tv All In With Chris Hayes MSNBC November 23, 2015 5:00pm-6:01pm PST
thank you to jay newton small, clarence page and mindy finn. that is hardball for now. thanks for being with us. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in" -- >> i want surveillance of certain mosques. okay? >> gop front-runner donald trump is make up scary stories about american muslims. >> there were people that were cheering on the other side of new jersey where you have large arab populations. they were cheering as the world trade center came down. >> representative keith ellison the first muslim elected to congress is with me to respond. plus, a black lives matter activist -- >> get him the hell out of here, will you, please? >> violently removed from a trump event. >> maybe he should have been roughed up. >> i'll speak with an eyewitness from that rally. then who does america trust to handle the threat of terrorism? a new poll finds one 2016 candidate leading the entire field. and later, why the nra is blocking a bill to keep guns out of the hands of people on the terror watch list.
>> the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. >> "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. this was the scene moments ago at a trump rally in columbus, ohio after a protester reacted to comments from donald trump about survaeeilling muslims in america. the protester shouted down by angry members of the crowd. a scene that's been repeated over and over again at trump campaign events. the very first day of donald trump's candidacy when he referred to mexican immigrants as criminals and rapists his campaign has been characterized by extreme statements steeped in bigotry and bearing a tenuous relationship to facts. but donald trump is still the front-runner. he's paid very little price for those kinds of comments. in the wake of the attacks in paris with much of the political and media establishment stoking fear and panic, trump seems to have concluded he can only benefit by ratcheting up the rhetoric even further. in just the last three days he's
trotted out a long debunked myth about american muslims celebrating on 9/11. >> i watched when the world trade center came tumbling down and i watched in jersey city, new jersey where thousands and thousands of people were cheering as that building was coming down. thousands of people were cheering. >> that is demonstrably not true, just so you know. he's called for the u.s. government to bring back waterboarding and the bush-era torture regime. >> so you'd bring back wat waterboarding? >> we have to -- i would bring it back, yes. i think waterboarding is peanuts compared to what they do to us. what they did to james foley when they chopped off his head, that's a whole different level. and i would absolutely bring back interrogation and strong interrogation. >> you've also -- >> the event in columbus, ohio he reiterated that call and he's also retweeted blatantly race exist completely bogus crime
statistics which the website little green footballs traced back to i atwitter account whose bio included the line ane i am not making up this "we should have listened to the austrian chap with the little mustache." this afternoon the user removed that line from the bio. no confirmation we're guessing it was a reference to this guy. and trump has condoned, even encouraged supporters at a rally in alabama who physically assaulted an african-american protester who chanted black lives matter during his remarks. >> and he was so obnoxious and so loud. he was screaming. i had 10,000 people in the room yesterday. 10,000 people. and this guy started screaming by himself. and i don't know. rough up? he should have been -- maybe he should have been roughed up because it was absolutely disgusting what he was doing. >> what happened at that rally is just the latest string of violent incidents associated with candidate 2k07b8d trum. p in august two boston brothers were least ford assaulting jaimeless man who was hispanic allegedly telling police donald trump is right all these illegals need to be deported. and as with the episode this
weekend trump didn't seem to mind mind much. >> i haven't heard about that. i think that would be a shame. but i haven't heard about that. i will say the people that are following are very passionate. they love this country. they want this country to be great again. and they are very passionate. i will say that. >> very passionate. after some backlash he eventually condemned at tack. in early september trump's own security guard, the same one he ordered to expel jorge ramos from a press constant, punched a protester whose sign he was confiscatin confiscating. just days later a trump supporter was photographed pulling the hair of a young immigration activist at a rally in d.c. and last month a protester in miami was kicked and violently dragged at an event while onlookers chanted "usa." join meg now, carlos chavers, youth president national affirmative action's birmham chapter who wingtsed his friend be attacked by a crowd. first set the scene for me. you went to protest at the trump event in birmingham. where were you standing during the event?
>> first off, thanks so much, chris, for having me on your show tonight. so on saturday once i got on the inside it was around 11:15 that morning and mr. trump had already taken the stage to speak here in birmingham. once i got inside i made my way closer to the back where you see the flag is throughout the videos. and i was able to try to find the other two protesters that were a part of -- that were removed also. so the plan was for me to link up with them once we got on the inside so that we could protest and exercise our first amendment rights. >> so one of your associatesed started yelling at one point "black lives matter" i believe in the speech. tell me what you saw happened after that, after he started doing that. >> yes, sir. so we actually started chanting "dump the trump" and "trump the chump" before we led into the "black lives matter" protest. and so i was recording through
the app periscope, which allows you to broadcast live from anywhere in the world. and through that app you can see in the video that as i'm recording and we're chanting some of trump's supporters began to knock my phone out of my hand and put their hands up and stop me from being able to record and to silence us really. so mercutio, the gentleman that was assaulted, he made his way closer to the stage, and we were trying to follow right behind him. and next thing we know, about six to twelve guys started surrounding him and beating him and punching him and choking him, as you see on the video. >> i just want to stop you there because there's trump supporters saying none of this happened, that he was never assaulted, no one ever laid a -- no one ever swung at him no, one ever choked him, that in fact it was mercutio who was swinging. you were right there. you're telling me he was physically and violently assaulted by the folks who were there to attend the trump rally. >> yes, sir. he was viciously attacked and
assaulted by those individuals. he was choked. he was kicked. and you can see that in the video. if there's anyone out there that can't see that, then there's a problem. we have a huge problem in america with that when we try to paint the picture to be something it was not. he was in fact assaulted right there in 2k07b8d trump's rally here in birmingham. >> carlos, let me ask you this. what was that atmosphere like? when you start doing that, obviously you know that the crowd's not going to be happy. that would be true at any event, whether it's the president of the united states on down to any political event. if there's protesters that are going to interrupt and shout at a candidate and their supporters are there you know they're not going to be happy. but describe what that atmosphere felt like in that moment. >> right. so this is -- the bottom line is that we were actually protesting the fact that donald trump was in the historic city of birmingham, a population of 75% black, a city where we have progressed so heavily from the civil rights era and you know, we were only trying to exercise our first amendment rights that allow us to protest anywhere we
want to anytime, anyhow we want to do it. now, in the constitution it does not limit when we're able to protest or how we're able to do it or the way we go about doing it. just like it was a rally and people were there yelling and screaming in support of trump, we were there not in support of trump. and we had every right to exercise our first amendment rights which allow us to do so. and at no point, no one had the audacity to put their hands on any person that was not doing any harm to anyone else. we have the same right. and for them -- for trump to come into birmingham, the city of birmingham where my grandmother marched in a children's march back in the '60s, to fight for our freedom and our civil rights, for him to come on the same night we're honoring fred shuttlesworth and having a reception for fred shuttlesworth in his memory and honor, donald trump is here spewing hatred and racism. and even he went as far to criticize the media for turning to when we were being escorted out of the building. he said that the media had the cameras to the back where we
belonged. he said that we belonged in the back. and if you know anything, we've moved so far beyond that. he was simply saying that black people deserve to be in the back of the room. and that's not acceptable. and we won't tolerate it. if you ask me, i say it like this. i believe that donald trump is really the modern-day bull connor. he go around our country spewing hatred and racism and is not accepted here in the city of birmingham. we're on the verge of raising our minimum wage to 10.10 an hour. so trump doesn't support raising a minimum wage. we welcome immigrants to our city. and trump does not. >> all right. charls chaverst, thank you so much for your time. >> thank you for having me. >> donald trump speaking just moments ago in columbus, ohio talked about this precise incident that carlos witnessed firsthand. take a listen. >> two nights ago we had a phenomenal room just like this. and the place was packed.
and we had one protester in the very back, and he started screaming and yelling. and really was very -- you know, it was terrible, actually. but security -- nothing to do with my security. it was the local security. the convention center security. they took him out. the cameras never moved. i said show the crowd. the cameras stayed -- just now they stayed the same. they never move. they don't do it purposely. i figured maybe they weren't adjustable. but as soon as this guy was taken out, all of the cameras were right on him. you know? they were right on him. they were following him right out the door. and they said he got treated rough. first of all, it wasn't my people if they treated him rough. but he was really misbehaving badly. it's one of those things. >> they said he got treated rough, it wasn't my people but he was misbehaving badly. you can sort of put two and two together there. i got a chance to speak earlier with democratic congressman keith ellison, one two of muslims currently serving in congress and asked what he made of trump's recent comments. >> it means that he's whipping
up hatred to scapegoat a minority religious group which has some very dangerous historic precedences as you might agree. it's the kind of behavior that's classic demagoguery. he's going to get somebody hurt. i don't suppose he cares much. but it should be the kind of behavior that is roundly denounced. and the thing that scares me is that the more he says outrageous inflammatory things it seems like it doesn't seem to cost him in terms of support, which makes me a little bit worried about the people who support him. >> you just said he's going to get somebody hurt. what do you mean by that? >> what i mean is that when leaders who have a national platform whip up hate and hysteria against a particular group, particularly a religious
group, minority religious group which is in -- that is not popular, invariably you know, the people who are mentally unstable or motivated by hate come out of the woodwork and you see desecrations of buildings that are associated with that group. you see assaults. you see murders. you see things happen. there's a fairly significant track record of this kind of thing, and i think that it really demonstrates how much of an anti-leader he really is. you know, for all the political disagreements i have for george bush after 9/11 he went to moxz. he said anybody who desecrates a mob is going eld accountable by the law. he made it very clear that it was not the muslim community in the united states to blame for 9/11. and yet quite the opposite is true from donald trump. but it's not just muslims. he said that mexican-americans
are bringing crime, they're bringing drugs, and some of them are rapists. and so he said this about people who are mexican. this man is a pretty prolific hater and he's just getting worse. he's capitalizing on people's fear. he's pandering to it. so that's what i mean by he can get people hurt. >> yeah. he also -- he retweeted this sort of statistic produced by a sort of frankly white supremacist neo-nazi sympathizing source and tweeted originally there. you know, how do you take this? you serve in congress. this is not your first rodeo. do you watch this and think this is terrible and unfortunate but essentially a preposterous, very small, fervent base, or do you think to yourself i don't like the way this is going? >> i think to myself i don't
like the way this is going, i know that every country including our own, you know, will go through a period of trouble where leadership can lead people to a better place or leadership can bring them to a dark ugly place. we can get moved toward ugly episodes like japanese internment, turning away the st. louis, which was a boat that was trying to save jews from the holocaust and got turned around, away, got turned away from our shores. and we can have -- we can rise to the occasion and offer leadership or we can go down those dark paths. i think it can go either way depending on the leadership of the people who are on the scene at the given moment. and he's a very scary person to have on the scene. i'm hoping that other people will rise up. i'm going to be using my voice as much as i can to denounce that he's saying, to tell people
he's a fear mongerer. he's down on america. and he's trying to whip up hate and get ordinary citizens to blame their fellow citizens for their problems. this is the very core of what it means to be a demagogue. but that's all we can do because invariably there will be people who drink that kool-aid that he's serving and yet this is the time when we all get tested in my opinion. >> congressman keith ellison, great thanks. >> thank you. still ahead, as donald trump continues to take his rhetoric to new and vicious levels, his polls stay relatively untouched. perhaps even improving. how long will that last? plus, breaking news of possible indictment for the officer involved in the shooting death of a 17-year-old, laquan mcdonald as chicago braces for the release of dash cam video of the incident. we'll have the latest. and later, why it is legal for people on the terror watch list to buy guns and why the nra wants to keep it that way. those stories and more ahead. the twins. aunt alice...
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today the state department issued a rare worldwide travel alert, warning of an increased risk of attacks by isis, al qaeda, and other terror groups. the travel alert does not indicate intelligence of a specific attack but says it's due to increased terror threats. meanwhile, today an explosive belt was found in a suburb south of paris according to a spokesperson for the paris prosecutor. french police told the a.p. the device contained the same type of explosives as those used in the november 13th attacks. as investigators continue the manhunt for suspects in that attack, as brussels is under a quasi-state of siege with the highest possible terror warning, we're also learning about a strange case of mistaken identity in the wake of the raid on saint-denis. remember this photo? widely used last week, alleging to show the woman killed in that police raid in the paris suburb following the attacks. well, it turns out that photo is not of hasna aitboulahcen, who is seen here, but instead of a woman in morocco named nabil nabila bakana, who toeld told al
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so you can own it. it's safe to say when donald trump announced his campaign for president back in mid june basically no, one predicted he'd be kicking off a five-month streak of dominance in the polls. after a short-lived bump for ben carson trump is once again way out ahead in the two latest national polls beating carson by 10% in both, and he's crushing the competition in new hampshire. a real clear politics average has him more than 14 points, or double the support of the runner-up, marco rubio. according to one of our foremost polling experts mean of that really matters.
in a post entitled "dear media, stop freaking out about donald trump's polls," nate silver argues if past nomination races are any guide the vast moijt of republican voters haven't made up their minds yet. according to silver while trump has consistently clocked around 25% of republicans' support those votes are still up for grabs because most haven't gotten serious about picking a candidate. joining me now michael steele msnbc conflict analyst and former rnc chair and sam seder msnbc contributor and host of "the majority report." and sam, i'll begin with you because my sense is you don't think nate is correct. >> i'm a fan. but if past stories in 538 about trump's longevity and durability are any indication, they're wrong. i mean, it's quite possible that some other candidate will arise. it's quite possible that in some way that we can't even really it seems to imagine at this point that somehow trump will implode. but the bottom line is this is telling us something about the republican electorate.
and we can pretend that it's a function of trump, but there is a graph here from john mccain picking sarah palin to mitt romney never making that pivot to the center after his primary to donald trump. there's something going on in the republican party and it's being missed i think by a large portion of the media. >> michael, do you think -- i guess i asked your opinion on silver's idea, which is basically look, everyone's way out ahead of this people make up their minds late, particularly new hampshire, this is going to go away on its own. what do you think of that? >> i think everything's right up to that last point, that it will go away on its own. i think sam has it pretty much dead on. i think there's a lot that's roiling beneath the surface that's getting reflected in a number of polls here and there. but it's really not been fully tapped into yet. so i think, you know, what nate has put out there is largely true, that there's still a significant portion of the base that has not necessarily voted or voiced its opinion
necessarily but i still think this is reflective of other things that are happening within the party that are yet to be addressed. i think donald trump has in large measure tapped into that. and i think quite honestly everybody else doesn't have a freaking clue how to deal with it. >> that i agree with. i want to show you live pictures because i think this relates to one of the analyses. and i also am a fan of nate's and i think their coverage is fascinating often and quite often quite on the money. one of the things i think is important as you look at him making his way through the sea of people here, people will sometimes point, michael, to oh, who is leading at this point when we were similarly in cycle. and sometimes it's herman cain or might be governor rick perry or rudy giuliani when we go back two cycles. >> but this isn't that. >> that's my point. no one was at rudy giuliani rallies like this. >> exactly. >> and crowds are not votes. you know, those are different things. ron paul had huge crowds and didn't get votes. but what you are seeing in front
of you, the combination of the things he's saying, the kind of ugliness particularly of that rhetoric, and the enthusiastic rapturous attention he's getting, that is a real thing. that's not being created by anyone. you agree, right, michael? >> i do agree. and crowds, while they may not represent votes, they do represent a mood. and they do -- you see it in ben carson. you see it in bernie sanders. you see it on the right and the left, that with respect to the bases of the democrat and republican party there is a mood that has settled in. it is more pronounced obviously for the republicans because we've got a lot more going on than the dems do right now. but at the end of the day that mood is something -- and this is the question which may go to what nate was touching on. will that mood translate into a broader population of voters when they get to voting in february? >> michael, sam has been shaking his head for 60 minutes since you mentioned bernie sanders. >> not just bernie sanders, and
ben carson. the fact of the matter is there was a number two and anytime you had any of those blips in 2012 you had a number two that was consistent throughout 2011 and that was mitt romney. there has been no such thing in this race in 2016. but the bottom line is this is not a mood about outsiders. this is not a mood because, i mean, frankly bernie sanders has been a congressman and has been in washington for maybe as long as i've been an adult at this point. so this is not a mood about outsiders. donald trump's attraction from the republican base has to do with nativism. his campaign started with nativism on that single day. he continues to follow that path. the other thing is this notion of anti-pc. that is meaningless in terms of policy. but it speaks to this notion that the conservatives have that they don't like what's going on in this country, they don't like what's happening. they feel that it's being taken over by any string of people, you want to call them gay or you want to call them muslim or you want to call them non-white or
brown or black. i mean, that's what's going on with this republican base. and it's a mistake to say it's anything else. not a mood about outsiderism. >> michael. >> i never said it was a mood about outsiderism. you did. i said it was a mood and that mood is partly what you reflected there for sure. but it's not just the sort of racist tent that you want to put on it. it's a lot more that goes to about 30 years of a base that has been lied to, left on the side of the road. probably from a policy position taken for granted. and now that's all come to head. this -- >> but let me -- >> it goes back much further than 2009, folks. >> let me say this because i actually think you're both right. i actually think it is a mood of nativis nativism. i think there's this very strong let's call it identity politics for a certain segment of the population that feels they're being left behind. to what michael said, i think there's also -- there's a component of that when you talk about immigration and trade particularly where those same voters feel like they've been sold out by the republican establishment that they -- that
the republican establishment doesn't share their views fundamentally on immigration and trade. and donald trump, and this is what we're seeing and why i think -- why he's grown in strength after paris, no one can -- the normal kinds of political gravity that operate on actors in this situation, which is shame, which is worrying -- >> worrying about -- >> politeness. the party. >> all those things. >> none of those are operating. so you're just getting that pure id and that's being channeled. and you're going to see when and if gravity reasserts itself. michael steele, sam seder, always great to have you guys on. >> bye now. coming up, news of a possible indictment as chicago prepares for the release of dash cam footage showing the officer-involved shooting death of lakwan mcdonald. we will have the latest ahead. it's your grandpappy's hammer and he would have wanted you to have it. it meant a lot to him... yes, ge makes powerful machines. but i'll be writing the code that will allow those machines to share information with each other. i'll be changing the way the world works.
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just hours after the deadly attacks in paris earlier this month when milwaukee county sheriff david a. clark, a frequent fox news guest, tweeted "if gop plays this politically smart they can end any chance the dems win the white house in 2016. war is politics carried on by other means." that same night ann coulter wrote, "they can wait if they like until next november for the actual balloting but donald trump was elected president tonight." that view expressed rather crudely above that the american people turn to the gop during times of increased fear of terrorism is a widely held view. one could almost call it's conventional wisdom. in fact, today marco rubio released his first tv ad focusing on terrorism, specifically the attacks in
paris. >> what happened in paris could happen here. there is no middle ground. these aren't disgruntled or disempowered people. these are radical terrorists who want to kill us. i'm marco rubio. i approve this message because there can be no arrangement or negotiation. either they win or we do. >> that ad will start airing tomorrow according to the rubio campaign, but new polling out today challenges the premise that americans turn toward the gop when terrorism is a major concern. a "washington post"/abc news poll finds when asked who they trust more to handle the threat of terrorism hillary clinton or the republican candidates for president, the american people choose the former secretary of state over and over again. in fact, on that question people trust hillary clinton over ben carson 49-40, which leaves donald trump 58-42. marco rubio 47-43. and finally jeb bush 46-43.
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laquan mcdonald. that's the 17-year-old african-american boy who was shot and killed by a white chicago police officer last october and whose death we've been covering for months here on this program. a source with intimate knowledge of the case tells wmaq investigative political editor carol marin the officer will be indicted tomorrow and the tape of mcdonald's death will be released on wednesday pursuant to a court order. now, at the time of the shooting all the way last october the chicago police department did not offer an official account but a spokesperson for the fraternal order of police police union said at the time the teen began walking toward pulaski road and ignored the officer's request to drop the knife. officers got out of their car and approached mcdonald again telling him to drop the knife, camden said. the boy allegedly lunged at police and one of the officers opened fire. mcdonald was shot in the chest. he was pronounced dead at nearby hospital. the medical examiner's report showed the teen was shot not just once in the chest but 16 times in the chest, scalp, neck,
elbow, leg, arms, hand, and back. months later the chicago city council unanimously approved a $5 million settlement to the teen's family before any suit had been filed. laquan mcdonald's family and their lawyers have agreed not to release the dash cam footage to the public while there's still ongoing joint state and federal criminal investigation into the shooting. however, one of the lawyers for the family of mcdonald, who's seen the video, described the footage to "all in." >> when laquan is about 12 to 15 feet away from the officers, the width of an entire lane of the southbound traffic, one officer begins shooting. laquan immediately spins to the ground and the video then clearly shows that the officer continues to shoot laquan multiple times as he lays in the street. 16 seconds pass from the time laquan hits the ground until the last visible puff of smoke rises from his torso area. an officer then approaches
laquan, stands over him, and appears to shout something as he kicks the knife out of his hand. >> after a judge ordered the release of the video last week, a lawyer for the officer accused of shooting 17-year-old laquan mcdonald urged the public not to rush to judgment. >> we're confident that my client's actions were not only lawful but also within department policy and within his training. we ask that everyone please refrain from prejudging this incident solely on the video alone. >> the city now says it will publish the video by the end of day wednesday. today in anticipation of that release mayor rahm emanuel spoke with community leaders in chicago urging a peaceful response to the footage. join meg now past wor cory brooks who met with rahm emanuel earlier today. and pastor, can you tell us what that meeting was like? it seems like a somewhat strange kind of situation we found
ourselves in now with this case. >> yeah. well, the meeting was -- it is a very strange situation. and we did have the meeting today along with -- before our meeting there was another meeting with young political activists. and we did talk with the mayor and he did voice his concerns. he expressed what he would like for us to do and we expressed to him what we felt as well. we did have the meeting and i'm hoping and praying that we will not reach the type of situation that we've seen in ferguson and that we've seen in baltimore. >> there seems to be a lot of worry about this video getting out and the aftermath, and yet at the same time it seems to me that folks who are in chicago and who've been paying attention to this have a pretty good idea of what happened. >> yeah, we have a pretty good idea of what happened. we've heard the stories. we've heard even today from the mayor himself, what he believed to have happened. some of the facts from the case
were spoken to us. so we do know some of the details. one of the things that we do know is that a young man was shot 16 times and that we believe when a lot of people see this not to rush to judgment but when a lot of people see this it's going to cause a lot of damage. it's going to bring a lot of potential anger out of a lot of young people and we need to be prepared for that. >> let me ask you this. for 14 months the city has been essentially stonewalling about all of this. there's been no official comment. they have fought tooth and nail the release of that video. there was this settlement passed by the city council for $5 million which is a sizable portion of money from the perspective of these kinds of things. and now all of a sudden we're going to hear that the officer's going to be indicted and the video's going to be released. what's your reaction to that timing? >> well, the timing is rather unusual. one of the questions we want to ask is if you're going to bring
charges on tomorrow why couldn't these charges have been brought a lot earlier? and if you made a $5.2 million settlement sometime after why could you not bring some type of charges if there were charges to be made at that time? why are we a year later just now bringing charges against an individual when a suit has already been settled out of court? before it was even filed, matter of fact. those are questions that need to be answered, and i'm hoping they'll be answered on tomorrow or on wednesday. >> you know, my understanding is there are members of the family, i don't know if there's complete unanimous feelings among the family members. i know it's a slightly complicated situation. laquan mcdonald's a ward of the state at the time that he was killed. there are members of the family
who do not want the video released. who think that no good can come of it, it'll only serve to relive the trauma. is that a common feeling among folks you're talking to? >> well, it's not a common feeling amongst the community and the people that i talk with. most people want the video to be released. it's a freedom of information act. it's something that every american ought to be concerned about when the information is withheld from us that ought to be available to all citizens of america. so based upon that, there are people who want that to be released. that's why the suit was filed. that's why the judge decided on their behalf to release it. and it should be released. we should know what happened. we should be able to determine what happened. and everyone should have a right to see it. >> all right. pastor corey brooks of chicago, thank you for joining me. appreciate it. >> thank you. >> coming up, why being on the terror watch list does not stop you from being able to legally purchase a gun in the u.s. and why the nra is fighting to keep
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head by police last weekend. the police union says he was reaching for a gun. witnesses say he was handcuffed. minnesota congressman keith ellison showed up at one of the protests himself last week, one day after a picture surfaced on twitter of his son at a protest, a picture that prompted congressman ellison to tweet, "photo is agonizing for me to see. my son is peacefully protesting with hands up, officer shouldering a gun. why?" today keith ellison told me he was very concerned about the death of jamar clark but he's confident in a justice investigation into the shooting. >> all over the country and even here in minneapolis we have had difficulty getting independent thorough investigations of officer-involved shootings, particularly of african-americans. so i was sympathetic and highly concerned. but you know, we've been in touch. we asked that the justice department do an independent investigation, and they have
stepped in to do so pretty quickly. and the state of minnesota, the bureau of criminal apprehension has stepped in as well. so in minneapolis we do not have the police investigating the police. this is a good thing. and i think that i'm confident that vinita gupta who's the head of civil rights justice right now, she knows about the case. obviously civil rights justice department is taking it seriously. and i'm confident that they are going to investigate the case thoroughly. but that does not mean the neighbors and community members should take their eye off this case. i think public scrutiny is very important. public awareness is very important. and i think transparency is something that's going to have to continue to be a large part of this case. >> funeral services for jamar clark are planned for later this week. we'll be right back. ♪
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"the new york daily news" newspaper here in new york has gone to war against the national rifle association and its executive vice president, specifically its public face, wayne lapeer. last week the daily news ran a cover "the nra's sick jihad." this week they mock him as "jihadi wayne" complete with a photo shopped image of wayne as a terrorist. it's assailing nra over its opposition to a bill from democratic senator dianne feinstein and republican congressman peter king designed to prevent people on the government's terror watch list from purchasing guns. from 2004 to 2014 as the "washington post" reported, over 2,000 people on that list who the fbi suspects have some connection to terrorism were able to legally purchase guns in the u.s.
think about it. even though the gft views the people on its watch list as possible terrorists or related to terrorism it does not prevent them from legally buying firearms. among those on that list were the kouachi brothers, men allegedly responsible for the attack on french sat irical magazine "charlie hebdo." also on the list tamerlan tsarnaev, one of the two brothers behind the boston marathon bombing. >> the same nefarious individuals we monitor and bar from our planes, we turn the other way when it comes to allowing them to get guns and explosives. >> now, the bill to keep people on the terror watch list from buying guns was first introduced earlier this year. chuck schumer and others making a renewed push for its passage in the wake of the paris attacks. asked about the bill at a news conference last week top senate republicans pleaded ignorance. >> on the fbi terror watch list -- >> yeah, i'm not particularly familiar with that. >> senator feinstein has a bill with peter king in the house. >> anybody familiar with it? >> i'm not familiar with it. >> yeah, i'm not familiar with
the legislation. so i'll pass on it. >> yesterday on "meet the press" nypd commissioner bill bratton called out congress for focusing its response to the paris attacks on the wrong issue. >> if congress really wants to do something instead of just talking about something, help us out with that terrorist watch list. those thousands of people that can purchase fiermrearms in thi country. i'm more worried about them than syrian refugees to be quite frank with you. >> now, the nra in response has a pretty good argument. it's t. says it's trying to make sure law-abiding citizens aren't prevented from getting guns telling the "washington post" that the nra's only objective is to ensure that americans who are wrongly on the list are afforded their constitutional right to due process. and we know from the aclu and others there are a lot of people wrongly on that list. but imagine for a moment what the reaction would be like if someone on that terror watch list used a legally purchased weapon to carry out, god forbid, something like what we saw in paris. when we come back, what the fact that people on the terror watch list can buy guns says about america's true priorities.
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joining me now to discuss the nra effort to block a bill to prevent people on the government's terror watch list from buying guns are jim rich, editor in chief of the "new york daily news," which is waging a kind of crusade on this, today they labeled wayne lapierre jihadi wayne. let me make the argument that the nra makes and a lot of civil libertarians say, that this list is a nonsense constitutional disaster. there's a huge amount of people on it and we're not going to tell these people they can't enjoy other constitutionally protected rights like you can't worship at the place you want to worship or speak or vote.
so why should we take their guns away? >> 100% legitimate argument if it were coming from anyone other than the nra. it's convenient for the nra to jump onto that as a defense of what is seemingly otherwise a ridiculous stance. 2,000 terror suspects, right? have allegedly purchased weapons over the past roughly ten years. if only 2% of those or so, let's say 1%, were actually legitimate terrorists and they had the intent to carry out an act like we saw in paris, well, you're talking about 20 or so people, and that's more than enough. the nra has roughly 5 million members, which again comes out to about 2% of our entire country's population. it's sort of insane that they have been able to dictate and control the conversation when it comes to this topic.
>> but here's the -- i just want to be clear here. is this an argument about the hypocrisy of the nra and how insidious their role is in this debate or is this a first order argument for this policy and this bill? >> i think it's both. and i think it's -- the argument for the bill because while we can agree that the terror watch list, how people are put onto it and who is put onto it is flawed, it's what we have right now. so let's assume that okay, we're in a time of great turbulence here in the world. right? i think we need to be taking every stride that we can to ensure as much safety as we can for the american people. this bill seems like it's a pretty easy step in that direction. now, if you want to reconstruct how we go about creating this terror list, well, then let's do that. but let's not frame it around the argument of gun control. >> what this illustrates to me is just the different place that terrorism and guns occupy in our american political culture when
we think about threats and safety and danger. here's some data. since 2000, so including september 11th, we've had a little over 3,000 americans die through terrorism. that's all over the world. gun homicides just here is 138,000 deaths. right? but these are just in totally different mental categories. is that legitimate, that they're in different categories? >> no, i don't think so because i think what hand in paris shows they're not. this wasn't a series of just bombings. there were also firearms used. >> in fact, that was by far the most deadly part of it. >> exactly. and you know, we look at the really deadly and horrific massacres we've seen in this country. if you then replace the characters who did them, who are white american males, with muslims, you would have a whole different sort of category of fear that would happen in the country. i just think it's an interesting thought experiment that when you give the nra the option between these maximalist positions on gun control or on not having gun control and the potential to exercise islamophobia or
nativism that they still come down on the side of these maximalist positions. you do wonder what would the scenario be where they would support gun control? because in the past the nra has supported gun control. >> but isn't that a strike in their favor? doesn't that say -- what you just said, doesn't that say the nra is an organization with tremendous integrity? that they're not going to pander -- >> except there's nothing in the nra's behavior that indicates they care about anything other than maximizing gun sales. they have not demonstrate td in any way a sort of care about the individual liberties of muslim americans that might be on the list. they just want to sell a lot of guns. >> what joy just said here, jim-i think about a lot. we actually experienced this in real time in the network where we will find out some news, comes across and it says there's a mass shooting somewhere. >> yeah. >> this many shot, this many dead. and we think oh, god. first you're upset. then you start looking. and then there's a fork in the road about how big a story this is going to be and that's who did it. >> sure. >> and if the fork in the road goes this way, say, in oregon
where someone shot up a community college, if that had been an isis jihadi, that wouldn't have been a two or three-day story. that would be paris level coverage. >> correct. >> what is that? >> in what sense? >> i mean, what is that? why is that reaction so different? >> well, i think you're picking one particular mass shooting that probably got -- and again, i don't know this for a fact. the least amount of coverage. >> well, partly because we've become inured to it. >> sure. that's 100% the easy answer. but you could also argue that newtown, the virginia shooting that happened on air, these were incidents that were not just one or two-day news cycles. i do think, though, to joy's point that it might sadly take a jihadi, a certified jihadi sort of incident here in order to have the nra sort of reach their own fork in the road and say okay. >> well, that's to me part of the policy lesson of what happened in paris, which is
horrifying, is that guns are really dangerous and they were the most deadly weapon. there were these very complicated suicide vests that were essentially used just to kill the assailants. but what killed people were the guns. and that's something that hangs over all of us in a country with the amount of guns we have. jim rich and joy reid, thank you both. that is "all in" for this evening. "the rachel maddow show" starts right now. good evening, rachel. >> good evening, chris. good to have you back, my friend. >> thank you. >> and thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. in 1991 in louisiana the democratic party nominated this man to run for governor of that state. he had actually served a couple of terms already as governor in the 197 0z and then he was away and then he served another term as governor in the '80s. even so with all that experience he was not what you'd call a good candidate for governor. he had the advantage of being well known and hilarious, but he was kind of a creep. he had been the kind of governor that had to take time off from his gubernatorial duties to, you know, go on trial for a variety of criminal offenses.