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tv   Ted Bundy - Death Row Tapes  MSNBC  October 6, 2013 3:00am-4:01am PDT

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abandonment are unchanged. that's our report, thanks for watching. i don't think anybody doubts that i have done bad things t. question is what, of course, and how and most importantly, why. people constantly ask me, why? >> he was born theodore robert cowell. cowell, otherwise known as ted bundy confounded authorities with his killing spree. while on death row, bundy agrees to a series of interviews.
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basically when i reeshed the car, i knocked her unconscious. >> a seattle cop hoping to coax a last confession from the serial killer, days from the electric chair. >> she was unconscious. she was very much alive. >> instead, he hears it secret story and primal thoughts that turn theodore robert cowell into ted bundy. >> when and where did you first murder? >> you know what's going to happen when this goes public? it's january, 1989 and the clock is ticking on the life of
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serial killer, ted bundy. he is seven days away from execution. florida authorities are not going to allow him to avoid the electric chair again. >> first of all, ted bundy, seven days is a short time. >> it's almost 11 years since the crime was committed. i don't consider it short at all. the death warrant was property signed and justice needs to prevail. it should take place next tuesday. >> he was convicted of killing 12 college students and a 12-year-old girl in florida. they are trying to get bundy to admit he killed dozens of other women in a cross country rampage. one is a former seattle detective who has been hunting bundy for decades. he wants to know what he is
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willing to say about other missing women. >> testing, one, two, three, four, five, six. >> no bones about it, i am looking for an opportunity to tell the story as best i can in a way that makes sense to me in a way that will help, not just you or the families, but that's very important. but, also to help my own family. i don't think anybody doubts i have done bad things, the question is what, of course and when and how and most importantly, why. >> to me, the why never caught anybody. the tops and their mentality. we're stuck with you wanting the why. >> i'm not trying to convince you, bob, that you should be interested in the why. i think a lot of people are. i am. i think a lot of people are interested in why. people constantly will ask me, why?
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>> a lot of people are interested in why he did what he did. i wanted to find out as much detail as i could rather than that. he could have said anything. >> well, let me start with one. let me start this way. the unidentified remains, this is where the presence of the officers down here is unnerving. i can write it down, i just don't want the police getting any kind of names at this point. >> he didn't want anybody to know who he was talking about. the best thing would be for him to write down the name and he would show it to me. >> then i'll write the name down for you. the name i just wrote down is georgeann hawkins.
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can you hear that? like i said, the hawkins girl's head was severed and taken up the road. 45 to 50 yards and buried in a location about ten yards west of the road on a rocky hillside. >> probably you would have found the damage to the head. the jaw in particular probably broken. if you found that, you would have known who it was. up that dirt road, beyond the grassy area, i'll try to trace it here on a piece of paper, how about that? it might help. i'm working from pretty old memories. well, let's do it this way. here is the grassy area, the road coming up, trees to the northwest of this grassy area. >> he drew a map as to where her skull might be found. it was as though he buried it.
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but, we never found the skull. >> i can't remember what night of the week it was, thursday night, i believe, i don't know. 11:00 or 12:00, probably closer to 12:00 on a warm, seattle night. i think it was clear. whether had been fairly good. i was moving up the alley, using a briefcase and some crutches. the young woman walked down. i saw her round the north end of the block into the alley and stop for a moment, then keep on walking down the alley toward me. about half way down the block, i encountered her and asked her to help me carry the briefcase, which she did and we walked back up the alley. across the street, turned right on the sidewalk and found the fraternity house on the corner there.
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midway in the block there was a parking lot there, dirt surface, no lights. my car was parked there. >> let me stop the tape. >> the interest he had in telling us about gerogeann hawkins, he had a lot of detail about her. i believe he wanted to give us detail about her. >> basically, i reached the car and what happened was i knocked her unconscious with a crowbar. >> did she see it? >> no. there were handcuffs there along with the crowbar and i handcuffed her and put her in the passenger side of the car and drove away. >> was he alive or dead? >> she was unconscious, but very much alive.
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coming up, after 15 years of chasing him, investigator bob keppel is about to hear how bundy killed one of his victims. >> i knocked her unconscious and strangled her. maybe you've already heard what they're saying about the nissan altima. ♪ and we have to admit, that it's all true. but don't just take their word for it, check it out for yourself. the award-winning nissan altima. nissan. innovation that excites. now get a $179 per month lease on a 2013 nissan altima. ♪ now getat any minute...h lease on a 2013 nissan altima. could be a victim of fraud. most people don't even know it. fraud could mean lower credit scores, higher loan rates... ...and maybe not getting the car you want. it's a problem waiting to happen.
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with his execution days away, serial killer ted bundy is about to confess to a crime. the killing of university of washington student georgeann hawkins. bob keppel sits with the killer on florida's death row, recording the conversation. >> going up the hill, down the
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road and to the grassy area. parked, took her out of the van and took the handcuffs off her. she regained consciousness at this time, basically and gee, this is probably the hardest part, i don't know. one of the things that makes it difficult is at this point, she was quite loose in talking about things. itis odd the kinds of things people will say under those circumstances. she said she thought she had a spanish test the next day and thought i had taken her to help tutor me for her spanish test. it was kind of odd. odd thing to say. >> to hear him talk in detail about the ride from the uw to the crime scene, that was something that only the killer would know.
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>> the long and short of it was that i, again, knocked her unconscious and drug her about ten yard sboos the small grove of trees. >> what did you strangle her with? >> a cord. by this time, it was about dawn. sun was coming up. i went through my usual routine, on this particular morning, i was, again, shocked and scared to death shocked, horrified. i went down the road throwing everything that i'd had throwing the briefcase, crushes and rope, tossing them out the window. i was in a sheer state of panic, just absolute horror. the consciousness of what has really happened. it's like you break out of a fever or something. i drove east on 90, at some point throwing articles out the
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window as i went, articles of clothing, shoes, et cetera. >> when did you remove those? >> what? >> clothing. >> after we got out of the car. well, i skipped over some stuff there. we'll have to get back to it sometime. it's just too hard to talk about right now. did you throw away your own stuff? >> sure. the briefcase and crushes. and the crowbar, handcuffs, everything. i got mad at myself because i'd have to go out and buy another pair. it's not comical, but that's what happened. >> now that you have had time to think about her, is there something you can tell me about her that probably only you and her know? >> she said everybody called her george. that's what she said. or how about she used a safety pin because her blue slacks were
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too big. >> when you look at the name, pinned up pants, those are things only the killer would know. >> jest went back to check out the site, make sure nothing had been there. i suspected she wouldn't have been there that somehow i hasn'ted killed her. i wanted to make sure oh, that's what it was. talk about details coming back. i couldn't find one of the shoes. i thought it was there, but it wasn't. i went back, this is the next day, got on my bicycle, road back to the parking lot. i knew police were all over the place at that time. i was nervous because -- i'll tell you why in a minute. i went back to the parking lot, found the pierced earrings and shoe in the parking lot. it was about 5:00 in the afternoon. i gathered them up and rode off.
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>> after the police checked that area? >> you tell me. i had seen them all over the place. they couldn't look in the parking lot and miss the shoe and two white earrings, they were hoops. the reason i was so nervous about anything being in the marking lot is no more than two weeks ago, i had been using the same modus. the same sorority house. i was drunk and babbling on. i told her i worked in olympia and lived in a rooming house. i got all the way to the car and said i don't want to do it, said thank you and she walked away. after the hawkins thing, i was paranoid as hell that a girl
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would say something weird happened. he took me to a car and lived in olympia. how many people could that apply to. there you are. >> i wanted to get as much out of him as i could. i was ready for him to stay alive. >> what the attorney general washington willing to go? >> anything. >> he was wondering if i could do anything to help stay his execution. i said oh, yes, i could. but i knew i couldn't. >> bundy realizes this may be the last time he talks to bob keppel and makes a last plea for his execution to be delayed so he can tell keppel more. >> one of the things i'm concerned about -- >> we've accomplished something
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here but -- i don't know what you want to do. you have been on this case so to speak, the bundy case for a long time. i know you must deep seeded feelings about it. i don't want to make too many a assumptions but i want the truth. the truth is going to be helpful, a broader truth, that's my bottom line. there's no way it can be done in these circumstances. i'm not holding you hostage, if you don't want to do anything with it, you are free to walk away. if you can put your heads together with other law enforcement people and think of a way, i'm not asking for clemency or asking to get off, i'm not asking for sympathy, but i draw the line. we need a period of time, 60, 90 days going over it with everybody, bottom to top, everything i can think of, get it all down. you can use it as you see fit.
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i will not put myself in position of giving it all away and not getting the kind of result that i think is best for my people and, bob, they are going to get me sooner or later. you don't need to worry about that. but you have been after this for 15 years. a couple months is not going to make any difference. coming up, we go back ten years to hear ted bundy say in another interview he often debated with himself about whether to kill. >> it was a challenge to determine whether or not he would actually kill the girl. you were out sick last week. my asthma doesn't bother my family... you coughed all through our date night! i hardly use my rescue inhaler at all. what did you say? how about - every day?
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♪ it's sunday evening, january 22nd, 1989. florida's prison. inside, serial killer, ted bundy is less than 48 hours away from
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execution. convicted of killing a 12-year-old girl and two college students at florida state university, bundy is also the primary suspect in the disappearances of dozens of other women across the united states. seattle investigator, bob keppel spent years attempting to pry information out of bundy. a former law student known for his intelligence and knowledge of how to play the legal system. >> yeah, i know more about my class is graduating in about a month. >> law school? >> now at the 11th hour, as he's done several times before, bundy says he'll talk. investigators wonder if it's just another game of cat and mouse, a game he's been playing for nearly ten years. >> ted bundy first came to my attention in 1979 when i was
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working for business week magazine in new york. my agent called me up and asked if i knew anything about this serial killer who was being tried down in florida. in fact, i knew nothing about ted. his fame had not spread to new york at that time. i went to florida. he was in the miami city jail for the trial of a killing. i asked him what he wanted to get out of the deal. he said well, i'm innocent. i think if i did a book, it would be a benefit to law enforcement how an innocent man can be caught up in deceit and lies and misinformation. >> listen, i have been kept in isolation for six months, i have been kept away from the press. i have been buried by you. you have been talking for six months, i think it's my turn now. >> i said ted, i'm interested in talking to you and you telling me the truth. he said, i'll tell you the truth. the deal we struck was my
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partner would go west and reinvestigate all the cases against bundy and i would babysit him in florida, sit through the trial. that's the way it began. >> so, where were we? >> recording. speak up. the red light comes on. >> okay. >> bundy took the witness stand wearing sport coat and seattle mariners shirt. >> it was interesting to meet him because ted was so clever, in a way i was unfamiliar. when i got started with ted, i said, okay, let's take it from the top, go through your life. quickly, it was clear ted thought of this as a celebrity bio that, you know, he's bundy, the cover boy. >> for much of the conversation he talks in circles. >> where was the bridge made?
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why was the bridge made to -- >> attacking women or running for president, whatever. people find various outlets for insecurities and hostilities to compensate. i don't really have a good answer. >> i didn't have any leverage with him. he had all the knowledge in his head. after quite a bit of this, one night, i had an -- he was boyishly handsome, boyish demeanor. the more i thought about it, the more it occurred to me he wasn't just boyish, he was a boy. he seemed to be about 12 years old. i said to myself, how do you deal with a 12-year-old with some really awful secrets you want to get out? not having any better ideas, i went into the prison and said
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ted, you have a unique position. not only as the defendant and suspect, but you are familiar with all the facts, you are a psychology student, you are a student of the human mind and know more about the story than anybody knows so why don't you tell me what you think happened? how does a person become a serial killer. he grabbed the tape recorder out of my hand and pulled it near his chin, sort of looking down into it and closed his eyes and started telling the story. coming up, ted bundy tells stephen what it takes to become a serial killer. >> it's based on opportunity. relatively easy crime to get away with. ♪ ♪
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from the group behind the attack in kenya. ordering most of the 400,000 purr lowed employees back to work due to the pay our military act. now, back to the program. ♪ serial killer, ted bundy spent most of his life in the pacific northwest, specifically tacoma and seattle. many of his known victims were abducted in the early to mid-1970s near the university of washington. he would knock out the girls, drive them outside of town to
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the mountains east of the city, where he would rape them and then kill them. >> ted is a sociopath or psychopath. the psychopathic mind looks at interpersonal relationships than the rest of us. all relationships are on a power grid. all you are doing when you are interacting with other people is trying to get over on them. you are trying to establish your control of the situation. >> i asked you what would happen between the time there was an arrival in king county and the mountains. you said there were two possibilities. >> you asked me to speculate. i have gone through hours of this with other people. you asked me what happened. i can't tell you what happened. i can assist you with my educated guesses. >> when you are being manipulated by one of these guys, you make mistakes.
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one of my earliest mistakes is being incapable of understanding that bundy was not only a killer, but he enjoyed being a killer. it was his life, the center of his being. everything else, as this developed in his life was put in place to support the entity, the part of him that was disordered, if you will. ted conceived of himself as being 99% normal. i have this little sliver where he liked to go out and bash girls over the head. >> rather than being tormented by the evil of the works he had done, he was more likely to be tormented by the inability to satisfy as frequently as he desired, the needs of that condition that dwelled within him. he would still be in society, being exposed to the same elements that were the root of his disorder. he would still be out there
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subjected to the television ads and the girly magazines and the women in hot pants in the streets and all the things that nurtured his condition. when we got into stuff that was intimate, ted often took the recorder and sort of left me to watch. one time, we were talking about how the entity functioned in a high publicity mode. so, he's driving around the road one day. he sees a girl hitchhiking. again, this is bundy telling the story. >> he talks a lot, but never refers to himself in first person. instead, he only talks about a killer and never gives him a name. >> attractive 17-year-old girl hitchhiking. she agreed to go to his house. she got very, very drunk. they engaged in voluntary sexual activities. throughout the evening, this man
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would feel himself being tested whether to kill her or let the situation run its course. this was in a reformation period. he swore he would never engage in that kind of conduct again, never let himself get in a situation like that. given this situation, a challenge of whether he would kill the girl. >> it sounds weird, but true. there are a couple occasions where he would go off in a state, i don't know if you would call it a trance or something and a welt would form across his left cheek. it would go across. it was pure white. when he would put down the tape recorder and light a cigarette, it would slowly fadeaway. it was like a stigmata. >> when morning came around, they dressed and took the girl back to the area where she lived, he felt he accomplished
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something. the reason he hadn't killed the girl is that condition, the entity, that disorder was not active or aroused. it was in a period of remission. >> the cases we discussed always ended in murder. the cases were things i knew about. i knew how to girl disappeared or how she was found. >> he was interested in georgeann hawkins. her disappearance in 1974 would come up again and again throughout bundy's decade long string of interviews on death row. >> georgeann hawkins was seen last evening. she was returning to her house a half block away down this alley. police believe she went along this route and then somewhere, she disappeared. >> the disappearance of georgeann hau kins from the university of washington is an
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interesting case. once again, no evidence at all. i mean just zippo. what i find interesting about it is she's accosted and the approach would have had to have been within something like 40 years as she was walking from one pool of light to another. >> more likely than not, she encountered someone she knew in that space of time. >> that's one thing that seemed most likely. the other thing that occurred is someone with a great deal of nerve could have, as she walked under a shadow hit her on the head. >> i don't know. >> you don't feel you're in a position to speculate. >> we could say this happened or that happened. in the case of hawkins, it just doesn't fit. it does and it doesn't, but so
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many other things fit, where do you draw the line. >> he never talks in first person about crimes he may have committed, he has no problem talking about how someone else mare been a successful serial killer. >> if you think about that situation a person is in, what is he going to do with it? ideally, an incinerator in the basement and there wouldn't be a problem at all in that respect. >> he never wastes and opportunity to turn on the charm. telling him the author may have what it takes to be just like him. >> i think you could become a fairly effective mass murderer. anybody with that capacity, it takes skill and thought to do it. the nature of the crime is based on opportunity. it's a relatively easy kind of crime to get away with.
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coming up, as the seattle area deals with another string of unsolved murders, police receive a letter from florida's death row. ted bundy says he knows how to catch the killer. across america people are taking charge of their type 2 diabetes with non-insulin victoza®. for a while, i took a pill to lower my blood sugar, but it didn't get me to my goal. so i asked my doctor about victoza®. he said victoza® is different than pills. victoza® is proven to lower blood sugar and a1c.
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i ordered another pair. i'm happy. (both) i'm happy. i'm happy. happy. happy. happy. happy. happy happy. i love logistics. ♪ in 1982, seattle, again, witnesses the disappearance and deaths of dozens of young women. seattle investigator, bob keppel, who worked on the ted bundy task force is again looking for clues in the rugged wilderness around the city. with us from king in seattle is bob keppel, the chief detective
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on the ted bundy case, now a consultant to the green river task force. does this help you find the next one or illustrate why it's so hard to find and stop these people? >> one of the problems is police departments don't recognize soon enough the serial. we have been guilty for years of not communicating to each other well enough. >> i think there was an element of people thinking deja vu all over again because within the first week, there were five bodies found in or on the green river in one spot. >> once the killing started, keppel and others of the green river task force received a strange offer of help, ted bundy, sitting on florida's death row said he could help police find the killer. >> we wanted to make sure he was never tipped off about the real
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reason we were there to talk to him. the idea was to get him talking about green river and what he would say is basically what he was doing as a killer. >> this is a tape recorded interview between bob keppel,dave reichert and ted bundy. the date is 11/17 of 1984 and the time is 158 hours. one of the reasons that piqued my interest was some of the dump sites. you may have knowledge that may assist us in that area. >> well, first of all, trying to dispose of the bodies where they won't be found. this guy doesn't want to get caught. it's clear, over time, it would appear, over time, he's trying to improve the dump sites and get better as disposing the body. i bet he's getting nervous. look at how it's unfolding.
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>> you found these, first of all, quickly, coffield, chapman, hinds and mills. at least not for awhile. he goes back to dry land with number six. >> you have to figure a guy like bundy has been talked to many, many, many times. there's a good chance, as clever and smart as he was that he may pick up on the fact we would ask him questions that only ted bundy, the killer, would know. >> let's say he's continuing. what do you think his next step would be? >> who knows. this guy is learning. he's trying to find the best way to dispose of his bodies he can think of. in the interim he's dumping the
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body. >> how about after he found them? >> he wouldn't touch them with a ten-mile pole. >> i think he was of the belief that we couldn't draw anything out of him. he wanted to be kingpin, tough guy. he was always talking with us like he was in control. but, he was, in fact, talking with the wool pulled over his eyes. we asked him what we could do, as investigators to help identify potential suspects and that's when he brought up the sex slasher film festival. >> there's always the link between sex and violence. i think it's safe to say the guy fantasizes a lot and he finds ways to vicariously experience the thing that is get him off. in this case, it's killing young women. like anybody else who has an obsession, he has ways he
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vicarious lly satisfies it. one way he gets off is slasher films. i know it sounds weird. what i would do is i would find the bloodiest, coolest slasher move that's out there that's never been shown, a vivid, lurid, sex murder kind of flick. >> the investigators decide to go. what they want bundy to do is talk about his involvement in his own crimes. >> can you see ted bundy contacting us in the future saying i'm ready talk? >> yes, i can see myself talking to you sometime. >> how about within the next two or three hours? >> nice try. >> i would certainly like to be able to. >> bundy doesn't help.
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he continues to lead investigators down dead ends. keppel leaves florida thinking he would never leasee bundy aga. >> you don't have to answer this question, but if and when ted is finally executed, what would your feelings be? >> i don't know what they would be right now. i'll tell you more about that when it happens. >> but four years later, keppel returns. bundy is still on death row. keppel wonders if he can finally get bundy to admit to something. keppel visits the prison unannounced. this time, he doesn't want to talk about the green river killer. he wants to talk about ted bundy. >> he didn't know why i was there. the only reason i was there was to talk to him. i didn't have a reason other
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than that. >> how does a detective talk to somebody without judging? >> that's hard. that's very hard. the scary thing is you have to have real empathy, real, not phony. not just call him by his first name and give him coffee and give him cigarettes, the standard procedure of putting a guy at ease. there has to be an empathy. it sounds lax in judgment. >> they have a particular view of the world you have to discover. why does this one guy not want to talk about the 12 and 13-year-olds he may have killed. he may have killed a dozen. but he'll talk about the prostitutes he killed. his morality of murder, if you will, is such that you can talk about some, not others. >> his morality of murder is that it was okay to kill. >> the system, as it stands now, is not really geared to getting
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at the truth. what motivations would there be for someone in that position to talk to anyone? >> how about somebody like yourself. obviously a student in a game here. admitted by your own admission several time that is you really like talking to other people about this stuff. you obviously like talking to me about it, otherwise, you wouldn't be doing it. >> with me, i do enjoy it. that interest ebbs and flows. sometimes i'm more interested in talking about it rather than others. if i had a choice, i would rather be outside running around in the sunshine. coming up, seattle detective bob keppel has one last chance to get information out of the nation's most notorious serial killer, ted bundy.
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♪ they wanted things to be made clear here to law enforcement. i think they'll realize is you don't negotiate with a murderer. you don't negotiate with a killer. he certainly could have come clean. now, all of a sudden, he wants to tell the truth. this is a public statement to response to inquiries, we are not considering that request. >> every news agency in the world knew tuesday morning was it. >> it's less than two days before bundy's scheduled execution. keppel interviews bundy for two hours. he is one of the last members of law enforcement to sit down with the killer. in the end, bundy admits to killing more than a dozen additional women and gives police leads on a dozen more.
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>> sunday was my last time to talk to him. i went in for my two-hour session. he was exhausted. he was out of it. i was pushing him. hard. >> the only thing we could possibly cover that may add to some of the answers is a location of donna manson. she's the one that's missing. we never found anything we think is her at all. >> 19-year-old donna manson went missing march 12, 1974. >> highway 18 out here, there's a quarter section. most of what we found is here. we found hair, skull, skull, jawbone, jawbone. we never found any bones. now are those bodies buried out there someplace?
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or are they someplace elsewhere no one has ever found them? >> i won't beat around the bush with you anymore. i'm just tired. i want to go to sleep. >> okay. >> le me say the head, however, the cull, won't be there. >> where is it? >> nowhere. >> it's nowhere? >> it's in a category by itself. i just assume, this is something you just can't -- i can see the headlines now. >> there's not going to be details. what you told me about georgean hawkins, there's parents that don't want to know the details. >> it's incinerated. >> where did you incinerate it? come on, partner. these are things i don't know about you. >> this is probably the disposal method of preference among those
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who get away with it. most bizarre, bizarre thing i've ever been associated with. >> tell me about it. what the hell happened? >> it's not that humorous but, in the fireplace. >> burn it all up? >> down to the last ash. paranoia, clenliness, what have you, packing down the ashes. that's the twist. >> yeah, a slight twist. >> this may have been bundy's last chance to tell the truth, but detective keppel didn't buy it. >> have you ever burned a skull before? well, my problem with it is, i don't think he could. i was anxious for him to tell me more in those last two hours. i wanted to see if he would screw up, make a mistake, tell me something i didn't suspect him of but he held out. we'll say that about him, he
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held out. >> i would like to ask one last question. >> oh, boy. >> when and where were your first murder? >> one more question, right? we'll have to do that some other time. if there is another time. >> he was once bright, articulate and a monster. he confessed to murdering more than 20 young women and he was a suspect in several more killings. only at the end did he talk freely about his behavior. >> i went home on monday. i figured it wasn't worth me being there. i didn't care to see him executed. i had seen enough dead people in my time. didn't need to worry about him. >> the signal has come shortly after 7:00. >> that's it. that's it. >> hey, good-bye. >> ted is the platinum standard for serial murder. basketball, there's michael jordan, baseball, babe ruth and
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in his specialty, there's ted. nobody is near him. ted offends the mind. he was as credible a young man as he could possibly be. looked good, spoke well, intelligent and yet he was a pervert on the evidence. he murdered girls, buried them, dug them up and buried them again. he bashed in their skulls. he really was into it. it was his favorite thing to do. >> he didn't tell the truth. sure, he told the truth about pieces of things, but there was so many things he didn't tell the truth about. >> you ever physically harmed anyone? >> ever physically harmed anyone? no. no. you know, again, not in the context you are speaking of.
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bouncing boehner. let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews up in boston. let me start tonight with this. this weekends with john boehner being dribbled along the court like an ohio state basketball. he bounces up and says he has a deal with democrats. he hits the floor again because some right winger yells something nasty. why is this guy so unable to do what will make him a profile? isn't there better ways to end your career than being bounced around by people you don't respect?


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