tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC March 26, 2015 8:00pm-9:01pm PDT
missions are incredibly expensive, paid for by taxpayer dollars. we don't just send somebody home because they're tired and have had enough. >> mark sorry, we're just about out of time. thank you very much for joining us. our best to your brother. good luck with this mission. thank you, mark. >> you're very welcome, lawrence. >> chris hayes is up next. >> tonight on "all in." >> he's knocking, he's asking to be let in. zero response from the copilot. >> the germanwings crash becomes criminal. mass murder now suspected as cockpit audio suggests the co-pilot deliberately crashed into the alps. we'll have the latest on the stunning developments from france. then, mapping out the middle east after saudi arabia begins dropping bombs on yemen. plus, shades of rodney king. a police beating caught on dash cam in suburban detroit. >> i didn't do anything. >> the man in that video joins me tonight. and it is a bathroom fad
causing headaches for sewer systems across america. >> and you can see, those are all wipes, right? >> wipes just get everywhere. >> an "all in" investigation into america's newfound love affair with moist personal wipes. >> disgusting! that is so disgusting! "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. a stunning development today in the crash of germanwings flight 9525. the co-pilot's intention was, apparently, to quote, destroy the aircraft. that the assertion of the chief french prosecutor overseeing the criminal investigation of the crash, bryce rubin, who described often in great detail what he says happened in the final 30 minutes of the flight, based on the audio from the plane's cockpit voice recorder and the transcript of that audio. quoting "the new york times'" translation of today's press conference, during the first 20 minutes, the pilots talked normally, mr. robin said, saying they spoke in a cheerful and courteous way. there is nothing abnormal happening, he said.
the pilot, whose name has not yet been released, was preparing a standard landing plan for dusseldorf and the pilot asked the co-pilot to take over and sounds indicate that the pilot left the cabin and the cockpit door closed. at this stage, quoting again, the co-pilot is in control alone, the prosecutor said. it is when he is alone that the co-pilot manipulates the flight monitoring system to activate the descent of the plane. the prosecutor said, this action could only have been voluntary. and then later, the captain is heard pleading to get back into the cockpit, but the co-pilot, heard breathing normally until the plane crashes, does not react. you can hear the commanding pilot ask for access to the cockpit several times, the prosecutor says. he identifies himself, but the co-pilot does not provide any answer. it should be noted that the airbus 320 mechanism for the cockpit door allowed someone inside the cockpit to lock the door in such a way that the normal procedure for getting in from outside the cockpit is disabled for five minutes, as depicted in the airbus training video.
the video also shows an emergency procedure for gaining access to the cockpit if the pilot is incapacitated. >> the captain moves the toggle switch to the lock position. the open light remains extinguished. now if we look at the code pad, the red light is lit, confirming the door is locked. be careful, automatic door opening, the code pad, and the buzzer are inhibited for five minutes. obtaining no response, she decides to use the emergency access procedure. on the code pad, she enters the emergency code, then presses the hash key. this triggers the timer for 30 seconds. the green light on the code pad flashes, indicating imminent unlocking. >> just before the crash, passengers could be heard screaming, according to the french prosecutor, as noted by lufthansa's chief executive. when one person is responsible for 150 lives, it is more than suicide. and of course, there is now heightened, intense scrutiny on the young co-pilot who apparently brought the plane down on purpose. his name, we learned today, is
andrews lubitz and he had, according to lufthansa, passed medical and psychological tests. today investigators searched his parent's home for possible investigate. and joining me now, claudio lavanio. what do we know about mr. lubitz? is there any indication of any possible motive? >> reporter: well, this is exactly the problem, chris, there is just none. this is a man that we understand, especially from local reports, from a small town in germany, that he had a childhood dream and that was to fly. since he was in elementary school, he said that that's what he wanted to do. he worked hard to do it. he started training at lufthansa in 2008. he started as a flight attendant and he just worked his way up to becoming what he just wanted to become, a pilot. he just finally realized his dream about a year and a half ago, when germanwings, the budget airline from lufthansa
gave him a job as a co-pilot. he's clocked 630 hours of flying. this just sounds like someone who's realized his dream. so there's no indication on why, at least on the professional level, why he would do something like that. on the personal level, as you said, he did pass all the psychological tests, the person, the neighbors that were interviewed today from local papers said he was a nice boy, and i'm just quoting a local newspaper there. they kept saying that this was his dream job. we do have a bit of a record there that may explain he had some dark side, if you may call it like that, about six years ago, he took six months off his training because of a burnout syndrome. some kind of depression, but the authorities say that they may not build any link between that, which was six years ago, and what he did on tuesday.
of course, they're not leaving any stone unturned. they are looking at his history, his background, they are interviewing the pilots that worked with him in the last weeks and months, to see whether they have any indications of any strange anomalies, any strange behavior, something he might have told them that may just explain why he did that. >> nbc news correspondent, claudio lavagna, thank you, claudio. michael, there's so much to get to here. >> yes, where to start. >> so before we get to the possible motivation for this, or precedent for this. let's just talk for a second about the cockpit door and protocol there. i mean, obviously, one of the big safety concerns after 9/11 was the impregnability of the cockpit. and we did see a real design shift and protocol shift, not just in the u.s. and around the world, right, around making that cockpit as much as a fortress as possible. >> well, in the united states, certainly, but some places around the world, not quite as
much. but the thinking, as you said, after 9/11 was, we need to protect the cockpit from the cabin. this turns that equation on its head. we may need to protect the cabin from the cockpit. that fundamentally changes the security threat. so here we have a situation, and, you know, from what we know, the voice recorder obviously, clearly, he intentionally did this. and then we had data streaming, that led us to understand exactly what he did. i mean, he was a smart opportunist in that sense, right after cruising altitude, he probably either knew the captain would go to the restroom or it's pretty much standard practice. he took advantage of that. and the airbus plane has a flight management system, so it overrides pilot action. that's why that very unclear -- that very puzzling descent that most aviation experts couldn't figure out. he took it down within the speed and within the speed, so the flight management system would not override it, and he programmed to it 100 feet, because the flight management
system will not allow the airbus 320 to go under that. so, i mean, this was methodical. and had he not -- had the captain not left, he may have chosen another flight at a later date. >> so here's another question about this. and maybe this is a dumb question, but i'll ask anyway. i'm a little unclear how based on the streaming data plus the vocal recordings, they can be sure who is the pilot and who is the co-pilot in this scenario. >> well, they probably know the voices of the two. so, you know -- they're pretty -- i mean, this was a stunning announcement pip mean, to come out three days after -- >> yes! >> -- "the new york times" report, i mean, normally these speculative reports really do damage to investigations, because investigators have to chase each new lead. to have the german authorities come out and say, we know that he brought the plane down, i mean, that's -- they know that. they know the voice profile. so that's not as surprising. but i'll tell you, i'm not sure going forward what we do to fix this. you know, there's the cosmetic.
you know, the whole notion of two people in the cockpit at any and all times, right? so if one leaves, you have a flight attendant that comes in. that was primarily for medical reasons, if someone had a heart attack. that's why that was put in there. so now, we have airlines saying, tomorrow morning, we're going to do that. you know, that's not really sufficient. and chris, here's why things don't change after the horrific year -- i mean, people are scared. i mean, statistics show otherwise, but they're on the edge of their seat. but the regulators use those statistics and here's what they are. 1 in 25 million chances of being killed in a plane crash. that means if you got in a plane every day for 365 years a day, it would be 63,000 years before you would be involved. so, when they look at that, when the regulators, faa or otherwise -- they say, you know, we can't put in major changes to how we do business, because these accidents are so rare. >> and one of the things, i think, to look for as this investigation plays out is that in previous incidents in which
there's heavy suspicion that, indeed, it was a pilot murder/suicide, there's always a degree to which it's very hard to definitively ascertain why they did it. so we may not have -- it feels like there should be some satisfying diary entry somewhere, where we learn, but we may not. >> and egypt air, there was a pilot suicide, and the egyptians still disagree with the ntsb and the state department on the nature of that crash. >> michael, thank you. always appreciate it. >> you're welcome. a police dash cam captures a very ugly scene in michigan, as white police officers pull a black man from his vehicle and beat him bloody. i'll talk to the man you see there on the ground, being beaten, ahead. you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. everybody knows that parker. well... did you know auctioneers make bad grocery store clerks? that'll be $23.50. now .75, 23.75, hold 'em. hey now do i hear 23.75? 24! hey 24 dollar, 24 and a quarter, quarter now half, 24 and a half and .75! 25!
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the example that made its way around the internet today was a letter addressed to former carolina player, dante clabria. it reads, enjoy a dinner out compliments of coach dean smith. enclosed is a check in the amount of $200. the trustee tells espn.com that the checks were sent out on monday to about 180 letterman. many of dean smith's players went on to have successful nba careers, including that guy, the man widely considered to be the greatest basketball player, if not greatest athlete of all time. in his 36 seasons as head coach, dean smith won 879 games and had two national championships. but one of the things i'll always remember about coach smith is something he once told john feinstein about helping to de-segregate restaurants in north carolina in the late '50s. "you should never be proud of doing the right thing. you should just do the right thing." you could sit at your computer and read all about zero-turn mowers. click. scroll. tweet. or you could just sit on a john deere
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protesters tonight are vowing to shut down the detroit suburb of inkster after video emerges showing an african-american man beaten by white police officers after a traffic stop. auto worker floyd dent who worked for ford for 37 years and who has no criminal history was driving in inkster in january when he was pulled over by police for a traffic violation, as seen on this police dash cam video. a warning, what your about to see is very disturbing. as police approach dent's car, dent opens the door, prompting an officer to raise his weapon. after a brief exchange, during which officers claim dent appeared to be reaching for something in the vehicle and said to them, quote, i'll kill you, another officer pulls the retired auto worker out of the vehicle and pushes him to the ground. the first officer then puts dent in a choke hold, and then starts to punch him, repeatedly, in the head, as the second officer
struggles to put dent in handcuffs. in the video, you can see dent being punched in the head 16 times. a few minutes -- moments later, more officers arrive on the scene, including one who tazes dent in his thigh and stomach, as he is lying on the ground. a police report indicates that dent was also kicked at least twice during his arrest. dent says he spent three days in the hospital, with injuries included broken ribs, an orbital fracture and blood on his brain. police claimed in their report that dent was hostile to officers on the scene. they said they found crack cocaine beneath the passenger seat of dent's car. police charged dent with assault, resisting arrest, and possession of cocaine. dent says the drugs were planted. he says the hospital blood test showed no drugs in his system, no weapons were found in his possession, police had no audio record of his alleged threat to kill them, and although the officer who put dent in a choke hold and punched him repeatedly says dent bit him, that officer, william melendez, indicated on the police report that he was not injured and has no official
record of having been bitten. melendez has been accused of impropriety in the past. >> officer melendez, the one seen throwing the punches, is the same officer while working as a detroit police officer in 2003, was charged by the u.s. attorney's office with planting evidence and falsifying reports. a jury found officer melendez not guilty. >> after seeing the video, a judge threw out most of the charges against dent, though he still faces the drug charge. yesterday, protesters in inkster, which is 73% african-american, rallied at the inkster police department and called for the officers involved to be fired. >> this is blatant police brutality. towns like inkster, all over this nation, are faced with the same problem. inkster is no different than ferguson or sanford or any of these other small towns, where police are using an excessive uses of force. >> at a press conference today, city leaders urged patience. the inkster police have opened an investigation in the incident
and the michigan state police are investigating as well. one officer has been placed on desk duty. >> we're not afraid of following the facts and we'll take appropriate action. but this -- it needs to be independent, it needs to be thorough, and it needs to be impartial. i don't want to rush to any conclusions. >> joining me now is floyd dent with his attorney, gregory rohl. mr. dent, maybe i'll start by asking you, just what was happening right before you got pulled over and did you have any sense of what was coming when you pulled your car over? >> i was visiting a friend before i got pulled over. >> and the police tailed you and after a traffic -- after a stop sign, and you pulled over, they say that you were hostile, that you seemed -- that you said, "i'm going to kill you." did that happen? >> no, that's not true. >> what was going through your mind as you are on the ground, being punched, repeatedly, by
officers. what are they saying to you at that point? >> they wasn't say -- all they was doing was punching me, telling me to resist. i told them to stop choking me, i can't breathe. he just kept on joking me. >> you said, "i can't breathe?" >> right, i told him -- stop choking me, i can't breathe. and he continued are choking me. you know? and after about 15 seconds, i just gave up, you know? because i couldn't -- i was on my last breath. you know? and that's when he let go. >> do you remember being tased? >> yes, i remember being tased. i heard somebody in the background saying, "taze the mf."
>> mr. rohl, let me ask this question to you. there is -- i want to play some tape of a local affiliate that has an angle of the video that they say suggests the possibility of an officer planting the drugs in question, which is the contention that you have for your client. take a look at this footage for a moment. >> reporter: in the video, the officer seen throwing the punches, william melendez, is seen pulling something from his pocket that looks like a plastic baggy with something inside it. melendez testified in court, police found a baggy of crack cocaine under the passenger seat. >> mr. rohl, is it you and your client's contention that the police planted the crack cocaine they say they found in the car? >> chris, it's pretty obvious, if you look at the entirety of the tape, first of all, the officer who beat my client, known as robo cop, did the initial inspection of the vehicle, you can see him on tape go through the passenger compartment, where allegedly the
cocaine was found, and come out with his hands clear and clean of anything. and then he goes to the back of the car, when the state troopers leave the scene, there's another officer who stepped in the middle of the camera, and then you can see robo cop reach into his pocket, and sure enough, start pulling some plastic bag out, the officer then steps in the camera again, and all of a sudden, whoopty doo, it's right in front of him and he starts field testing in it. i guarantee you my client's fingerprints are nowhere on there. we're submitting him for a polygraph on it to confirm it. and if it wasn't for the history of this officer having done it in the past, and thank god for that, we would be going for trial. honestly, my client was offered a plea. >> yeah, he was offered a plea on the drug charge. which you have declined. >> a plea of probation. he could have taken it and nothing would have happened. and he said, quite honestly, an innocent man does not plead guilty. good for him.
>> just two clarifications, when you say robo cop, that was a nickname for melendez. >> he calls himself that. >> right. and also i should say, he was acquitted. he was tried and acquitted of planting evidence. >> hold on, he was acquitted of a criminal charge, chris, but he also has nine violations of civil rights, which they paid millions of dollars in the city of detroit based upon his prior actions. quite honestly -- >> please continue. >> i'm sorry? >> finish. >> quite honestly, this man took the oath during our examination and proudly indicated that he racially profiled my client, saw him as a black man, driving a cadillac, in a high-crime area of inkster, and that served as a proper basis for a pullover. it had nothing to do with the stop sign. his testimony was very clear, he was proud of it, and said, i was going to pull him over, no matter what. >> mr. dent, finally, i just want to get your sense of what
you want to see happen next. >> well, i would like to see the officer fired for what he done, because he had done a terrible job. you know, he beat me, you know? and, you know, i just can't -- i'm just lost for words right now. >> we want accountability is what we want. that's all we want. we want the system to work. >> thank you, mr. dent and mr. rohl. really appreciate it. thank you very much. all right, there's a story out of georgia you probably haven't heard, but you probably would have heard if the man behind it was muslim. i'll explain, next. nfused where's mr. craig? well, i'm sorta mr. craig. we're both between 35 and 45 years old. we both like to save money on car insurance. and we're both really good at teaching people a lesson. um, let's go. cool. sit down! alright. sorta you, isn't you. only esurance has coveragemyway. it helps make sure you only pay for what's right for you not someone sorta like you.
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on november 4th, the fbi explosive unit was called to vickery creek park in roswell, georgia, to investigate a suspicious package. and unlike other calls, this one was not a false alarm. >> a mother and daughter hiking along victory creek trail spotted a backpack a few feet off the beaten path and called 911. roswell police contacted cobb county's bomb squad and the fbi, once they took a closer look at the backpack, which the fbi described as filled with bomb components, including pipes. it had all the makings of an ied, an improvised explosive device. >> the backpack wasn't just filled with the makings of two bombs. federal authorities found a koran, a book titled "the rape
of kuwait," a t-shirt, and location of youish centers in the area among other things. last week, the fbi found their man. and it wasn't a member of al qaeda or an isis cell that had come to georgia, as one might think examining the contents of the backpack. no, agents aced georgia resident michael sibley after he confessed to leaving the homemade bombs. he told authorities he put the other items, including the koran in the backpack as well, and he purchased the t-shirt from a garage sale and wrote a name, mina kodari in the backpack, because it looked foreign. he put the jewish center because he knew law enforcement would consider them soft targets. he told the fbi he was a patriot. he said he felt no one was pay attention to what was going on in the world. in other words, it appears, this man wanted to create the impression of islamic terrorism where there was actually none, so that people would understand just how ubiquitous islamic terrorism is. because some people need demons
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saudi arabia announced yesterday they are bombing yemen, their neighbor down here, along with a coalition of other gulf states. they're doing it as the country falls into a very, very scary civil war. american personnel evacuated, ngos are leaving. i want to bring in ayman mohyeldin to explain what is going on, because the region is so engulfed right now in war, chaos, and strife, it can be extremely confusing. so ayman, it's great to have you here. >> great to be here. >> obviously under sort of terrible circumstances. so here's yemen, and i find maps really useful, because you can really lose sight of where's where, right? let's start with yemen. yemen is a very poor country and up until around 2011, what was the relationship between barack obama, u.s. white house and the yemeni government? >> well, with all u.s. administrations, really, not just barack obama, yemen was a
cornerstone of counterterrorism operations. they were under the rule of saleh, who was by all measures, an authoritarian ruler, a strong man in his country, and a very close ally to the united states, sharing intelligence and allowing the u.s. to carry out whatever counterterrorism operations they did, including controversial drone strikes. >> so aqap which is al qaeda in the arabian peninsula, is operating out of yemen. the shoe bomber, the underwear bomber, trained in yemen. >> that is a side of yemen that people obviously sometimes focus on, that they definitely had a very robust terrorism hub, if you will for drawing some of these extremist terrorists from around the world. >> so you have this classic deal with the devil. the u.s. says, we'll look the other way while you put journalists in jail and repress people. just help us coordinate on counterterrorism. and then the arab spring happens. what happens to saleh? >> at that point, he's ousted from power.
he tried to hang on to power, but ultimately was forced from power and we saw the country begin to fracture, along all kinds of different lines, there was a process that was put in place that brought into the power the vice president, he was supposed to bring in reforms, but yemen does have a part of the population that are shias, and they wanted a better say in the affairs of that country. they wanted to have a political and economic part of the pie, so to speak. they weren't getting it as much as they wanted to. and that led to a military insurgency, a rebellion, that brought to the scene, not forefront of that, the houthi rebels. they have been around for a while, but really have 2011, gained a lot of momentum on the ground. >> so into the sort of vortex of power, you have the houthis who are shia, sunni and shia, the two dominant strains of islam. the houthi shia rebels basically say we don't want to go shut out of government anymore and start to take more and more territory. we now have a situation in which they have managed to essentially chase the sunni president from
yemen. he landed today in saudi arabia. in this context, why is saudi arabia going into yemen? >> well, first of all, look at where yemen is. strategically, it's important. this passageway that leads to the suez canal is where so much of the world's oil supply flows from. that's important for saudi arabia. but more importantly, there is a certain part of yemen that is shia, and saudi arabia is staunchly sunni. it has very much concern about iranian influence growing in the region. iran is supporting the houthi rebels. if not militaristically, at least morally and from a political point of view. diplomatic, at least. so saudi arabia wanted to make sure that doesn't happen, so they are trying to make sure that the entire country does not fall to the houthi rebels and protect their president. >> so we've got just the broader context here and the thing that everyone is talking about when you talk about proxy wars. you have the sunni state of saudi arabia, which is the sunni power in the region. you have the islamic public of iran, which is the pillar of shia power. and in three different countries now, in syria, in iraq, and in yemen, you have open, violent warfare between shia and sunni
factions, in which iran is essentially, allegedly, backing the shia factions, and this now, saudi arabia and other sunni nations are backing the sunni factions. >> and one of the greatest ironies of what is going on right now, the united states is involved in trying to defeat isis in iraq. >> the sunnis. >> yeah, the sunnis. they are using iranian-backed shia militias on the ground, as well as the iraqi army. >> so they're bombing on the side of iran, in iraq. >> yes. >> and then down in yemen, they are bombing against the iranian-backed houthis. >> exactly. >> this is a massively complicated and extremely violent and somewhat bleak situation. amman mohyeldin, thank you so much. >> my pleasure, chris. >> back in a moment. we used to have so many empty rolls! (cha-ching!) (cha-ching!) (cha-ching!) it felt like we were flushing money
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did you feel justice was served when general maginnis got sentenced to 40 years? >> yes, as far as his crimes go, but not for thousands of service -- >> i'm sorry to interrupt. my producer is telling me that jacqueline sharp has called in, the house majority whip. congresswoman, are you there? >> yes, i'm here, chris, and thank you for taking my call. >> thank you. >> that was a clip from my favorite episode of season 2 of "house of cards." all 13 emsoeds -- episodes of season three are streaming now on netflix. i haven't watched any of them yet, because i have a tendency to watch things i'm not in, but that won't stop us from having the creator of "house of cards" on tomorrow. we'll talk about a number of things, like -- what's up with doug stamper and
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the fight over arctic drilling is heating up in seattle. and if that sentence doesn't quite scan for you, let me explain. as we first reported last week, commissioners from the port of seattle, with little notice to the public, agreed in february to a the two-year $13 million deal that paves the way for royal dutch shell to pave the way for drilling which would take place thousands of miles away off the coast of alaska. although there would be no drilling in seattle, shell would keep and service its rigs in the port. this is a big deal, and not just because it creates environmental risks for seattle itself. as outraged seattle environmentalists have pointed out, the deal means their city is poised to play a central role in shell kick-starting its arctic oil drilling efforts, which after a series of setbacks, have been suspended since 2012, despite the company reportedly having spent more than $4 billion on the endeavor.
at the behest of the seattle mayor and the city council, the seattle department of planning and development is now reviewing the legitimacy of the deal. and environmental groups have sued the port to block it. but for now, the deal is moving forward. on tuesday, port commissioners upheld their decision to let the arctic drilling rigs dock at the port. in audio leaked to the seattle newspaper, "the stranger," over the weekend, port commissioner bill bryant dismissed components of the deal and laughed about the stranger awarding him five dead polar bears for supporting him. >> we're going to move forward and we're going to have shell there. the first drilling rig will arrive in early april and we've been threatened with a flotilla of kayaks to block it. so we'll see what happens. [ laughter ] >> on monday, "the seattle times" newspaper editorialized in favor of the port deal, writing that blocking those rigs at terminal 5 wouldn't stop arctic drilling, nor alter the course of climate change. and arguing that if the deal is killed, shell will simply move to another port. and if that argument sounds familiar, it's because it is.
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you don't carry baby wipes? >> no. >> i do. i carry them in my man purse. >> then it becomes -- >> you've got a man purse? get the baby wipes. the only thing embarrassing with baby wipes is -- >> they're baby wipes and >> and everyone knows why they're using them. >> howard stern has been on the baby wipe bandwagon for years, baby wipes for his own personal use, even though he's not a baby, specifically for his own personal use in the bathroom. he's not the only celebrity who likes the wipes. back in 2007, what terrence howard said was a deal breaker for him in the romance department. if they're using dry paper, they aren't washing all of themselves, it's just unclean. if i go inside a woman's house and see the toilet paper there, i'll explain this and if she doesn't make the adjustment to baby wipes, i'll know she's not completely clean. the market for mature baby wipes has seen huge growth. a baby wipe boom boom. the popularity of the so-called flushable wipes is having some serious repercussions down the drain.
>> ugh! >> reporter: for generations, parents have used baby wipes to, well, wipe their babies. but there's a new growth market. baby wipes for adults. >> until you use wet charmin fresh mates, you will find there's a cleaner clean you can get behind. >> reporter: it's big business. sales of personal wipes have doubled worldwide since 2003. in north america, sales have tripled. in 2013, nearly 20 billion wipes were sold and 9 billion of them were in the moist toilet tissue category. many of them are marketed as flushable. and they are. pull the lever and it disappears. but it does go somewhere. >> every bit of water, when it goes somewhere, it comes here. >> that's right. >> reporter: in new york city, where toilets are flushed 10 million times every single day, whatever you send down the toilet ends up here. at one of the city's 14 waste water treatment plants.
we visited the largest in north brooklyn. this one facility deals with hundreds of millions of gallons of raw sewage produced by over 1 million new yorkers every day. >> so we are at the influent chamber for the new town creek waste treatment plant. this is where the raw sewage from brooklyn comes in and this is the first step in the treatment process. >> so the raw sewage comes in here, right? and its first step is -- what is this? >> this is the far screens. it's a mechanism to physically remove debris that's in sewage. so you'll see in here paper bags, candy wrapper, a rubber ball. and that's what we generally removed for years and years and years through this process. but over the last few years, we've been just seeing more and more baby wipes, to the point now where the vast majority of what gets removed here are wipes. >> the amount of debris that workers sift out of new york sewage has doubled in just the last six years, which the city says seems to correspond with the boom in flushable wipes. >> you can see here, look at
this, this is the machine, the rake is stopping stuff here, the machine comes, it grabs the stuff that has been physically stopped, and you can see -- that's -- those are all wipes, that's -- those are all wipes, right? >> wipes just get everywhere. >> disgusting! that is so disgusting! >> many wipes get caught on the bars, but a lot of wipes actually make it through, and gum up the equipment in our plants, they get stuck in gears, in pump impellers. >> new york city says it has spent more than $18 million on wipe-related equipment issues just over the last five years. and every year, the city fills up over 2,500 dumpsters full of debris, which ends up in landfills. the bulk of that debris right now? this stuff. >> this is gross. >> it is pulled out, and it has a weird almost other braiding to it. >> they do knot up, and it makes
them more difficult to rake and remove. they just get into these big knots. >> why is this more problematic for your system, the sewage system here and across the country than just toilet paper? >> toilet paper is tree pulp, it is organic, it falls apart, it gets absorbed. ? the treatment process we have a digestion system that breaks down organizics. these are synthetic and plastic based. they don't break down, we have to physically remove them and that is an extra cost that we didn't anticipate years ago. >> a lot of them are being advertised as flushable, right? >> they are flushable to the extent that they'll go down your toilet. but they end up somewhere, and that is here. >> they're flushable but they don't break down here. >> you can flush a golf ball but they end up here. >> the wipe industry has guidelines for what is flushable and what is not.
they blame the consumers flushing the nonflushable wipes. whatever the wipe had on the label, it's where it ends up that's the problem. >> in the four-and-a-half years you have been here, have you seen an increase? >> definitely more baby wipes. >> just one of the trays in this one facility fills up every half hour. all of those wipes have to be removed by hand. >> show me how you do this here. i don't know if the camera is capturing this, but there is [ bleep ] in there, right? >> do you see this baby wipe consumers of america. do you see what you're doing to matt here? >> joining me now is dave russa e, the president of inana, a trade association which represents wipe manufacturers among other users of nonwoven fabrics. how did we get to this point
where nine billion personal wipes as personal care or all termtive toilet papers are being sold in the u.s.? >> the flushable wipes is a relatively new category that has grown quite nicely, but they have developed as a solution to many problems beyond personal care. and to hard surface disinfecting to skin care disinfecting, to personal care. >> let's talk about the personal wipes. what's fascinating is that you have had a product that didn't exist before, now exist, and its use a agreeing rapidly. is it a chicken or a egg problem, people said you know what, those baby wipes, bet adults can use them to or did the industrity start catering to the need. >> more the latter than the
former. there were attempts to market moist toilet tissue as toilet tissue that did not work. but there was nevertheless a need out there among consumers to splumt toilet paper with some moist apparatus to complete the function. and they were gravitating toward baby wipes. so baebs baby wipes weren't designed for that purse. they are designed to be rolled up in a disposable diaper and thrown in a trash can. not to be flushed. stow the engineers went about engineering a substrate that does believe properly in a sewage system. >>s in cake. what i'm hearing from you and you sounds slightly uncomfortful with this whole thing although presumably this is your job. we are all adults here. you found customers from on the sly using baby wipes, and then designers inside these companies thought, well we have to actually create a product that's
for adults. went about trying to engineer products that could be flushed. hence the creation of these flushable wipes marketsed to adults? >> that is a simplified version that is basically accurate. >> are the flushable wipes actually flushable. they are flushable. they go down the toilet. but do they actually break down the way toilet paper does? i want to go over a consumer report that shows a test they did in 2013. take a look. >> yeah. >> here is how easily toilet paper breaks down in consumer reports tests. here's the same test for the flushable wipes. testers gave up after 10 minutes. then they tried to break the wipes down in a mixer. another ten minutes in the mixer and the wipes stillent zchbtds break down. our advice, don't flush flushable wipes. >> that what we're hearing from
sewer departments across the # country, what is your response? >> well, i'm aware that particular consumer products video. we don't know what wipe they were using and certainly cannot validate their testing methods. but here is the real issue, chris. the problem that the sewage treatment districts are having around the country are not caused by the wipes that are designed and marketed to be flushed that pass the guidelines to be flushable. those are not causing the problem and they're less than 10% of the wipes sold. >> how can you say that definitively? how do you know that? >> because we have developed a set of flushability assessment guidelines, scientifically, that measure seven different properties of fabrics that are designed to disintegrate as they pass through the wastewater treatment system.
the tests that consumer products showed you is just one of seven. the wipes that are designed to be flushable have to pass all seven. if they fail one, then they are not. >> caller: to be flushable. >> so you're confident that the things being sold as flushable that's not problem. the problem is on user error, basically, there is a lot of people out there flushing wipes that are not marketed or designed to be flushed? >> that's essentially true. the wipes that are flushable that pass guidelines are not causing problems in sewer systems. but that's a small percentage. the majority of the wipes being flushed and causing a burden and we acknowledge this, from were never designed to be flushed and if they're used in a bathroom setting, they're often times disposed of in a toilet when they're not supposed today be. -- we're doing something about that, chris. >> you're partnering with some municipalities.
we might see an education campaign for people, don't flush your wipes if they're not flushable. >> yes, we're partnering with four of the largest water and waste water associations in the u.s. and canada. we have a collaborative process that's gone on. it's gone on about a year and it's making great progress in further designing flush ability and the properties of flushability that they can agree to. but also going beyond that and developing a code of practice for the proper labelling of all wipes if they're flushable or not. if they are not flushable our do not flush symbol or logo will indicate that to the consumer. david rousse, thank you for your time. we performed an experiment in the office today because this segment was not long enough. after kimberly clark e-mails us
to say that their flushable wipes did in fact disintegrate. we did that. for good measure, we put in toilet paper and a different brand of flushable wipe shar minute, and kimberly-clark's product. we left it in there for one hour but left the cameras rolling. bottom line tp is still tops. that is "all in" for this evening. i made it the whole time without laughing. the "rachel maddow show" starts right now. good evening rachel. >> aren't there some days when you love your job more than other days. >> yeah i do. >> and some days when you love it less. i will say kudos to you chris
for doing the entire segment with two important design elements, one was the really excellent music you had played. >> the delightful backtrack. >> the sound track playing while you were reaching in and making it real. but also the fact that that's the only news segment in the history of news segments where the word moist was the least gross word in the segment. >> i love the fact that the nonwoven acrylics industry has a lobby. >> and their lobbyist is really embarrassed about it. amazing stuff. chris. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. a lot going on in the news today. we have got a big show toonltd. three years ago tomorrow, on march 27th 201, jet blue flight took off from new york city heading west to las vegas. about three