tv Lockup Raw MSNBC December 30, 2016 11:00pm-12:01am PST
>> how long did that take? >> five minutes. >> the chilling account of one young inmate's descent into murder and a life in prison. now it's back to "lockup." and the answer is footwork. it comes down to our field producers simply taking the time to get to know dozens of inmates. >> what's going on, alex? >> other times we just follow the action and a the story unfolds under our eyes. once in a while the path to a good story is a little less obvious. >> during our "extended stay" shoot at the holman correctional facility in alabama, we were filming interviews in the administrative segregation unit when a loud disturbance occurred. >> they put me in a cell! where it comes down to my
[ bleep ] bed. it comes down on my bed, man. i can can't [ bleep ] sleep. >> inmate jamie bell is in a rage because his toilet is overflowing. he blames the inmate in the cell above him of creating the problem by interfering with the plumbing. >> [ bleep ]. >> jamie bell. listen. >> i'm trying to handle this. >> the confrontation becomes so heated that warden grant culliver gets involved. >> if you would shut [ bleep ] up, then nobody would be so [ bleep ] off at your ass. you're acting like a child. >> listen. >> we just moved him in. >> the inmate above bell's cell is serving life. his name is andrew alexander. >> there was no proof that this guy above him had done anything. but while we were filming i glanced up and i saw andrew alexander staring at me through his window.
and i kind of asked him with my mouth, did you do this? and he just had the most cold, evil smile come across his face. >> though it couldn't be proven that alexander caused the flooding, we later confirmed that he had a reputation at holman. >> word had spread around and gotten back to me that andrew was actually probably one of their more violent and notorious inmates. >> when we finally met alexander in person, we discovered he once had a notorious reputation outside of prison as well. his crimes had occurred more than two decades earlier when he and his cousins were known as the i-10 bandits. >> we might strike in texas. then the next time they see us, we were in florida the next day. we never got off the highway. >> alexander estimates he and his cousin logged almost 60 robberies in six states. and the target was always the same.
>> we were just robbing hotels. we weren't robbing nothing but hotels. we would try to go to hotels on the weekend before they go to the bank and make bank drops. now these days they got the credit cards and stuff. this is back in the '80s. more cash was being used then than it is today. >> how much money did you make? >> a lot. we blew it as soon as we made it. i wasn't the type of robber where you might see where i was down and dirty or nothing like that. i wore nice clothes. i drove nice cars, and my robbery paid for all that. >> and having a neat appearance during their holdups was part of the men's strategy. >> dress shirts, dress slacks, shoes. we automatically threw people off. we just didn't look like criminals. you know what i'm saying? we didn't dress or act like criminals. so that would automatically throw them off. we traveled looking for a room, you know. once we established that, both of us get in there, then we up with the pistols.
>> then alexander and his cousin would demand the hotel bank deposit at gunpoint and kidnap the employee. >> i just tell them, you got to go with us. you know. when you got two men with guns, you ain't going to get too much rebellious. >> in a time before cell phones, the kidnapping served a purpose other than ransom. >> we would pull off the interstate, drop them off on the secondary highway, get to the interstate. by the time they get to a phone we're gone. >> highway hotels in the south eventually began to issue warnings to their employees. but the cousins decided to pull one more job. >> what finally got you caught? tell me about that? >> we changed our plan. we was up smoking cocaine all night and getting high and partying. and we weren't supposed to go out. we seen a holiday inn we weren't supposed to miss because holiday inn had notices up. when we pulled in the holiday inn the manager or clerk automatically noticed what was going on. he got a make on us and called police.
>> this time the getaway turned into a high speed chase that ended with the two men under arrest. >> we wish it was a nightmare. wish it was a dream. hoping we wake up and it was a dream. you know? but it was over. >> alexander and his cousin each received life sentences not only for armed robbery and kidnapping, but much to alexander's surprise, rape. >> when they brought the charges, i didn't believe it. kidnap, rape. i didn't do none of this. i'm so sprung out. i don't know that the way it's going down, that it's rape. or that it's kidnapping. i'm serious. i'm dead serious. what you see on hollywood and what you see on tv when you break in a house you grab a woman and beat her up and tear her clothes off. none of this happened. >> oftentimes these guys, if you have a sexual offense charge or conviction, you're going to minimize it, mitigate it and deny it.
i got the impression that was what andrew was doing. we kidnapped the girl in charge. she got hysterical and started saying things, you know, i'll do this. i'll do that. don't you all hurt me. we told her just be quiet and we're going to let you go. she just kept pushing the issue. whatever you all want me to do i'll do. and that's how it started. so after that we start using the technique. we're going to let you go when you do this. i didn't see that as rape. but i do now. but i wasn't conscious of it then, you know. >> andrew did present himself as this soft spoken gentlemanly type of guy. but there was something to me quite chilling about him. what i would love to have done is have that woman present and hear her account of what had happened. >> i just have a bad temper. i'm not violent. i don't go out and do things. i mean, just go like -- some guys go out and start fights. i don't start no fights.
if you just aggravate me or do something to me you don't have any business doing, i'm going to respond and that response is going to be with violence. one guy shot at me one time and i drove a car into the house trying to get to him. you know what i'm saying, just that temper. mom said i got it from her. >> they're still throwing stuff in my ventilation, man. coming up -- >> all of a sudden there's just blood coming out of my eye. and i knew i got shot. >> after a violent dispute, two former roommates both end up in the maricopa county jail. >> you don't seem to be too sad about the fact that she got shot and lost an eye. >> i'm not. xw
as much media coverage as the maricopa county jail in phoenix, arizona. while many stories focus on things like the striped uniform and pink underwear that both male and female inmates are required to wear, we tried to learn more about the inmates themselves. it didn't take long before we noticed rita, who was at maricopa facing 11 felony charges along with various misdemeanors. >> yeah. only 11. not bad. if you're going to go, you got to go all out. right? i got an f-2, fraudulent schemes. eight f-4, forgeries. i got a dui, dui, drugs. drug paraphernalia, failure to appear. false information to a law officer. >> she proclaimed her innocence on all the charges. and none of them had it to do with the loss of her eye which occurred shortly before her arrest. >> for such a tragic shocking thing as losing an eye, rita had a fairly decent attitude about it.
she was pretty upbeat and positive and she took it out and showed us. >> this is the part that they cut out. it's just made out of what fake nails are made out of and this is my eye. and it moves exactly with the other one or just about. the cool thing is, though, the doctor that's doing this for me is going to make me an extra one with a black widow in it. so i can [ bleep ] people. >> only then did we get to the story of how exactly she lost her eye. it all started when she suspected her male roommate of stealing from her. >> found all these pawn slips to all my gold jewelry. not only that, but he didn't pay me the rent or put money on the electricity bills. so i kicked him out. >> on "lockup" we often shoot a lot of prisons, but one of the things that's interesting about jail as opposed to prison is it all comes from a very localized area.
so you have all these relationships from the outside that then carry over to inside the jail system. in some cases you even have people who have lived together, as in the case of rita and anthony volpe. you don't seem to be too sad about the fact that she got shot and lost an eye. >> i'm not. >> we met anthony volpe, her former roommate, about four miles away in one of maricopa's male facilities. >> i get a voicemail from rita on my phone telling me you owe me $600. i changed the locks on the doors. you're not getting any of your [ bleep ] unless you pay me and if you don't pay me, i'm going to sell it. >> though he pled not guilty, he was at maricopa facing first degree assault and burglary. all related to the incident that lost rita her eye. she does admit going to the house with two friends to get
his furniture. >> we walked over to the apartment door, knocked on it and this mutual friend of mine and rita's, henry, opened up the door, sees us, slams the door shut and starts locking it. the person that i was with got mad. he kicked the door and opened it. next thing i know, she starts shooting. she said, tony, what the [ bleep ], and bam, bam, started shooting. >> i heard wood cracking. i knew somebody was trying to break in my front door. and stuff so by the third big bang i dropped my cell phone, i took out my gun, it was already cocked and everything. i looked around the side of my bedroom door, and the third big bang, there's three guys standing there. my ex-roommate and two other gentlemen i've never seen before. i told them to get the [ bleep ] out of my house. and everything. i had my gun at them. the guy in the middle had a .12 gauge shot gun. he was kneeled on the ground. he knew what he was doing. he kept telling us to put our weapons down. i said no, get out of my house. i made sure to point it to the
right of them so they knew i wasn't shooting at them. shot off the gun, pointed back at them and said get the [ bleep ] out of my house. and i didn't think they were really going to do it, but the guy shot off a .12 gauge. >> she says she was struck in the chest and face but didn't immediately realize her eye was damaged. >> i went into the bathroom, i looked at my face. it looked fine. my eye looked fine. i came out of the bathroom and looked down and all of a sudden there's blood coming out of my eye. and i knew i got shot. >> god forgive me she lost her eye, but she chose to shoot, and she chose to -- i mean, nobody threatened her. we didn't step in the apartment before she shot. the door opened up and she shot. >> explain to me why if you're going to move furniture a guy is bringing a sawed off shotgun? >> everybody knows that rita carries a gun and everybody knows that rita will shoot. >> i'm a female half their size
and they had to go to my house and bust down a front door and come with weapons and a posse to a female's apartment? that makes me look like i'm the baddest bitch alive. right? like, come on. >> i'm pretty sure i'm going to win at trial. i really do have a good feeling about it, because the only thing i'm guilty of is i was there. i admit that. i was there but i was there for a legit reason. she knew i was coming over. i was there to get my property and she shot first. >> do you ever think you should have just shot those guys? >> yeah. everybody gives me [ bleep ] for it. everybody. i think back now and i should have. but i'm fine with it. you know? life goes on. karma's a bitch. it will come back around to them, whether they're in prison or not, it will come back around. >> it was only after the shooting that she ran into her own problems with the law and was arrested on more than a dozen charges. but during our time at maricopa, her life took a turn for the better.
>> i think at one point she was facing something like 11 felonies. ultimately she was acquitted of several. she pled out on a couple and received probation. and during our time at maricopa she was actually released. so we wanted to see how she was doing when she got out, and we ended up actually catching up with her outside of the jail facility. >> but i got my eye done since then. and it's a colored one. but i don't like it because it doesn't move exactly with this one. that's why i got glasses and stuff, so i can make sure i look straight at people. i can get it permanently put in, but that's just really costly, so it looks a lot better than the white eye everybody saw on me. >> though she only spent four months at maricopa, it became clear that it had an affect on her. >> but overall life is better? >> overall, yeah.
it's better being out of stripes. better being free. at the same time i kind of -- i didn't mind being in jail because i didn't have anything to worry about. i didn't have any bills to worry about, people, which was a good thing. when i first got out it was actually really hard. i broke down to the point where i was crying because i didn't know what the hell i was going to do. when i called my aunt, she helped me get on my feet again. hopefully this time next year i'll have my car back and job. i'm a lot happier. >> there will probably be few happy times for her former house mate. anthony volpe received a 15-year prison sentence for first-degree burglary. coming up -- >> lock me up if you want. if you lock me up, i'll burn my peter. >> burn your peter? >> one of the most unforgettable inmates we met during our european tour.
doomed decisions are not limited to american inmates as we discovered during our trip to scotland for "lockup world tour." hmp shotts is a maximum security prison that houses more than 500 inmates who have also made their share of bad decisions. many of them were young men in their 20s whose alcohol and drug addictions led them to commit an array of crimes, often involving knives. the weapon of choice in scotland. then we met the inmate they could very well become. jimmy reid. >> if you lock me up i'll burn my peter. >> burn your peter?
>> yeah. >> all right. >> his disciplinary hearing for a night full of harassing correctional staff. it more memorable than most we've ever covered. >> i admit that. >> yeah. i've let that escalate. i escalated that. >> reid was serving an 11-year sentence. he had stabbed a friend during an argument, and the man died. but reid's personal demon had made him no stranger to prison. >> how long have you been in prison? >> most of my life. >> why? what was your life like out there before prison? >> just spun out of control through alcohol, you know. >> jimmy reid was probably one of the most forthright inmates i've ever interviewed. he just was completely uncensored. very self-effacing. very honest about who he was, what he did, why he did it. and he had a great face. he had a face that looked like he had seen many, many bar fights.
and the other crimes that put you in prison before, what were those? >> very different. a lot of different things. thieving, fighting. but the majority of them were through drink. >> reid recently transferred to protective custody wing due to threats made by some younger inmates. convinced he could take care of himself, reid wasn't happy about the move. to him it was a sign of weakness. >> so "d" hall, protective custody. describe it for me. >> no good. >> why? >> this is the first time i've ever done this in 30 years. i was always a bit of a rebel, a fighter. i still am. although i'm old. i won't let anybody [ bleep ] on me. that's prison. you can't let anybody [ bleep ] you.
or they'll [ bleep ] do you. there are a lot of men in this hall afraid. afraid. i'm not [ bleep ] one of them. i'm 60. they don't attempt to bully me. they know what will happen. i'll [ bleep ] stab them. >> but reid had a larger goal than leaving protective custody. >> jimmy! passionately speaking, i don't think he wants to be here. i think he wants to move to another prison. there's another prison closer to where his family is. it's not as easy as lifting the floor and moving him. we'd have to meet certain criteria which he doesn't meet at the moment. once he's addressed his needs, then we'll look at that again. >> i come from greenock. that's a long-term prison. in greenock.
and i would like to go there because i come from there. and with 14 months left of my sentence, i would like to finish it in my hometown. so i've suggested that. they said they'll look to see if i fit the criteria. which i do, i think. because i'm not a troublemaker. >> you've been put in front of me this morning for using threatening, abusive, or assaulting words of behavior. okay. when being served with a report, he became abusive to me telling me to get the [ bleep ] -- is that correct? >> aye. >> though officials may argue reid's claim of not being a troublemaker, even reid acknowledges that wherever and whenever he finishes his sentence, he'll have issues to deal with.
>> so what happens when you get out of prison? >> what happens? i don't know. i'll need to be very careful. one mistake and i'm back for a recall. >> you think you're going to drink? >> why not? >> seems to cause you problems. >> i've been doing it for 40 years. any time i'm out. can i see myself stopping? no. no. no. >> jimmy had told us about all the problems his drinking had caused. and that he had concerns, but the fact that when he was released he planned to go right back to drinking, it was evident, that's who he is. that's who jimmy is. >> i'll be okay. i'll be all right. i hope. coming up --
range of stories from positive ones with inmates who have found redemption or earned degrees to better their life in prison, to the negative, where the cycle of violence has actually escalated for them. they've become more violent and added more time to their sentences. >> stories of troubled childhoods, multiple incarcerations and violent crime convictions are common to many of the inmates at the penitentiary of new mexico, but none of them told us their personal stories of self-destruction quite the way inmate frederico munoz did while we were shooting "lockup: extended stay." >> at the hour of my birth there were no celebrations. allow me to present my many tribulations. i come from a broken home. i am a bastard child. no wonder that my life was violent, fast, and wild. >> we met frederico when we were filming what we call "b" roll in
the outside exercise cages at the prison. he made a striking impression on me because when we started talking, he was extremely articulate. and when he talked about his crimes, he was very self-aware and very honest about the consequences of his actions. >> i was brought up into a culture where they teach you to be violent. they teach you to outsmart the enemy. they teach to you regard law enforcement and society and your government with contempt. once you have that lifestyle, that philosophy, it's not a matter of right and wrong anymore. it becomes a matter of this is my life. the life that i'm living. >> to what end? >> to this end. which is nothing. >> when we met him, munoz was in the level 6 maximum security yard serving two life sentences for two murders. >> i shot one, and i strangled the other in this county jail. both of them i'm doing life sentences for, as i should.
you can't go in a civil society, go around killing people and not expect to be punished for it. >> you must have known that while you were strangling the guy in the jail. >> sure i knew it. but as a gang banger i elected to step out of society's normal bounds, customs, mannerisms and rules. i chose to live in a world where we created our own rules, our own society. >> there wasn't an ounce of denial in frederico's account of his behavior. he was very honest and forthright about what he had done. he also utilized poetry to express it. >> it takes a person of character to live a life that's just and as i sit in prison for that life i really lust. i look back over my shoulder amazed at what i see. a life of utter bull [ bleep ], no wonder i'm not free. >> i was really dying to know what has caused a man who had so much obvious potential to commit two murders.
>> when i began flirting with crime it started off with stealing cars. i knew a couple of guys who stole cars. i would go with them. then i learned how to drive. i liked the thrill. so then i started stealing them. got arrested, i'd go to jail. meet other guys in there doing other things, more severe crime. and that's how i began to evolve of as a criminal. >> for munoz, the next phase of that evolution was to join a street gang and to develop a reputation. >> if i can intimidate you more than you can intimidate me and i can persuade you however i do it to do something, i'm imposing my will on you. >> but yet to me you seem like a pretty affable guy, so how did you achieve that? >> by violence. >> violence led to a string of burglaries and assaults that eventually landed munoz in county jail. there he joined a prison gang
and was ordered to make the ultimate commitment. assassinate an inmate who is a fellow gang member. >> i had a braided rope in my pocket. i sat down next to him on his bed and i talked to him, and when he turned his back to me i stood on the bed and i put the rope around his neck and i killed him. >> how long did that take? >> five minutes. >> those five minutes must have been a very long five minutes. >> very long five minutes. he fought me. he threw me around the room. surprisingly strong. i guess when you're fighting for your life you have strength, you know? i was curious. i had never seen death before. in person, and so i wanted to see. so i watched his eyes change from the white. they became red. they started popping out of his
head. he urinated all over himself, which obviously is a sign that it's over. his tongue swelled up. his ankles swelled up. um, it was very intimate. like you see on the movies how guys so cavalierly kill people. it wasn't like that for me. it was a thrilling thing because i had just earned my bones. i had just accomplished an assignment that was given to me and i prevailed. now morally, obviously it's a bad thing. you shouldn't be killing people. but in the lifestyle of a gang banger, i had just attained something that was intangible, but it was real enough. >> at the time munoz wasn't linked to the inmate's death. the unsolved homicide was eventually consigned to the cold case files. munoz served out the remainder of his sentence, and then he was back out on the streets, but he wasn't done killing. >> very early on the streets i had to run selling drugs and
stealing cars this for me was fun. no matter that this life is a foolish life indeed, back then this sort of wisdom i simply wouldn't heed. >> five years after literally getting away with murder in a county jail, munoz walked into a barbershop where he spotted a rival gang member and he killed again. >> i shot him two times in his chest. he fell down. he got back up, to my surprise. i mean, it was just, to me it was remarkable that you could shoot somebody two times in his chest with a .9 millimeter and he could get back up. so i finished shooting him until the clip was empty, and i jumped in my car and i left. >> this time he was arrested three hours after the shooting and was eventually sentenced to
life in prison. a few years later munos got a surprise visit. it was from the county's cold case unit. >> he talked to me in this visiting room right here and he asked me and i told him. >> almost nine years after he strangled an inmate in county jail, frederico munoz was convicted and received a second life sentence. >> so this is it, huh? >> this is it. for anybody who thinks that it's cool to gang bang, to live that lifestyle, the logical conclusion of that lifestyle is you're going to be in a casket because you were dumb enough to get shot or strangled or stabbed in prison, or you're going to be in here with me. these, my tribulations, have taught me many things. these, my tribulations and all the grief they bring. now you know my views, it's time for me to go. these, my tribulations, will only make me grow.
wesley stoltz struck us as something of an anomaly. >> welcome to my humble abode. i do a lot of reading. i try to keep up on current events and other things. here's my television. nice 13-inch with a digital card, so if we ever go to uhf, i'll get all the digital channels, too. because i am dtv ready. >> wesley stoltz was something else. i never met an inmate who said i'm dtv ready. i never met with an array of product that this guy had either. i've been to women's prisons and never seen so many products. >> this is my luxury right here. the irish spring icy blast body wash with the loofa. >> so you basically have been able to maintain metro status. >> as best as i could. >> as together as he was in appearance, stoltz made it clear prison wasn't part of his five-year plan. two years earlier, stoltz was on medical leave from his job as a manager at a luxury car company. he was on the mend from a tendon surgery that left one foot and ankle in a cast. >> i thought, you know, i'm on vacation for the surgery anyway.
i might as well go see my friends. go out to colorado. >> stoltz and his friends went out to a local bar. it was super bowl sunday. around midnight stoltz says he stepped outside to share a cigarette with a young woman. >> there were two men about ten feet to the left of me. i heard them fighting. i said, hey, guys. you guys don't need to fight. and one of them looked at me and began cursing at me, saying some derogatory comments. and i turned away as i mocked them. lightly mocked him and turned away. but it was too late because as i attempted to turn back from that young lady, i was pushed hard from behind in the snow. he attacks me. i try to defend myself and fall because i have one leg working and one in a cast. >> according to stoltz two other men joined his attacker and continued beating him. >> this continues for several minutes down the street. we end up being, what eventually ends up being about 50 yards away from the bar. i just covered my face and they kept kicking me in the head and kicking me all over.
>> how injured are you? >> i'm covered with blood. i mean, i have tons of cuts in my head. that's where they mainly got me, was my head. >> the fight eventually broke up and stoltz's friends walk him back to their condo. but after they went to bed, stoltz realized that among other things he was missing his cell phone. >> not only was my smart phone gone. i had a really expensive smart phone from work with proprietary data, also my other cell phone and my wallet. i was pretty much without everything. and i panicked. >> stoltz says he decided to go back and look for his missing possessions, but he didn't want to risk another beating. >> but as i hobbled my way out i saw a block of kitchen knives on the counter. and i grabbed a random knife. it happened to be a breadknife. i didn't think about it. i just thought about the fact that i didn't want to get beat up again. and i was so afraid for what happened. so i started walking down the street and hobbling around and i think i see my smartphone. so i get excited, but i hear somebody say something over to my right. he says you shouldn't have come back.
right then, i'm like, oh no. this is the guy that wouldn't leave me alone the first time. immediately i showed him the knife. i had my hand out. i said twice that i just want to get my things, i have a knife, leave me alone. and he completely ignored it and started attacking me and i reacted by swinging my arms back at him. i didn't know where i hit him, if i cut him or anything, but i do know eventually falling and i feel something snap in my hand. and he's continuously swinging on me. and finally he just gets up and a few moments later and walks away. i am panicking at this point, so i get up and i hobble the opposite direction and i hear someone holler at me from behind, hey, stop, we're calling the police, come back. i turn around and that's when it hits me. i have a knife handle in my hand with no blade and i'm covered in blood. and i started crying. what ended up happening is as he was cut on his cheek on both
sides and his neck, which cut his carotid artery. >> both stoltz and his victim, brian lusk, a 31-year-old new father, were transported from the scene by ambulance. but after stoltz was treated he was taken to the city jail and booked. >> and i thought to myself, well, why? i'm going to tell them what happened, you know? this is just a bad situation. i don't need legal representation. i don't have anything to hide. i kept saying that on the video. i'm just going to tell you what happened. so i told them what occurred. and it got to the point toward at the end of the conversation i said, you know, is he okay? what happened? and he said, no, he's not. he passed away and this is a homicide investigation. coming up, the parents of wesley stoltz's victim share their side of the story. >> you don't expect somebody to come back with a serrated kitchen knife and decapitate you. you just don't.
while we were shooting our "extended stay" series at the limon correctional facility in colorado, inmate wesley stoltz gave his can account of the fatal events that unfolded in his three-year prison sentence for criminally negligent homicide. >> that's been two years now. i'm 31 years now. i've aged a lot. it's the most stressful and horrific thing in my life. but strangely enough, i believe everything happens for a reason, and i've learned a lot about myself and about what burden i must carry for the rest of my life. >> doing "lockup," we follow people's stories inside prison. inmates and staff alike. rarely do we get to encounter the victims of the inmates. we found out the parents of
wesley's victim wanted to talk to us. so we took the opportunity to do so. >> here they are. both him and dusty. both brian and dusty at the airplane park. >> late in the evening of super bowl sunday 2007, bill and cherie lusk were sound asleep when they got the call every parent dreads. >> it was denver medical center calling. they said our son had been assaulted and we needed to come immediately to the hospital. >> i think when i decided that it had to have been real bad is when they ushered us right into a room and a social worker came in. and the emergency physician came in and told us that our son had been almost decapitated. >> i interviewed the lusks only knowing wesley's account of what had happened that night to brian lusk. and when mr. lusk described his
son's body having almost been decapitated, i was shocked. >> so we go to the icu, and, of course, it's black in the icu except for this one bright room, and they're doing cpr on him. and it was our son. >> he loved soccer until he found out about snowboarding. >> and he liked basketball, too. >> while stoltz claims their son, brian, started the fight, the lusks stand by a very different account. >> it came out during the trial, the bouncer on the stand said out of nowhere stoltz sucker punched our son brian, and then there was a fight. and i know that brian was losing the fight and that one of his friends, that was a little guy, jumped on stoltz's back and stoltz just shook him off and brian told him to stay out of it, and i guess brian got the best of stoltz then. >> but both sides agree that
later on stoltz returned to the scene of the knife with a serrated kitchen knife. >> how similar is that knife from the son that killed your son? >> we think it's close from seeing the blade broken off at the trial. >> given the fact stoltz returned to the scene rather than call police, the lusks believe he armed himself not out of fear but revenge. >> i don't think my son did anything wrong that night. i really don't. and i can see when he came back why brian went over here and said, why are you back? i mean, i would have. brian didn't know how to fight against a knife. he was just a kid. and there was no way. and he just slaughtered him. >> i should have called the police. >> why didn't you call the police? >> never crossed my mind. i was so obsessed with getting my things and going. i wanted out of the condominium. i wanted out of that environment.
i wanted to go home. i wanted to go back to california where i was comfortable. it was just -- it was like it was just a big mistake to come out to colorado. that's how i felt at the moment. >> along with the profound pain caused by stoltz's doomed decision to return to the bar that night, he shares one other thing in common with the lusks. disappointment over the jury verdict. >> they gave us criminally negligent homicide, which is the lowest they could have given us. the minute i heard that, i told bill, i said, i got to leave. i got to leave. i made it outside the door before i broke down. i mean, i was just -- it was like they murdered my son all over again by giving us that kind of verdict. >> at sentencing i still had the illusion that i was innocent,
and that this was a gross deviation. this was an impulsive mistake. for that moment when you have your lawyers telling you that what you did was justified, you tend to believe it. you want to hold onto the fact that you're not going to be a stigmatized convicted felon for the rest of your life. >> you feel so alone sometimes. like even though you might be in a room with a bunch of people, but i don't -- i think sherri has thought this some, too, but we -- it's like we're the only ones in this room that their son was murdered. and even at sentencing they asked him if he wanted to apologize, and he said, why? it wouldn't do any good. >> in sentencing there was a lot of things i wanted to say to the family, but i was sick. i could barely talk. and they spent two hours just reading and just saying everything bad you could say. and could you really blame them? i mean, their son's gone, and the more i wanted to turn and apologize to them, i felt, what's the point? it's not going to help. >> wesley took our lives away from us as we knew them. our lives have totally changed. and we'll never be all right.
>> with the wesley stoltz case, we had this rare opportunity to interview both the offender and the victim's family. and it had a profound impact on me. it was heartbreaking. it was a difficult interview. i think we all left afterwards and we were all a little bit down. no matter what transpired that night, obviously there was a fight, but at the end of the day, this young man who was the father of a child and a beloved son of two people was killed. what would you say now, wesley? >> i never wanted to hurt him. i didn't have vengeful thoughts. i didn't want to throw my life away. i didn't need to settle a score or payback. nothing like that. if there was anything i could do to fix it, i'm more than willing to do. this is the first thing in my life i can't, i don't know how to fix
due to mature subject matter, viewer discretion is advised. msnbc takes you behind the walls of america's most notorious prisons into a world of chaos and danger. now, the scenes you've never seen. "lockup: raw." ♪ daddy, are you coming home >> the lucky ones find ways to cope with it. >> you have to find something to fill up whatever void you have. >> others are haunted by it. >> it still bothers me a whole lot even today. talking about it's got me shaking already. >> but for some, the past could return wita