this is a republican who is saying that we're wanting to do this with a democratic governor, guys. i mean y'all talk about -- so -- >> 1.3 million people lose coverage in north carolina. >> wow, the congressman might want to start wishing they had booked their summer vacations in europe instead of heading back to their home districts. there's still 24 days left in august. it's going to be a long recess. watch this space. all right. that does it for us tonight. rachel will be back in this very chair tomorrow. right now, it is time for "the last word" with the great lawrence o'donnell. good evening, sir lawrence. good evening, joy. i'm going to use some of that mark meadows video later in the show. as i was writing a little something about it, i was trying to think of how to describe him. i found myself saying, extreme conservative republican, but i'm not sure what conservative means anymore. >> yeah. >> he's extreme something. he's freedom caucus. he's like the guys on the right,

but i'm not sure that conservative -- i mean there are plenty of principled conservatives who say no, no, no, this stuff is not conservative. >> they're just boo bait. they're getting booed every time they walk on stage. >> those videos are irresistible, and we'll be showing some of them in the next hour. thank you, joy. well, the person president trump has to fear most could be one of the people he spends almost every day with. we identified him as the most dangerous man in the trump white house a few months ago. and that man is, of course, mike pence. >> a republican shadow campaign is taking shape with mike pence maybe ready to step in should the president decide not to run in 2020. >> mr. pence outside pac has actually raised more in donations than the president's pac has. >> the donors are worried that donald trump with his approval rating so low, that it will be very difficult for him to get reelected. >> there are a number of

republicans now who feel totally free to block him, speak out against him. they don't fear him at all. >> referring to our colleagues across the aisle as losers or clowns is just not the direction to go. i'll stand up every time to the president when he's doing things that i don't think he should be doing. >> the republicans are trying to stave off the civil war that's going to come in their party. >> he's the most selfish president who has ever occupied the oval office. >> hell, yes. a lot of republicans would much rather be doing business with mike pence. the president of the united states attacked "the new york times" today, a, because it's monday and, b, because "the new york times" said that mike pence, vice president mike pence, is making plans to run for president in 2020 if donald trump doesn't run for re-election. that story in the sunday times got this reaction from president trump today. how much longer will the failing "new york times" with its big

losses and massive unfunded liability and nonexistent sources remain in business? the story that donald trump claims has nonexistent sources does have some unnamed sources and some named sources. one of the named sources explained why potential republican candidates are looking at 2020 when donald trump is supposed to be running for re-election. that source said, quote, they see weakness in this president, and that source is, of course, senator john mccain. there is probably no potential republican candidate for president who sees more weakness in this president than mike pence does on a daily basis. mike pence sees it up close. mike pence sees how weak this president is when the door is closed and there are no cameras present. mike pence surely knew long before we did just how weak this president was on the phone with the president of mexico in january, begging the president of mexico to stop saying that mexico would not pay for the trump wall. mike pence knows that donald

trump was too weak to ask or demand that the president of mexico pay for the wall, and so he was just begging, begging the president of mexico to stop talking about it publicly. and he is so weak that he failed in that begging. the president of mexico issued a statement about that phone call that emphasized that mexico would not pay for the wall. mike pence sees the president's weakness up close, and he sees the president's incompetence up close, and he sees his ignorance up close. mike pence knows that the nickname for the president in the west wing is now the two-minute man, referring to the president's attention span. mike pence has seen the president's laziness up close. mike pence and no one in america -- no one in american has ever seen a president who cares less about doing the work of the presidencimeypresidency. mike pence as seen all that. every vice president is a heart

beat away from the presidency, but mike pence knows he may be a plea bargain away from the presidency. mike pence knows he may be our next gerald ford because the president in effect plea bargains with the impeachment process and resigns. of course mike pence is running for president. of course he is. of course mike pence is planning to run for president in the next presidential campaign because he knows ou erratic and impulsive donald trump is and that donald trump might just be the next incumbent president to quit the way that lyndon johnson did in 1968. lyndon johnson began his re-election year appearing to be invulnerable, on his way to a landslide re-election. then came a surprise challenge from inside his party, first from senator eugene mccarthy, and then senator robert kennedy, and lyndon johnson lost the will to fight for the presidential nomination within his own party. on march 31st, 1968, lyndon

johnson shocked the country and the world when he said this. >> i shall not seek, and i will not accept the nomination of my party for another term at your president. >> that moment was absolutely unthinkable until it happened. donald trump not running for re-election would not be surprising, and thanks to lyndon johnson, it would not be unprecedented. ohio governor john kasich is one republican who is thinking of running for president even if donald trump runs for re-election. and by 2020 there could be a very big opening for john kasich in trump country. donald trump came in a close second in the ohio caucuses in 2016. in 2020, he might come in a distant second in the iowa caucuses in john kasich runs against trump on jobs in iowa. wright county, iowa, voted for donald trump two to one over

hillary clinton, but some trump voters there are now very disappointed in the president because he actually fulfilled one of his campaign promises. >> i'm going to withdraw the united states from the trans-pacific partnership. >> donald trump actually delivered on that promise on his first week in office. one farmer in wright county, iowa, who voted for donald trump told politico, i was disappoint the trump kind of broadly wiped out tpp before there was even a discussion. iowa was one of the many agricultural states that was poised to win huge economic gains and jobs if the united states ratified the trans-pacific partnership. but that's not the story trump and other politicians told about the tpp. >> the trans-pacific partnership is another disaster, done and pushed by special interests, who

want to rape our country, just a continuing rape of our country. that's what it is, too. it's a harsh word. it's a rape of our country. this is done by wealthy people that want to take advantage of us. >> nothing has hurt american farmers more than canceling the trans-pacific partnership. but american farmers do not have the trumpian indecency to call that rape. that is the only time donald trump spoke out about against rape on the campaign trail. of course, he didn't actually mean rape. bernie sanders, whose position on tpp was identical to trump's never called it rape. that is the uniquely trumpian gift to the t.pp debate. a hairstylist in iowa told politico, if the farmers have a bad year, we all have a bad year. if the farmers have a good year, we all have a good year. bad years are coming to american agriculture because of the

cancellation of tpp. american agriculture long ago began producing more food than america can consume, profit for american farmers is almost entirely dependent on exports to foreign countries. so when president trump made noises early in his administration about using executive actions to try to pull out of nafta, iowa corn farmers panicked since their profit mar yin is dependent on exports to mexico. donald trump won the electoral college by whiching the votes of some people who did not want him to do some of the things that he promised to do. and that is one of the reasons he is the weakest president in the history of polling at this point in his presidency. it's because so many of his voters did not vote for all of the trump agenda. they were registering a protest vote, many of them, and their next protest vote might be against donald trump not just for policy positions, but for the chaos he has created in government and the panel

criminality. deputy attorney general rod rosenstein, who appointed the special prosecutor, said this about the investigation. >> in the course of his investigation of the issues that he is looking at, if he finds evidence of a crime, can he look at that? >> well, chris, if he finds evidence of a crime that's within the scope of what director mueller and i have agreed is the appropriate scope of his investigation, then he can. if it's something outside that scope, he needs to come to the acting attorney general, at this time me, for permission to expand his investigation. >> joining us now, jeremy bash, former chief of staff at the cia, also with us, jill wine-banks. jill, people who have been studying the rosenstein response for 24 hours now. what did you make of that? >> i think it really reaffirms the breadth of the power that mr. mueller has and his

jurisdiction includes not just collusion between the trump administration or the trump campaign and the russian government, but anything that stems from that. and that can also be looking at his intent or the motive for cooperation. and that means looking at finances, his financial records, his tax returns to see what the connection is finally between russia and mr. trump. >> jeremy bash, it's that last part where rosenstein says, if it's something that's outside the scope, he, meaning mueller, needs to come to the acting attorney general, at this time me, for permission to expand his investigation. does that sound like a limiting element here to you? >> not so much because i think there is so much that is within the scope as jill referenced. if you read the original rosenstein memo, it says that mueller would have jurisdiction to prosecute any matters that arrive. that is a very broad term.

i think that also includes basically anything -- any instance in which the russian federation would have leverage over the presidency, over the united states. so that could include the whole gamut of financial transactions that have tied the trump organization to russia for many years. >> jill, that phrasing "any matters that arise from the investigation," that's right there in rosenstein's authorization of the special prosecutor. and i have been taking that to mean that if in this investigation the special prosecutor trips over something that has nothing to do with russia, that took place that has to do with some deal made for a golf course in the united states, that if there's a crime involved, he can investigate and prosecute that crime, and he does haven't to go back to rosenstein to get a broadened authority. what is your interpretation of that? >> it's a tricky question, and i think it's possible that you're correct. but it's also possible that he

would have to go back and ask permission. but i think it would be very, very hard for mr. rosenstein to say no to any expansion, particularly because of the cover letter he wrote with the order. he makes it very clear that the reason he's appointing a special prosecutor is to have independence from the normal chain of command in the department of justice. and that would apply to any potential crime involving the trump family or the president or anyone in his campaign. so it would be very hard having had that as the background for mr. rosenstein to say no if, for example, as happened in the clinton administration, where you had a real estate deal, and then it suddenly turned into somebody let them know there might be a blue dress. and he expanded the investigation. i think you can't say no if someone comes forward to the

trusted special prosecutor and admits some kind of criminal act. i don't think the attorney general or the acting attorney general or anyone at the department of justice can say no to that. >> let's listen to something else that rosenstein was asked about, and that is what is and is not a presidential order when it comes to the justice department? let's listen to this. >> and the president, because he can order the justice department to do things, when he says here's what prosecutors should be doing, they should be looking at hillary clinton, do you view that as an order? >> no, chris. i view what the president says publicly as something he said publicly. if the president wants to giffords to us in the department, he does that privately, and then if we have any feedback, we provide it to him. i can tell you the president has n nt directed us to investigate people. >> that last part of rosenstein going out of his way to say this isn't happening, this thing that

the president wants us to do about hillary clinton, that i found pretty extraordinary. >> i did as well, lawrence, but i also found extraordinary that the president has directed the justice department to engage in a war on leaks. in some ways if you think about it, lawrence, this is sort of a back door to allow sessions to reverse his recusal. what do i mean by that? sessions is, of course, recused from the russia investigation. but if he is in charge of investigating leaks about the russia investigation, it provides an opportunity for him to crack down on anybody trying to interfere with the investigation. >> and, jill, i want to -- this is a political question, but i want to go back to your memory of the watergate era. the idea that this president is going to serve out his term now because we have the watergate model and because we have the nixon resignation model, it is alive not just in our imaginations but in the rhythms of the story, the possibility that donald trump would not serve out his term. and so it seems completely

unsurprising on the basis of the state of the investigation and the special prosecutor that republicans wouldn't be thinking, what am i going to do in the next presidential election if donald trump either isn't running or is forced to drop out because of the investigation, which is the most likely impediment at this point to a re-election campaign. >> i think you're absolutely right, and it didn't take very long when you think about it. we were appointed in may of 1973, and in august of '74, just a little over a year later, the president resigned based on the evidence that we had uncovered. and so if we can look forward and say a year from now, the mueller investigation may produce the same results, it's going to be well before the next election, and this rumor about mike pence could be true, that he would become the president

without ever having to run. and so everybody may be looking to who is going to run in the next election in 2020. >> jill wine-banks, thank you very much for joining us. jeremy, please stick around for another segment. really appreciate it. coming up, the president's new chief of staff could not stop the president from a flood of twitter activity this morning when he was watching tv as usual. and republicans are promising tax cuts, but at town halls, they are still getting questions about health care. and tonight, a question about the trump wall that was not answered the way donald trump wants it answered by his republican members of congress. . . but if that's not enough, we have 7500 allys looking out for one thing, you. call in the next ten minutes to save on... and if that's not enough, we'll look after your every dollar. put down the phone. and if that's not enough, we'll look after your every cent. grab your wallet. access denied.

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and now the two-minute man. in a report from "the washington post," even president trump's national security adviser, h.r. mcmaster, can't get the president to focus. after attending multiple meetings to craft foreign policy over the spring and summer, "the washington post" reports trump had little time for in-depth briefings on afghanistan's history. even a single page of bullet points on the country seem to tax the president's attention span on the subject, said senior white house officials. i call the president the two-minute man, said one trump confidant. the president has patience for a

half-page. president trump had been warned against the legal complexities of a military ban against transgender enenlistees. white house lawyers and defense department lawyers tried to slow him down, tried to explain the details of this, needed time, they said, to work out the legal complexities of it, to see if it was possible. but then, according to politico, the trump administration had no plan in place, but trump told others they would have to get in gear if he announced the ban first, one white house adviser, who spoke to trump said. he also said the announcement would stop the lawyers from arguing with him anymore. and so the president simply announced it on twitter. joining us now is lushen truss cot, a west point graduate. he's now a columnist for salon. and back with us, jeremy bash. lushen, with your experience with the military and the way generals operate, this president

has now sur rounded himself wit generals. is that going to improve the workings of the trump presidency? >> i don't think so. i think we saw the evidence today. i think in the pecking order of trump's generals, general kelly has now moved down to number three. the evidence being that he couldn't control trump tweeting. and i think number two is mcmaster, but mcmaster can't control trump's attention span, and that leaves mattis over there at the pentagon, who is the last man standing sort of. he's the one i guess that we should look to, to moderate trump on korea or anything else that's going on in the world. >> jeremy, we saw a binunch of angry tweets this morning against senator blumenthal. donald trump saw him on television talking about the special prosecutor investigation and immediately started firing off these things. we now have reports indicating that general kelly was with the president this morning in new

jersey, so was either near him when this was going on and either could not control it or saw the tweets and said, okay, we're going to let him fire off this group of tweets. >> well, the staff has to get very creative when they're thinking about influencing this president. i've heard a lot of discussion about showing pictures to the president of things like nuclear weapons during intelligence briefings. they need to show him pictures so he'll understand what we're talking about. i heard some analysts advising the white house that they should create a video of the consequences of a military strike in north korea so he can see it like if it were on cable news, spilling forth what all the consequences would be. only the president would understand a video. i've also thought ironically the only way we're ever going to wedge this president away from vladimir putin would be to use our influence with people at "time" magazine and somehow try to name putin "time" man of the year. >> lucian, the idea that the

military approach is the right approach for everything, which seems to be donald trump's notion that, i know, the military can solve it. so you put general kelly in charge of the white house after having put general kelly in charge of homeland security. maybe there will be another general in charge of that soon. what is our experience with that as a country? >> well, the experience is not very good, and the experience this time i don't think is going to be very good either. i think if everybody thinks that trump's generals are the adults in the room, we're doomed because you have to look at these guys with this in mind. their entire careers were made out of two wars that we've lost. we didn't win the war in iraq, and we didn't win the war in afghanistan. so i don't know why he thinks that you can bring generals around him, surround himself with generals who really haven't

got a very good record over the last 10 or 15 years. >> and, jeremy, this is the only presidential candidate in recent memory who ran and when talking about generals and when talking about military matters, claimed to be smarter than the generals or to know who the good generals were and who the bad generals were without ever mentioning names, of course. and here he is getting reports now in meetings with generals over what to do in afghanistan, and president trump gets so angry at them that he just starts yelling in frustration about it all. >> yeah. i'm not sure i agree with the last statement that the generals haven't done a very good job. i think that's too much of an overstatement. but i do think it is important to have national security professionals around this president. there was an article today also in "the washington post" about how the president likes his cia director to toe political lines. that's dangerous for the central intelligence agency, for the professional military to take a political stance with the

commander in chief. >> and lucian truscott, what do you see unfolding here over time. given what we've been able to observe about donald trump's personality, there is a, you could say, a military frame of mind, a military style. at least those of us on the outside feel that there is. and donald trump seems to share none of that in any way, none of the discipline, none of some of the admirable qualities that the military does instill. the generals involved and now working with president trump at the cabinet level and now general kelly as chief of staff, they don't have any real experience in their military lives trying to control a person like this, right? i mean this kind of person would have been donald trumped out of the military very quickly. >> well, there's that. i think you're exactly right about that, lawrence. but the real disconnect here is that what generals know about and what they're trained to do at places like west point, the

naval academy, the air force academy, is understand the exercise of power in the absence of money. you can't give a guy a raise in the military for charging a machine gun nest. you can't tell somebody, i'll play you extra if you fly this night mission. trump only understands money. the very idea that he would think that the answer to all of his problems lies with these guys that are so completely different from him, have a completely different background in what they do and how they've lived their lives, it's just foolish. it's foolhardy. it's really unbelievable, i think, because he stacked the cabinet with as many billionaires as he could to get in there. but then look at these important positions that he turned over to generals, and these people are people that he just doesn't understand at all. >> thank you both for joining us tonight. appreciate it. >> thank you.

coming up, senator jeff flake slammed his party yesterday on "meet the press" for not doing enough, not standing up to donald trump when he lied about president obama's birth certificate. but what did jeff flake do? hmm? is that the rest of our food? what? no. how come you have cheese in your beard? because switching to geico could save you 15% or more on car insurance. oh! ok. geico. because saving 15% or more on car insurance is always a great answer. whoa! gross!

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and now for tonight's episode of "better late than never" starring republican senator jeff flake. six years late. >> i wish that we as a party would have stood up, for example, when the birtherism thing was going on. a lot of people did stand up,

but not enough. >> did you do enough? >> that was particularly ugly. >> i'm just curious. >> on that, i think i did. >> oh, no, no, no, no, you did not. you definitely did not do enough. the first time we can find jeff flake saying something negative about donald trump's lies about barack obama's birth was in june of last year after donald trump had already locked up the republican presidential nomination. and what jeff flake said then was not exactly a condemnation. he said, quote, he has said he's an unapologetic birther. i don't know how anybody seriously knseriou seriousseriou seriously any right-thinking person can believe that can ard. but i think he knows a lot of republicans believe it, and he's willing to pander to them. if republicans as a party had stood up against donald trump's lies about president obama's birth six years ago, they could

have stopped trumpism in its tracks, but they didn't, and jeff flake didn't. here's donald trump six years ago, april 7th, 2011. >> he may not have been born in this country, and i'll tell you what. three weeks ago i thought he was born in this country. right now i have some real doubts. i have people actually been studying with it, and they cannot believe what they're finding. >> you have people now down there searching, you mean in hawaii? >> absolutely, and they cannot believe what they're finding. >> i said donald trump was lying about that that day, six years ago. jeff flake said nothing. but yesterday jeff flake said he thought he did enough in taking a stance against that lie. the first time donald trump opened his mouth about president obama's birth, i said he was lying. jeff flake said nothing. the news media as a whole never figured out how to handle donald trump's lying about president obama's birth in interviews, and donald trump knew they would never figure out how to handle his lying because none of them were accustomed to dealing with

an outright pathological liar talking about the president of the united states on television in interviews. so every trump interviewer failed whenever the subject of president obama's birth came up. for six years, they failed, every one of them. and then last year, donald trump said president obama was apparently born in the united states, and he didn't want to talk about it anymore. and the news media for the most part followed his orders and did not ask him about it anymore. and the final great attempt -- and i do mean great attempt -- to corner donald trump on this was admirably launched by lester holt in the first trump versus clinton presidential debate. lester holt went at it repeatedly. he went at it several times before eventually being forced to move on because of the debate format to other subjects. lester holt's final attempt to get donald trump to admit his lie about president obama and admit that it was a lie with a

racist appeal. in that final attempt, donald trump closed the book on the subject this way. >> we're talking about racial healing in this segment. what do you say to americans -- >> well, it was very -- i say nothing. i say nothing because i was able to get him to produce it. he should have produced it a long time before. i say nothing. >> i say nothing. well, jeff flake said nothing. he said nothing too. he said nothing that night about donald trump's racist lie. it would have been much more important for jeff flake to say something that night, on debate night, than it was yesterday now that donald trump is the most unpopular first-year president in the history of polling. it takes far less political courage to say that now, but this is not the where were you when we needed you segment, it is the better late than never segment. so this is one of those moments where graciousness should overrule other feelings. so it's time to say thank you, jeff flake, because better late

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hdid you get that email i sente wyou...before you wake up. ... when life keeps you up... zzzquil helps you fall asleep in less than 20 minutes. because sleep is a beautiful thing. during rallies when the chants "lock her up," you know,

we shouldn't be the party for jailing your political opponents, and anybody at that rally, anybody at those rallies ought to stand up and say that's inappropriate. we shouldn't be doing that. >> joining our better late than never discussion, jonathan capehart, an msnbc contributor. also with us, david jolly, former republican congressman from florida. jonathan, jeff flake, it's better late than never, i guess. he's opposed to the locker up chants. good to know. and he thinks the attacks on president obama's birth was something that maybe republicans should have stood in the way of. >> i think you raised a very good point in your excellent summation before we came back. you know, in his new book, devil's bargain, josh green writes that the lesson that trump learned from that whole racist birther lie that he perpetuated for years -- >> for five years before the

campaign. >> right. the thing that he learned, the number one lesson that he learned from that was that there was no price to pay for saying something so outrageous, so racist about the sitting president of the united states. and as a result, we saw him go out and actually run for president and slander his fellow opponents, lyin' ted, low energy jeb, crooked hillary, little marco. so, you know, i'm actually very happy that senator flake has found it within himself to be very bold and very vocal about what the party needs to do now that trump is president and he is violating every convention, every norm, everything that we used to hold dear about american political discussion, now that he's trashed all of that. but what it's going to require for jeff flake's word to have any meaning is he's going to have to do all of this when there is no book tour, and he's

going to have to convince senior members of the republican party to follow him in saying the exact same thing. >> well, his senior senator from arizona, john mccain, in our opening segment, he said, they see weakness in this president. david jolly, he was talking about the potential republican candidates for president who might run in the next election. >> sure. >> whether donald trump runs or not. >> sure. look, we know this president is historically weak, but jonathan's exactly right. what trump proved with birtherism is there was no price to pay for spouting that type of rhetoric. that is why it was one of the very dark chapters in republican history, not just modern history, but all of republican history. we're living it today, though, when you see gingrich take on mueller, a law and order man, when you see the likes of laura ingraham take on mcmaster, a three-star, purple heart, silver star, active duty soldier. but there's something else going on with donald trump, and it's this. if bill clinton felt your pain,

donald trump felt your anger. but bill clinton took that economic populism to bring people together, to bring the country together, to build empowerment policies for people. donald trump turned it into a cultural populism that divided the country, and it was reflected in the very beginnings of birtherism that he was the architect of. >> jonathan, one of the things we're seeing in this pence for president campaign -- and he is running. i mean it might not be in the next one, but it will be in the one after that. he's a more disciplined person, and running for president does require a certain discipline. at least it had until the last campaign. >> right. >> so he's working in a very disciplined way on fund-raising, actually raising more money than donald trump is raising. and it would make sense that he do that even if it was in support of the trump/pence ticket. >> right. discipline is the exact right word about mike pence. he comes from the world of politics unlike the boss, unlike

president trump. mike pence came from the house. he was governor of indiana. he actually believes in the conservatism that he talked about. and so he is very steadied, very measured, and i think in a lot of ways, a lot more dangerous for people, particularly people at home. i think for people who are concerned about the united states' standing in the world and whether, you know, we're a tweet away from bombing north korea, you don't have that worry with mike pence. you have that worry with mike pence at home. and so if you know that the guy who is at the top of the ticket is a little unstable and that you might be called in to jump in, what do you do if you are a conservative from indiana who comes from the world of politics and has always been about being ready? you get ready. >> david, what's your reaction to that, the possibility of mike pence moving out and going for the top position? >> look, you nailed it at the very top of the hour. he's running.

there's no question. he's the vice president. he's still young. he's either running in '20 or '24. but let's not overlook the fact that mike pence is tainted by all things donald trump. every time he stands up and says it's his high honor to introduce the president of the united states, that means he is supporting the president of the united states. i will say this. there's going to be a lot more people than mike pence running for president. you're going to see a lot of republican politicians at university of iowa football games this fall and next fall. no question about it. >> quick break. when we come back, a republican town hall tonight showed that the president's next big problem with congress is going to be the wall that donald trump wants congress to pay for instead of mexico. to prove to you that the better choice for him is aleve. he's agreed to give it up. ok, but i have 30 acres to cover by sundown. we'll be with him all day as he goes back to taking tylenol. yeah, i was ok, but after lunch my knee started hurting again so... more pills.

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the trump wall is coming back to haunt donald trump. tonight republican congressman mark meadows held a town hall in north carolina where he was asked whether congress is going to pay for donald trump's wall on the southern border. >> so i believe that we have to build a wall in portion -- hold on. hold on. all right. hold on. we believe that there will be a wall in some areas. there will be a virtual fence in some areas. it will really be about securing our southern border. i believe that honestly that if there's any amount of monies that's allocated to it this

year, it would probably be a little over $2 billion, which honestly doesn't build a wall. it doesn't build a wall. i mean it's a 12 to $20 billion fee. $20 billion fee. as we look at that -- so as -- well, mexico i don't think is paying for it. >> a virtual fence. how much does a virtual fence cost? we learned donald trump never believed what he was saying about mexico paying for the wall on the southern border. leaders on capitol hill are worried it could shut down the government next month when congress has a pass a spending bill. no one sees trump's wall getting much more than a symbolic nod which is sure to anger trump and could lead to a shutdown.

sources close to trump say he will go crazy when he realizes congress has no plans to pay for it. what do you mean will? will go crazy? we are back in a moment. at panera, a salad is so much more than one thing. more than one flavor, or texture, or color. a good clean salad is so much more than green. and with panera catering, more for your event. panera. food as it should be.

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wibuilding a wall from sea shining sea is the most -- the

least effective way to do border security. >> many republicans in texas don't think the border wall is a great idea. we may be headed for a government shutdown over the trump wall which would in one level be shut down over congress's favor to pay for the wall. is it a really a shutdown over mexico's failure? >> yes. if you follow president trump who said mexico you better believe is going to bay for the wall. we know congress is not going to pay for the wall and even worse, lawrence, it's not just probably going to lead to a government shutdown, it's probably going to lead to -- and i hope this doesn't happen, the first ever crashing through the debt

ceiling of the united states. that is infin nitly more dangerous than shoutiutting dowe government. crashing through the debt ceiling where the united states dollar is the global currency, you not only destroy our financial system you destroy the global financial system. >> are mitch mcconnel going to allow mexico to shut down the american government over the trump wall? >> well, i think it would be trump's shortsightedness to profit that he could do that. there were several of us in congress that proposed a bill to require operational control of our border, south, north, east and west. it was not good enough for the hard liners who wanted a physical wall. lawrence, we are going to see something interesting that we have not seen in the eight years

of barack obama. it requires democrats and republicans to pass it. there is usually more democrats than republicans. they always voted no but now they have to accept it. obama always accepted those budgets. what will trump do when congress gives him a bill? that is the only bill that will pass the congress. >> what do democrats do when they presented with saving paul ryan and mitch mcconnel by joining something that can pass? >> well, look. it depends what that bill is. if it is something where it is about keeping the government open, protecting the american people and safeguarding the full faith and credit of the united states in a completely separate bill i think democrats will put country over idealology and party. i think when it comes to the

president we have seen he doesn't care less about any registration. all you to do is say you signed this and you win. you pulled this and he'll sign it. he just wants to be able to have the ceremony, have everyone around and applaud. if that's what it takes, fine. >> lawrence, earlier this year the president actually swallowed that budget bill as a clean up bill from last year that didn't get done. it was remarkable that he signed it and it was a failure of every promise he had made to the american people. democrats and republicans will come together. trump will have to sign it. he will shut down the government and blow down the debt. >> he is the chairman of the finance committee. issued a statement -- didn't

issue a statement and he said that he is sick of health care. his exact words were we are not going back to health care. as far as i'm concerned they shot their wad on health care. i'm sick of it. jonathan can't keep a straight face. >> wow. >> go ahead. your reaction. jonathan will compose himself and we'll get his reaction. >> the fact is he has to because it is still the same issue. they are going to have to. what shach speaking to is there is no responsible agenda on the bill and no way to get tax reform to get done. he is denying responsibility on that one. >> i will pull rank here and say that i know him and i know that he does not know the meaning of all of the words in his

statement, okay? >> okay. fine. >> he was saying it from the most innocent place. >> sure. and in reaction to the senator i will say this. if what he means is we are not going to go for full scale obamacare repeal that i get. to make sure it works for all americans i think he could get that. >> it sounds like he is sick of even that. thank you both for joining us. that is tonight's last word. the 11th hour is next. >> it's been 200 days as he spent much of the day tweeting about the fake news media. all this while the president is on what he is calling a working vacation and there's work to do. new polling out tonight shows nearly three quarters of the american people don't trust most of what they hear from the white house. tonight we look