tv Morning Joe MSNBC December 17, 2014 3:00am-6:01am PST
questions, jeb bush is asking himself, while actively exploring a run for president. no. 10, am i sure i want to embarrass the family? no. 9, can i find a running mate as likable as dig cheney? and no. 8, if i run, who will rig the election if florida? no. 7, do i have what it takes to be america's final president?
no. 6, have i ever e-mailed anyone at sony? no. 5, did mitt romney prove americans don't like made-up first names. no. 4, is america ready for its 44th white guy president? no. 3, would i have to leave miami? no. 2, are there any countries left to invade? and the no 1 question jeb bush is asking himself, is it a big deal that i was born in kenya? >> oh my goodness, so it begins. good morning, december 17th, with us on set, jeremy peters, former governor of vermont and former chairman of the democratic national committee howard dean, president and ceo of political and road calls editor-in-chief, christina bellatoni, political analyst and the former chairman of the republican national committee
michael steel. michael the jeb announcement yesterday sort of jeb announcement non-announcement. >> that brings form very quickly to the republican party. >> it does, very, very quickly. the alsos who want to get in there, the ted cruzs and rand paul. they started with the space. they want to kind of build on it. it will flow differently the organization will flow differently, it will be interesting to see how much his father brings to the table. he had a big organization if florida. how he utilizes that to launch it will be interesting to see. first, breaking feuds overnight related to the massive sony data breach, which has now gone from a hacking story to a terror
story. a spokesperson for the landmark sunshine cinema confirms sony has cancelled thursday's new york premier of the movie "the interview." this comes just hours after stars james franco and seth rogen pulled out of all publicity aexperiences, including the "tonight show" and "late night" with seth meyers on nbc. the group claiming to be behind the sony hacked envoked 9-11 threatening to show the movie. they say there is no credible evidence of any terror plot. sony is now allowing theaters not to show the film. so far, one point of view cane is taking sony up on its offer. georgia-based carmike cinemas, which has nearly 300 theaters in 41 states. meanwhile, two former employees filed a national class action lawsuit. they claim they did not do enough to protect their personal information. the latest leak from the hackers
appears to be the entire e-mail inbox of sony pictures chairperson and ceo michael linton from 2008 to 2014. screen writer eric sorkin is urging the media to report on the content of the stolen e-mails. >> is there anything in these e-mails at all in the public interest, that points to wrong doing at the company? that helps anyone? there isn't. there is gossip there. just a few weeks ago, that cloud was hacked into and naked photographs of women who we know, famous women were made available to the press. i thought we all did a good job of preemptively telling the press, if you publish these things, you are being sleazy. this is the exact same situation, only worse by magnitudes. >> this is the exact same situation, except it is worse by
magnitude. >> i don't think it's the same situation. >> i think it's actually worse. there may be news worthy stuff in there. this is interesting to me, coming from the profession i come from. these guys have been my torture from time to time. i am used to having everything i do. i don't see what corporations shouldn't either. >> except for the personnel records. >> you think people's e-mails they thought were going to be kept private should be hacked by the north korean government? and then spread out all over the front pages? >> i don't think they should be hacked by the government. >> should we show what the north korean government should do? >> that's up to the media. i think they will. >> the standard will be fine for us to suddenly report on every single e-mail i wrote or you wrote? >> if i was running for president and you had my e-mails. >> as a public official.
we are going to be. >> is it a media story or a crimestory? it's not necessarily fair for me to put it on us, oh, do you publish them or not publish them? this is a criminal act. if someone dumped an archive of any physical or somebody in the spotlight. i will look at that, do you publish this? >> is eight criminal act made by north korea, the worst nation on this planet should you really do the bidding of that regime? >> it's not the bidding of the regime. snowden performed a criminal act. it was all over the place. >> this is about a movie. they don't like a comedy.
so they have gutted an entire american corporation and the press is jumping in saying how can we help you, north korea? how can we help you destroy careers and destroy corporations? >> i guess it is more difficult to see what legitimate value there is in cellatious gossip. >> not over a governor. >> this is stolen material and as our lawyers are telling our reporters at the new york times, we are not to open these e-mails. we are not to actively look at them. we are saed to report on what has been out there. because this is stolen material and trafficking in it is, in itself, a criminal act. >> if you looked at these e-mails and somebody will and they found that sony pictures is engaged in illegal contact. >> with members of congress.
>> or there was a contract dispute in hollywood, would you print it? >> that's one issue. >> insulting a movie star, angelina jolie on the front page. >> cellatious gossip. >> are what these two people e-mail before barak obama fundraiser when they were being stupid? i think that's far di than a criminal act. >> what about diplomatic tables that say really stupid things? that gets in the paper. look -- >> again you are brahaming hollywood with public service. >> it's a philosophical debate. that's all it is. they are going to get printed. if they say anything interesting. >> why? >> it's great the "new york times" has lawyers that give that advice. there are hundreds of web sites, millions of people with twitter accounts and facebook pages.
>> it's not like the people sitting around this table don't have a lot on what americans see, is politico going to report it? is role call going to report it? is the "new york times" going to report it? >> is the new york daily going to report it? >> our lawyers raise great concerns. i think that, also, this is different numberally than what edward snowden did. we are not talking about constitutional issues here, we are not talking about a threat to the fab rec of our republic. we are talking about two studio executives sfieping at each other. that's what this is. >> well, also, add only top of that, howard, you are dealing with an organization that just threatened 9-11 style attacks. are those the type of people whose stolen toorl you want to traffic if as well? >> i think that changes. >> i understand as you feel as a
public official saying, come on, i put up with it, you put up with it, too. i think in this case, tow. >> how terrific would it be to be a media professor now? this is an interesting philosophical key bait you can have these questions, if a sleazy person hands you information about a senator doing nefarious dealings? these are all the decisions we have to make on a regular basis. >> i want to go with the there is a media professor that says if have you the north korean government illegally getting information and then following up by an arm of that government, threatening suicide bombing attacks on movie theaters showing a comedy, i wonder what media professor what respectable institution would say, yes, are you a an editor, can you publicize it. >> this election will be so much different tan 2012, now if you
are a candidate, you will get caught on someone videoing with the phone, you have a legitimate concern it's not that hard to hack into your e-mails in the last six years and have any idea that you will be able to keep information from the public, which you could in 2012. you certainly could if 2008. when you ran in 2004, i think what candidates will be exposed to, they are radically more intention and scarier than it has been. >> jeb bush just dumped 250,000 e-mails from hills governor's time into the public for them to paw through as part of this explorestory operation. i think that makes a lot of sense. you guys might as well do the opposite research. >> jim you might recall this, in 2012, sarah palen's e-mail account was hacked. i'm asking this, because i don't recall what was the standard with which media organizations apply? >> in bush's e-mails, they printed them, which i think is pretty disgusting. >> her husband's e-mail address, a lot of information about the
kids, it all got out there. i don't know which forms of the media. >> there is a political precedent here. >> it seems that some there needs to be some grownups running the norm times, running politico, role call. . the walk post. it's a shame you guys are doing that. i'm saying, there should be and michael steel, are you next, you are doing the right thing, i'm saying there main news organizations, they should not print these e-mails, they should not print things that are hacked illegally. we have a bad enough time getting good candidates to go out and run because of the bs written about them and their families, half of them lies on the internet right now. now you start going into private e-mail accounts, if the sony ceo since 28, you are going to drive away every single man and woman
who can make a difference in turning this country around. what ceo in america, what teacher in america? is going to want to run for office and make a difference in the white house or the local school board if they think e-mail they have written over the past decade when they were pissed off at somebody, for me, at 10:00 in the morning but think of the good people that this will drive from politics? if the media doesn't step up and say these are the standard we are living by. >> that's exactly the point right there. you laid it out the right way. the question i have for the journalists is what is the standard. we heard the "new york times" lawyer has put a little of a bar
there. how do you look at this? where do you drew the lean? is it cellatious personal stuff clearly attacks on the celebrity of someone vs. the substance of a corporate entry? where do you guys draw the lean? >> let's start with the "new york times." that's a great question, help me understand, the "new york times" doesn't look at the e-mails. they don't print it. if the new york post print it, you can print what's in the new york post? because if that's the indication, that at copout. >> no, there is a very strict editorial filter there, i'm not speaking on behalf of the newspaper. i do know my editors exercise sound enough judgment that it's just something that doesn't seem to rise to the level of news worthiness that doesn't, for example, point to alleged racism by executiveser for example. something of that -- >> we are probably not going to do there. >> obviously. >> some legal --
>> if the fork times saw, illegally obtained e-mails where a potential candidate for president was seek income racist terms, it would land in the "new york times" in some shape or form. >> that's right. >> that's one thing. >> that weighs on his or her performance. what if somebody, christina, sends a really heated angry e-mail at their brother or sister or golf partner? the sort of thing that would embarrass that person publicly, does not weigh on their performance. >> each of our organization has to make different judgment calls. for us, a better example might be a hill staffer trashing their boss or talking about sexism on capitol hill. we would have to really evaluate that, get our lawyers involved and have to make a decision. you make these sorts of ed coral judgment calls every single day.
this is a much different scale. we don't have the sony emales sent to us at role call, but i have to know if we did, we are going to be talking to our lawyers, figuring out the best strategy for whether you touch it or not touch it. >> i have a question for joe, do you think the behavior of the ceo of sony raises remarks about the president and a few other and some employees. >> the ceo doesn't make it racist. >> a guy made a racist staimd statement, you go, whatever, this isn't wrong. it's the rolling stones. >> it was a top producer, scott rudeen i think is his name. >> yes. >> i think a vp there at sony, ceo? >> no, she's not. >> i think we saw the video. anyway two ceo people at a major publicly held corporation. >> right. >> they are making remarks about their employees.
>> a co-chair. so two senior executives. >> right. >> who have a lot to do with how much money sony makes, they are making remarks about the president, they are. >> about him making movies with a black guy. >> making remarks about a hired help. >> what's your question? >> don't you think that has the impact on the bottom lean of a public corporation? don't you think that has reflection on how they can do their job? >> i think it does, i think there are people shape whack americans are saying, they are power. if people feel comfortable making racially insensitive remarks and childish pet lent remarks, then i think that reflects poorly on that country. i would want to know who was running if somebody in my krpgs were riding e-mails about the
president of the united states like that, that would be something i would want to know and ceos will want to know. we want to talk about jepp. in the end, though, let's look at this from 30,000 feet, how pathetic is it that north korea has been able to intimidate two of hollywood's biggest actors from going on tv shows to promote a comedy? how pathetic is it that north korea has been able go in and completely trash a corporation? one of the most powerful corporations and movies? i mean, it seems now they're closing up some of these theters, carmike not playing this? we are cowering in fear? >> that's bad. i'm sorry we have to say, we all joke about it. if we don't go shopping, terrorists have won. >> no, can you say here, that terrorists have won and they're threatening -11 style attacks
and i don't want to judge anybody but if i'm the actress in this thing, i think i go i think i grow high with fingers pointed toward forth korea. >> we all go. >> ooid i'm dead serious, i think we have to make a statement as a country, we can't cower. i actually love that idea, show this at the kennedy center. have them make more money than they could have ever make and not let north korea here, it's absurd. >> we are all. >> you are begging, you got the actress cowering, the premier cancelled. it's pretty big. >> it's possible they cancelled
the movie. it's almost a movie in and of itself. i think the idea we are held hostage, people are scared there will be a 9-11 style attack. they are getting a response from sony. i think each day the trickle is more and more people are can selling. whether it's the "tonight show" or the theater in new york or a cha chain. >> i can't believe our government, if i untie my shoe laces in antarctica, i can't believe they can't physical out who is doing this and bring them justice. it's some group of people in north korea do, this. it's hard to bring them to justice. >> is it some group of people in north korea? >> i think it's good edz, some is the government in north korea, if not, it's the government sponsored people in north korea. >> we have a lot to talk about.
we have ted cruz apologizeding, jeb bush running for office, not really announcing he is running. john huntsman will be joining us in our 8:00 hour, plus one of america's largest cities takes the first steps to make sure every cop is armed with a camera. oh god it's mom, the reaction from two brothers when their concerned mother calls into c-span to put her disputing sons into place.
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that pennsylvania man hunt and the suspected gunman found dead of an apparent self inflicted wound t. body of bradley stone, whom authorities believe killed his ex-wife. five of her family members, seriously injured another was found with visible cut wound. the knife was found nearby. sony had reportedly been in a bitter custody dispute with his former wife. his kids he had taken from his ex-wife's home are now in protective custody. >> this from the l.a. times the spending bill has a provision that keeps agents from shopping states that legalized medical marijuana. 32 states have legalized polt for medical conditions and president obama is expected to sign the spending bill into law later this week. we look at the los angeles times, eric garcetti says every police officer in his city will soon be equipped with a body
count. >> i love it. >> this is something you have been talking about a lot. >> that's fantastic. >> so the lapd will be moving forward to buy 7,000 cameras for law enforcement officials. garcetti went on to say quote the trust between a community and its police department can be eroded in a single moment. trust is built on transparency. >> so, howard, i have been talking about this for a very long time. >> yes. >> it's interesting. how does it cut for libertarians on the right and for aclu times on the left? because i always look at it, hey, this is positive to. this stops police abuse, this protects police. some are saying, wait, those are cameras all over the city, they can follow our every move, et cetera, sort of like a brig big brother state is watching you.
>> we put these in every car in vermont a long time ago. we found it helps a lot both the police being arrested. you can see the people arrested. okay. we are pleading. >> as far as the civil liberties aspects. >> a piece of this, unless for some reason these trapse not available. you can see the whole tape. you can't tell, this is between the officer and the person arrested. i think it helps both sides. it helps determine who is really making this stuff up.
>> do you think we saw five police officers and one witness with an iphone on eric garner do we need one big angle? >> think about it. >> a lot of people say the police knew that there was a videotape there. if you are a police, if you wear a camera and i wear a camera around, every time we're working, it's going to change the way we act. the way we approach people if those five cops knew they had cameras and they were going to be judged by how they treated eric garner, eric garner would be alive today. he would. especially the guy with the choke hold he would have known he wouldn't be able to lie his way out of it. >> a lot has to do with training. >> training is a commonality between ferguson and staten island, were the police were not as well trained as they should have been. that's a fact regardless of awe want to say about the going, i
think we all have our different opinions, you don't fire 12 shots at somebody. there is a way you do this. no matter how difficult the situation is. i don't see the downside as long as somebody other than police has full access. i talk how they are on the short stick. i want to make sure criminal defense attorneys get those tapes as quickly as police officers, they don't have to sit and ask for discovery and wait and wait and wait and get on a website. right. >> i don't know about a public website. >> or get it up on a website lawyers request have pass words too, the public defender can have access to. >> within three days or something like that. >> within i say website, there is a way the lawyers can make it
so. you pass a code. if you are representing such-and-such, you go to the centralized website. can you see the arrests. let's finish with the new jersey star ledger, chris christie is actually defending his love for the boys the dallas cowboys. it started under over the eagles in philly, the governor high 5ing jerry jones in the dallas sky box. that sparked a nasty reaction from eagles fans, ed rendell the former governor of pennsylvania recently said, part, in quote, how can a jersey guy be a cowboys' fan? it's pa thetic. they called christie a creep and made a derogatory comment about hit weight. the governor reacted to a backlash at a local radio station. i'm sure he did wit a light touch. >> i'm an enthusiastic dallas cowboys fan. i've never made a secret of it.
some people reacted badly to it. that's okay. i understand. they're passionate about the eagles, too. the people who listen to you know that i call them as i see it and i'm not going to be one of these pickss who changes their sports team loyaltys on just to score political points. >> i got a thing for him, actually, on that front of the, by the way, eagles fans, they booed santa claus. so they're going to be a little tough. >> if their e-mails in chris christie's inbox, that is going to have a difference. >> we'll call them on that. >> he's a public figure. >> professional sports is so interesting the way it interacts with politics, because it does matter who your allegiances are, you have your voters, your constituents are paying attention to that, in many cases far more than what you are doing in the halls of justice. >> chris christie has a lots bigger problems. >> but he'd certainly love to win texas. >> he would love to win texas.
there are a lot of billionaires that can write for a presidential campaign. i'm sure he has been a dallas cowboys fan for a long time. if you are a dallas cowboys fan, it certainly helps to be in that box filled with billionnaires, coming up, jeb bush may be running for president and casey hutton joins us with her reporting on jeb's potential gop opponents. >> that will be very interesting. stay with us. h
him. >> i haven't committed to doing it, but this is a time we should be celebrating the incredible opportunities in this country. yet, most people don't feel it. they think the government doesn't work for them and if i can get comfortable with being a candidate that gets people hope that we can fix some of these big problems that we have, so we can take advantage of our opportunities, that's what i'm pursueing. it's not an easy decision, though, it is a life changing one for a long while. >> howard dean, you know something about that. it's not an easy decision. not an easy task. >> jeb bush on the speaking circuit, i think he's a changed
guy, he is less likely to do it because i'm a right wenger, he is not. his immigration policy is in the bush mode, pretty decent i disagree with him on a lot of issues. he's a different guy tan when he was the governor of florida. i think he will have a tough time. >> i was going to say that, endorsement in iowa and new hampshire for jeb bush coming from howard dean. with us now, msnbc political correspondent casey hunt, national politics reporter for the "wall street journal," beth reinhart, boy, beth, this changes everything, jeb jumping into the rails. it freezes a lot of people out. >> it sure does. the biggest impact i think is on the donors who have gotten out a very strongal from the governor that he is is not seriously thinking about it. he can bow out at this point. for allies of mitt romney
telling donors to sit tight, for governor chris christie of new jersey who has been obviously much more overt in his overtures, these donors are now in the position of really making tough decisions. >> some people ask, why do zru to do it in 20 puerto rican? well, right now, you have donors in new york, i tell you, especially, that have beeniching. it's driving them crazy, are we on team jeb or team mitt? are we going to write a check for chris christie? this clears things up for some of them. >> it absolutely does, jeb bush is one of the few that would benefit from an early announcement like this i think everybody else thought they could push it off and wait. there were so many people waiting around for a starting signal for jeb bush. the sort of feeling is he needed to go early rather than later. i have seen him a couple times on the trail. i covered him in 2014, i talked to him yesterday, two days ago
if south carolina. >> is he good on the tray, on the campaign? >> some people say he may be rusty. that's mimi perception. i felt he knew what he was trying to accomplish. what he was doing. he went, executed. did nothing more or less than he planned to. that's a skill that's really important in this modern campaign environment. >> it's also clarifying the reaction from others. it gives you a good sense of who is nervous. romney wanted to be crowned the establishment king. so they're whining about the way he went about doing it. you see rand paul instantly buying ads on google for every time you search for bush, up comes rand paul. he is definitely in. he he will announce next year. he will be one of the biggest threats. ted cruz is trying to clean up his mess from last weekend. >> how about ted cruz apologizing, going in front of the senators, apologizing. >> apologizing-ish in that he apologized for being a nuisance
to their weekend. i don't think he apoll jieszed for the tactics to force debate about what he wanted to have. he did a piece for politico why he did what he did. >> it's embarrassing appointees were able to get if because of what he did. >> he did. one thing i will say on ted cruz and jeb bush, this sets up a potential foil for ted cruz and i'm hearing that this may move up cruz's time line. it gives him, if bush is entering this race as somebody who perceived the candidate on immigration, that gives somebody for ted cruz to go after. >> do you think this makes rick perry toast? >> i don't know if it makes him toast. >> texas toast? >> i think it makes the task more difficult.
i think everybody around perry knows they will be competing directly for a lot of texas money is there what do we expect next? jeb, has said going to form an exploratory committee. he hasn't, their people contacted us said, no, he didn't announce a form aation of a pact. he announced he was considering forming a pact. what's next? >> i think he said he would consider a pact, that would allow him to build an apparatus, the other potential candidates do for months now hire consult ants, pollsters, be much more overt in building e-mail lists and donor lists. we will see that ramping up in january. until now, it's been quiet whispers, now it will become much more out in the open like the other guys. >> there is a new nbc news-"wall street journal" poll.
now that jeb bush is clearly moving in that direction, of leading the party is how they will build on that number to grow it over the next six-to-seven months to begin to lock those voters in. >> that will be important for the base and the candidates making the case to the american people t. key thing for me, joe, i'd be curious to get your thoughts on this they can no not make this about hillary. we spent a lot of opportunity and energy about beating under the man than talking succinctly about the apologies and what we will do. we follow the trap for let's follow hillary and make her the boggy woman. those numbers will not change too much. >> i agree completely. running against braum barak obama, romney in 2010 didn't work in 2012. you can't beat something with nothing and this republican party is going to have to find a
new direction for the connection with middle class voters. one they haven't had gosh in 15, 20 years on the presidential level. it's going to be pretty rough. >> what is need about that point is, that's where jeb bush and particularly rand paul where their intersection is going to be, it will be fascinating to watch. rand paul made much more of an urban appeal. he's talked a great deal with african-americans and minorities bringing that conversation to the floor. jeb bush will do the same with his hispanic community. so it will be interesting to see how that shapes the ultimate party nationally going into 2016. >> and the good news also is for republicans they have as to stand against something the food news is they appear to be running against a democrat that doesn't want to say anything, that wants to hide as much as
possible and has run a pretty empty campaign thus far. >> do i get to defend her? >> does she have to at this point? i wouldn't want you to embarrass yourself. she's been in public life since 19 fine 78. >> right. >> we can't say what she would do if she were president of the united states. i think that speaks volumes. anyway, thank you so much for being with us. beth. we appreciate it. when we come back, fall out from the lack related to sonny's new film with the the interview. we have the reporter from the washington post next on this extraordinary story that should be made into a movie, itself. ♪
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. >> andrea, what a mess this is, we hear the e-mails have been hacked from 28 to 2012 or 2014. so how far does this go and is washington post, we have been talking about this, the washington post going to print all those e-mails? >> you know a lady never tells. obviously, this is discuss for sony. we are talking about a bunch of proprietary information useful to competitors and obviously has been very embarrassing. >> how other corporations are scrambling to make sure pass words and social security numbers are protected? does this clang the game for other corporations? >> it's hard to say, this is not the first thing that has happened. i'm sure the sony one is unique. we have seeing a lot of this information coming out. the company is across the spectrum from mom and pop shops
to gigantic retailers like target have had major cyber security fails if you will over the past year. no one expectles it to stop. we expect to be better. >> we have heard about the complicated flexitys of printing this. putting this out there. once you do you said the genie is out of the bought him you can't go back. but this is stolen proprietary information. when is too much too much? when do people say this hack has to stop. we are not interested in putting this out there. there is no value-added content to knowing that you guys talked poorly behind closed doors. if anybody got a catch of my e-mail
e-mails. >> a text message i sent minutes ago. >> you don't have to go back years. . but what do you think about this? we were talking about this, howard, of course, gleeful and embar rationed about the corporations >> hey,i had to live like that for years. >> it's disturbing to me. i think newspapers should not print stolen material from the north korean government meant to terrorize the organization. >> are they the ones behind the attack, that have done this? are we playing right into their game of exactly what they wanted to do by putting this out there and being, oh, well, it's out there. we wash our hand of it. >> that responsibility. >> aaron sorkin said there wasn't much of a difference. i don't think there is much of a
difference either, if the media acts responsibly and doesn't print the hacked photos, why should they print the hacked e-mails? >> certainly, it's a great question, especially when it comes to proprietary information about the content of certain deals the content of character, how people feel about certain potential colleagues that they might want to work with in the future. wow, they're human beings, boy, they talk nasty you know what to each other. but other than that, it's just gossip. >> it is. all right. andrea, thank you so much. we will be following this story, obviously, for a very long time. coming up, it's always embarrassing when you get called out by your mother. >> oh, yeah. >> it's happened to me publicly before. imagine having it happen on live television. that's happened to me before. two political pundits first learn the hard way. we will show you next. in the wor
like ours. i don't know many families that are fighting at thanksgiving. i was very glad that there thanksgiving was the year you two were supposed to go to your inlaws. i am hoping you will have this out of your system when you come here for christmas. >> this was not planned. since you did call in, mrs. woodhouse, what is it like to raise these two boys? >> it hasn't been easy. >> i hope they get there out of their system today on your progr program. >> oh my gosh. i guess between the entire panel, you are not taking call-ins today? >> no. >> my mother could the first day
i was in d.c., i got elected. i was 30. everybody was knocking me, i was too young. the news journal had written a nascy article about me my chief of staff says your mother is talking to luke mccoy. i call home, mom! >> leave my son alone? 12k34r yeah. ma, ma, the knock against me is that i'm too young. this doesn't help. >> you had a little joey. >> your mom called to protect you. oh my gosh. that, that mother was the mother of blad dallas embarrassing her two sons, the mockumentary woodhouse divided. on set, jerpy peters, jim vander
height with us and with us former white house press secretary for president obama, robert gibbs, also msnbc contributor and editor of "the fix" of the washington post. let me first ask you, robert gibbs. >> sure. >> mica and i went to the white house last night and, you know, somebody asked how long will you go to the white house christmas parties? i said until you run out of kid. last night, joey was there, i had jack. all this other stuff how does the president, how does the president and the first lady, i'm serious, stands there and smile ten nights in a row. >> right. >> five hours a night. >> usually two parties a night. >> two parties a night. so gracious, barak obama and michelle obama both
extraordinarily gracious to everybody that goes there, i don't know how they would do it. >> it is tough. it's not easy, i remember for the media party, we would, a lot of times, you know, folks want pictures, we will say, we cone have two party. we'll have one becker party. we'll have pictures. >> by the way, i have spoken in shorthand the president and first lady stand and they smile in front of in a beautiful background, one person after another have pictures with the family. they're smiling, gracious, about five hours a night, ten nights in a row. i'm sorry. >> it is an arduous thing. no doubt about it. it is one of those things they both understand that in 20 years those pictures of the christmas will be in people's houses, they
love those pictures. they hold on to those pictures. they tell stories about when they were there to take that picture. i think they understand how much it means to someone. >> it's interesting. i have been to one of two of these. the first time you do it. oh, it's feet. then again the president and the first lady extraordinarily gracious but it is, it was amazing. i went into the next room and sat there and waited for mica and her daughter and gram go in the line, people like off a roller coaster, it does, it means so much to so many people. >> so there is a huge line, right, everywhere? >> mass iive. >> i brought my wife one year, that i have your car, how they say it. i assume, of course, he knows
me. you get two seconds, you walk up, picture is taken. they send, e-mail you the picture two, three days later. my wife's eyes are totally closed. i'm like, we can photo shop. but that was our one big chance. >> you will get another chance. >> i don't know? >> i said, we'll go back, i'm sure he's not busy, pop back in. i hate to interrupt you. you are in a national security meeting. >> i walked there and my son, joey, he walked in front of me. he mumbled something to the president. i walked behind him and said he just apologized for me, didn't he? the president goes, yep, first thing he did, i'm sorry about my dad. >> it's always good to have the good cop in front of the line. >> joey played good cop.
the president understand it. he said, our children apologize for us the rest of our lives, and that do. what do you think about jeb bush jumping in. >> i think the announcement is pretty significant. i think in some ways he sped up the process to slow it down. i think we understood a lot of people, including jepp, were thinking about itch maybe not knowing exactly how serious he was about thinking about it. now he said he's very serious about it and like i said, i think he sort of paused in saying, hey, i am doing the due diligence. this is a big deal. it's important to me. hold on until you here back from me. >> this mitt romney deal, mitt romney is ahead in all the polls he said, if jepp doesn't run, we're going to run. all of that activity behind the
scenes, this freezes that? >> it's interesting in the new "wall street journal"-msnbc poll we will talk about today, mitt romney had the second highest percentage of people that said they could not support him. so maybe this jeb bush announcement nips it in the bud, a fantasy nurtured by reporters who used to cover mitt romney in 2012. >> you say it's fantasy. you take jeb bush's name out of that, mitt romney wins the nomination. i'm sorry, it will not be rand paul. it will not be chris christie. it will not be mike huckabow. >> a year, two years from the election, maybe. i don't think we can take that poll too serious >> i know the republican party. when everybody talks about the flavor of the month. i wrote a column "crazy never wins" back in 2012. i said, forget everything you are hearing, mitt comeny will never win.
if jeb doesn't run, there are a lot of people that are getting attention that jim, they're not going to win. democrats may once in a while, republican versus not done it since, oh, lord gold is water in '74. >> goldwater was sort of the establishment because of what happened at the '60s convention. there was a buildup for him there. even that, you get out of 1960 after nixon's loss and people knew goodwater, people come out of left field in the republican party. >> one of the reasons jeb did it at this point is to get it out of the conservative system. see if he can weather it.
. >> except that group is shopped. >> it is true, the pattern is how true since goldwater t. question is, can he really, jeb bush, can le overcome his position on immigration, his position on at least flirting with the idea of potential pecks, those are three issues, look at what walker said yesterday, look at what cruz said yesterday, what rand paul said, they all went after him on common core. >> i will say this about jeb, $lot of candidates scared to jump into that fight. he's not. i fol wloeed him cloeszly in florida. he caught so much hell for taking on eacher's unions and vouchers. he'd go around like this v is
for voucher, not for victory, i want to say this, the nastier you get mad at jeb bush, you will piss him off. he's his mother's son. he's kind of cranky. he's a little rough around the edges personally and one on one contact, he's not a back slaper. >> i think jim is right t. biggest piece of this as you talk about is donors. >> right. >> the only people other than four or five of us paying a i tension to this kind of stuff are big donors? >>. >> by the way, that's a big point. the people bo will decide, they're going to be the front runners, have been chomping at the bits for three months. >> that romney boom is driven by
wall street donors who thought they'd have christie, christie looks flawed. they're looking for someone, big people. look at the stories yesterday about jeb. it's big, big donors we have known forever. the other thing i think he gets in now, i think he wants to see how nasty is it going to get. he is not a dumb man, right. he knows common course is a problem. i think he knows at some level immigration is prime. he wants to physical out, what is the resistance and do i want to go through with it? >> let me turn jim's good point around, can he slide a different position nationally on education? i would remind folks the first big policy speech governor bush gave to l.a. about expanding the role in education.
now that gives you a sense of how the republican party in a short time has changed. i think you got to do something different. because if the demographics continue it become, exceedingly hard with hispanic voters. >> jeb said a knock to mitt romney, can somebody be different? jeb said, nobody's tried. jeb will try. jeb and george w. and karl rove and everybody in 1998, 1999, they were all warning republicans, you guys get right with hispanics or we're going to get wiped out the next 50 years. they were way ahead of the game. jeb will not cower in the corner. they are appealing to a strand of small gop caucus voters. >> i think to put that around again, as we all talk about jeb bush holding these moderate views, we also need to remember
that he's still extremely conservative. >> jeb is an extremely conservative governor. he intervened in the terry schiavo case. he also was a major proponent of three strikes laws. so i do wonder how much that appeal restats with modern voters, ultimately if he decides to run. >> jeb is a pod rat republican like i'm a pod rat republican, which is to say we're both slash leberitarian voters and considered crazy as hell in the 1990s and somehow after 2010 came to be seen as moderate because we don't set houses on fire and scare little kids and pets. >> to your point? >> i'm serious, we can converse and talk to people on the other side and the need for compromised, somehow, no, jeb is not a mod root. jeb is a conservative.
any conservative out there whoties he is too moderate to get elected. you are living on a different world in a different planet. whoever your nominee is will lose. like barry goldwater lost in 1974. >> there is a great piece by a guy who covered a couple weeks ago, who covered jeb when gives governor, jeb bush was a leading edge him jeb runs and loses amazingly to lawton childs. >> he had to work hard to lose that race. >> you look at the fact that jeb worked hard to lose in '94. if he hadn't lost that race, he would have been president in 2000. also, he had two easy runs added in '98 and 2002. he has not run against a relief
opponen opponent. >> when he makes that first run, he is seen as the flagship conservative. he does speak to your point, with i is look, whether you think it's a good thing or a bad thing, the republican party has moved significantly to the ideological right. jeb bush has not really ultimately changed his position. >> no, he hasn't. >> the party, the question is have they moved too far so a guy like him can win? >> guy in politico wrote in south carolina, it's a much different state if 2016 than it was in 2000. let go to pakistan right now. pakistan is in a three-day mourning period. bill neely joins us now from pakistan. bill, we've just, it is hard for us to fathom the pain and anguish that is going through
that community, what is the pack stamp government promising odo in retribution even the after gains are doing. >> reporter: the pakistani government have vowed revenge. in fact, they have begun a new series of airstrikes against taliban positions. i'm at the school behind those gates over there i have been inside, shown around by the pakistani army, by the troops and commandos who ended this edge'. it is a scene of mass murder the blood the bullets, the books still lying where so many children died. you know, guys this city, i have been here many, many times, is used to violence, a lot of violence, massacres, even, but
nothing quite like this. >> this was a blood bath, a mass ter of the innocence, their shoes and glasses scattered. they came to this hole to learn first-aid, how to save lives. they lost theirs when seven gunmen burst in and began shooting. dozens of the children were murdered in this hole and it's no exaggeration to say that every inch of this is covered in blood. it's a scene of utter horror. the gunmen moved to classrooms, hunting down children without mercy until army commandos began to fight back. all seven taliban gunmen wearing suicide vests were killed. but they've murdered more than 140 by then. >> we are all angered. i think there is nothing that can happen worse than this. >> reporter: in the hospital, dazed survivors, more than 100 were injured. medical staff overwhelmed.
after the massacre, the mourning. this attack has stunned pakistan. the army and government promise revenge, but for now the slaughter of so many children, simply left this country numb. so some embarrassment really for the pakistani army in one way. this is an army school and those seven taliban gunmen got in without much of a challenge. it was about 15 minutes before the army commandos could even begin firing back. as i said, the pakistani military has begun fresh airstrikes against the taliban. again, questions of tear effectiveness both here and, of course, where they really need to challenge the taliban is in eastern afghanistan where they have a relatively safe hi note. three days of national mourning have been declared across this country. it's the worst national terrorist attack they have had.
really, it whether take a sense for the disbelief here to faith. back to you, guys. >> bill neely, thank you so much. please be safe. pakistan, it was obviously, it's been a problem for this country for very long time. bill clinton saw pakistan get nuke weapons, george w. bush tried to pay off mush riff. they played both sides they had to deal with the pakistani government. we can't tell them to go to hell. they have nuclear weapons, it is a vexing, vexing problem it may be one of the most dangerous countries on earth. >> look, i think these are the kind of things where you don't
need someone from another country to describe how important this is this is being felt in a way that very few attacks in a place where you are used to violence can jar you. i think there is undoubtedly this is exactly the time of thing that brings that violence and that jarring sense directly, to read the quotes from the mothers. >> it's terrible. >> i read one that said, this morning, my boy was in a school uniform, now he's in a casket. unspeakable. >> oh, it is unspeakable. jim, thank you so much for being with us. we greatly appreciate it. coming up on ""morning joe,"" he wondered if his opponents were the best republicans. what does he think about this potential field?
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. >> the report what the guardian refers to as excessive feminism and secularism against american nuns. i don't know, i never saw that at my catholic high school the results call for a more incisive fe pail presence. the report did warn u.s. nuns against living less traditional lifestyles they won't admit it
you know the nuns run the catholic church? >> the pope has not spoken about divorced catholic the poor, the lbgt, we haven't heard about vaulting women an certainly nuns within the catholic church. 1st to 8th grade for me, they cracked the whip hard. >> sister theresa 4th grade, we were scared of her. i'm scared now because she is probably still living. >> forget 4th grade, sister margaret like through high school, i'm still hello, sister barbara, everything is well. >> father, son, holy spirit. an american doctor, a chair of the ebola virus is going to go
back. rick sacra will be returning next month for a month-long trip. while not sure how he contracted the virus. he says he feels great ehab there since his release, he believes passion natalie to go back. >> has can the time" revealed their person of the year? >> yes, ebola. boo boom. >> i never take a day off, how did they miss that? i know they came on to our show to do that. >> it must have been a couple years ago. i never missed a show. all of july. in a couple years,s was i there? i wasn't paying attention. i was tired. >> people don't realize we are asleep the whole time, right? did i interview him?
because there is going to go viral, but, anyway, todd, thank you for coming to our show i will say, i didn't think he was on. i knew the doctors, they should have been. they should have been guys like this, i want to though what the coroners they got shoved in a tent and had to leave maine. i wonder where she is. wherever she, i feel like we ought to do a fundraising drive, like, you know -- >> in northern maine. >> i thought she left the state. >> i don't think she ever -- i think she was allowed to stay. she was feuding with chris christie remotely. >> and passing out halloween candy with her bare hands. >> think about these people that go over there when their lives are at rick, think about this doctor going back there when he's already gone through it.
i mean, they are remarkable. remarkable people to do that. >> i think, these people are in less risks, our reporters, we have people going over there regularly, at times, i'm, sure, too. even that, you are putting yourself at, i know it's lard to transmit and all, you are putting yourself in harm's way tore a political reporter. >> no. >> who very rarely puts himself in harm's way. it's remarkably courage outlook it really is. >> by the way, i know the post over there, i think the "time's" are sifting through the north korean hacked e-mails right now. >> we go to the washington post right now a. labor disput at u.s. ports along the west coast has held up shipments in japan. most have started rationing orders of french fries. it kicks into high gear. >> get this. you can't super size in japan
anymore. the fries. they will be limited to the small packs. however mcdonald's will not limit the small fries. >> today's fries with my headlines. so before we go to break, i wanted to ask you, it was never a good time, what do you think of the playoff systems? the first year, how has it worked out? >> unless are you in the big 12, great. i think. >> did they pick the right four? >> probably. i think the in the also didn't want to have to pick between baylor and tcu and ohio state play played out of their minds in a championship game. >> we try to ignore that. >> it's remarkable. >> it will be fascinating to watch. i still think in a few years, we
will end up having to do it with eight teams. >> do you think we feed eight teams? >> i don't think we need it. i think the biggest problem we have, again, of all the problems we are talking about, this is small, there are five power conferences, so every year, one conference is guaranteed at least one conference is guaranteed to be left out. if the sec gets two teams in, three or two conferences get left out. so it, i think if i were in charge of that, i would go to eight, reduce the number of regular games by at least one and make sure if you are a power five conference, you can't play the lower decision anymore. >> i was going to say, go to the dance, they have to play big teams. non-conference has to get tougher. >> they have to appeal to the ncaa type permit having a championship game. >> even though they don't have 12 right there. coming up chuck todd will be
joining us, what americans think about the cia's use of enhanced interrogation techniques. the results will surprise you. be a big shock. plus, the national review got its hand on ted cruz's strategy to win the white house. if he decides to run. the three specific groups of voters he says he needs to target. stay with us. the holiday season is here, which means it's time for the volkswagen sign-then-drive event. for practically just your signature, you could drive home for the holidays in a german-engineered volkswagen. like the sporty, advanced new jetta... and the 2015 motor trend car of the year all-new golf. if you're wishing for a new volkswagen this season... just about all you need is a finely tuned... pen. get zero due at signing, zero down, zero deposit, and zero first month's payment on select new volkswagen models. just take a closer look. it works how you want to work.
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. >> i know we're on air, but we're talking about football. moderator of "meet the press," chuck todd, what are the numbers that stood out from the msnbc, "wall street journal" poll, had to deal with headline torture, 51% of americans believe those enhancement tactics were accept under the circumstances. 45% say they should be used again in the future if necessary. this follows up on the conversation i was having about our drone policy. i think it's guessive. it causes me great concerns americans want us to do what it takes. >> there are blinders on the
idea that somehow it will impact our relationship, our standing around the world. the time that americans will be outlajed by these tactics is when they don't work and something lapse in america. >> right. they're looking at this going, we haven't been attacked on u.s. soil since 9/11, they must have done something. >> there are a lot of americans that believes what vice president cheney believes, which is, hay, these guys aren't playing by any set of rules america is playing by a set of rules. those guys behead people. they don't play by the rules. >> they offended a lot of people. jon stewart had fun saying, toreture? i'll tell you when torture is you fly a plane into a building killing 3,000 americans. i do think that resonates with america, if there weren't isis, if there were a stable syria and
iraq, if, if, if, if things hasn't fallen off a cliff in the past two years these numbers would be a lot lower? people remember guys' heads getting cut off. i think we're back in that war footing. >> i think that's crept into a lot of the numbers, i think the way it's asked assumes the effectiveness on torture. i think it's a debate we will have for as long as we talk about torture. as to the degree about it brought back something that was effective. i was struck, watching as i think a lot of people did, chuck's very, very inforgetive interview with dig cheney.
i bet cheney probably if you watched that interview probably 35, 36% support him. i think even most americans understand that we went if they fine it acceptable went too far. i was struck when you asked kane about the detainee that was chained to the wall, who froze to death. >> right. >> who was not the person we thought he was. >> right. >> he never admitted there was a mistake. he never admitted or apologized for any facet of it. >> you picked i think the most extreme stance of the entire "meet the press" interview, where he saw that. i have been very clear to say all along some of these enhanced interrogation techniques, not is most extreme ones, i couldn't believe others in the report. but sleep deprivation, these other things worked. dig cheney was unapologetic. i dead find it striking that when you asked about the guy
about the identity, dig kane said we'd rather that happen a couple times than less the bad guys out. >> no. >> i think even that what was sort of the moment where you sit there and gasp and go, oh, my god. >> i think that caught a lot of people by surprise he didn't, basically, that's collateral damage was his argument. i think that was his motivation in speaking out. he thinks people aren't defending the program. he's willing to do it and take the error. >> by the way, he probably knows americans are where americans are on this msnbc. by the way, i got to say on robert talking about the effectiveness, i think most americans are like me, they don't think all of this happened by mistake. they think the program was effective and khalid sheikh mohammed spilled his guts after being waterboarded. for most americans, 2003, that
was okay. >> i think one of the o'think one of the things we need to consider is people don't appreciate, the question didn't say, do you approve of rectal feeding or chained up for several days with hands over their head. >> this thing goes to what i have been saying for some time, americans don't want to hear about the five-year-old girl killed in the drone attack. they don't want to hear about the grandmother blown to bits, the son the american, blown up while eating food at a restaurant. they want to know they're being kept safe. they don't want the details. americans don't want to know about. >> by the way, they still approve. >> you know what, they don't
want -- they are willfully ignorant. >> of how the americans will react when we saw photos of abu ghraib. >> that's a good point. >> had they ever surfaced, been public? had there been photographs? i think the american public would have a different reaction. >> they aren't destroyed because somebody needed another vcr tape. >> we need this week's 24, can somebody get a videotape? we didn't do this in places that are hard to find or pronounced on a map. because we thought, it's more 15t to do it over there than say down the street. >> there is a reason, luckily, is a different standard. >> coming up the stockmarket is soaring and unemployment is
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visit audioffers.com today. . >> i started out at $2.50 an hour. i thought i was the king. the north aviation, that was a big deal in town with apollo being built and so on. that was people in downey were happy, you know, during those times. they're happy now. i mean, a lot of employment going on. today's world, i don't think there is any jobs like back then. today's world, you have to be educated, college educated or trades or something like that. but to just go out and get a job, a nice paying job, i think those days are over with.
i really do. >> that was a snapshot of downey, california a. town that once posted a space shuttle factory in a ro bust middle class. today residents are waiting for the next financial rocket. with us now, economic correspondent for the washington post jim tangersly is out with a six-part series on the evolution and hardships of the middle class. he says a six-part series, why do a five-part series when you can do a six-part series. listen, there is a lot to talk about when it comes to this issue. average wages down since 1973, a manufacturing has left. coming back, the amount paid is so much less. what is going on in the economy? what have you found as you have been digging into this lost middle class story? >> the first thing, joe, it's a structural change, this is not something from the recession. this is the last three decades, after world war ii, we had this
economy, growth boom, that lifted everybody. in the last 25 years, the economy has grown 81% the median income has not grown at all. so the average american is not feeling anything. >> what are the main drivers of that? >> well, it's complicated. the bake thing is that at every level of the economy, we've had break downs. so in the middle. we have outsourced and automated millions or jobs, at the bottom, we had people try to get the education that they need to get better jobs. they're having a really hard time. if you are poor, it's hard to get the college and community college schooling you need to get out of poverty. at the top, this is our story today, way too many of the smartest people if america have gone into value creating business, job creating sectors to wall street. which is it's too big for the output that it has, so it's all adds up to an economy where talent isn't finding its best use and people are stuck doing less than they could be. we all suffer for.
look, jim, i mean, this is the ting that i think that people don't understand what's the guting of middle america, the fact that these small cities, big towns, everybody wants to rail on outsourceing. the fact of the matter is i toured factorys that are factories that run them. it's all robotics, all automation. the problem, we all know the problem, but there doesn't seem to be, people don't like the solution, because the solution is long term. it's just education. isn't it? >> well, education is a big part of it. we have to grap him with the fact that our most educated people in the economy are doing things now that are not conducive to growth in the middle class. >> the aspect of things, we have like this, it's, you know, we always thank you ability, okay, wall street is highly eeducated, all this stuff. i'm talking about the technic at
education. we need to invest in people and tear skills and themselves and their skills. we need the figure out ways to create the jobs and break down the barriers to get those people with skills into actual work thatskills. because right now, you've got too many people would used to make $20 an hour, doing something very skilled, very artis artisan, and they're stuck making $10 an hour, sweeping floors somewhere. that's not the best use of their talents. that's the problem. >> the best and the brightest, who should be the engineers, who should be the entrepreneurs -- >> right. >> they're going to wall street on the big money chase and they're just basically shuffling paper around. >> they're going to wall street. they're going to k street. they're building up big advantagings. and entrepreneurship is down. it's getting harder to make your own business and build your own middle class life. >> why is that? >> it's a 30-year trend. economists don't exactly know ways going on. it's coincided with this rise of
lobbying power and marketing power for really big companies. >> so there's this sclerosis, robert gibbs, where the rich keep getting richer. the corporations keep getting bigger. and they crowd out middle class mom and pop shops. >> i was just going to say, i felt this when we used to see how people viewed the economy when i was in the white house. the stock market would be great. and people would say, you know, supporters, why aren't you guys out there touting wall street more? it's not where people are connected. i hope a lot of policymaker, read this. if you could talk directly to them, what would you say would be the most effective thing we could do to understanding this and planning for it in the future? >> stop arguing about marginal tax rates and things on the margins of partisan fights going on right now. just think about talent. think about, how can we unleash the great talent that america has already? how can we help more people get
through school from the bottom? how can we invest in the people in the middle so they aren't stuck doing those lower value jobs. to get people more entrepreneurial, more value creating, doing those job creator things we all have grown to expect from the best and brightest? but i think that's the way we have to change the mind-set. >> and thank you for saying that. tax policy. we have -- for the past 40 years, and i wallas a part of in the '90s. we believed every economic issue, every economic woe, could be handled by a debate on taxes. whether you raise them. whether you lower them. that is not -- >> what job has been created by a marriaginal tax rate, lower o increase -- >> i'm not saying taxes aren't important, but that is the only major debate. that's the debate. not about getting the best and
brightest going in the direction that's going to create the most american jobs and read build america's middle class. >> the irony is we should be having a debate about common core and about education. that part of a technical education, improving that aspect, will have middle class folks have better education. >> "the washington post's" jim tankerly, thank you so much. still ahead two highly acclaimed actors and a one of a kind correspondent. our own lewis bergdorff. he sits down with them straight ahead. n. are all the green lights you? no. it's called grid iq. the 4:51 is leaving at 4:51. ♪ they cut the power. it'll fix itself. power's back on.
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i just got a clarifying e-mail from craig shirley who says the eagle fans not only booed santa claus but they also threw snowballs at him. thank you for filling us in. breaking news overnight concerning the sony data breach which has gone from a hacking story to a terror story. the disturbing reason why the new york premiere of "the interview" was canceled and why sony's letting theaters back out of showing the film and a lot are backing out of it and why the main stars are now afraid to go on tv to even promote it. howard dean and i are going to ask if this is really the way americans should respond to illegal acts from a rogue thug state. stay with us.
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the question jeb bush is asking himself while actively exploring a run for president. number one, am i sure i won't embarrass the family. number nine, can i find a running mate as likable as dick cheney? number eight, if i live who will rig the election in florida? number seven, do i have what it takes to be america's final president? number six, have i ever e-mailed
anyone at sony? number five, did mitt romney prove americans don't like made-up first names? number four, is america ready for its 44th white guy president? number three, would i have to leave miami? number two, are there any countries left to invade? and the number one question jeb bush is asking himself, is it a big deal that i was born in kenya? >> oh, my goodness. so it begins. wednesday december 17th. with us on set, "new york times" reporter jeremy peters. former governor of vermont and former chairman of the democratic national committee howard dean. president and ceo of politico and capital new york jim vandehey. and of the democratic national
committee, michael steele. michael, the jeb announcement yesterday, jeb announcement/nonannouncement. that brings form very quickly to the republican party. >> it does, very, very quickly. you've begun to see some of the jockeying between the alsos who want to get in there like the ted cruzes and rand pauls. then started the carve-out space, they want to keep that space. but jeb changes the dynamics, there's no doubt about it. the money will flow very differently. the organization will begin to flow differently. it will be interesting to see how much of his brother and even his father's team he brings to the table. joe, had a big -- he had a big organization in florida. how he utilizes that to launch this will be interesting to see. >> it will be interesting. we'll be talking about that. first, breaking news overnight related to the massive sony data breach which has now gone from a hacking story to a terror story. a spokesperson for the landmark
sunshine cinema confirms that sony has canceled thursday's new york premiere of the movie "the interview." this comes just hours after stars james franco and seth rogen pulled out of all publicity appearances including "late night with seth meyers" on nbc. the group claiming to be behind the sony hack evoked 9/11 while threatening to attack any theaters showing the movie. u.s. officials say there's no evidence of any terror plot. but sony is now allowing theaters not to show the film. so far, at least one movie chain is taking sony up on its offer. carmike cinemas. two former employees have filed a class action lawsuit against sony, claiming the company did not do enough to protect their personal information. appears to be the entire e-mail inbox of sony pictures chairman
and ceo michael linton from 2008 to 2014. screenwriter aaron sorkin is urging the media to resist reporting on the content of the stolen e-mails. >> is there anything in these e-mails at all that's in the public interest that points to wrongdoing at the company? that helps anyone in anyway? there isn't. there's just gossip there. just a few weeks ago, that cloud was hacked into, and naked photographs of women who we know, famous women, were made available to the press. and i thought we all did a really good job of preemptively telling the press that if you publish these things, you're being sleazy. this is the exact same situation. only worse by magnitudes. >> this is the exact same situation. except it is worse by magnitude.
>> i don't think it's the exact same situation. >> think it's worse. >> i think there may be some newsworthy stuff in there. coming from the profession i've come from and these guys have been my torturers from time to time, i'm used to having everything i do be public record. except for the personnel records. >> you think people's e-mails that they thought were going to be kept -- kept private should be hacked by the north korean government? >> no, of course not. >> and then spread out all over the front panges? >> i don't think they should be hacked by the government. >> should we show what the government is doing? >> that's up to the media. >> that's skaeshcary as hell, t idea we think it's fine for us to report on every single e-mail i wrote or you wrote -- >> wait a minute, if i was running for president and you had my e-mails -- >> you did -- >> public official, now private citizens are subject to that? i think the point is moot.
somebody's going to print all of those e-mails. it's scary as hell that's going to happen -- >> is it a media story or is it a crime story? right. you know, it's not necessarily fair for everybody to put it on us, do you publish them or not publish them. this is a criminal act. somebody has hacked their e-mails. if somebody dumped an e-mail archive of any interesting public figure or somebody in the spotlight, i'm certainly going to look at that and make that decision as an editorial person, do you publish it. >> a crime -- >> but let me ask though, is it a crime, a criminal act, that's the reason you've gotten this information? is it a criminal act made by north korea? the worst nation on this planet. should you really do the bidding of that regime? >> that's not the bidding of the regime. ed snowden per formed a criminal act and that stuff was all over the place. >> this is about a movie. they don't like a comedy so they've gutted an entire
american corporation and the president is jumping in, saying, how can we help you, north korea? how can we help you destroy careers? how can we help you destroy corporations? >> i guess it is more difficult to see what legitimate value there is. >> over a movie. not over what a governor did or what a congressman did, while he was congressman. >> this is stolen material. as our lawyers are telling our reporters at "the new york times," we are not to open these e-mails, we are not to actively look at them. we are only allowed to report on what has been out there. because this is stolen material. and trafficking in it is, in itself, likely a criminal act. >> if you looked at these e-mails, if somebody looked at these e-mails and they found that sony pictures engaged in illegal contact and that was not a -- >> with members of congress or -- >> -- members of -- or, you know, there was a contract dispute or something like that was being hushed up in hollywood, would you print it?
look, i -- >> that's one issue -- >> yeah, that's right. >> insulting a movie star, you know, angelina jolie on the front page -- >> salacious gossip -- >> what these two people e-mailed before a barack obama fund-raiser when they were being stupid. i think that's far different than a criminal act being committed. >> wait a minute, what about diplomatic cables that stay really stupid things? that gets in the paper -- >> again, this is what the media does, joe, they print gossip. >> you're conflating hollywood with public servants -- >> philosophical debate, but that's all it is, like you said, they're going to get printed, and if they say -- >> why? >> because now it's -- >> -- it's gossip -- >> -- because it's great "the new york times" has lawyers that give that advice. there's hundreds of websites, millions of people with twit iraccounts and facebook pages, somebody's going to post this information -- >> it's not like the people sitting around this table don't
have a say on what a lot of americans say. is politico going to report it? is roll call going to report it? >> i just think -- i think our standards are -- our lawyers have raised grave concerns about stolen material. i think that is -- >> also, this is different fundamentally than what edward snowden did. i mean, we are not talking about constitutional issues here. we're not talking about a threat to the fabric of our republican. we're talking about two studio executives sniping at each other. that's what this is. >> well, also, add on top of that, howard, you're dealing also with an organization that just threatened 9/11-style attacks. are those the type of people whose stolen material you want to traffic in as well? i think that changes. i understand how you feel as a public official in saying, come
on, i put up with it, you put up with it too. in this case -- >> this is an interesting philosophical debate where you can have these kinds of questions. are you going to, like, judge it differently? what do your lawyers say about it? these are the decisions we have to make on a regular basis. >> i wonder if there's a media professor out there who says if you have the north korean government illegally getting information and then following up by an arm of that government threatening a suicide bombing attacks on movie theaters showing a comedy, i wonder what media professor -- what respectable institution would say, yes, if you're the editor -- >> i can tie this into 2016. this election is going to be so much different than even 2012. not only do you have to worry about someone getting caught
videoing you on their phone, you have the legitimate concern it's not that hard to hack in and get all of your e-mails for the last six years and have those released. and the idea you can keep that information from the public. which you certainly could in 2012. i think what candidates are going to be exposed to is going to be more intense and scarier than it has been. >> jeb bush just dumped 250,000 emays from his governors time into the public. for them to paw through as part of his exploratory operation. i think that makes a lot of sense. you guys might as well do the -- >> jim, you might recall this, in 2012, sarah palin's account, e-mail was attacked. i'm asking this because i honestly don't recall. what was the standard news organizations generally apply? >> when e-mails were attacked, they printed them. >> her husband's e-mail address, a lot of information about the kids. it all got out there.
>> so there's a political precedent here. >> it seems that there needs to be some grown-ups running "the new york times," running politico, running, you know -- >> and there are -- >> "the washington post," i mean, it's a shame that you guys are doing that. no, i'm just saying, there should be -- michael steele. you're cdoing the right thing. i'm saying the main news line organization, abc, cbs, nbc, should not print these e-mails. they should not print things that are hacked illegally. we have a bad enough time getting good candidates to go out and run because of the b.s. that's written about them and their families. half of them lies. on the internet right now. now you start going into private e-mail accounts. the sony ceo. since 2008. you're going to drive away every single man and woman would could make a difference in turning this country around.
>> i think that's a very -- >> it's just a very -- what ceo in america -- what teacher in america is going to want to run for office and make a difference in the white house, make a difference on a local school board if they think every e-mail they've written over the past decade at 3:00 in the morning when they were really, really pissed off at somebody or -- okay, for me, at 10:00 in the morning, when they're really, really pissed off at somebody. but think about all the good people, michael steele, that this is going to drive from politics. if what jim is saying is right and if the media doesn't step up in a forceful way and say these are the new standards we're living by? >> joe, that is exactly the point right there. you've laid it out the right way. the question for the journalists at the table is what is the standard? we've heard "the new york times" lawyers have put a little bit of a bar there. how do you look at this?
where do you draw the line? is it salacious personal stuff that are clearly the attack on the celebrity of someone. versus the substance of a corporate intrigue. where do you guys draw the line, because -- >> let's start with "the new york times." that's a great question. help me understand this. "the new york times" doesn't look at the e-mails and they don't print it but if the "new york post" prints it, you can print what's in the "new york post"? because if that's the case, that's a copout. >> there's a very strict editorial question there. i do know my editors exercise sound enough judgment that if it's just, you know, something that doesn't seem to rise to the level of newsworthiness, that doesn't, for example, point to alleged racism by executives, for example, something of -- >> obviously. >> still ahead on "morning joe," we've got former governor and presidential candidate jen
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the morning papers. congress has quietly decided to end the ban on medical marijuana. the recently passed spending bill includes a provision that keeps federal agents from raiding retail shops in states that have legalized medical marijuana. 32 states in the district of columbia have legalized pot for medical conditions. president obama's expected to sign the spending bill into law later this week. >> eokay, we look at the los angeles times. says that every police officer in his city will soon be equ equipped with a body camera. >> i love it. that's fantastic. >> so the lapd has been testing the cameras for the past several months. after raising more than $1.5 million, is going to be moving forward with a plan to buy more than 7,000 cameras for law enforcement officials. he went on to say the trust between a community and its police department can be eroded in a single moment. trust is built on transparency. >> so, howard, i've been talking about this for a very long time.
and it's interesting. how does it cut for libertarians on the right and for aclu types on the left? i always look at it as, hey, this is positive, this stops police abuse. there's some people who are saying, wait, cameras all over the city, they can follow our every move, et cetera. sort of like a big brother state is watching you. >> we put these in every car in vermont a long time ago. we found it helps a lot both the police and the people who are being arrested. it actually helped the police a little more. because you can see the people who are arrested for dunk driving staggering around and stuff. a lawyer takes a look at that and goes, okay, we're pleading. also, it will claim abuse and there isn't any. but it also helps -- >> -- civil liberty aspect of
it, any concern there or -- >> i don't get a civil liberty piece of this unless for some reason these tapes are foot available to nonpolice officers. if you can see the whole tape and you can't doctor the tape -- this is between the officer and the person being arrested. i think it helps both sides. it helped determine who is really making this stuff up -- >> because of what we saw with eric garner, there were five witnesses. five police officers on eric garner. do we need five different angles of police -- >> so a lot of people say -- yeah, a lot of people say the police knew that there is a videotape there, but when you're a police, i guarantee you, if you wear a camera around every time we're working, it's going to change the way we act, the way we approach people. if those five cops all knew they
were going to be judged by how they treated eric garner, eric garner would be alive today, he just would. especially the guy with the choke hold. he would have known he was not going to be able to -- >> well, that's part of it. it has to do with training. the one commonalty between ferguson and staten island is the police were not as well trained as they should have been. regardless of what the grand jury's found out, you know, what you want to say about the grand jury. i think we all have our different opinions. you don't fire 12 shots at somebody. there's a way you do this. no matter how difficult the situation is. i don't seat downsie the downsi cameras. >> so long as -- i always talk about how public defenders are always on the short end of the stick. i want to make sure the public
defenders and the criminal defense attorneys get those tapes as quickly as the police officers do. and they don't have to sit and ask for a discovery and wait and then wait and then wait. automatic. get it up on a website. >> well, don't know about a public website. >> well, get it up on a website that lawyers can have the password to, the public defender -- >> -- within three days, something like that -- >> when i say website, i'm talking about -- there's a way the lawyers can make it, you have a code, you go to a centralized website and you can see, you know, the rest. let's finish with the new jersey governor. chris christie defending his love for the boys. the dallas cowboys. after getting hammered on social media. it all started sunday during the cowboys win over the eagles in philly. high fiving cowboys owner jerry jones in the sky box. that sparked some nasty reaction
from eagle fans. the former pennsylvania governor recently said, how can a jersey guy be a cowboys fan? it's pathetic. called christie a creep and made a derogatory comment about his weight. that's great. the governor reacted to the backlash at a local radio station. i'm sure he did it with a light touch. >> i'm an enthusiastic dallas cowboys fan. i've never made a secret of it from the time i entered public life. you know, i was there rooting for my favorite team. some people reacted badly to it. but that's okay. i understand. they're passionate about the eagles too. the people who listen to you know i call it as i see it. i'm not going to be one of these politicians whoeni eninchanges sports team loyalties just to score political point. >> i say good for him actually on that front. by the way, eagles fans, they booed santa claus, so they're going to be a little tough. >> if there are e-mail, that
point to him being a fan of anybody else, then that's going to be -- >> he's an public figure though. >> you know, professional sports is so interesting, the way it interacts with politics. because it does matter who you aleenlan allegiances are. paying attention to that in many cases for more than what you're actually doing. >> i only know that twitter feed. >> chris christie has a lot bigger problems. >> but he'd certainly love to win texas. >> he would love texas. there are a lot of billionaires in jerry jones box that can write some checks for a presidential campaign. if you are a dallas cowboys fan, it certainly helps to be in that box filled with billionaires. coming up, from jeb bush to cruz paul. we're going to be talking to somebody who knows a thing or two about running for the republican presidential nomination, jon huntsman.
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we've got the former republican governor of utah and former presidential candidate jon huntsman. jeremy peters also with us, along with robert gibbs back at the table. governor, always great to see you. >> the hour's late, my man, the hour's late. we've heard about jeb bush talking about getting into the race. questions about whether he's conservative enough. i wonder if you're looking at the republican party i'm looking at and seeing that actually we've grown up a little bit since 2012. >> i think so. you look at the 2014 cycle. i think some real serious people emerged from that election cycle. i think moreover, the electorate, having blown up the system, now wants to put it back together again. >> a lot of people in the republican primaries in 2010 and
2012 that couldn't win and kept harry reid in power. >> i think the message in 2014 was get something done. we want problem solvers. people who bring ideas to the table. maybe even work across the party line and do something. the firebrands didn't seem to break through. that gives me some sense, some hope, that 2016 could see some real problem solvers emerge, bringing some ideas to the table. as opposed to the negativity of ripping somebody down. the positive spin of putting some real thinking on the table. >> could jeb bush be that guy? >> i think jeb is a very powerful guy. potential candidate. i think he's terrific. well known. governor of an important state. he's got the kind of temperament that transcends just the political. let's face it. we wanted the new new six years ago. we got the new new. now it's a little bit of nostalgia that worked in earlier years. >> from the new new to the old
old. i don't know if jeb would like that. but robert, as the guy who represented the new new in 2008. >> i think the governor touches on the fact that we tend to pick our president's -- our next president based on what we see lacking in the current one. right? in the nbc poll, even in time in the late 1990s when bill clinton's approval rating was in the 60s, was close, it was still 50% of the country that wanted something different than clinton. the same with bush, the same with obama. i think the successful candidate is going to be somebody that makes up for what the public sees as the deficiencies of the current occupant. >> yeah. >> i think that's -- i agree with the former governor, that jeb bush is a guy who has some of those traits. and i think -- i think the most interesting thing for me is, how do you get the nomination to get to the general election? >> well, you got to get in early
and you got to get a whole lot of money and be seen as authentic. not everybody needs to agree with you, but you have to have a sense of authenticity. i think based on his accomplishments, based on -- he brings a sense of authenticity. when you're in the mix, it is pretty apparent that politics is a real marketplace. a new product is introduced and there's a reaction. somebody fills the vacuum. there's a reaction. so the reaction will be where do the contributors go, the money people? where do the early organizers go? how does everybody response? and this will create a significant reordering of the race in a pretty short period of time. >> so the national review actually put up an editorial this morning that i just tweeted out about a message to conservatives that they should give jeb a chance. the national review is also
detailing this morning ted crui cruz's own blueprint. he said he's going to play to the base. according to several top advisers, the senator sees a path to victory that relies on increasing conservative turnout, attracting votes from jews, hispanics and millennials that have tended to favor democrats. and in the words of one cruz strategist, not getting killed with independents. that's interesting. >> i mean, look, yes, you know, grow the -- grow your base. don't get killed among independents. and expand into hispanics. sure. i just don't -- >> well, being conservative -- >> i just don't see. i think the question for ted cruz is this. he's right now a more naturally talented michele bachmann. michele bachmann, remember this well, at a time in the summer of
2013. she could never grow beyond people who were going to be with her no matter -- they were going to be with her no matter what she said what she did. she never could get beyond. that was, you know, 12% at the time. she never could get beyond that group. he's going to have people -- you go to iowa right now and you do a poll, ted cruz is, you know, he's probably not first. christie is probably in there. but who are you most committed to being for. he's going to win that. >> you have the question for governor? >> i think you look at the way -- you said, i'm not going to pander to the extremes in my party. it didn't work. jeb bush basically said the same thing. i wonder what would you advice be to him so he's successful? >> if i knew anything about how these campaigns are to be run, i
wouldn't be sitting here with you right now. this is better than being president. let's just say that getting in early is way to his advantage. doing iowa, which we chose not to do. we put all our chips down in new hampshire and took third in new hampshire. just sheer grit and hard work. you got to play iowa. you don't have to win in iowa, but you have to get the top four. jeb bush could easily get the top four. then you have to go to new hampshire and do well. you get south carolina, which is a good state for govern burr. then florida and super tuesday. you got to play iowa, which is what some people have avoided in the past. >> so you said iowa? >> absolutely, that's a mistake. >> even if you're not going to win, you can't afford not to be two things. you can't afford not to be where
all the media is watching, right? because by definition, you're out of a bunch of the stories. the second thing is, if you can't compete in iowa, iowa's a swing state. iowa's going to be a state which is where you'll spend time in the general election. if you can't compete there, i totally agree. there are people would say, let's skip it. it isn't it work. >> stay with us. coming up next, the price of oil. it is in a free fall and opec is refusing to act, a special representative from the state department's going to be our next guest with a major impact this is having on the united states and global economies, especially russia. when we return. [ male announcer ] are you so stuffed up, you feel like you're underwater?
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having a ripple effect across the globe. with us, special envoy of the bureau of energy resources at the state department. among hoxstein. cnbc's headquarters, brian sullivan. a lot to talk about. also governor huntsman still with us. amos, it looks like oil prices are doing barack obama's global bidding, if you look at russia, who's been misbehaving in the ukraine. this puts them back on their heels. the same with iranians. in new youclear talks with us. you've got isis, venezuela. this undercuts their power in the caribbean. a lot of moving parts. most seems to be good. >> first, it's remarkable we're talking about oil below $60. >> totally. >> it is remarkable. what was it? it was 115 in june. >> that's right. >> of last june. >> as soon as isis went in and took over mosul, oil prices went up to $115.
that was the peak. we've been averaging in the $100 to $110. we had all these banks telling us 100 is the new floor for the foreseeable future. that was in june and july. today, we're in a different world. it's having great impacts on a number of countries. some americans may look at it and say this is not a bad news story. other countries, this is a real struggle. on the isis side, it's both side, of that equation. we're trying to diminish their oil revenues. but iraq needs the revenues more. they're trying to fight isis and fund the new government where most of the revenue's oil. today, they basically lost 50% of the revenues. >> in russia, vladimir putin is seeing an economic crisis like he's never seen before. the ruble in free fall. what happens next? >> when you're a large gas station effectively, you have to
figure out how you diversify and broaden the economy. when you look at the price per barrel russia needs to hit, they're about $100, $200 a barrel. that's where the economy's pegged. even when you get to the gulf, kuwait's probably 75, saudi arabia's 95. so you look at the whole mix regally, and they're in the water now. >> why are the saudis, why is opec deciding they're not going to intervene? >> just a couple weeks add, said, we'll let the market sort it out. they're grabbing market share. they're more interested in market share than pricing. >> getting consensus in opec, they have great differences among them. getting a consensus is almost impossible. this is a complex issue.
on the other hand, intervening in the market is a big risk. if you intervene and it doesn't work and oil prices go down, that's a risk. they're looking at iran, russia, the consequence is in tnot nec y necessarily negative. >> the points about russia are well taken. russia still one of the ten biggest economies in the world. this could reduce their gdp by 40%. that is an economic disaster. russia defaulted on its deet bt 19 88. i want to ask you, especially governor huntsman, because i'm going to head out to midland, texas. to talk about the economic story there. for most of america this is a good news story. we go to the gas pump, things are cheap. there's a decidedly negative
impact on texas, oklahoma, parts of utah where you've seen an oil and gas infrastructure built out which has helped the overall u.s. economic recovery. >> it's been huge. when you go out to midland, you're going to see that employment, unemployment is probably 2.5%. the average starting income is 82,000 bucks. i was just out there myself not long ago. what is exciting, tight oil is probably in a different category in terms of competitiveness. but gas and the export potential is huge. so we have to be using this to our strategic advantage. this could be a new foundation on which you build friends and support your allies. japan, korea, their needs. we're about to become the largest exporter in the world of lng. if you had told anybody that, we would have called you crazy. that's about to happen in places like midland and the -- >> strategically, what do we need to do?
>> well, we need to get used to a world in which saudi arabia is probably seen in a different context in terms of our overall energy for security kind of relationship. goes back to the 1950s. we need to say, okay, as a pillar of strategy, always a good thing to have in foreign policy, energy now becomes a tool for the united states, where we've never had that before. and how can we rearrange a gloebl straig global strategy based on energy as a driver? it's a huge advantage for us. >> all you need to know about the impact on middle class families is to look at the nbc poll. almost 80% of the public felt at least some positive impact from lower gas prices. what's remarkable is when we've seen lower gas prices in the economic downturn, it's been because demand has fallen, right so whenever the economy picks up and people want to take longer drives, go on vacation in their cars, because demand increases, the price increases. that's always been hard. this is a time in which you've seen the economy still going and the price of gas dropping, which
would be a real big benefit. >> all right, guys, thank you so much. amos, really quickly, how low does it go? >> i'll never bid on oil prices. >> very good. smart man. thank you so much. we always appreciate you being with us. coming up next, director jim burton recruited two of hollywood's biggest stars for his new film "big eyes." scenes in the movie about one of the nation's biggest art frauds. stay with us.
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hey, tim burton's new film "big eyes" the true story of the 1950s con artist walter keane who for decades passed his wife's margaret, paintings often as his own. one of the biggest art frauds of the century. the film's been nominated for three golden globe awards including best actor for christoph waltz and best actress for amy adams. >> you were the only living soul i could tell my secret to. i painted every single one of them. every big eye. me. >> i grew up in the culture where, you know, keanes were on everyone's wall. no other art. that was it. it was very, very present in my life. >> he sells paintings and he
sells pictures of the paintings and he sells postcards of the pictures of the paintings. >> my god, it's a movement. >> i don't think it's often, amy, you get to meet someone you're playing and tell their story. >> sure. >> was that difficult for you or did you feel the pressure from that? >> well, i felt the pressure to do a performance that show would feel honored her and was respectful to her. it was actually helpful because she's such a sort of internal person. really, i needed to meet her to understand more about her character. >> she's incredibly quiet, shy person. but, you know, she still paints either day. is really a special person. >> why are you lying? >> sadly, people don't buy lady art. >> the painting says keane. i'm keane. you're keane. >> smile. >> sometimes i'm asked about tim, you know, this is not a typical tim burton movie. it certainly is because the interesting things that we don't like to confront within ourselves are underneath where
it's dark and there's a tight lid on it and tim is the person who pushes the lid off and it bubbles up. >> maybe i could sign it myself. >> that sounds a bit confusing, doesn't it? keane means me. >> do you think you'll do more fills in the future based off of true stories? >> i picked "ed wood" and this, so this is my idea of -- you know, like, you make fantasy films, but those kinds of films. i grew up on, like, fantasy films. when they speak to you and they're real, it's like a fairy tale. more real and, you know, more real life than some real life movie. so it's a weird -- again, perception is an interesting thing. >> you don't even know what the truth is. >> so, who is the artist? >> well, that looks fascinating.
"big eyes" opens in theaters christmas day. you were commenting on lewis's posture. >> very professional. >> tough questions, legs crossed. his notepad. christoph waltz is pretty amazing. amy adams. what a con they had going. >> i know, i know. speaking of cons, lewis really did a good job. >> he did a great job. >> coming up next, what, if anything, did we learn.
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he's keeping busy as well. he just released his holiday card which features his whole family on a rafting trip in wellp with. isn't that cool? can we go in closer? he's the only one not doing any paddling. he's just sitting there. >> welcome back, kids. time to talk about what we learned today. make sure you don't have any call-ins that your mother can call in and embarrass you on national television. >> i do have a huge crush on joy woodhouse. the woodhouse boy's mama who called in. i think she's pretty cool. >> a steel magnolia right there. >> i will say, even as we thought dropping oil prices would impact places like russia, to hear their gdp could fall by 40% -- >> can you believe that? >> a whole new world.
>> and venezuela defaulting on their debt. it is a whole new world. >> what did you learn? >> as every other republican candidate seems to thing they can get the nomination by expanding what the republican party is. ted cruz thinks he can get it by shrinking that. >> if it's way too early, it's "morning joe." stick around though. because "the rundown" with san jose is state ahead. we begin with breaking news out of cuba on "the rundown." has learned that alan gross, a 65-year-old american citizen who's been in prison in that island for more than five years, is on his way home. a senior administration official tells nbc news this morning alan gross has departed cuba on a u.s. government plane bound for the united states. he was released on humanitarian grounds at the request of the united states. the president will be speaking at noon