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tv   Martin Bashir  MSNBC  July 16, 2013 1:00pm-2:01pm PDT

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are demanding vengeance? >> there's nothing i can tell them but it's something that i can do. i can pray for them. >> the martin family was very clear. the best way to honor their son is in a nonviolent manner. >> he was a calm, chill, loving. ern. >> george zimmerman is a man whose heart was in the right place. >> at some point, trayvon became aware of the gun and was backing up and george zimmerman shot him. >> spannish, white, asian, if they came in the same situation where trayvon was, is i think george would have reacted the same way. >> the it was racial to be honest. >> trayvon martin had the civil right to go home. >> the verdict isn't what they wanted so now they're calling on the department of justice. >> we pray for trayvon. >> the justice department shares your concern. i share your concern.
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>> the first 48 hours since george zimmerman was found not guilty in the shooting death of trayvon martin and the nation has been plunged into a difficult but inescapable conversation about racial profiling, guns, and self-defense. and in less than 30 minutes, the attorney general himself, eric holder will speak at the annual naacp convention, taking place right now in orlando, florida. more on that just ahead. but we are now getting some insights into why and how the jury decided to acquit george zimmerman with one juror known only as b-37 saying in a cnn interview that three of the six-person panel originally wanted a conviction. ultimately, however, she says they came to rest on what they understood the law allowed. >> because of the heat of the moment and the stand your ground. he had a right to defend
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himself. if he felt threatened that his life was going to be taken away from him or he was going to have bodily harm, he had a right. that's how we read the law. that's how we got to the point of everybody being not guilty. >> one of the key prosecution witnesses, rachel jeantel has also given an interview to cnn chiding zimmerman for failing to take the stand and also saying that she believes race was absolutely a factor. it was racial. let's be honest, racial. if he was trayvon was white and he had a hoodie on, would that happen? >> civil rights leaders including the reverend al sharpton, president of the national action network and our msnbc colleague have called for public gatherings in 100 cities this coming saturday. even as one protest turned violent in los angeles last night. a fringe group broke away from a peaceful demonstration and began
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breaking store windows and destroying property. however, the vast majority of protests have been peaceful even as this delicate national conversation continues. for more now, i'm joined by kerry sanders from sanford, florida, who is with the city's mayor jeff triplett. kerry? >> martin, we're here with the mayor because this is in many ways not only the epicenter of events but it is the epicenter of calm. we have seen the events in los angeles and oakland, in milwaukee where protesters have gotten a little out of hand. although it's just a small group. nonetheless, here things are calm. so i guess i'm curious, as you look forward to this saturday, marches in 100 cities organized by reverend al sharpton, you've seen a lot of people show up before, what are your concerns and how prepared are you? >> i think we're continuing with our preparedness plan that we put into place for the trial. you know, last year as we speak,
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a lot of people came to our town. it was absolutely peaceful. there were no arrests. there was no violence whatsoever. our expectation is that's going to be the same. we've always said from day one, people have the right to demonstrate to, protest to get their word out but have to do it peacefully. the citizens of sanford luckily being in the epicenter, we've been having this discussion for 16, 17 months about being calm, about being peaceful. how do we grow from here and move on with these discussions. >> that's a good question. have you found the answer? how do you grow from here? >> i think we've gotten closer than we've ever been in the city of sanford and as a nation, as a whole. i was asked earlier today as the true division of race between the one side and the other, and there's a lot of people that were hurting originally on. i think of what this has done is allowed them to talk to a lot of people. we've done a lot of listening. when you hold something in for
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that will many years, things that happened 50, 60 years in our city, it becomes a chapter in the book. this is another chapter in the book. it's truly having people sit down at the same table together, having respect for the concerns and not saying i can walk in your shoes but i can walk next to you. >> thank you very much, mayor. it is an undertaking that you have taken the challenge here, but it is also a difficult challenge because as the mayor points out, this is not a new issue, just newly risen to the surface. martin. >> kerry, a quick question if i may to you. we understand that mr. zimmerman will be getting the gun that he used to kill trayvon martin back. do we know if it's already been returned? and if not, who has it? >> you know, that is such a good question because we have been in touch with the court. the court no longer has the caltech .millimeter pistol. we've been in touch with the florida department of law enforcement. they no longer have custody of
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that weapon. we have been in touch with the sheriff's office. they no longer have custody of that weapon. about 30 minutes ago, i called the prosecutor, the special prosecutor angela cory. she said you know what, i'm getting in the car with my chief spokesperson. she'll call you right back. tick-tock, i haven't gotten that call back. i don't know where that is. >> kerry, thank you for make the inquiries and mayor, thank to you. for more i'm joined here by msnbc contributor joy reid and defense attorney and former prosecutor karen desoto. joy, miss seen tell says race was clear laically a part of this while juror b-37 says it was not even discussed in the jury room. why was that? >> it didn't have to be because she also said in that interview that of course trayvon martin was suspicious. i mean there he was in his hoodie walking through the neighborhood in the dark and in the rain. ipso facto suspicious. she had such an engrained sense that george zimmerman was
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inherently good and that stray von martin was inherently suspicious you didn't need to put it on the table with five white jurors in the room and we're saying one of ambiguous race. she was in the minority. that doesn't matter. the point is there are so many assumptions that these jurors brought to the table, that where i think expert lit exploited by the defense defense when they showeded that picture of trayvon with the shirt off when they had a white woman who lived in the complex say black teenager broke into my house. they used a lot of subject 8al cues where you didn't have the to make it plain. >> subtle, joy? >> maybe to those jurors, no the so to the rest of us. >> karen, one juror thought zimmerman was guilty of second degree murder. two felt he was guilty of manslaughter. yet, 16 hours later, all of them come back with a not guilty. now, was that do you think because of the complexity of the legal language in the judge's instructions? >> i can tell you this. it's very common in many both civil and criminal cases for the
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jurors to go in the back room and they'll do a straw poll right off the hop to see where they're at. a lot of the times you will always have one, two, three people who don't agree. what do they do? the same thing that the jurors do. there's only six. it's not like 12. so that's not uncommon. then they'll start going through the evidence and you know, i mean we've heard of a lot of cases where there's always one that's you the know very adamant and by the end, after two, three days, they're in agreement with the others. all of the psychological things that go into that we can't go into it. happens quite a bit. >> joy, the juror says both zimmerman and trayvon were responsible for the altercation. and both could have walked away. but when asked who she felt was the aggressor, this is what she said. take a listen. >> you believe that trayvon martin was the aggressor? >> i think the roles changed.
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i think george got in a little bit too deep. which he shouldn't have been there. but trayvon decided that he wasn't going to let him scare him and get the one over up on him or something. and i think trayvon got mad and attacked him. >> so who was the perpetrator and who was in the defensive position? is. >> yeah, you know, and she's basically making it sound as if you know, sort of george happened upon him. i don't know. i thought it was interesting the extent to which this juror absorbed wholesale every word out of the mouth of george zimmerman even when she was asked did she think he was not credible in any way. absolutely not. whatever he said she went with the narrative and she described almost as if she was there. this was also the juror, by the way, who said she thought the protests before the arrests were riots. so i suspect that this juror came into this case ready to acquit and probably had a very strong opinion about that and
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there's all sorts of things about group think but clearly the people with the stronger opinion a lot of time will overwhelm those with the contrary opinion. >> karen, in the legal argument, was it not the case that the defense managed to get the jury to think solely about the altercation and the prosecution failed to get them to think about everything that led up to that. >> right. if you notice what she said was at some point it changed. meaning they felt that he was wrong but then they might have believed that he did turn around and punch him and then it was a free-for-all. clearly their version they agreed with the defense with that one. the prosecutor didn't go into that as much as i think we all thought they should have. at the end of the day, the jury instructions and the way they were worded meant if that altercation was on going and he felt threat and there was a bodily threat there, that he had a right to defend himself. there was no jury instruction that said okay, at this point or that point or this point. so clearly, when two people get in a fight, the jurors have to
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determine who started, who didn't and what point are they going to go forward to decide whether there was self-defense. >> it leads you to wonder why the prosecution didn't try to get into the jury instructions the initial aggressor rule. yes, florida has stand your ground. but inside the self-defense statute is an initial aggressor rule. if she just said george got into it doo deep and it changed maybe she agrees he was the initial aggressor. the initial aggressor rule withdraws your ability to use stand your ground or self-defense. i never heard the prosecution discuss the initial aggressor rule. it seems once again the prosecution failed to put forward a narrative that would give jurors who did want to convict something to stand on. >> joy and i throughout the trial had said there was no cohe'stive theory with the prosecution. there were just assumptions and question marks and at the end, there were more questions than there were answers. it wasn't cohesive.
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there was nos theory. they tell from you day one in law school have a theory and follow it all the way through to the end. >> thank you both for your insights. coming up, all that sound and fury over the irs sutdly silenced? we'll allow a member of congress to explain it all just ahead. and didn't know where to start. a contractor before at angie's list, you'll find reviews on everything from home repair to healthcare
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this was the targeting of the president's political enemies effectively and lies about it during the election year. >> this is a problem that was coordinated in all likelihood right out of washington headquarters. >> this was not isolated to cincinnati, but in fact, went to washington and then went up the chain from there.
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>> that was just a short sampling of house oversight committee chairman congressman issa in his relentless media hopping accusation tour right up to this very afternoon, alleging that the white house used the irs to target the president's political enemies. and according to mr. issa, he's got only one problem in proving it. >> our biggest obstruction is, of course, a ranking member, mr. cummings who keeps saying we know everything we need to know and it's over. >> and joining us now is that very big problem, congressman elijah cummings, ranking member of the house oversight committee. thank you so much for joining us. >> good being with you. >> it seems mr. issa is summoning is his best bluster ahead of the committee hearing on this issue. i gather you've got new information that contradicts his tireless campaign against the white house and his charges against you, i might add, as well. >> yeah, first of all, chairman issa is absolutely wrong.
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i wanted to get to the bottom of all of this. and clearly, we are trying to get more information on the democratic side. we're not trying to obstruct anything. and what we have here, we've now, martin, conducted 15 interviews of irs employees in cincinnati and washington employees. >> congressman, i'd like if i may to go through some of the statements in these very transcripts. a group managering? cincinnati, i'll read them, sir, any reason to believe that the white house directed the screening and centralization of tea party cases for enhanced security in the no. i have noust idea what the house is doing. did the campaign target the screening? no, i have no idea what, who those people would be. an irs tax law specialist in washington. any evidence after attempt to target the president's political enemies?
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"no, not at all. that's kind of laughable that people think that." now, sir, those are self described republicans by the way. is that why congressman issa repeatedly refused to agree to reese these transcripts? >> i don't know why, but i do know that on come thursday, we are going to have a hearing of employees of irs, but those employees that you just mentioned are not going to be called. those are republicans who work for the irs and who have said like all the other 13, now, keep in mind i said we've now interviewed a total of 15 employees of irs, all of them, both republicans and democrats says there was no political motives involved and that the white house was not involved. there's not been one sin till lal of evidence yet linking the white house with this situation. and again, they said it wasn't even involving political
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intentions. what they were trying to do is make sure, this is based on their testimony, they wanted to make sure that they got it right. they saw cases coming in. they were trying to be consistent. this was something that as one of the witnesses said was a very, very difficult situation because this was -- these were organizations that were asking for tax exempt status. but they wanted to do political work. and they were trying to figure out how best to address them. nothing about politics. again i want to emphasize what you just read, the statements you just read came from republicans. >> yes, of course they did. >> working for the irs. >> those individuals will never be called by mr. issa. i have to ask you, congressman, doesn't mr. issa's conduct render him the very last person to be chairman of the house oversight committee? isn't it time that's considered his position? >> well, i'm not going to go that far.
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>> but congressman, surely a man who deliberately and selectively leaks information that he believes assists his side of the argument when there is no evidence to support his claim renders himself untenable as the chairman of the house oversight committeet. >> martin. >> it's ridiculous. >> martin, willet me be very clear. >> please do. >> yeah. i have a position and it is one about truth and trust and integrity. i've said it in the committee and i've shown it. whether it's the naacp or whether it's true to vote or any other organization, i'm going to fight for every single organization to be treated fairly and properly. period. >> so is it -- okay, congressman, is it. >> it's about integrity. >> is it acceptable for a man who intentionally and selectively leaks information
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and does not provide full transcripts when they contradict his position, is it right that he continue as the chairman of the house oversight committee? >> martin, i'm going to let you have your opinion. but you know that if i were to say something like that, that would be the headlines in every newspaper in the country. >> sir. >> so i'm not going to render a judgment. that's your -- i've got a job to do. let me say this. i will not be distracted with regard to their investigation. we want a complete investigation with the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. and wherever it may lead. but so far, again, martin, there have been accusations like you put out there at the beginning of the show. and there has been not one scintilla of evidence to problem na. so we have these big headlines but then there's nothing to prove it. now we've got a hearing coming up thursday which will not prove it either. so the and again, the people that you just talked about will
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not be called. those are the republicans working for the irs, career employees who said that absolutely no political intentions there. and no white house involvement. and so if we're going to get to the bottom of this, i think what the american people want is they don't want to destroy the irs. they just want it to work properly, which is what i want. the ig we're going to bring the ig coming in, inspector general because he told us that there were no just a few progressive groups, a few progressive organizations on those lists and we come to find out there are quite a few organizations and even occupy wall street was on there. we just want to get a complete investigation whether they are conservative groups, liberal groups, progressives or whatever because they're all americans. and we've got to stand up for the -- make sure that this organization which collects our taxes is doing the right thing and restoring the trust in that
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the organization. >> congressman elijah cummings, thank you so much, sir. >> thank you. >> we'll take to you orlando florida as attorney general eric holder prepares to address the national convention of the naacp. i'm only in my 60's...
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we are moments away from attorney general eric holder's speech at the annual naacp convention taking place in orlando, florida, right now. for more, craig melvin is live at the convention. craig? >> martin, good day to you. attorney general eric holder set to take to the podium in a few moments. as you can see, folks starting to file into the convention hall here. it's the naacp's 104th annual convention. roughly 4,000 people are here. and as you might imagine, the topic of conversation continues to be the verdict. the verdict. although i got to tell you, as
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i've talked to folks here on the ground over the past day or so, a lot of people are now talking about what's going to happen next. there is that online petition that has now garnered roughly 1 million signatures. attorney general holder certainly going to be talking about what the justice department could and could not do moving forward. meanwhile, against a backdrop of all of this, short time ago,cy brin nanl fulton, trayvon martin's mother says in part, we are not going to let this verdict define trayvon. keel define our son's legacy. we have a long way to go to make sure this happens to nobody else's child. that's the latest from here in orlando, back to you. >> we'll talk more about the the attorney general and listen to his live remarks in just a moment.
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we are watching live shots of
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the naacp annual convention in orlando, florida, where attorney general holder has just taken the stage. he's expected to say something about the george zimmerman trial and possibly address the issue of voting rights. let's bring in msnbc contributor and georgetown university professor is george eric dyson who joins us here in new york. what would you hope the attorney general will say today following that trial and the fact that he's addressing the naacp? >> you know is, attorney general holder has been traditionally very strong on the siebel rights issues. compare his record to that of his predecessor in the previous administration. it's a remarkable jux tal position. what i want to hear him say is that look is, we've reopened this investigation. we're going to take a hard look at the facts. we have to meet a certain burden of proof here, a certain high bar. that can be met. i think there is sample evidence to suggest the biased mind-set and prejudiced outlook of
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zimmerman and i think there is sufficient evidence to at least put the department of justice on the scene there and gather what evidence we can because we will obviously know that there was not collection of data and evidence at the scene because trayvon martin was not even seen as the victim. as a result, we didn't test george zimmerman, did he have drugs in his body. now because his civil rights were violated an unarmed young boy walking home without provocation was murdered. >> let's listen now because he's addressing the convention itself. >> the trial reached its conclusion on saturday evening. today, i'd like to join president obama in urging all-americans to recognize that as he said, we are a nation of laws and the jury has spoken. i know the naacp and its members are deeply and rightly concerned about this case as passionate civil rights leaders as engaged citizens and most of all, as parents. this afternoon, i want to assure
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you of two things. i am concerned about this case. and -- and as we confirm, the justice department has an open investigation into it. now, while that will inquiry is ongoing, i can promise that the department of justice will the consider all available information before determining what action to take. but independent of the legal determination that will be made, i believe this tragedy provides yet another opportunity for our nation to speak honestly,ing honestly and openly about the complicated and emotional charged issues that this case has raised. years ago, some of these same issues drove my father to sit down with me to have a conversation which is no doubt familiar to many of you. about how as a young black man i
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should interact with the police. what to say. and how to conduct myself if i was ever stopped or confronted in a way that i thought was unwarranted. now, i'm sure my father felt certain at that time that my parents' generation would be the last that had to worry about such things for their children. since those days our country has indeed changed for the better. the fact that i stand before you as the 2nd attorney general of the united states serving in the administration of our first african-american president proves that. yet, for all the progress that we've seen recent events demonstrate that we still have much more work to do. and much further to go. thenous of trayvon martin's death last year and the discussions that have taken place since then reminded me of my father's words so many years ago. and they will brought me back to
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a number of experiences that i had as a young man when i was pulled over twice in and my car searched on the new jersey turnpike when i'm sure i wasn't speeding. or when i was stopped by a police officer while simply running to catch a movie at night in georgetown in washington, d.c. i was at the time of that last incident a federal prosecutor. so trayvon's death last spring caused me to sit down to have a conversation with my own 15-year-old son. like my dad did with me. this was a father/son tradition i hoped would not need to be handed down. but as a father who loves his son and who is more knowing in the ways of the world, i had to do this to protect my boy. i am his father.
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and it is my responsibility, not to burden him with the baggage of eras long gone but to make him aware of the world that he must still confront. this, this is a sad reality in a nation that is changing for the better in so many ways. as important as it was, i am determined to do everything in my power to ensure that the kind of talk i had with my son isn't the only conversation that we engage in as a result of these tragic events. in the days leading up 0 this weekend's verdict some predicted and prepared for riots, and waves of civil unrest across the country. some feared that the anger of those who disagreed with the jury might obscure the issues at the heart of this case, but the people of sanford and for the most part thousands of others across america rejected this destructive past.
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they proved -- they proved wrong. those who doubted their commitment to the rule of law and across america, did i verse groups of citizens from all races, backgrounds and walks of life are instead overwhelmingly making their voices heard as american citizens have the right to do. through peaceful protests, rallies and vigils, designed to inspire responsible debate. not to incite violence and division. and those who conduct themselves in a contrary manner do not honor at memory of trayvon martin. i hope -- i hope that we will continue to approach this necessarily difficult dialogue with the same dignity that those who have lost the most trayvon's parents with the same dignity that they have demonstrated throughout the last year and especially over the past few days. we should be proud of those two people.
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they suffered a pain that many no parent should have to endure. and one that i as a father cannot begin to conceive. as we embrace their example and as we hold them in our prayers, we must not forego this opportunity to better understand one another. and we must not fail to seize this chance to improve this nation that we cherish. today, starting here and starting now, it's time to commit ourselves to a respectful responsible dialogue about issues of justice and equality so we can meet division and confusion with understanding and compassion and ultimately with truth however hard that is. it's time to strengthen our collective resolve to combat gun violence but also time to combat violence involving or directed toward our children. so we can prevent future tragedies.
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and we must confront the underlying attitudes, the mistaken beliefs, and the unfortunate stereotypes that serve too often as the basis for police action and private judgments. separate and apart from the case that has drawn the nation's attention, it's time to question laws that senselessly expand the concept of self-defense and so dangerous conflict in our neighborhoods. these laws try to fix something that was never broken. there has always been a legal defense for using deadly force if, and the if is in important, if no safe retreat is available. but we must examine laws that take this further by eliminating the common sense and age old
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requirement that people who feel threatened have a duty to retreat outside their home if they can do so safely. by allowing and perhaps encouraging violent situations to escalate in public such laws undermine public safety. the list of resulting tragedies is long. and unfortunately has victimized too many who are innocent. it is our collective obligation. we must stand our ground. to ensure -- [ applause ] we must stand our ground to ensure that our laws reduce violence and take a hard look at laws that contribute to more violence than they prevent. we must also seek a dialogue on attitudes about violence and
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disparities that are too commonly swept under the rugby honoring the finest traditions established by generations of naacp leaders and other nonviolent leaders throughout history and paying tribute to the young man who lost his life here last year and so many others whose futures have been cut short in other incidents of gun violence that have passed too often unnoticed in our streets. and we must do so by engaging with one another in a way that is at once peaceful inclusive, respectful and strong. as we move forward together, i want to assure you that the department of justice will continue to act in a manner that is consistent with the facts and the law. we will not be afraid. we are committed -- we are committed to do everything possible to ensure that in every
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case, in every circumstance, and in every community, justice must be done. >> we've been listening to attorney general eric holder addressing the naacp national convention. he will continue to speak but i'm joined now by professor michael eric dyson who has been listening with me to the speech. the attorney general talked about having to sit down with his own 15-year-old son and have the conversation that he wished would have stopped when his own father had to speak to him about what it means to be a young black person in this country. but i have to say the burden always seems to rest on the shoulders of the black individual. >> that's absolutely right. and you're absolutely right. eric holder knows as a black man that he has to have that conversation as i have that will conversation with my son and grandchildren. but the reality is, why is the burden shifted on to us? why is it trayvon martin has to be careful how he looks? if he wears a hoodie? he shouldn't run. here's the point. george zimmerman wasn't even a
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policeman. he was an ordinary citizen. should i now show my freedom papers as if in slavery to any person who asks evidence of my freedom and have to produce evidence that i am an american citizen and solid with a person waving a gun that i can't stand my ground? this shifts the burd onto the lives of african-american men in particular and i think that's part of the tragedy here that the stand your ground laws simply don't address. >> the attorney general said he wants us to have an honest conversation. there's a piece in today's "washington post" in richard cohen, the columnist, is taking a lot of schtick for. here's a sample. i don't like what george zimmerman did and i hate that trayvon martin is dead but i also can understand why zimmerman was suspicious and why he thought you martin was wearing a an ux we all recognize. i have to ask you, does that mean that every time mark zublger berg leaves his house in
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a hoodie in san francisco, we should profile him as a potential burglar? >> you know the answer. mr. cohen hot to be ashamed of himself. this is a bald naked assertion of racial profiling. he negates everything that came before that will "but" by what comes after it. to suggest that it is legitimate and under be that his uniform is -- the uniform is his skin, the uniform is his demeanor. what looks suspicious has been constructed where blackness is enough to signify you're out to do harm. i was in my hotel checking in and ran into the best friend of george zimmerman who said to me, i see you on msnbc and we had a civil conversation. very aggressive, nonhostile. i said to him, sir, your best friend has murdered an unarmed man. why wasn't he arrested? he said there was no probably cause. i said listen to what you just said. a boy is dead. the man who killed him is there
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free. at the very least, if everything he said is true, take him to jail, check his story out and come back been. that's because black people are never allowed to be innocent or walking down a street without feeling that somehow we have to produce more than our bodies. white people will never understand or other who are not people of color will not understand till their communities are ravaged in the same way. all the logic will never penetrate the husk of that bias that he so eloquently but brutally manifests in his column. >> michael eric dyson, thank you sir. coming up, the sounds of kumbiya in the senate. wait to see this. [ female announcer ] first kid you ready? [ female announcer ] by their second kid, every mom is an expert and more likely to choose luvs than first time moms. live, learn, & get luvs.
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\ s it is a busy day in the nation's capital where bipartisanship of all things seem to break out in the most unexpected places. but how much actual work is getting done? well, that's another question.
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to help us find an answer, we're joined by david corn washington bureau cheer for mother jones magazine and the author most recently of the center holes. as you know, jonathan, congress has been earning its 8% approval ratings recently. tonight senate leaders announced that it will preserve the filibuster. >> it was a bad deal. the nuclear option which shouldn't be called that which would be a return to common sense would have said that republicans or democrats if the shoe were on the other foot could the continue to filibuster legislation, continue to filibuster judges and supreme court justices. they wouldn't be able to filibuster in the same way the president's appointees for his i administration's positions. now, to me, this was a totally reasonable thing for harry reid to have done and the fact that he backed off today and cut a deal, that he by the way could
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have cut years too long allow some of these nominees who have been delayed in some cases for two years before they could actually hold the office to which they were appointed, for them not even to have gotten up or down votes. so now he threw a couple of hostages, you know, tossed them to mitch mcconnell from the national labor relations board in exchange for getting these other nominees through and they just cut a deal. similar to what they did about ten years ago and they preserved this ridiculous system which he says is good for the senate but is not good for the country. >> david, is bipartisanship breaking out all over capitol hill? you have the filibuster agreement. then have you none other than rand paul and ted cruz working with kirs stin gillibrand on sexual assaults in the military. take a listen to this. >> i was persuaded by senator gillibrand's exceptional little passionate and able advocacy.
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>> i see no reason why conservatives shouldn't support this. the only thing i think standing in the way is sort of the status quo. >> what the dickens is going on, david? >> look behind me. i think it's snowing. >> i believe i saw a pig just flying over your left ear. >> it's interesting because you know that there's the whole fight on the republican side about what to do after the last election and the rnc came out with a report, we've got to do more in terms of appealing to women and latinos and gays. a lot of people on the right didn't like the way the rnc went about doing that, social conservatives. but here you saw two tea partiers, sort of libertarian stripe find a way to do something on women's issues that doesn't involve, you know, transvaginal probes, abortion and all the other hot button issues that get i think in some ways it was very smart and shows in some ways rand paul and ted cruz might
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have the better political instincts than the people running their own party and finding a way to go about doing this. and you combine that with the deal which was bipartisan, i don't think it's as bad as jonathan makes it out to be. it was a little bit of a wimping out at the end by hairy reid but i think he still preserved the right to ram this through if they continue to come back with him on these appointments. >> just when you say rand paul and the people running the republican party, rand paul is now in essence running the republican party and the senate. here's why. his people, his political people are the ones behind mitch mcconnell's re-election campaign. so mitch mcconnell isn't going to do anything that would upset rand paul and for all practical purposes his colleague from kentucky is in the driver's seat. >> david i have to ask you, has this is opposition to absolutely everything this president has tried to do, has it struck you as being unprecedented? i mean, we can't even get people
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in positions that are not even controversial, but it would actually be helpful to the functioning of governance. >> there are so many different metrics to measure this. since we're talking about executive appointments i think in the whole history of this grand country of ours,ing 20, 20 presidential appointees have been blocked by filibusters up till president obama's time and 16 have been blocked by these republicans. so they have really gone out of their ways to set historic records in terms of obstructionism and yet, we in washington and i think more in the general media haven't fully gotten to this narrative story point that this is far and beyond what we've ever seen before. >> that's why reid should have ended it today and it's too bad he didn't. >> thank you both. we'll be right back in a moment.
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2:00 pm chris matthews and "hardball" as usual is next. inside the jury room. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in san francisco. let me start tonight with this. a juror speaks. juror number b-37 said that there was a difference in the initial vote when they started deliberations last friday in sanford, florida. not all of the six women had the same judgment of what they heard during the many weeks of trial of george zimmerman. one of the jurors, according to juror b-37, wanted to convict the defendant of second degree murder. two of the jurors were ready to convict on manslaughter. so this raises the question. at least to a degree of whether a stronger prosecution case or a weaker performance by


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