Skip to main content

tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  August 4, 2017 12:00am-1:00am PDT

12:00 am
risk assessment would be different if the president ever visited new york. he has not returned to his home since he was inaugurated. his wife and son stayed behind initially but have now russia is fake news. the special counsel investigating trump and the russians, impanel as grand jury in washington, d.c. >> believe me, there is no collusion. russia is fine. >> what we're learning about where this investigation is headed. >> this russia thing with trump and russia is a made-up story. >> the new bipartisan push to prevent the president from firing robert mueller.
12:01 am
>> any effort to go after mueller could be the beginning of the end of the trump presidency. >> and how the president is responding tonight. >> mr. president, are you considering firing robert mueller? >> good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. we now have multiple reports that indicate significant forward movement in special counsel robert mueller's criminal investigation into potential collusion between trump campaign and russia. first to the "wall street journal" which says that he has impaneled a grand jury in washington, d.c. nbc news has not independently confirmed that report. before mueller took over in may, prosecutors had been using a grand in west virginia which lawmakers said was focused on two men.
12:02 am
paul manafort, trump's former campaign cheryl, and michael flynn, the president's national security adviser. both of whom are key figures in the investigation. it suggests the probe may well be expanding. a sign there is a long term large scale series of prosecutions being contemplated and being sued by the special counsel. the president's attorney responded on fox news. >> did you have any advance notice this was coming? >> no. this is not a surprise. the impanelling of a grand jury and situations like this, when you have an investigation, is how they move forward. it is really very much the standard operating procedure when you have a situation like this. with respect to the impanelling of the grand jury, we have no reason to believe the president is under investigation. >> this is just the start. cnn reporting that mueller has seized on trump and his associates' financial ties to russia as one of the most fertile news for moving the probe forward.
12:03 am
>> the program targeted illegal foreign bribery in the jarlt's criminal division. cnn reporting the potentially explosive news investigators turned up intercepted communications appearing to show efforts by russian operatives to coordinate with trump associates on damaging hillary clinton's election prospects. including specific references to paul manafort. meanwhile, vox reporting that james comey is likely the only one to be questioned with regard to the probe. as ten or more officials likely to be questioned. what you'll have is a powerful obstruction case. you've have the former director, the are general counsel, and then others one right after the other. this has never again word of trump against comey. this is more like the federal bureau of investigation versus donald trump. leaving the white house en route
12:04 am
to his rally in west virginia, the president did not respond to shouted questions about whether he planned to fire mueller. >> mr. president, are you considering firing robert mueller? >> will you hold a news conference again? >> are you going to fire mueller? >> a short time ago dur his campaign style speech to enthusiastic supporters in west virginia, the president again denied any ties to russia. >> the russia story is a total fabrication. it is just an excuse for the greatest loss in the history of american politics. that's all it is. most people know, there were no russians in our campaign. there never were. we didn't win because of russia. we won because of you. that i can tell you. >> joining me now, matthew, your
12:05 am
reaction to the news. >> it is obvious this is a serious investigation that is expanding. they said it won't go away soon. it takes it and makes it very real. it is one thing to know robert mueller is conducting this investigation. it is another thing to have the grand jury asked about things they said in meetings, things they said in e-mails and put in legal jeopardy if they don't tell truth. that makes it much more real. do you anticipate we'll see people from the white house, the associates of the campaign, being summoned before the grand jury? that we'll get reports about who is showing up and why? >> i think without a doubt, we
12:06 am
will. i think the timing is still up in the air. it seems he's just convened this grand jury. usually what you'll do is use the grand jury to subpoena documents. you want every document available so you can ask them about the documents. we don't know what he has already. we only know the i had the bit that's managed to leak out. i think it is inevitable before the investigation is over, you will see jared kushner go to the grand jury, paul manafort, people who no longer work for the president and white house staffers. >> there's a geographic element, in so far as there was a grand jury in alexandria, virginia, reportedly focused on flynn. it has moved to washington, d.c. is there any significance in that move to your mind? >> i think there is. they're all blocks away from that white house. but it is a key investigation into what he's looking at. under federal law, you have to charge crimes in the venue in which they occurred. all the obstruction of justice crimes that happened after the campaign, they happened once donald trump became president.
12:07 am
which they occurred. they're all blocks away from that white house. but it is a key investigation into what he's looking at. under federal law, you have to charge crimes in the venue in which they occurred. all the obstruction of justice crimes that happened after the campaign, they happened once donald trump became president. his conversation with james comey asking him to back off. the michael flynn investigation happened in the white house. his calls to mike rogers, his call to dan coates, asking them to intervene. it all took place in the white house. it is the appropriate venue to look at that and bring charges down road. >> what do you think about the possibility of mueller being terminated in some way, that the president has already fired the fbi director, he made noises about getting rid of jeff sessions last week. he seems to have backed off
12:08 am
that. how safe do you think mueller is? >> i think the president and bob mueller are on a collision course. it is hard to say which will blink first. whether mueller will complete this investigation and wrap it up with charges? every time this investigation has gotten closer to the president in the past, he's lashed out by trying to intervene to stop it by firing someone or publicly trying to undermine the justice department with. with these reports, it is up to democrats and especially republicans to say to the president, that would be a red line you cannot cross and make it clear now before he crosses it. >> all right. thank you for your time. joining me, the former attorney, the u.s. attorney and assistant watergate prosecutor. what does a grand jury do in this context? >> a grand jury is not like a trial jury. a grand jury assists the
12:09 am
prosecutor in actually conducting the investigation. it is an investigative body. what it does, it enables the prosecutor, in this case, the special counsel, former director mueller to bring evidence before the grand jury. if i got to the point where the facts were developed to bring an indictment, the grand jury would approve the indictment. what it does is it gives them a venue as matt was just describing, to request documents and call witnesses who the might be testified under oath. the fact these individuals, it is different when they're on the media, on tv, a big difference being in a closed session secret proceeding grand jury under oath. >> you worked on the watergate prosecution and there was a grand jury from the beginning of
12:10 am
that. there was the burglary. what role did they play? >> oh, everyone of them. if we didn't have a grand jury, we wouldn't be able to scene that people. we wouldn't be able to subpoena documents. it put it in a context, serving secret. it is not like senate committee where people are testifying in public. it is all done in secret. it doesn't mean the person who is a witness. >> why is that important? one is to protect innocent people. protect people when there is no finding of probable cause which is what a grand jury does. and it is important to protect the integrity of an investigation. you want to be able to go ahead and investigate without people knowing what everybody else is
12:11 am
saying so they can put their stories together. you've seen donald trump put the stories of his son-in-law and his son together in a very surgical way. the grand jury will break through that story. they'll be able to subpoena other evidence, other computers, other e-mails. they'll be able to follow the e-mails string, the documents that were supposedly brought by ron goldstone. they'll be able to follow rubles going way back to when donald trump was first doing miss universe contest. all of these are come together and all of these dots out there to be connected is what they can do in private so that the public won't see this. but it gives the prosecutor the ability to dig into this without people being able to get their stories together and being able to come up with a story that makes sense, that obstructs the whole proceeding. >> the documents, and the records here. there's a reporting that investigators want phone records related to trump jr. we identified on this program and some others have identified
12:12 am
that if you read that e-mail chain, it does appear that there was a phone call to broketer meeting. that e-mail, as the tip of the iceberg indicates, there seems to be a lot of records throughout that would be very helpful to investigators if they can get their hands on them. >> sure. if some ways, this is a criminal standard prosecution. and they have a lot of tools at their disposal under the federal statutes to request documents concerning communications records, other types of records, records that might exist. and the prosecutors will be able to request that.
12:13 am
the other issue with respect to people being able to testify secretly had to the grand jury, it is an important point west saw earlier this sull where current government officials were testifying before congress. we could see particularly with coats and rogers, that they had discomfort describing communications that they had with the president about whether he asked them to try to shut down the investigation or try to say something publicly that would undercut the investigation. so if current government that's the are called before the grand jury to be, to testify with respect to any potential obstruction charge, it will be under oath and it won't be in a public setting so they will answer truthfully in that setting. >> okay instruction, the vox reporting, in is that ways it seems the obstruction case is
12:14 am
further along because it happened so quickly and so publicly. >> and trump has admitted most of it. the interpretation and whether it is something you can even bring charges against a president for. >> trump has already admitted to it. he admitted to the russian ambassador that the reason he got rid of james comey was because of russia. i have never seen anyone in a criminal investigation make such wide admissions on intent. the whole issue is whether or not the perpetrator had the corrupt intent. did he intend to stop the investigation? he's admitted in it spades. >> then this deep constitutional question. back when ken starr under the independent counsel statute was pursuing president clinton at that time. about whether there's a judicial remedy for presidential
12:15 am
wrongdoing through regular courts like an indictment. would that be something this grand jury would or would not do? >> the question would be whether the prosecutors thought they could bring that type of evidence before the grand jury. it does seem that special counsel has brought on some people who have expertise. people who used to boring in the office of legal counsel who might be in a position to analyze that issue for him. and help him determine whether or not those are appropriate matters to bring before the grand jury. i do think that, if the reporting is correct, that the grand jury is here in washington, d.c. i do think the location is relevant. the grand jury is supposed to be impaneled in a location where the offense likely took place. so that does speak to, what are the particular issues or offense that's took place here in
12:16 am
washington that would justify bringing the grand jury together here. it wouldn't just be a matter of convenience. >> thank you both for joining me. >> next, as the investigation continues to accelerate, a new priority emerging. protecting robert mueller. preventing the president from firing the special counsel. >> they will have to decide. they can continue their opposition with the russian hopes or they can serve the interests of the american people. these days families want to be connected 24/7.
12:17 am
12:18 am
that's why at comcast we're continuing to make our services more reliable than ever. like technology that can update itself. an advanced fiber-network infrustructure. new, more reliable equipment for your home. and a new culture built around customer service. it all adds up to our most reliable network ever. one that keeps you connected to what matters most. obsession with the russian hoax, or they can serve the interests of the american people. >> about this continuing
12:19 am
independence. we're serious about being held to a higher standard. and the department of justice is unique among cabinet positions. on the one hand, the president nol natures the fbi director or the a.g. just after they're confirmed, i want they will to be
12:20 am
independent. >> this is co-sponsored that would block the president from firing the special counsel without a judge's approval. when it is investigating the president, as is now the case. adam schif tweeting, if true that mueller has impaneled a grand jury, all the more important that congress protect his independence. joining me, a member of the senate judiciary committee. how concerned are you about the president attempting to fire robert mueller as the investigation takes off? >> i'm very concerned. the ominous threats president has made about firing jeff sessions as a means to fire bob mueller and his direct threats about calling it a hoax and a witch hunt, attacking the integrity of the team, an excellent team of 16 prosecutors that bob mueller has assembled. that ideas i have joined with lindsey graham as a co-sponsor. and stop that firing fits done without good cause. and i am also heartened by the impanelment of a grand jury. remember, chris, that a grand jury is an arm of the court. it is not the just a tool of the prosecutor. it actually has a legal status under the court's authority. so a threat against bob mueller
12:21 am
is less weighty. because the grand jury has degree of permanency and protection that bob mueller might not have. this legislation is very important because it indicates the level of outrage and opposition that would follow any attempt by donald trump to fire bob mueller. >> something significant happened today. the senate went into the a five-week recess if i'm not mistaken. they flocked what is called a pro forma session. protection that bob mueller might not have. this legislation is very important because it indicates the level of outrage and opposition that would follow any attempt by donald trump to fire bob mueller. >> something significant happened today. the senate went into the a five-week recess if i'm not mistaken. they flocked what is called a pro forma session.
12:22 am
to essentially make sure that there is, for constitutional purposes, not a recess that the president can appoint someone, were the president to say fire jeff sessions. how significant and important is that step? >> what's really significant is not only that step but i think very strong determination that there be no recess appointment in the attorney general position. and i think again, the firestorm and potential constitutional crisis that would greet this step by donald trump is reflected in that in step by lisa murkowski, senator from alaska. so i think it is important. but what is even more important is the sense, a clear sense, and it is tangible that there is going to be strong opposition. both sides of the aisle to this
12:23 am
kind of abusive use of power. and obviously, to go back to your first question, the threat is even more ominous. clearly, the special counsel is following the money. he is going after financial deals. those financial dealings are extremely relevant because the russian play book is to enlist or engage foreign officials and create monetary incentives for they will to cooperate. that is exactly what may have happened here. bob mueller knows it. he will follow the money. >> there is reporting about those money trails and significant pushback from the white house on that. the president in an interview with "the new york times" saying a pursuit of financial deals prior to his campaign would be out of bounds. i would violate the portfolio of the special counsel. jay sekulow repeating that same notion that he would object and the lawyers for the president would object to following the trail of say, real estate deals from six or seven years ago. what is your response? >> they have no legal power and no moral case to try to constrain a grand jury. the grand jury has an authorize that is part of the rule of law. and as a prosecutor, as the
12:24 am
united states attorney for connecticut for four and a half years, i've seen grand juries often develop their own questions and want to know about financial transactions. they are composed of ordinary citizens who often have very good questions. the other reason this grand jury will be important to the special counsel is that we are dealing here with a potential indictment of the highest ranking official in the united states of america. so bob mueller is going to want to know how the average citizen reacts to this evidence. i will be a very good sign for him of what a jury, a regular jury at trial might react to. we're a bit ahead of ourselves.
12:25 am
there's no conclusive proof of any crime here. but very importantly, that grand jury can ask its own questions. they're going to draw lines is completely inappropriate. >> so i want to you clarify. you say we're dealing with this, you mean you believe it is a possibility for an indictment of the president of the united states. >> it is certainly a possibility. there is a law of authority that there cannot be an indictment of the president. when i say authority, no real legal case law. but they're pretty good legal arguments against it. still, if he out of office, there could be indictments of lower level officials and members of his family. >> all right. thank you. >> ahead, president trump blasts congress the day after he signed the bill, blaming america for strained relations with russia. hours before the breaking
12:26 am
12:27 am
hours before the breaking developments, the day began with a statement from president trump about russia. the president of the united states once again went out of his way to publicly side with russia over american institutions. president trump who yesterday released both assigning statement and a press statement criticized the sanctions on russia, iran and north korea, took twitter again to today again complain about the thing he had just signed. and to go one step further with criticism. our relationship with russia is at an all time and very dangerous low. you can thank congress who can't even give us h care.
12:28 am
senator john mccain tweeting, our relationship with russia is at a dangerous low. you can thank putin for attacking our democracy and invading neighbors and threatening our allies. >> i think our strained relationship with russia began in 1917. and senator scott saying, i think he signed it, didn't he? the bottom line is that russia is to blame for the relations with russia deteriorating. it was south carolina's other senator who asked the question, i think any fair minded person is forced to ask when it comes to president trump and miss behavior with regard to trump. that's next. e your teeth whiter than mine? your strips are slippy... ...mine are grippy. crest whitestrips stay in place. crest whitestrips professional effects... ...lock in the whitening for a whiter smile. these aren't going anywhere. these are. crest... ...healthy, beautiful smiles for life.
12:29 am
12:30 am
12:31 am
12:32 am
the bottom line is that our relationship with russia is defined by russia and our allies. this otherwise means you're disconnected from the threat russia presents. and president trump's problem with russia is most americans are skrafg their heads, why does he see russia so differently than the congress? putin has done something no american politician could ever hope to do, unite the congress. why does president trump have a different view of russia? that will keep people asking questions. >> joining me now, former congressman elizabeth, from the house are judiciary committee, and josh earnest, former white house press secretary. i want you to talk about the closest analog that president obama face in the his term, the iran deal.
12:33 am
and it was with a nation, the u.s. doesn't have diplomatic relations with or a nation that has taken actions contrary to u.s. interests. and a huge opposition in congress to a lot of parts of it. it struck me as interesting to compare the way the president talked about that deal and the way this president talks about it. >> i think it is an entirely metaphor or doeks draw here. primarily because much of our discussions with congress as we are trying to bring it to the negotiating table and complete our negotiations work iran were about what role congress would have in lifting sanctions. so it is not unique for there to be a dispute between the executive branch and the legislative branch how most effectively to implement sanctions and when to relieve them. and there's always a expense congress may be back seat driving when it comes to foreign policy. in this case, while we may have had our differences with republicans and even some democrats when it dime executing
12:34 am
the randle deal, there is to one who doubted in a very fundamental way, president obama's commitment to pursuing america's interests alone. when it comes to trump's dealings with russia, there is a concern that he frankly may have conflict of interest. >> the statement of the president this morning, at the core of this, if he were to acknowledge the fact that russia did this fairly brazen thing, then you can have a conversation that started with this saying yes, they did this. but to blame the u.s. congress for relations with russia is a pretty remarkable thing for the u.s. president to say given had a drush during election. >> right. given had a russia did and given his reaction to it. russia interfered with our democracy, wanted to interfere west don't even really know the full extent of that. for the president not to acknowledge that and not to say, okay, something terrible happened here.
12:35 am
we're going to stop it from happening. we're going to find out how it really sgorkd we're going to assure the safety of our election process. he's done none of those things. instead, he's said it's a are home, a witch hunt and by the way, congress, you're responsible if the russians don't like us. he has to acknowledge the reality of what happened. he has to accept the findings of our intelligence agencies. they are unanimous. nobody has disputed it. and he has to come up with a way to protect our democracy the question is why? >> you were there for watergate. one of the things happened with watergate, the investigation starts going in different directions. at the end, we have this picture of the nixon white house. it shows all sorts of wrongdoing in a million different directions.
12:36 am
there is violation of what little campaign law there was. slush funds being paid. break-ins. >> illegal wiretaps. >> i guess my question is, what is your feeling about the belief on the part of president and others that this is a witch hunt and it will sprawl out endlessly? >> i think he is completely wrong. you have to ask yourself, why is this president fighting the reality so hard? we understand he's worried about people not believing he was validly elected. of course he was validly elected as far as we know at this point. but we have to frequent u.s. and he's not ready to go there. >> the president goes to west virginia, a state he won by 42 points shflt he stand for re-election in 2020, he will win once again. the last time, doing a rally in youngstownest basically ignored it. tonight he went right at i saying this is a distraction. democrats are selling this because they don't have the message. what do you make of him changing his tactic about how he's speaking about this?
12:37 am
>> he is clearly in a position the with this. the sound bite that you pulled from senator graham is a pretty good indication. this is no longer a situation in which it is part sandal who's are disputing trump's handling of the russia situation. there are republican who's are genuinely concerned. we want to be in a position where we can count on the person who is entrusted with representing the united states at the negotiating table, to have our best interests at heart. we want to count on that person on not being conflicted on something to disclose. it is a troubling thing. even setting aside my own preference in the outcome of the this is no longer a situation in which it is part sandal who's are disputing trump's handling of the russia situation. there are republican who's are genuinely concerned. we want to be in a position where we can count on the person
12:38 am
who is entrusted with representing the united states at the negotiating table, to have our best interests at heart. we want to count on that person on not being conflicted on something to disclose. it is a troubling thing. even setting aside my own preference in the outcome of the previous election, it is troubling that we can't put faith in the president of the united states to make sure that he is looking out for our interests when it comes to interacting with our adversaries. do you see signs of congress moving, to reassert itself as co-equal to the president he? >> yes. they're talking about how to control the president and how to reassert power. so better to do night careful, constitutional way. i think congress is very
12:39 am
disturbed at his failure to recognize the reality of the russian interference, his failure with the investigations. this is completely wrong for a president and his tikes mueller could be seen as obstruction of justice. an abuse of power for a president to do that. let the investigation go forward. >> thank you both. >> thank you. still to come, the president's secret service moves out of their base at trump tower because of a dispute with the coil. and a political conversion in thing one, thing two. next.
12:40 am
12:41 am
12:42 am
thing one tonight, ahead of the president's trip to west virginia, the party sat on a tweet mocking, they refuse to stop millions in contracts to companies who cheated west virginia taxpayers.
12:43 am
sad. very trumpian tweet but president trump himself expressed a very different view of the so-called low energy governor tonight. >> i would like to invite my good friend and your governor, jim justice, up to the stage to share this news with all of you. jim, come on up. come on up, jim. look at this guy. >> why was the west virginia republican party mocking the president's good friend? that's thing two in 60 seconds.
12:44 am
democratic west virginia governor jim justice have a few things in common. both are billionaires and after tonight both men will be members of the same political party. >> today, i tell you as west virginians, i can't help you anymore being a democrat governor. so tomorrow, i will be my registration to republican.
12:45 am
>> that came just hours after the west virginia republican party attacked governor justice, calling him low energy and sad. the executive director of the party explained in a statement this afternoon, jim justice's past differences with our party and our party's platform came while he was a democrat. so they eagerly mocked him a few hours ago but now they have a friend in jim. >> having big jim as republican is such an honor. i will tell you. such an honor. fantastic man, a fantastic guy, and thank you, jim, very much. all over the nation, they're sgaching they really appreciate that.
12:46 am
12:47 am
another story breaking tonight, the "washington post" reporting the secret service out of its trump tower command post
12:48 am
because apparently they can't afford it. noting that early july, they were relocated to a trailer on the sidewalk more than 50 floors below. a trump organization spokeswoman told the paper, it would be, quote, more cost effective and logistically better to do it elsewhere. two sticking points were the price and other conditions of the lease. basically the secret service charged with protecting the president and his family have to work from a trailer on the sidewalk because president trump's business wants to squeeze more money from the service. the story is just the latest example of agencies and individuals around donald trump struggling to deal with the chaos and uncertainty that's becoming his hallmark. all this as the steady string. like the grand jury robert mueller has impaneled. how congress deals with the president's once they return from the august recess, next.
12:49 am
crohn's disease. you're more than just a bathroom disease. you're a life of unpredictable symptoms. crohn's, you've tried to own us. but now it's our turn to take control with stelara® stelara® works differently for adults with moderately to severely active crohn's disease. studies showed relief and remission, with dosing every 8 weeks. stelara® may lower the ability of your immune system to fight infections and may increase your risk of infections and cancer. some serious infections require hospitalization.
12:50 am
before treatment, get tested for tuberculosis. before or during treatment, always tell your doctor if you think you have an infection or have flu-like symptoms or sores, have had cancer, or develop any new skin growths, or if anyone in your house needs or recently had a vaccine. alert your doctor of new or worsening problems, including headaches, seizures, confusion, and vision problems. these may be signs of a rare, potentially fatal brain condition. some serious allergic reactions can occur. do not take stelara® if you are allergic to any of its ingredients. we're fed up with your unpredictability. remission can start with stelara®. talk to your doctor today. janssen wants to help you explore cost support options for stelara®.
12:51 am
12:52 am
he has the confidence of many, many people here on both sides of the aisle. and again on behalf of the american people, we have to get answers and we have to get answers that will be accepted. they won't be dismissed as partisan. they won't be dismissed as being convenient. they have to be conclusive. and i think bob mueller can do that.
12:53 am
>> democrat senator jack reid from rhode island reacting to the breaking news that special counsel robert mueller has impanelled a grand jury panel. nbc news has not independently confirmed that report but if true, it would indicate that the federal probe may be accelerating into a crucial area. toe night many lawmakers are headed home for the five-week vacation where they may face new questions from their constituents about the russian probe. i'm joined by former republican congressman david jolly of florida. betsy, how do you characterize the mood on capitol hill as they head into the august recess? >> i think there's a sense of resignation. the reality is lawmakers have been dealing with russian questions for quite some time and the questions are only going to get more acute. the president being part of an investigation being run by a former fbi director is the new
12:54 am
normal. i spoke with former federal prosecutors who said they expect it to take mueller several more months to get this probe wrapped up. they expect it to be a month or two at least before he indicts anyone which means the russia questions are not going to go away and the lawmakers have to make peace with that. >> what do you think, david, you're going back for august recess, it's seven month as enno big legislation to show for it. >> it's an embarrassing time being a republican having to defend your record. when the senate left today, on the way out the door they handcuffed the president of the united states to make sure that the president could not make recess appointments while they're gone. the reason that's significant is senators know what the american people are feeling today.
12:55 am
today was a marker in history. rarely do you see it in the administration the subject of a grand jury investigation. while it is not a jury trial, a trial jury, it is one that can issue an indictment. and it is a form that we could see the president or people in his administration commit perjury, we could see the president's taxes unveiled and frankly it's a form for history. this is not a light matter that occurred today. senators know that and it will cast a cloud over the month of september when they have critical decision to make. >> betsy, i'm going to ask you to play mine reader but you have good soirss. i wonder what the thinking of the republican is on capitol hill about their own judgment of what might come out. you've got to imagine that's shifted and changed and grown as they've watched the evidence like other people watching this ort reporting it out and i would imagine that effects what they're going to have to do or not do vis-a-vis the president.
12:56 am
>> i think that's a fair assessment to make over the course of the last 12 months, 18 months even. a lot of republicans are having second thoughts about all sorts of conclusions when it comes to politics. over the course of the campaign, talking to republican operatives, members one one thing they would constantly bring up as an argument for donald trump is look at his kids, look at his family. he raised a good family. the fact that don jr. is now at the center of this russia investigation is something that just kind of undermines that entire argument. >> that's interesting. >> that case to be made for him. right. and if there's one thing that we know about grand juries is they bring out the dumbest sides of people. we know that grand jury is likely to have a lot of serious questions about the meeting that don jr. had with some russian op tiffs over the summer of 2016 and the fact that the president's son has now become a key part of this only raises i think broader concerns about what it means to be a trump.
12:57 am
>> david, do you imagine that republican lawmakers are going to be fielding questions about this? there's a sort of -- >> of course. >> the story i keep seeing that no one cares about the russia investigation which i don't think is true. although i think people care more about things that directly affect them on a day-to-day basis whether it's health care or jobs. what would you anticipate if you were going back to your district right now? >> there is polling that suggests that russia is not the most important issue to the american public but what is trust. you hit on a brilliant point with your last question, and it's this. united states republican senators do not do not see the president of the united states as a trusted partner. they might articulate similar policy perspectives, but that is now coincidence. he's shown she's willing to throw them under the bus and they don't know the next shoe to drop.
12:58 am
they might look at policy agendas and goals but sit not in coordination with this president nor will it be going forward when they get back in september. >> that's a point and it raises something i've noticed which is a difference in the way the senate and the house are behaving. senate republicans have been more independent, they're sort of separated themselves more from the president. i thought very notable that someone like tom tillis that doesn't have a reputation for being a maverick would introduce the legislation that the leadership is going to get a pro forma session. we haven't seen the same thing in the house. what do you make of that in. >> the reason for that is the difference in the nature of the two chambers of congress. in the senate the senators have a stronger sense of power. each individual senator has more influence, clout, much more leverage to sort of gum up the workings of washington than the
12:59 am
house do. and house members are constantly freaking out about their elections. and that affects the way that you think about law making and think about the white house. senators have more breathing room. they have sfrongstronger senses self. plenty of them aren't running for reelection and that makes it easier for them to buck their parties when they need to. >> betsy is right, it is power and independence but fundamentally it's courage. we're seeing courage among republican senators. we have not seen the courage among the republican house members. >> and paul ryan has a date with destiny because he has almost more than anyone else, high profile managed to deflect and evade. i don't want to talk about that. >> he's dancing with the devil. and he knows it and he made that decision to do so.
1:00 am
>> thank you both. that is all in for this evening. the rachel maddow show starts right now. "the 11th hour" starts right now. tonight, donald trump's new line on russia, telling a west virginia crowd this evening there were no russians in our campaign. the timing not coincidele coming hours after robert mueller broke the mus assembling a grand jury in washington, d.c. tonight what this means for donald trump, the people around him, his family, the future of the russia investigation, and perhaps the trump presidency itself as "the 11th hour" gets under way on a thursday night. and good evening once again from our nbc news headquarters here in new york. day 196 of the tmp