer or a free man, or still waiting for a verdict. >> why does this defendant get out of the car if they thinks that trayvon martin is a threat? >> day 23 of the george zimmerman trial. >> why? because he has a gun. >> both sides have rested their case. >> they're now debating the instructions that will go to the jury. >> it is certainly consistent with the way the case has proceeded. >> don west is using strong language there. >> closing arguments today in the george zimmerman trial. >> closing arguments later this afternoon. >> it is coming up on decision
time. >> once we get to the closing and final chapter. >> let's talk about the trial of george zimmerman. >> state versus george zimmerman. >> who was the aggressor. >> are any of those abrasions life-threatening? >> mark osterman. >> rachel jeantel. >> we should plan at least a couple of hours. >> he needs to tell her whether he is going to testify or not. >> mr. zimmerman not taking the stand. >> george zimmerman has pled not guilty and claims he fatally shot trayvon martin in self defense. >> state versus george zimmerma
zimmerman. >> twenty-three days after the state versus george zimmerman, the state began his closing argument. here is how attorney de la rionda began his closing argument today. >> a teenager is dead. he is dead through no fault of his own. he is dead because another man made assumptions. that man assumed certain thins.s he is dead, not just because the man made those assumption assum because he acted upon those assumptions and unfortunately, unfortunate unfortunately, because his assumptions were wrong trayvon benjamin martin no longer walks on this earth.
>> even though george zimmerman chose not to testify in his own defense, the prosecution tried to use george zimmerman's words against him. >> this innocent, 17-year-old kid was profiled as a criminal. to quote the defendant and pardon my language "he was one of those bleep-holes that get away. pardon my language, he was one of those f-punks. now the defendant, george zimmerman, didn't scream that out. and the defense will argue well, that shows he didn't have ill will or hatred. no, i will submit he uttered it under his breath, and that in itself indicates ill will or hatred. what he was doing is verbalizing what he was thinking.
and that is why that is important. because in his mind, he already assumes certain things. that trayvon martin was a [ bleep ] punk, and he was a [ bleep ] hole, and he wasn't going to get away this time. >> the prosecution then described trayvon martin as an innocent teenager who was just trying to get home after going to a 7-eleven. >> he bought what? what did he buy? what was his crime? he bought skittles, and some kind of watermelon or iced tea, or whatever it is called. that was his crime. he had $40 and 15 cents in his pockets.
he was wearing a photo button. and he was speaking to a girl in miami. he was minding his own business. >> you think george zimmerman's reenactment of what happened that night, the prosecution zeroed in on the position of the gun before the shooting. >> so the gun was not exposed earlier, he is getting beat up. but he has not taken the gun out. it is only when the victim starts to reach for the gun. he tells osterman he actually grabbed for the gun, or touched it. but says he is reaching for the gun and realized as he was holding one hand over my mouth, my nostril, i see it, but he has that third hand -- that he is going for the gun. does that make sense? one of the things he does, he demonstrates to the police where he had the gun.
and it was not right here in the front. it was towards the back and it was hidden. and he will demonstrate to the police out there where it was. look at the gun. look at the size of this gun. how did the victim see that in the darkness? where was it? it wasn't outside. it was tucked in behind. and he will demonstrate to the police where it was. how did the victim see this gun? >> george zimmerman's friend, mark osterman testified that george zimmerman told him that trayvon martin straddled zimmerman by his arm pits. de la rionda used a mannequin, once again, using the mannequin to show the jury once again what it would look like. >> he is showing the arm pits,
how did he get the gun out? arm pits, how does he get the gun out? >> a few months after the incident, george zimmerman told sean hannity that he had no regrets about what happened that night. but today, he must have had regrets about talking to sean hannity. >> i feel like it was all god's plan, and for me to second guess it or judge it. >> is there anything you might do differently in retrospect, after time has passed? >> no, sir. >> i don't know whether i need to comment about that. it speaks for itself. >> joining me now, msnbc legal analyst, lisa bloom, former criminal prosecutor, faith jenkins and former prosecutor marcia clark, who is also the author of the new novel, "killer
ambition." they want to lodge at least one central question at least in the jury's mind that leads to the answer of guilty. what do you think the prosecution succeeded in -- in placing in front of the jury that they can't answer with anything other than a guilty verdict? >> well, so far, so far what the prosecution has placed in front of the jury is the irrefutable fact that george zimmerman had ill will. he certainly did profile trayvon martin. and he certainly did target him as somebody who was up to no good, for reasons that seemed to be completely unfounded. if nothing else was established that was established very clearly and it can't be controverted. after that, it becomes a matter of whether the jury believes that george zimmerman lied about getting out of the car because he couldn't remember the street name. i think they will believe that. especially because the prosecutor was able to show that when he was talking to the police very shortly thereafter, he popped the name right out. that was a very good and
impressive lie they put out there to show he actually was following trayvon martin and was trying to come up with -- up with an excuse for it. the second thing is the injuries, i think they made a case showing that he exaggerated enormously what the injuries were. and there was testify from the police and a witness saying they were not life-threatening. that goes consistently to his effort to minimize his own conduct, to maximize his own view as a victim, and make trayvon martin look like the aggressor, when in fact, the physical facts don't bear it out. >> lisa bloom, there are lies that happen, and things that are fudged. the street name is a very crucial element, i think, in this package that they're trying to put together. because what it says to you is, immediately that night,
immediately after the fact he knew the truth of his story was not good enough. and he had to have a reason for getting out of that car. and the reason he came up with, for getting out of the car, is completely unbelievable. i didn't know what street i was on. in the three street -- little thing that i patrol and know every inch of. >> and where he is neighborhood watch commander. >> but why did he think he needed a better reason to get out of the car than whatever reason he had? >> because he knew that it was on tape that he was told not to follow. and so he needed a story as to why he did follow. and so in the story that he tells that night and the next day, he needs to say well i -- i know i was told not to follow. i know i was told not to follow. but i wasn't following, i was looking for a street sign, because yeah, i can't remember in the street, even though i live there, right. and also i could not see an address, even though on the
videotaped reenactment, you could clearly see an address and a number. >> let's go to the part where the prosecutor is talking specifically about this thing and the directions. >> the dispatcher said -- where did he go? what direction is he going, i said i don't know, i lost -- because he cut down here and made a right. >> did you catch that? did you catch him in one lie right there? he originally told the police over and over, before and even after this interview he didn't know the name of the street. and then when they just kind of let him talk he gives them the name right there. i mean, it is common sense. there is only three streets and he has lived there four years. again, why did he have to lie about that? because he does not want to admit that he was following this innocent young boy. >> and faith jenkins, there is also the question of well, was
trayvon martin running? was he walking? what was he doing? look at what -- how the prosecution used the hannity tape once again on this issue. let's watch this. >> why do you think he was running then? >> i don't -- he was -- >> you said he was running. >> he was like skipping, going away quickly. but he wasn't running out of fear. he was not running, he was not actually running. >> hannity just asking a very simple question, well, perhaps trayvon martin was scared of you. since you're following him. and he is running away from you. and so he realizes at that time, the defendant realizes oh, that doesn't look good. because that means i'm chasing him. that means trayvon martin is the one that is scared. that doesn't look good for me. so what does he say?
oh, he is skipping away. la, la, la. that is what he is claiming. >> faith, the way you get a jury to resent a defendant not testifying is you pile up these questions that are unsatisfactory to a jury. they do really want to know, are you saying he was running or not running? why did you really get out of the car? how did you get that gun from basically behind your back when you're on your back in the dark. they want answers to that question if they're going to let you walk out of this courtroom having killed that 17-year-old. >> that is exactly right. because think about what that means. this 17-year-old is running away from him with nothing but candy, snacks, a drink, his phone and minutes later he ends up shot and killed, dead. and so the prosecutor here, their strategy, the reason they put it in all of their statements, because in the beginning they said we want to build on his web of lies, this
web of deceit. so one after another, they are tallying up the lies, the web of things. he is lying because he killed this young man. it was murder, it was not self defense and that is what they want this jury to come to the conclusion of. >> marcia, we have to take a break, but it seems like something zimmerman could deal with on the witness stand if there was a reasonable explanation for it. >> maybe, and maybe not. to tell you the truth, i don't think that zimmerman could ever do any better on the witness stand and probably would do a great deal worse on the witness stand than he did with those cops in the statements or with even sean hannity. i already have to say he has already gotten his best whack with the answers, rather than be subjected to real cross examination. >> all right, also coming up, an attorney for trayvon martin's family will join us. we'll also talk to a juror who
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. >> oh, my god, just when i thought this case couldn't get anymore bizarre, the state is seeking third degree murder based on child abuse? >> that happened today during the lawyers' arguments over the instructions the judge will give the jury tomorrow. we will have more about those instructions coming up. our daughter is all kate.
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again, going back to that assumption that he made originally, when he profiled a 17-year-old boy. that had skittles. that is the crime he committed that evening. skittles that he didn't even steal from 7-eleven. he legitimately bought. you saw the videotape. he was not instilling fear into that clerk over there. because he was wearing a hoodie. but somehow this man right here became suspicious of a 17-year-old kid who is wearing a hoodie. >> back with us, lisa bloom, faith jenkins and marcia clark. marcia, he seems to be trying to drill home the point that
trayvon martin did nothing that night to deserve his death. beginning with the 7-eleven and everything he was doing before he encountered george zimmerman. >> right, and it is a really important point he is making here. in other words, trayvon martin is the victim. trayvon martin was going about his business. he went to the liquor store to get iced tea and skittles for his nephew, and he was zoned in to watch the all-star game. he is talking to rachel jeantel, make sure the game is on. he is going about his business, certainly not engaged in any kind of behavior that would justify suspicion. you can see he is focused on getting home. it is a rainy night. he is not trying to scope out the neighborhood, that he was trying to burglarize, he is zoned in on getting home, watching the all-star game, getting skittles to his nephew is not somebody casing the
joint, looking to rob somebody, who started this fight? george zimmerman. >> to the point of what happened in that fight. and we don't have george zimmerman taking the witness stand to testify or get cross examined and we obviously cannot have trayvon martin. the prosecution went to the medical evidence and blood stains, where is the blood? why is there no blood? >> you you recall one of the things we talked about. i think one of the witnesses, dr. di maio, very impressive, distinguished doctor, this photo that the defense keeps berating. you recall what i did? what do you expect? blood. and i'm going to show you the photographs, not just what the medical examiner is saying, that is the doctor, he is incompetent, he didn't know what he was doing. no, i'm going to show to photographs at the scene. no blood on his hands.
they're going to say oh, it was raining that night. and i guess the blood on the defendant had just stuck there. but on the victim they just kind of vanished? >> lisa bloom, if there was blood on trayvon martin's hands, this would be such a different case. >> that is true, actually, i think it is a weak point for the prosecution because george zimmerman was immediately taken into custody and photographed and trayvon martin's remains were left there for several hours. and i think it is clearly established in this case that the collection matters were poor. the fingernails were scraped with the same implement. some of it degraded. i mean, there is really no question about that. the absence of evidence is not evidence. so i didn't think the prosecution did particularly well on that score. >> but no trace of blood? no trace of dna? and the rain washing it away? that is the weakest excuse and argument. it is just not believable. george zimmerman did not sustain
the beating he claims he sustained at the hands of trayvon martin. >> well, how did he get the injuries? he didn't get punched in the face -- >> he may have. >> if we're going to concede that he got punched in the face, then why are we taking so much time talking about trayvon martin's hands? deal with that -- >> i don't think they're shying away from that. there is contact there, there is blood on his hand. the fact that george zimmerman embellished the beating, he did not get bashed into the concrete 25 times, he doesn't have the injuries to sustain that. no one believes he was beaten that way. >> go ahead, marcia. >> you would expect to find some trace. when you break a nose, that wound bleeds like crazy, by the way, so does head wounds. there is enough blood to have gotten on trayvon martin if indeed he had the kind of
contact that george zimmerman talked about. with the repeated pounding and holding his head the way he was alleged to. some trace amounts would have been found somewhere, rain or no rain, collection or no collection, it is not that hard to detect blood. >> but they didn't do blood detecting, or luminol at the scene. >> let's hold it there, we'll be right back with more. up next, a lawyer for trayvon martin's family reacts to the prosecution's closing argument. and later, a look at the jury that will decide george zimmerman's guilt or not guilt. we do not have a finding of innocence in america. teleprompter incorrectly said innocence, so i had to adjust that. we'll be right back. but you relieve gas, no? not me... that's his job. true. i relieve gas fast. [ male announcer ] gas-x is designed to relieve gas. gas-x, the gas xpert.
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tel tel some of the people you heard from were the parents of both the victim and the defendant. unfortunately, the only photographs left of trayvon martin are these photographs. i mean, they still have other photographs, you saw some of them in his football days when he was younger. but they can't take anymore photos. and that is true because of the actions of one person, the man before you, the defendant,
george zimmerman. the man who is guilty of second degree murder. thank you. >> and that is how the prosecution ended their presentation today. joining me now, an attorney for trayvon martin's family, jasmine rand, jasmine, the prosecution in effect is representing the martin family interests in the courtroom during this trial. how does the family feel about how they were represented in the case so far? >> the family is very pleased with the representation of the prosecution throughout this process. today what we saw was bernie de la rionda bring home george zimmerman's tangled web of lies. i really want to bring it back to the basics to drive home the point. this is not a complicated case. we knew a few simple facts, that george zimmerman got out of the car that night with a loaded gun and a live round, with trayvon martin's name on the bullet.
he said quote unquote, these [ bleep ] always get away. and we know that he followed trayvon martin throughout the neighborhood and the bullet was lodged in the heart of a child. and something important to know in george zimmerman's mindset is that he felt no remorse. as we heard on hannity tonight, he said killing trayvon martin was all in god's plan, i don't know who he was praying to. >> jasmine, what the jury has not heard in this case is the decision moment by the defendant to kill trayvon martin and exactly what was it based on. george zimmerman did not tell this jury i chose to shoot and kill him at this moment because i believed, fill in the blank. that testimony never came. >> that is true, but i don't think we would ever hear george zimmerman say exactly why he killed trayvon martin. he would be sure to get a conviction. but what we do know is that he had called on numerous occasions
to report young, black males committing suspicious criminal activities on the property from his perception. and we know that he followed trayvon martin with a loaded gun and that trayvon martin is dead. >> you have been close to the family. and i just have to wonder how tense they must be tonight. and how do you advise them to prepare themselves for a verdict in this case? >> sabrina and tracy pray constantly. and that is what i have advised them to do, as bernie de la rionda said to do today. the moral arc is long with justice, so we're praying for justice and believe that george zimmerman will be convicted of murder. >> jasmine rand, thank you for joining us. >> thank you. >> we invited members of george zimmerman's defense team to join us, but understandably, they delan declined. they have a very big day to prepare for tomorrow. coming up, the possible
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was to settle disputes about dge's instructions to the jury. the defense objected to including an option for the jury to find george zimmerman guilty of the lesser charge of manslaughter. but the judge agreed with the prosecution that florida law requires that manslaughter be included as the lesser charge in a second degree murder case. back with me, msnbc legal analyst, lisa bloom, also former homicide prosecutor ken p padowitz, ken, i want to go over the exact subjects that will be included in the judge's instructions. after the attorneys deliver their closing arguments, masterful or not, emotional or not, compelling or not. how important is the judge's instructions which tends to come over as a very dry recitation by the judges. >> well, the judge's
instructions are everything in this case. and there really are no questions as whether or not manslaughter would come in. if one side asks for in florida, and there is any type of evidence that supports it in the case, manslaughter has to be read to the jury. so it really was not a debate. you have to be aware of the crime. the top of the pyramid being second degree murder, the charge that is filed against mr. zimmerman. and then under that is manslaughter. it is subsumed within the higher crime. so the judge will tell them you have to start with the highest crime and if the elements have not been proven to you beyond a reasonable doubt, the next one is the crime of manslaughter. here we know that second degree murder, they're basically looking at depraved mind, ill will, spite, intent. for manslaughter, the lesser included crime is one of two
ways, the intentional act that caused the death of trayvon martin. or culpable negligence, negligence we usually think of in civil cases. but in criminal cases, that has to rise to the level. gross, disregard for human life. that is the key word. >> and lisa bloom is that negligent standard met if you're in a fist fight and you pull in a gun? >> right, or george zimmerman panicked and was not really in reasonable fear of great bodily injury or death. he panicked, maybe he didn't have a depraved mind at that moment. maybe he really was thinking about saving his life, but in retrospect, that was not manslaughter. >> and ken padowitz, if george
zimmerman, when he was in the car, if george zimmerman had tripped and trayvon martin had killed him, that zimmerman's conviction on some kind of vehicle homicide would be virtually assured. and yet getting out of the car, and getting into an encounter with him and pulling out the gun could be a way of walking away as a free man, not guilty after killing him. >> right, and that is the defense theory, self defense, at the last few seconds, zimmerman felt -- reasonably felt he was in fear for his life or great bodily harm to himself and had to pull the trigger. but it is the prosecution's job to take the much wider point that george zimmerman is following, pursuing, stalking, has a gun, it is loaded, chambered with a round, all of these things can go to second degree murder. and also they can go, i think even stronger for manslaughter
to show a culpable negligence. it is really a disregard for human life. and when he places the kid in the corner, who has to defend himself, who has to stand his ground and fight back for his life that is when zimmerman decides to pull the trigger. and that is why really it is a very strong argument for culpable negligence for a manslaughter, lesser included crime, which is a very serious conviction. >> it was actually the easiest part of the case to prove. you have him on tape minutes before, calling him an f-ing punk, do we think he grew fonder of trayvon martin? immediately after at the station, he is saying he is a criminal, and five months later he is saying god's plan. what part of that is not ill will? >> well, ken, if manslaughter case is an easier one to prove, how do you defend the manslaughter case tomorrow because you're going to have to defend both of these? >> right, and the judge is going to read the instructions of self
defense both times. she is going to read it right after she tells the jury the law for second degree murder and she is going to read self defense again, which she reads the manslaughter charge. so the defense is going to hear that twice, that is the defense's job, to really show the jury hey, there is reasonable doubt all over the place here. and there is reasonable doubt as to whether or not george zimmerman had to fire that gun to defend his life. and therefore, you must find my client not guilty. that is going to be the argument that the defense is going to have to make here for both second degree murder and for manslaughter. >> but is the jury going to have a different standard in their heads for just the call on using self defense? when it comes to the manslaughter charge? >> i know exactly what you're getting to. and the problem i have is that the jury has gotten this visual from both sides over and over again of george zimmerman down. trayvon martin on top. pounding his head, punching him in the face. i think most people in that
situation would say if you had a gun on you, you could take it out and shoot it? >> not in my neighborhood, it used to happen all the time and nobody pulled a gun. >> they needed to give the jury an alternative theory, the defense has been very good with this, driving it over and over again, questioning the witnesses, putting that scenario in front of the jury. that is in their mind, the jury does not have an alternative, the prosecution should have stood up the dummy, shown how they could have been standing, put george zimmerman on top as a number of witnesses said he was. the prosecution failed to do that. the jury only has that one image, that has to be a concern for them. >> ken padowitz, lisa bloom. up next, a look at the six people who will decide to convict or acquit george zimmerman. i met a turtle friend today so, you don't get that very often. it seemed like it was more than happy to have us in his home.
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stakes like this? i'll ask a juror who was sequestered, and it is not too terribly different from this, coming up. this is my favorite one. it's upside down. oh, sorry. (woman vo) it takes him places he's always wanted to go. that's why we bought a subaru. (announcer) love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru.
the house caught fire and we were out on the streets. [ whispering ] shhh. it's only a dream. and we have home insurance. but if we made a claim, our rate would go up... [ whispering ] shhh. you did it right. you have allstate claim rate guard so your rates won't go up just because of a claim. [ whispering ] are we still in a dream? no, you're in an allstate commercial. so get allstate home insurance with claim rate guard... [ whispering ] goodnight. there are so many people in our bedroom. [ dennis ] talk to an allstate agent... [ doorbell rings ] ...and let the good life in. after the defense gives its closing argument tomorrow, the fate of george zimmerman will then rest with the jury, the jury of whom is made up of six women, the alternate jurors are two women, one man. the jury is required for death penalty cases only, and
six-person jury for all other cases. the jury is sequestered for the duration of the trial. and the judge has given them these instructions every day. >> you're not to discuss the case among yourself or anybody else, or read or listen to any e-mails, text messages, or social networking pages about the case. you're not to create or read any of those. you're not to get on the internet to do any independent research about the case, people, places, things or events, nor listen to any newspapers or television reports. do i have your word that you will abide by these instructions? >> yes. >> joining me now, dr. jara best, a sequestered juror in a case in memphis. and that jury convicted a man of involuntary manslaughter, a lesser charge. thank you for joining us tonight. and i think a lot of people out
there, specifically tonight are wondering, after you got your jury instruction on that murder charge how did you work it down to a manslaughter conviction? >> well, it was a lot -- of deliberation among our jurors. we read over the instructions from the judge. we read it word for word to make sure we understood each and every charge that was presented to us. and it took us a while to finally come to an agreement. but what we did is make word that was written in the instructions given to us. and that was probably the hardest part, making sure we followed the law and abided by the instructions. and that was probably the toughest part. >> i think, you know, a lot of analysis has said by so many who were impressed by the second degree charge, that the prosecution should have been charging with manslaughter all along. and i think in that presumption
is that the jury will resent the prosecutors coming in at second degree murder if what they really have is a manslaughter case here. what is your experience with that? the prosecution coming in at one level on a murder charge, and you, the jury, finding something less? >> well, actually, you know, we knew what the initial charge was. and throughout the trial, you know, listening to all the evidence that was presented to us, we were you know, among ourselves, of course, trying to determine what the final charge should be. and you know, when you're sitting with your fellow jurors going over the case, listening and going over all the evidence that has been presented to you throughout the trial, you're still trying to remember all the evidence you heard and you know, looking at your notes. trying to remember, if this actually sets the charge that is presented to you. was there enough evidence to go with the charge or do you have to figure out there was another charge that was actually going
to be the final decision. and it was a hard decision, among the jurors. >> and talk about the sequester, what that does to the jurors. and do you think it improves their attention to the case and their fidelity to the process? >> it absolutely does. my -- the instructions that were read to the jurors about the sequester, you are not able to read anything until the case is handed over to you by the judge. and so you're living with these people pretty much. you know, no tv, no cell phones, nothing. so you know, you're getting to know these people throughout being sequestered, knowing you can't talk about the case until you are finally handed over to it. you are eating with these people every day, spending every hour with them almost. so you're getting to know your fellow jurors. and just that part in itself helped when you actually tried to decide on the verdict and
on. >> dr. jara best, thank you for joining us. >> up next, what george zimmerman's defense team will want to try to prove in their closing arguments. the ones getting involved and staying engaged. they're not afraid to question the path they're on. because the one question they never want to ask is "how did i end up here?" i started schwab for those people. people who want to take ownership of their investments, like they do in every other aspect of their lives. [ french accent ] antacid! sorry, i have gas. but you relieve gas, no? not me... that's his job. true. i relieve gas fast. [ male announcer ] gas-x is designed to relieve gas. gas-x, the gas xpert.
the jury returns to the courtroom at 8:30 tomorrow morning, at which time mark o'mara will begin the defense's closing argument. the state will then have a chance to rebut their closing argument, and the jury will be charged. back with us, lisa bloom, faith jenkins and marcia clark, i want to listen to something that mark o'mara said, he will be up there tomorrow. what he said when he argued for basically a directed verdict at the end of the prosecution's case. saying that they failed to make
their case. it came down to this one line. >> trayvon martin did in fact cause his own death. >> marcia clark, that is what they have to argue to this jury. that george zimmerman did not cause that death. the death was caused and trayvon martin's death was caused by trayvon martin. >> that is right, they're going to have to point to whatever they can to try and establish that george zimmerman was not the aggressor, that trayvon martin was, and that george zimmerman had no choice, ultimately but to shoot at trayvon martin. and so what they're going to point to, i'm sure, is number one thing is the way that the ballistic evidence, no tattooing on trayvon martin's body, and that the hoodie seemed to be closer in range. which indicates the hoodie was kind of hanging closer to his body, meaning he was leaning over george zimmerman, which is
consistent with the story that he was on top of him and beating him. that will be a key piece of evidence, they will rely heavily on dr. di maio's testimony, saying he was reasonably in fear of danger. that particular football has been back and forth across the field so many times i'm not sure the jury is even going to be able to sort out who they think was the screaming one. >> and lisa, the defense will presumably want to stay on the fight as much as they possibly can. because it is only within the moments, whatever that is, minutes of that fight that the justification for homicide can exist. >> yes, here is the best defense argument, you know what? george zimmerman probably did make terrible assumptions of trayvon martin, he probably did profile him. that was a big mistake, he shouldn't have done that. but it was not illegal. he is not on trial for making assumptions and profiling.
he got out of the car, he followed, but then he was assaulted and was attacked. and then they will get into the physical fight and all the legal and medical testimony to support that. i hope the testimony on rebuttal shows that he was wearing a baggy t-shirt, that the outer sweatshirt would have been even further away. so the two are really not that insignificant. >> faith, i many times have heard jurors mention things after the deliberations and after the arguments are in. that no lawyer mentioned. here is the thing that made me vote this way. is there anything that you can think a juror may pick up on that the prosecution has under-emphasized or didn't lean on today. or something on the defense side that they may grab onto that mark o'mara has not used? >> the prosecution cannot state with specificity what happened
with trayvon martin and george zimmerman, so they're going after the defense's statement, saying he is a liar. you can't believe him, the child is dead. if there is anything i think the jurors will look at in the prosecution's arguments is that they don't know. they're saying we don't have to know. we know that trayvon martin is dead, and he is a liar. why is he lying, because his conscienceness of guilt, but that may be a sticking point. >> let's listen to dr. di maio's testimony, let's listen to this. >> based upon the concentration of the marks and the size of the pattern, it is my opinion that the muzzle of the gun in this case was two to four inches away from the skin. so the barrel of the gun was against the clothing, the muzzle of the gun was against the clothing. but the clothing itself had to
be two to four inches away from the body at the time mr. martin was shot. so the wound itself, by the gap, by the powder tattooing, in the face of contact of the clothing indicate -- indicates that this is consistent with mr. zimmerman's account, that he -- that mr. martin was over him leaning forward at the time he was shot. >> marcia clark, is that possibly the single most important piece of testimony that the prosecution has to overcome? >> you know, i don't think so, lawrence, i'm not that impressed with that testimony. i know it has been cited as a big deal for them. but i agree with lisa, there are so many positions that trayvon could have been in to have the t-shirt fall away. don't forget, too, it is a rainy
night, i don't know how that t-shirt fit him. he could be standing straight up. it could have been away from him. he was very thin. and two to four inches was not a lot of room. it is not huge, it is not billowing good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes. tonight on "all in" closing arguments begin in sanford, florida. the prosecution paints a picture of george zimmerman as a wannabe cop whose assumptions resulted in death of trayvon martin. that's coming up. also a 19-year-old makes a really bad joke on facebook and spends four horrific months in a texas jail charged with making terroristic threats.